[VIC] 3 Stock'd ~ Melbourne 2010 ~ Nope

[C~Dog]

Abhi: Yes, i know the neutrals benefit some characters more than others, which is why i'm trying to find a 5th stage that can be added alongside the usual 4 [SV, YI, FD, BF]. It's a choice between Lylat Cruise and Halberd. We just did Lylat, so for Feb its going to be Halberd as the 5th neutral, and after the people who went to both tourneys can voice their opinion and we'll decide which is better suited.

"JaVa": <3

 

[ViVa]

Wow another tourney so soon?

<3 Condog & Vermy

 

[Ledge_g2]

Ah, I didn't see it. My fault ><

That's a pretty poor argument, considering some characters (especially high tiers, I might add) do better on a lot of the neutrals. IC, Diddy, DDD, Falco etc. etc.

So really, the neutrals aren't really that neutral .-. Stages play a huge part. One such example, would be the Link/MK match up which is very much in MK's favour, but then becomes more even (like 60/40 or 55/65 MK's favour) on a stage like Norfair.

Don't you think you'd do a better job of seeding out the "weak" from the "strong" by making the match up more even?

Basically, I'm just trying to say that by making the stage picks only neutral, you're already giving certain characters a heavy/unfair advantage.

Am I making sense or am I just being stupid?

MK with CPs ***** alot of characters hard not to mention stage CPing against an MK is almost non effective. If we included CPs in pools it will increase the time it takes to finish pools also.

 

[Splice]

I thought the obvious thing to answer Abhis question about high tiers doing better on the starters would be obvious.

They are high tiers. They are better. Thus on a stage that doesnt change the match up much, they do better anyway. That's why they are high tiers... If we made the neutrals stages that evened up MU's for all the matches in pools(and thats not even a practical task, and impossible in most cases) then their would be no point in a tier list. Did i mention it would be stupid to have a different neutral for each pools MU? It's a mundane task to find the most MU-Evening stage to play on as a "neutral", a term which shouldn't be used for any of the stages in this game.

Plus, that point you made about a Link CPing Norfair, even if you wanted to CP, Norfair would be banned anyway. -__-

 

[Jei Jei]

Why does it say your location is Perth?

 

[Vlade]

Coz he lives with me

 

[Attila_]

halberd for neutral? lol sharking ****.

 

[C~Dog]

halberd for neutral? lol sharking ****.

Thank you for your incredibly unhelpful and uninformative opinion.

 

[Attila_]

i thought it was informative... basically mk can shark anyone who isnt snake really hard for the flying part of the match.

under the stage, uair uair til jumps are used up, ledge grab or nado. rinse and repeat. this be a forced strike for most characters in the game. its hard to call lylat neutral either, but i dont think its insta-win for anyone, so more neutral than halbred imo.

just my opinion anyway.

 

[Nixernator]

Thank you for your incredibly unhelpful and uninformative opinion.

hahahahaha man I love you sometimes Conor, that was **** mate Lol.

I think we should give up and just make Lylat a starter, I mean its not like its my favorite stage or anything I think we should just do it you know.
=P

The only real problem i'd see with Halberd is the advantages it gives to the top chars, like MK/Snake/Diddy (?). Aside from that its pretty legit I think.

 

[tibs7]

lol adv. it gives diddy? lololol more like disads bruzzz

 

[Nixernator]

Hahaha this is why I suck at smash bros. I was thinking flat stage with one platform would be easy to control with naners.

 

[Afropony]

Neutral stages are actually called starter stages

 

[tibs7]

lol exactly
halberd is a cp

 

[Ledge_g2]

I dont mind giving it a shot. I didnt even play on lylat with stage striking in brackets. so most probably halberd will be striked everytime like lylat was.

 

[C~Dog]

We feel that we need a five stage list for the Neutrals. So it's a decision between Lylat and Halberd. Lylat has been done, we want to give Halberd a chance. Seriously, how often has Halberd even been given a chance as a Neutral? Pretty much none as far as I can see.

We did Lylat, and now we're gonna do Halberd, and then we can compare the two and find the better of the two, if it do ya fine. If you don't want to play on Halberd, then strike it as most of you undoubtedly did with Lylat. What we're trying to do here is experiment, and find the best solution through actual tournament evidence as opposed to theory-crafting. Worst case scenario? Halberd tanks, and we use Lylat. Bool, the end.

Regardless, we're gonna end up with five Neutrals. One way or the other.

EDIT: Attila: no, u be trollin'. What you posted after was informative and helpful. Really, I don't see why you bothered posting the first comment when you could have saved time and posted your actual argument.

 

[Shaya]

Halberd, Delphino, and CASTLE SIEGE were all once neutrals before your time.

Neutrals that were played in many scenes, except Melbourne had like 20-odd neutrals in their stage list.

 

[Splice]

I'm the only one who benefits from Halberd and Lylat. At least in VIC. Oh yeah and that Haydino kid.

Everyone will strike them against me and each other... It's almost like when two people are striking, they know someone has to get rid off Lylat/Halberd, so it's sort of a mindgame to get the other person to get rid of it so you have 2 useful strikes on the other stages.

And i guess some people just ban it straight off the cuff with no attempt at strike mindgames, heh...

 

[C~Dog]

If it was a Neutral on a Stagelist with that many as Neutrals, its a moot point to compare that to the more conservative Starter list used nowadays.

 

[Vermy]

Edgegames:I really didn't wanna go out like a punk vs you in that match for brackets. I'd have been much happier if I hadn't SD'd and you'd won, either way GG.
Erin and Tiff: you guys have improved sooooo much. Keep it up and you'll be ****** in no time =)
Splice: two 9's on Zard makes me an unhappy Vermy.
Jei: <33333333 you were mine and Dean's kryptonite in doubles, and I was very surprised by your Snake. (Pun intended =p)
Tanman: Why PT. Why do you hurt me so bad. I still don't know why I chose Diddy for that 2nd pools match...
Bryan: Our Peach/Falco rivalry continues. 1-1 in pools, it is very much an even matchup, and my favourite in Brawl hands down =)
Jamie and Nick: good to see fresh blood, hope to see you guys again. =)
Dean: we should team again, now we know what each other's playstyle is like. =) points ftw!
Haydino: Was a little scared when you CP'd brinstar with a Gdub and Wario on your team, but I'm fairly comfortable with the stage. GGs.
Khoa: <333333 azn bros fo lyf.
[/B]Timic:[/B] we are the Gods of Super Street Fighter Brawl. Your Rufus is good, I wanna see more at CW. And your Dudley *****.
Alfa: Your Bowser gets me hard <3
Tibs: Ryu > Ken, Blanka > C.Viper
CDog: We rock. GJ.
J4: more PT wubs. <3
ViVa: Don't sweat it about pools brah, I had some tough luck and bad mistakes myself. =)
Vermy: Brawl like you Street Fight, don't SD and you'll do better.

ASSAULT ANNOUNCEMENT:
Crews for Don't Come are as follows (nothing final yet):
Crew 1:
Tanman (Captain)
Edgegames
Drixon Sypher
T-rex

Crew 2:
Vermy (Captain)
Ugly (unconfirmed attending)
Viva
Alfa
J4

Ugz may not be coming, but eh. If one of those in my crew wants to compete in a separate crew, go for it, we're one over so cheaaaaaa. <3

 

[Attila_]

EDIT: Attila: no, u be trollin'. What you posted after was informative and helpful. Really, I don't see why you bothered posting the first comment when you could have saved time and posted your actual argument.

nah you misunderstood. i thought everyone would know what i meant already. so i didnt bother with the explanation.

 

[Dekar289]

halberd should be cp

 

[luke_atyeo]

imo halberd gives too much advantage too characters with good vertical kill moves, its also like snakes best stage.
on the other hand lylat screws alot of characters over hard.

 

[abhishekh]

I thought the obvious thing to answer Abhis question about high tiers doing better on the starters would be obvious.

They are high tiers. They are better. Thus on a stage that doesnt change the match up much, they do better anyway. That's why they are high tiers... If we made the neutrals stages that evened up MU's for all the matches in pools(and thats not even a practical task, and impossible in most cases) then their would be no point in a tier list. Did i mention it would be stupid to have a different neutral for each pools MU? It's a mundane task to find the most MU-Evening stage to play on as a "neutral", a term which shouldn't be used for any of the stages in this game.

Plus, that point you made about a Link CPing Norfair, even if you wanted to CP, Norfair would be banned anyway. -__-

Link was just an example.

And I know it's near impossible to CP against MK, but there are other top tier characters.

i.e. diddy, does crappy on Brinstar as far as I know. IC isn't too flash on rainbow cruise.
Plus it makes matches more fun e.e (although, it seems like that this isn't exactly very high up there on the priority list)

And I don't exactly want a MU-Evening stage for neutrals for every single match up, can't it just be like it was before there were pools (I remember my first tourney, it was like elimination or something)? Where if you lose the first match in your pool match, you get to pick a stage?

I don't see how that will take very long.

@Jei

I know what the TO says, goes. I really did enjoy the tourney. But to be honest, if I'm going to go through a year of playing single matches on Battlefield, Smashsville and Final Destination (no one really plays lylat, and I strike Yoshi's Island/Lylat as much as possible because it sucks for lucas and I really don't like those stages much anyway)

And I really don't want to "main" a high tier character. Like anything higher than kirby. I play for fun, not to win and not for any other reason. I mean, 20 dollars prize money really isn't worth me not having fun, I'd get a job if that were the issue. Not that High-Tiers are exactly boring, they're just...Meh :/

Plus we can't all main high-tiers, brawl would become obscenely boring and simple. Much like if we were to only play on 3 stages...

---

I know there's probably a very good reason to why this is happening, but I can't see why we just can't have counterpicks

It's either because I'm very slow, or because I'm very stubborn and I'm somehow making myself not understand because of my own views on the matter.

.-.

By the way, I'm not saying that you shouldn't start off a match with a neutral (I really don't care), just that the person who lost should be able to choose a counterpick, kind of like with doubles but without 3 matches.

 

[Vermy]

Either way, pools stages will remain without CPs.

I didn't want to get started on a rant but here we go...

Your best interest in brackets is to win that first match. It forces your opponent to win that next match on their cp. You get the upper hand and for round 3 you get your cp.

You need to play on a neutral and win on it to be at your best advantage. So no CPs in pools. End of discussion.

Continue Halberd vs Lylat discussion, hearing some good criticism. =)

 

[T.REX]

Yeah i dont think halberd should be a neutral, the ceiling is too low.

gives characters with vertical KO moves too much of an advantage, and certain characters are just **** while the stage is airborne *coughMKcough*

delfino is more neutral IMO

edit: should also note that i dont think either halberd or delfino is worthy of being a neutral.

 

[Dekar289]

halberd and delfino both moves around and change too much and have too many opportunities for characters to get gimped or gimp themselves or get stuck underneath

cp at most for both kthx

 

[luke_atyeo]

Your best interest in brackets is to win that first match. It forces your opponent to win that next match on their cp. You get the upper hand and for round 3 you get your cp.

lol you think? good old captain obvious strikes again!

 

[abhishekh]

What about brinstar?

Doubt anyone's going to agree with that, but worth a try I guess.

Out of the Halberd and Lylat, I'd probably take Lylat.

 

[Afropony]

I think it's pretty obvious that Lylat is more of a started then Halberd, there are no lasers that attack you, no big bombs that attack you and no spiky claws that attack you... I'd also like to point out that Halberd is one of Metaknights worst stages.

 

[Shaya]

How is Halberd one of meta knight's worst stages besides its emphasis on vertical kills?

Ability to shark for half the match makes it one of mk's BETTER STAGES.

 

[Ledge_g2]

Yeah Shayas right Afro. aslong as the opponent isnt primarily killing from the top then its actually good for him.

 

[Haydino]

Lylat would seem to be a better (more neutral) starter. But its Brawl almost all of the first matches will be played on Smashville regardless of how many starters we have. This tourney just gone in every match where stage striking was used we ended up playing on SV with the exception of my match against Toshi's Diddy. If you TO's want 5 imo use Lylat

Also

I'd also like to point out that Halberd is one of Metaknights worst stages.

Regardless of whether or not its true was that meant to be for or against having Halberd as a starter?

 

[ViVa]

Lylat is easily a better starter than Halberd.

And also, I'm not picking up Luigi, I have no idea why I told people that I was. >_<

Mario all the way baby! <3

 

[_X_]

Sharking = God mode

 

[T.REX]

T-REX's low tier encouragement challenge #1! : anyone who can place top 3 in the next tournament using all ike will receive a new copy of fire emblem: radiant dawn from me

 

[Dekar289]

hey i downloaded that game... still yet to play it

 

[Splice]

-___-

Of teh cuff, I think Pony is talking about AGAINST GAW seeing as that is the only MU he ever gets to play EVERY GOD**** WEEK. Halberd is a noice CP for GaW when up against an MK, though everyone should duly note i suck on it.

Also, complaining about the bomb and the claw and the laser is pointless and not at all THE reason for the removal -rom-starter of a stage.

Halberd just benefits everyone with killing, coz of the low ceiling, lets people shark, and some get benefited by the second part of the stage which has lots of floor, and Lylat just kills you because it's a douche. It's much easier to avoid lasers and combo cannon claws than it is to recover back onto the stage you dropped off now that it's gonna from a freaking \ angle to a god**** / angle... When you're on the left side.... Someone please understand what i meant by that.

I'm not thinking about having good characteristics that dont benefit some characters to much or harm others, rather a stage with the lesser ability to completley **** all over the entire outcome of the match.

The turny-upsy-downy syndrome ledges on lylay can change a match, you just lose a stock coz it suddenly turned to one side. Halberd lets people shark you, and you have to AIRDODGE ONCE TO AVOID A CLAW ZOMG, but whilst that's annoying the chance of randomly losing a stock is imo much worse.
Seriously does anyone truly grasp how annoying that is? OH WAIT NEVERMIND EVERYONE MAINS MK SO I GUESS YOU DONT REALLY CARE.

Vote 1 Halberd.

P.S ~for the record i'd much rather cp you all on lylat cruise than halberd even the marths and especially the mks, so dont pull that "it's a great stage for GaW" ****~

 

[abhishekh]

I think it's pretty obvious that Lylat is more of a started then Halberd, there are no lasers that attack you, no big bombs that attack you and no spiky claws that attack you... I'd also like to point out that Halberd is one of Metaknights worst stages.

Does anyone actually ever get hit by the claw, laser or bomb?

I mean, unless you've been forced into any of these obstacles (which really wouldn't happen unless the other person got lucky, might be easier to do with the laser though, but you can DI out of that I think)...

It was a really long post, so no one's really going to read it, but whatever:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9354210&postcount=170

It's the part where he requotes himself.

I know you told me not to bring it up, but whatever. I really like the idea.

 

[C~Dog]

Does anyone actually ever get hit by the claw, laser or bomb?

Ally does.