The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

The math is still more complicated than that when you consider the fact that the same character is used though out the set in a certain MU and a stage can't be chosen more than twice.

 

[Cassio]

lol, I knew there was a reason Delux was my favorite in this thread.

It really is impossible to make these types of statements, either way, when the interaction between US/EU/*** is roughly once a year. I guess we will find out more at Apex with how the different countries competition stacks up with one another..

Here is the thing: It isn't about what happens just one time. MK has lost in the past, but then those MK's always look at why they lost and by the next tournament have a counter. We don't get to see how the game would evolve with just one tournament, all we see is how three different ways of playing the game go against each other on their first go.

Actually agree with AZ here. Although it was silly to say this while trying to make this comparison with orion.

The biggest advantage MK has is adaptability: he has an answer for every possible weakness or counter, the issue is about how long it takes for that adaption to take place.

Dont disagree, but Id add theres multiple characters like this. The difference between them and MK is MK has a large network of good and dedicated players able to test and succeed and move past mistakes much quicker. Thats the real key to MKs adaptability.

I meant the online community when I said community. If you can discuss it in person why can't you discuss it online? (Or why don't you?)

Because ultimately we take into account who our stake holders are. If you aren't affected by the Unity Ruleset, you aren't a stake holder. We are people that have a finite amount of time. You can say what you want and I listen to your opinion just by reading it and responding to it, but why would I cater to you when in reality catering to you puts me at odds with a competing claim of people that actually attend my tournies or could attend my tournies?

So the decision and judgement of the communities opinion was based on the tournament attending community vs the community as a whole (tournament attending an not)?

 

[Seagull Joe]

oh thank you seagull. i got confused because i've seen a lot of sets of Malcolm vs koolaid and the mdva guys so i just assumed he was from mdva.

This statement confuses me cause Koolaid is NE and has never been to a Md/Va tourney outside of pound 4 as far as I know.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

all i know is that when jrugs said he moved to md/va the 2 people he wanted to play most when he moved there were you and koolaid so i assumed he meant koolaid lived there. **** it i don't care where anybody lives outside of texas because they're all to free

 

[Vinylic.]

Obviously, even fewer Player-Player-Stage combinations. Arguably less depth.

[COLLAPSE="Math"]# of MUs (looking only at characters) with MK legal. 38+37+36....+1 = (39*19) = 741 MUs
# of MUs (looking only at characters) with MK banned. 37+36......+1 = (38*18) + 19 = 703 MUs

MK & BRc legal : 741*13 = 9633 MUs
MK banned, BRc legal: 703*13 = 9139 MUs
MK legal, BRc banned: 741*11 = 8151 MUs
MK & BRc banned : 703*11 = 7733 MUs[/COLLAPSE]
Banning MK, Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise results in a 19.7% decrease in the # of MUs from when all 3 are legal.

Thanks for the reply.

I need to know these things alot. Because it looks like the math here is at some college level that I can't even understand.

 

[Orion*]

but then those MK's always look at why they lost and by the next tournament have a counter.

That's what everyone should be doing though

You want to make a big deal about Apex as if it will somehow undo 3 years of data in the US Brawl scene. Apex is still just one tournament in the scheme of things, and once EU/Japan go home, we still have all the issues that were there before.

yes and no. if japan and europe are capable fight USA MKs then I really think that there is clearly a problem w/ the US mindset. Ruleset changes need to be made regardless, and you're also ignoring 3 years of no MK problems in 2 other continents.

oh thank you seagull. i got confused because i've seen a lot of sets of Malcolm vs koolaid and the mdva guys so i just assumed he was from mdva.

you dont know regions at all jesus. ****ing texans

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

yes and no. if japan and europe are capable fight USA MKs then I really think that there is clearly a problem w/ the US mindset. Ruleset changes need to be made regardless, and you're also ignoring 3 years of no MK problems in 2 other continents.

This, and not just this–it's also like this in the USA too. MK doesn't win in the MW. As far as I know, MK doesn't do extraordinarily well in TX or FL (remove seibrik and dojo, and who's left for those states who does well for MK?). NE has more snakes than NY/NJ has MKs. SoCal I'm not 100% sure about. Nova Scotia never had an MK problem. Not sure about MD/VA. So yeah, pretty much just NY/NJ...

 

[Seagull Joe]

Md/Va's top players have always been Junebug , Logic , Lie //, Chu , Coney , Neo /, Meep , and Omni . A majority of our tourneys were won by Omni (), but currently Junebug () dominates our region. Omni still consistently gets top 3 whenever he attends a local though.

Everyone in our region has a except for Speed, Slik, Coney, and Takeover as far as PR'd members go for the last three seasons.

 

[infiniteV115]

Thanks for the reply.

I need to know these things alot. Because it looks like the math here is at some college level that I can't even understand.

[COLLAPSE="Explanation of math, it's quite simple. Nowhere near college level."]The reason it's 38+37+36...+1 is because MK has 38 MUs (the ditto, and against the other 37 characters). Then Diddy has the same, but 1 less or else we'd be counting MK:Diddy twice. So 38-1 = 37. This continues down the entire list.

If you meant the part where 38+37+36....+1 = 39*19, that was just me making the calculation easier on myself. There are 19 pairs of numbers from 1-38 that add up to 39 (1+38, 2+37, 3+36...19+20).[/COLLAPSE]

I'll ask this again because I didn't get a response last time. Why do we have a starter/cp/banned stagelist instead of just legal/banned?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right, so basically NY/NJ and MD/VA.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

[COLLAPSE="Explanation of math, it's quite simple. Nowhere near college level."]The reason it's 38+37+36...+1 is because MK has 38 MUs (the ditto, and against the other 37 characters). Then Diddy has the same, but 1 less or else we'd be counting MK:Diddy twice. So 38-1 = 37. This continues down the entire list.

If you meant the part where 38+37+36....+1 = 39*19, that was just me making the calculation easier on myself. There are 19 pairs of numbers from 1-38 that add up to 39 (1+38, 2+37, 3+36...19+20).[/COLLAPSE]

I'll ask this again because I didn't get a response last time. Why do we have a starter/cp/banned stagelist instead of just legal/banned?

Probably becaue people want to have a "fair" stage for both parties for game 1, though idk the extent because they have FD there and that is kind of polarizing towards chaingrabbers and projectile chars(Falco and Ice Climbers come to mind).

 

[Doc King]

Numbers to the rescue!

Alright, at the moment, we have 38 characters in the game(counting Zelda, Sheik, and Z-Sheik as separate entities), and 13 legal stages.

- With nothing removed, we have 38 * 38 * 13 = 18772 different possible matchups.
- Without MK, we have 37 characters and 13 stages, giving us a total of 37 * 37 * 13 = 17797, a loss of 975, or 5.19% of the total possible amount of matchups.
- Without Brinstar and RC, we have 38 characters and 11 stages, giving us a total of 38 * 38 * 11 = 15884, a loss of 2888, or 15.38% of the total possible amount of matchups.

We lose more matchups if we remove the stages.

Plus, keep in mind that, with MK legal, there were quite a few characters who were previously oppressed by his existence and could not shine as brightly as they could've in such a metagame. With MK banned, we may yet see an increase of variety in character choice in tournament play, simply due to the fact that more characters become viable without him being legal. It arguably increases depth on a different scale as well.

lol Jebus got math owned again.

For the ledge grab limit crap I think it should be removed because you can just edge hog so you can break invincible planking and other planking crap. Also if an opponent has to recover you don't wanna force them to not be able to grab the ledge because that sounds kind of stupid to just force someone to only be able to recover to the edge for a certain number of times.

Melee and SSB64 have characters with invincible planking crap (That can be breaked with an edge hog), but they don't have a ledge grab limit.

 

[Flayl]

All right, so basically NY/NJ and MD/VA.

I have a game, post a region's typical results list and have BPC increase his exceptions list until he stops doing it.

Typical North California results:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284846

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm too lazy to find a toronto tourney or I'd join in!

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

don't forget how many MK's so-cal and norcal have (i know my home regions if anything). until norcal started doing MK banned a while ago almost everyone on PR is either MK or seconds MK a lot. and do i even have to talk about so-cal?

also, in tx dojo is like the only MK left anyways, out here we gots variety out the ***. i mean ya dphat and infinity do really well with their MKs, but they have had solid seconds for a while now.

edit:

i got ninja'd about my own home region -.-

 

[Supreme Dirt]

My region might not have had a lot of MKs (our PR was about 30~% MK before we banned him) but there's a bit of a gap in our PR after a few spots.

Though that gap is quickly becoming smaller, which I very much like.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have a game, post a region's typical results list and have BPC increase his exceptions list until he stops doing it.

Typical North California results:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284846

I'm trying to restrict it to regions actually worth mentioning. I mean, sure, we could talk about the four corners region, or Nebraska, or North Dakota, but they're kind of irrelevant. Norcal... might be worth bringing up, might not be.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Clearly Europe is all that matters.

I mean it's the best region, right gaiz?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you realize that over half of the norcal PR was in the top 33 at genesis right? zex took 5th. trevonte and sky and sean and the others. **** man The Nanerz who literally retired from brawl like a year ago went there after practicing for like a week and was in the top 33. cross referance their PR with genesis 2 results and see for yourself (nanerz isn't on it anymore because he is retired and just goes to the odd national or so)

 

[infiniteV115]

Probably becaue people want to have a "fair" stage for both parties for game 1, though idk the extent because they have FD there and that is kind of polarizing towards chaingrabbers and projectile chars(Falco and Ice Climbers come to mind).

But that's what stage striking is for. I mean it's not like ICs vs G&W is going to end up on Brinstar/RC, unless the ICs player is really really bad at stage striking. And it's not like it's going to end up on FD either.

The problem I have with the current system is that it prevents G&W vs Wario going to Brinstar on game 1. If Brinstar has been deemed fit for competitive play (if it wasn't, it'd be banned), then why can't both parties go to their favourite stage? (Of course not only this situation but you get the idea)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Clearly Europe is all that matters.

I mean it's the best region, right gaiz?

Did I say that? No. What I'm saying is that what you guys are doing ("Clearly NY/NJ is the best region and all that matters") is equally stupid, especially with, you know, Japan kicking around.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But that's what stage striking is for. I mean it's not like ICs vs G&W is going to end up on Brinstar/RC, unless the ICs player is really really bad at stage striking. And it's not like it's going to end up on FD either.

The problem I have with the current system is that it prevents G&W vs Wario going to Brinstar on game 1. If Brinstar has been deemed fit for competitive play (if it wasn't, it'd be banned), then why can't both parties go to their favourite stage? (Of course not only this situation but you get the idea)

I fully agree with this. Why?

Theoretical ruleset where Norfair is legal (remember kids, once the URC gets stuff sorted out us in the SRC will be making huge deals over stages again) and Ganon vs. Link. It's Ganon's second best stage (after Pirate Ship, not going into my whole "rumble falls is Ganon's best stage stuff) and Link's best, why can't they agree to play on it? At CoT5, I played against Clai game 2 on Pirate Ship, in a Ganon ditto. Why can't we do this? Who exactly is allowing at the very least an agreement to a legal CP stage game 1 harming? Or an agreement to play on a banned stage?

Personally I think this is all part of the sudden "oh we want our tourneys to look professional" BS that is out to ruin this community. Heaven forbid people playing on the stream agree to play on, say, Summit.

 

[Steam]

I'm trying to restrict it to regions actually worth mentioning. I mean, sure, we could talk about the four corners region, or Nebraska, or North Dakota, but they're kind of irrelevant. Norcal... might be worth bringing up, might not be.

FOUR CORNERS VS. GERMANY CREWBATTLE LET'S GO

/caps

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ask the germans who have the cash to actually go to APEX. ;_;

 

[Steam]

or maybe I'll actually try to go to a tourney next time I'm in germany (that is if I ever go again)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm considering a big trip to Europe sometime in the next couple of years. If there's a tourney in Germany I'll show.

 

[AlphaZealot]

MW could easily be dominated by MK and has been at times, at least MW-E (OH/KY/MI). Judge was always taking 1st/2nd in MI, losing only to Lain, and picked up MK because IC's alone couldn't cut it. At this point Lain uses MK more than ICs, actually, and has been that way for about a 6 months to a year (actually he and Judge are both more or less retired at this point).

In Ohio, Shugo has been the best for the past 2 years, and while his Falco is typically what he is known for, he has frequently used pocket MK and also gone entirely MK at tournaments. OS use to be considered the best ROB and top 2-3 MW player in 2008 early 2009, and when he switched to MK he was still among the best, taking 2nd at the 2008 MWC championship (held in early 2009). OS then went and continued to place top 3 at every tournament using MK even though he barely used the character. Kel has been ranked top 3 in the OH PR for years now, using MK.

MW-W is a different story, where Kain basically dominates everyone with Wolf. Which I find to be awesome. They are also much more spread out and don't have tournaments as often as MW-E.

Anyways, for everyone saying its the ruleset: please don't forget MK has to win at least one game on what is typically considered a 'neutral' to win a set (and if they aren't winning that game, they are winning on their opponents CP + their own to win the set).

Personally I think this is all part of the sudden "oh we want our tourneys to look professional" BS that is out to ruin this community. Heaven forbid people playing on the stream agree to play on, say, Summit.

Yes, actually, that would be pretty terrible to see the finals of a tournament and suddenly they are playing on Summit or Hyrule or some other terrible stage (Summit would be the funniest because the big fish will surely get at least one swallow KO).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Why would that be terrible? And if both players know the stage odds are they won't die to the fish unless it's set up by one of the players.

 

[AlphaZealot]

*turns on television*
"In case you guys are wondering, these two teams in the World Cup Finals agreed to play on only half the soccer field!"

 

[DeLux]

MW-W is a different story, where Kain basically dominates everyone with Wolf. Which I find to be awesome. They are also much more spread out and don't have tournaments as often as MW-E.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Illi is considered MW-E still

MWW is dominated by Toon Link

 

[AlphaZealot]

This is true, I guess it's interesting because the MW is very spread out and we (OH) often do not see the IL guys except at bigger tournaments, usually the SiiS's (Hail Phael being an exception for smaller events).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anyways, for everyone saying its the ruleset: please don't forget MK has to win at least one game on what is typically considered a 'neutral' to win a set (and if they aren't winning that game, they are winning on their opponents CP + their own to win the set).

...You don't see the problem here? In a set between two fairly evenly matched players, one with MK and one with Diddy, Diddy has to win game one to stand a chance in the set. That's how ridiculous MK's counterpick is. Meanwhile if MK loses game one, he basically gets a freebie game two, and then has to deal with a stage which, while not "neutral", still isn't exactly horrible for him–something like SV or BF. MK basically has to win one less game than his opponent in a Bo3 set (in most matchups where he doesn't dominate, mind you) because he's so ridiculously good on his counterpicks. And the problem isn't the ruleset because "he still has to win on his opponent's counterpick or the starter"? That's terrible reasoning and you know it. You could argue like this about Fox on Temple Hyrule–don't forget that Fox has to win at least one game on what is typically considered a neutral or on his opponent's CP! That's poor reasoning right there.

Yes, actually, that would be pretty terrible to see the finals of a tournament and suddenly they are playing on Summit or Hyrule or some other terrible stage (Summit would be the funniest because the big fish will surely get at least one swallow KO).

This I agree with you on. Guys, can we at least pretend to be a professional gaming community? Like, instead of an overhyped casual club? Please? Every time I see a post like this, or anyone else who refuses to take us seriously because "we're just a video game", I remember EVO '08, MLG '10, and cry a little inside. Guys, if we want to be taken seriously by sponsors, by major gaming companies, by anyone, we have got to act serious. And to those who doubt the value of this, allow me to remind you that Gnes won 12,500 ****ING DOLLARS at one tournament last year.

 

[infiniteV115]

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not in favour of the Gentlemen's Rule.
And *sigh*, still no answer to my question. Perhaps I'll just talk to Tin about it.

 

[Judo777]

This, and not just this–it's also like this in the USA too. MK doesn't win in the MW. As far as I know, MK doesn't do extraordinarily well in TX or FL (remove seibrik and dojo, and who's left for those states who does well for MK?). NE has more snakes than NY/NJ has MKs. SoCal I'm not 100% sure about. Nova Scotia never had an MK problem. Not sure about MD/VA. So yeah, pretty much just NY/NJ...

Well your wrong lol. If you guys are this adamant with regions you are unaware of then I'm not sure how much you guys really know about Japan. MK has dominated the Midwest for quite a while now.

Since the beginning of the game MK has dominated the MW. Judge, Kel, OS, now Lain, Shugo have all been winning tournaments for forever in the MW. Outside of like Infern, YBM and Blue Rogue like MK's have been placing at the top for forever in the MW.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

This, and not just this–it's also like this in the USA too. MK doesn't win in the MW. As far as I know, MK doesn't do extraordinarily well in TX or FL (remove seibrik and dojo, and who's left for those states who does well for MK?). NE has more snakes than NY/NJ has MKs. SoCal I'm not 100% sure about. Nova Scotia never had an MK problem. Not sure about MD/VA. So yeah, pretty much just NY/NJ...

FL has Seibrik, Red Halberd, Xaltis, and Master Raven (All on our PR)

TX I admit doesn't have that many top level MKs...but that's just it...the MKs besides Dojo never place well in regionals while MKs from practically every other region do ("Insert Seibrik bashing").

I want Apex to be here so everybody can shut the **** up. I don't even know why I read this ****ing thread anymore >_>

 

[mikeHAZE]

MikeHaze hasn't won of placed particularly highly in anything worth mentioning of late;

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313119

 

[Ghostbone]

*turns on television*
"In case you guys are wondering, these two teams in the World Cup Finals agreed to play on only half the soccer field!"

Doesn't fit, at all.
More like "The two teams decided to play on team A's home field rather than team B's home field" or something.
Except no that doesn't even apply since all the fields are the same, so idk, terrible analogy on your part.

Oh and you all know nobody would pick Temple or Summit in GF unless they were splitting, it's an imaginary problem you're making up.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313119

I retract that statement and apologize for being a ****. ^_^

 

[AlphaZealot]

Doesn't fit, at all.
More like "The two teams decided to play on team A's home field rather than team B's home field" or something.
Except no that doesn't even apply since all the fields are the same, so idk, terrible analogy on your part.

Oh and you all know nobody would pick Temple or Summit in GF unless they were splitting, it's an imaginary problem you're making up.

The two soccer teams agreed to play on a not-legal field, just as the two smash players agreed to play on a not-legal field (stage). The analogy fits.

As for the imaginary problem: sorry, you can't have things both ways. Either gentlemans rule is always there or it is not, and you can't hypothetically cherry pick what you think is 'likely' versus 'not likely' just to make the gentlemans agreement seem not as radical as it really is.

 

[Tesh]

I retract that statement and apologize for being a ****. ^_^

this should be your sig.