Wario Time: Wario's Weekly Matchups. Week 9- Olimar

[Collective of Bears]

WARIO TIME
Wario's Weekly Matchup Thread​

Announcements

Thread History

4/26/09: Thread created, MK discussion started
6/14/09: I remember this is here and decide to screw the thread history bit.

Matchup Chart

Matchups

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Week 1: Meta Knight

50:50 (Neutral)

Matchup Discussion: Page 1-9

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Week 2: Snake

60:40 (Advantage)

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7331974

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Week 3: Falco

50:50 (Even)

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7358283#post7358283

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Week 4: King Dedede

40:60 (Disadvantage), 50:50 (Even), or 60:40 (Advantage), depending on stage.

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7462669#post7462669

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Week 5: Marth

40:60 (Disadvantage)

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7512378#post7512378

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Week 6: Mr. Game and Watch

50:50 (Even)

Matchup Disussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7573029#post7573029

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Week 7: Diddy Kong

60:40 (Advantage)

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7614037#post7614037

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Week 8: Pikachu

55:45 (Advantage)

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7687368#post7687368

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Week 9: Olimar

Matchup Under Discussion

Matchup Discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7781581#post7781581

 

[Collective of Bears]

Space if it's needed later.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Dunno, I might wanna put the summeries in my guide, but this'll be great for information. (would also cut your workload)

Fair is our enemy, and its very hard to get around. You could chuck the bike (risky) or Land in front of them and do a Fsmash while they are in mid jump, since they'll be imputing Fair command, then see what your doing and say "Oh crap". This wont work all the time after the first one, but it discourages them form Fair spaming, which makes the matchup favor Wario more.

Other then that, DI up when he hits you with the Dsmash to survive to ridiculous amounts, and Clap his glide attack.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[b0wzr!]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his F-tilt goes threw his Tornado.
I dunno much more about this match-up.
Not many MK's here.

 

[Gichan]

Metaknight busts mah balls all the time. I find that an MK can do like five moves in the air and one of them will hit.

So yeah, for me pivot grabs work pretty wellas they love to dash attack at very early percents, or dash grab. Random jabs agianst MKs are also reeaally good, which obviously leads to a grab or fsmash.

When you do get a grab, I find that if you can "tech" a dthrow, it'll make them more paranoid about dthrow. But fthrow is good if you get the lead, cause it is all about getting more percentage on them.

Airdodging mindgames is most effectice for MKs (which is ironic cause this is what I reeallyy need to work on) from what I see, airdodging the fairs or whatever.

ALSO, I've seen this, if you make the MK impatient enough to approach with nair, free waft.

Most importantly, don't get frustrated at his brokeness.

Now questions that people may answer which leads to how to fight an MK.
If I uair the glide, will it always go thorugh? Or should I just fair the glide?
If I grab the ledge while he is nearing the stage, does that give me any invincibility frames to approach with an aerial, such as dair to stop his attacks? If yes, how long?
Someone posted about fsmashing the nair? How does one do that and why does it work? Is it because of the super armor frames?

 

[PhantomX]

Upair doesn't go through glide, only if you're hitting "behind" them while they do it. You can fair the glide, but the best thing to do is dair it, b/c, as it's multihit, glide will clash with one of the hits and get hit by the rest.

Ledge invince abuse is one of the things I use the most against MK (and others as well). They like to approach from below as well, so invincible wafts are win. Don't know the exact frame count. And yes, you can dair with invince too, or nair, or bair, or whatever.

You need to superarmor to fsmash nairs.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Dair the glide, thats it. I keep getting my terms mixed up, but I can do it fine in-game. Eh...

 

[PhantomX]

OH, there are times when I've daired the nair. I think it only works on the weak hit and it may have to be a fastfallen dair; not 100% sure though.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[omegablackmage]

use the fiction combo, its so good. Is it guaranteed? and by fiction combo i mean chaining nairs (strong hit just off the short hop, and then the weak hit on the way down) across the stage into an fsmash or something. For whatever reason this works the best against mk.

biting can work, just don't do it in the predicatble fall on them from behind bite, cuz thats too obvious. I would think that airdodging right through them to land at their back into a turn around bite should work some of the time as a mix up. if nothing else this would make them play more aggressively, which is nice.

if your playing right, its pretty tough for the mk to gimp you. when you get hit off (as mentioned above) always bike right away to get max height. I've found that this recovery path is always the best as mk has a hard time dealing with this (see snake, cept wario gets outta the tornado's path much much easier). Using your airdodges and superior air speed will always get you back to the stage.

farting is actually a pretty good edgeguarding tool when they are coming from below. Like phantom said, grab the ledge and drop down with i frames to get a pretty safe fart in.

for the most part, dair is amazing to get damage off, along with fthrows. Learn to weave and get superior control of your air dodges and you shouldn't have too hard of a time getting in on mk. I would def agree that this match is 5/5.

what are some good stages vs mk? what do we want to avoid? i would think that fd would be alright (no grab releases to worry about, cept the edge but that'll happen anywhere), aside from halberd/brinstar. What about smashville/battlefield? are yoshis/lylat generally avoided wario stages?

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

use the fiction combo, its so good. Is it guaranteed? and by fiction combo i mean chaining nairs (strong hit just off the short hop, and then the weak hit on the way down) across the stage into an fsmash or something. For whatever reason this works the best against mk.

Why do people call that the Fiction combo (or since when)? I'm pretty sure I was using that at the same time if not before he was, and I got it listed through these threads and stuff... I've always been the largest proponent of neutral air for Wario -_- It's also just two nairs, and the fsmash is escapable if they quickly DI away (they'll likely perfect shield it; I don't think they can escape if they're heavies, though). It usually catches people off guard, though. I know that I'm not as good a player, but not getting recognized for things that I've pioneered is a peeve of mine (next thing you know jab cancel > fsmash will be attributed to someone else )

The Fiction combo involved footstooling after dairs, there's even a youtube video.

Smashville and FD are your ideal stages, after that I usually go to PS1 (do not get close to them during pretty much all the transformations). Stages where they can shark you from below are not very optimal. Stages with large platforms or other places for them to camp under with aerials are BAD. Lylat just is very good for MK in general. I've never tried going to Castle Siege, but it seems like another good place to go. Just camp the first "stage" and wait for the next one, and ideally the third.

 

[Excellence]

To get things organized and to make sure that this is the most informative match-up guide possible, I suggest that we break the match-up apart.

- Wario's approach options
- Some of the tactics a good Meta Knight will use.
- Ways to set Meta Knight up for a kill.
- Ways to deal with some of Meta Knight's troublesome moves.
- Counterpick Stages
- Miscellaneous
- Match-up rating.

Anyone else in agreeance with me to make this run smoother?

 

[MurdaMoe]

To get things organized and to make sure that this is the most informative match-up guide possible, I suggest that we break the match-up apart.

- Wario's approach options
- Some of the tactics a good Meta Knight will use.
- Ways to set Meta Knight up for a kill.
- Ways to deal with some of Meta Knight's troublesome moves.
- Counterpick Stages
- Miscellaneous
- Match-up rating.

Anyone else in agreeance with me to make this run smoother?

This guy has his **** together

 

[omegablackmage]

my bad phantom, i've only just started going to the wario boards. from this day forward, it will be known as the phantom combo! since you are the authority on it though, what characters is the nair string guaranteed on? and im sure that a grab would be unavoidable then? or maybe they get pushed too far back.

and yeah excellence thats a pretty good way of doing these matchup threads. the gw matchup thread lists just about all of that stuff in depth, works pretty well.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Why do people call that the Fiction combo (or since when)? I'm pretty sure I was using that at the same time if not before he was, and I got it listed through these threads and stuff... I've always been the largest proponent of neutral air for Wario -_- It's also just two nairs, and the fsmash is escapable if they quickly DI away (they'll likely perfect shield it; I don't think they can escape if they're heavies, though). It usually catches people off guard, though. I know that I'm not as good a player, but not getting recognized for things that I've pioneered is a peeve of mine (next thing you know jab cancel > fsmash will be attributed to someone else )

No worries Phatom, I've got your jab canceled Fsmash credited in my guide by you, no one will say otherwise

Nair works? Does it get past his Fair? I usually do boosted Fsmash through his Fair, I'm VERY VERY good at using the Fsmash SA frames to punish moves like that.

 

[PhantomX]

my bad phantom, i've only just started going to the wario boards. from this day forward, it will be known as the phantom combo! since you are the authority on it though, what characters is the nair string guaranteed on? and im sure that a grab would be unavoidable then? or maybe they get pushed too far back.

and yeah excellence thats a pretty good way of doing these matchup threads. the gw matchup thread lists just about all of that stuff in depth, works pretty well.

Just call it a nair combo, lol. The nair string itself is guaranteed on everyone at low percents (nair > nair, sometimes even a third on heavier characters). Fsmash is mostly guaranteed on the heavies at least (I know it works on Wario, so anyone above him on the weight list should work as well). Hylian has perfect shielded my fsmash follow up before, so I know that's DIable. Nair > Nair > Grab should ALWAYS work, though.

Nair won't get past MK's fair, we have nothing that will get through that. We can trade hits if we fair him about the same time he's starting his, but that's about it.

We can sh nair over their dsmash though.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

Bair out of shield punishes a lot, but it's a little slow, and if they shield it they can in turn punish you. What's amazing in most matchups against aggressors is to do retreating bairs.

 

[Dynomite]

Honestly, this is one of my most fav. match ups with wario. till this day, i have never lost a single round using wario against mk.
personally what i like to do is:

throw... ALOT
shield is my best friend
double jump >retreat airdodge (be patient)
Dair
i shield the glide attack cuz that will leave them open for a grab or Fsmash or even waft.
run tourds and stop with shield.
not 100% about grab relise between both of them, but im sure mk has some on wario and wario might even have some on mk.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Excellence]

So there is nothing we can do against Meta Knight's Forward Air approach? I've been going over it with full hopped or double jumped DAirs, double jumped pivoted Bites, air dodging through it and FSmash or Grab. Sometimes I'll even Bike through it since Meta Knight doesn't seem like he can do much about it if he's in the process of starting a Forward Aerial when you use your Bike.

When should I be using Neutral Air to approach with Wario? From my experiences on both sides of this match-up, it usually starts with Meta Knight putting up a wall of retreating Forward Aerials until someone messes up their spacing or decides to try and hit then run. And you guys say Neutral Aerial > Neutral Aerial > FSmash/Grab is a combo on everyone?

 

[PhantomX]

We can punish their forward air approach. Punishing their fair brickwalling is what's difficult, with good timing I've also punished it with the bike.

 

[_Phloat_]

If they start fairwalling, I normally throw tires =\.


Having a tire in your hand is good for this matchup, MK's poor airspeed will allow you to float back and smack him with a tire if he comes at you.

Although, you aren't ROB; you can't win a match 4% at a time... its a good trick to throw in there once in a while.

MK's dair is really really good if they jump as they use it, but if they are out of jumps because you were harassing them it is not a good option to fall with, neither is nair. Because of this, they will often FF airdodge to the ground, where you can smack em up.

Hey guys, my local TO just banned MK, so i'll be hanging out here for some time =]

 

[smashkng]

KOing Wario can be a hard time for Meta Knight since Wario is heavy with amazing horizontal DI while Wario can KO Meta Knight below 70% with Waft. A great advantage of Wario is that Meta Knight has no effective release on Wario.

 

[Excellence]

We can punish their forward air approach. Punishing their fair brickwalling is what's difficult, with good timing I've also punished it with the bike.

How do I punish Meta Knight's Forward Aerial approach, rising Downward Aerial > fast fall> rising Downard Aerial > fast fall > repeat approach, and retreating Forward Aerial wall?

 

[KHSigma]

Thanks for making a chart. I asked if someone could make one of these a while ago.

 

[Gichan]

The tire will be hit by one of the hits in the fair. But, is there enough ending lag from MK's fair to be hit by the tire?

 

[omegablackmage]

are you sure gichan? because i thought that mk's infinite priority on his attacks (save glide attack) meant that he couldn't swat projectiles away.

 

[Gichan]

are you sure gichan? because i thought that mk's infinite priority on his attacks (save glide attack) meant that he couldn't swat projectiles away.

Yes I probably fail, was that sarcasm? If not...

tire disappears at any (bold this) hit. I think even phantom has said this.

 

[PhantomX]

The only thing I've seen the tire go through is Sheik's chain :\

 

[BOB SAGET]

most wario users perpare for MKs. they tend to dodge quite a lot when facing MK. i myself have troubles with wario, hes very unpredictable. i say there both even.

 

[Excellence]

are you sure gichan? because i thought that mk's infinite priority on his attacks (save glide attack) meant that he couldn't swat projectiles away.

Meta Knight just cuts up the tires or catches them if he's starting up the FAir just as the tire comes near him.

The only thing I've seen the tire go through is Sheik's chain :\

How do you get around the three approaches that I listed earlier? How do I punish Meta Knight's Forward Aerial approach, rising Downward Aerial > fast fall> rising Downard Aerial > fast fall > repeat approach, and retreating Forward Aerial wall?

Is there a way for me to approach through this crap?

 

[PhantomX]

If he's approaching you can airdodge through him and then do whatever, hence why it's the easy one to deal with. If they do dairs either spotdodge them, upair them, or even uptilt them, as they're like, mks only slow aerial to come out. If they do retreating fairs, don't even bother, or condition them to continue doing those, if you can bait them into doing a fair, you can run up and shield and then fair poke, or you can bike through them.

 

[Excellence]

If he's approaching you can airdodge through him and then do whatever, hence why it's the easy one to deal with. If they do dairs either spotdodge them, upair them, or even uptilt them, as they're like, mks only slow aerial to come out. If they do retreating fairs, don't even bother, or condition them to continue doing those, if you can bait them into doing a fair, you can run up and shield and then fair poke, or you can bike through them.

Thanks a lot man. I also need to work on my Waft timing. All jokes aside, I think I do great with Wario especially considering that I've only decided to start using him full time and drop my previous main (Olimar) for him 3 days ago.

 

[_Phloat_]

The idea is being close enough that fair won't hit, but the tire hits them as they land...

It isn't a huge deal.. Just something I do to be productive as they fairwall... To get them to stop -_-.

 

[omegablackmage]

hmmm, no i wasn't being sarcastic, i didn't realize that the tire was a special case kinda projectile. in all honesty i don't use the bike all that often, mostly because my opponents don't give me enough time to sit there and break it.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I toss the bike at people with a smashed downthrow, it'll usually break it or put a very hard to pass obstacle in the way, and if they try to dash attack, jump over them, and watch them most of the time try to pick the bike up.

 

[Excellence]

hmmm, no i wasn't being sarcastic, i didn't realize that the tire was a special case kinda projectile. in all honesty i don't use the bike all that often, mostly because my opponents don't give me enough time to sit there and break it.

If you want your Bike broken then you can break it yourself. If your opponent won't let you break it then fit within the Bike's body. All of their attacks will also hit the Bike giving them a noticable bit of extra lag on their attacks allowing for easier shield grabs as well as damage the Bike.

The idea is being close enough that fair won't hit, but the tire hits them as they land...

It isn't a huge deal.. Just something I do to be productive as they fairwall... To get them to stop -_-.

I didn't mean to make you feel insulted or anything, if I did. I just thought that Meta Knight's FAir would cut them if it did hit them. It always good to be productive man, the more options you have the better.