Which stage do YOU consider to be the most competitive?

[Life]

I'm up for a tempban to see what happens. Then again, even a permanent ban could be reversed if (for some strange reason) MK's ban makes the metagame worse.

alternatively, BPC ruleset. The more I think about it the more I like it. Call it whatever-you-want-riding, IDC. IDC, by the way, is (probably) not broken under said rules.

 

[AvaricePanda]

the warning is not the point.

Yes there's warning, obviously you can avoid it and obviously it's not a large problem and obviously the stage is fine. It is still random and still can randomly reward X player in a certain position. For example, Halberd's Claw; yes you have lots of warning and you know when it's going to come and you can react to it, however if you're getting edgeguarded and it targets you and you're trying to get on the stage, you're in a position where you either get hit by the claw (and potentially die) or airdodge the claw but have your opponent hit you (and potentially die). The opportunity shouldn't have been there—yes it could have been worked around but it could have happened a second later, a second earlier, happened to your opponent, whatever, and the result would have been different.

and I can't believe how much you're downplaying Marth's dancing blade glitch on that stage. He can't use that move for the entirity of that transformation if he's on the treadmills. This isn't similar to MK tornadoing off the stage, because MK can tornado off the stage ANYWHERE and the result won't change unless it's from player interaction/the stage is Yoshi's Island. The randomness is not comparable to Smashville's balloon.

Your example of Battlefield having skewed/polarized match-ups doesn't make sense. MK and G&W both love Battlefield. Falco and Wario both like battlefield (a bit more match-up dependent but they still both have many strengths on the stage). Marth vs. etc? lol. There are very few characters I can think of that don't like strengths on battlefield. Starting at S tier on Tier list v5 the first one I came across was maybe Pikachu (and tbh I don't know much about him), then maybe Pit and Peach (same, don't know too much about them), then maybe Sonic...and that's pretty much it. Everyone else has some good strength on that stage and generally likes it.

You never said why you thought FD, SV, and BF were the least competitive stages in the first place.

A pro of more elements is more rewards for being better at adapting (although the depth layer is very very slim in most cases, PS2 is different because of physics changes, yet still the adaptations are like 4-5 different things you have to know about the stage beforehand and you pretty much succeed). A con is inconsistency (I don't feel like being redundant with examples).

Match-ups on BF seem very similar to how they'd play on PS2 (minus like MK being a little better and certain situations being more skewed on PS2 due to how certain transformations give larger temporary advantages). Why then do you think PS2 is a more competitive stage despite its randomness and glitches? What is your reasoning for finding PS2 the most competitive stage and BF one of the least? What are you basing a stage being "competitive" off of?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

the warning is not the point.

Yes there's warning, obviously you can avoid it and obviously it's not a large problem and obviously the stage is fine. It is still random and still can randomly reward X player in a certain position. For example, Halberd's Claw; yes you have lots of warning and you know when it's going to come and you can react to it, however if you're getting edgeguarded and it targets you and you're trying to get on the stage, you're in a position where you either get hit by the claw (and potentially die) or airdodge the claw but have your opponent hit you (and potentially die). The opportunity shouldn't have been there—yes it could have been worked around but it could have happened a second later, a second earlier, happened to your opponent, whatever, and the result would have been different.

and I can't believe how much you're downplaying Marth's dancing blade glitch on that stage. He can't use that move for the entirity of that transformation if he's on the treadmills. This isn't similar to MK tornadoing off the stage, because MK can tornado off the stage ANYWHERE and the result won't change unless it's from player interaction/the stage is Yoshi's Island. The randomness is not comparable to Smashville's balloon.

Your example of Battlefield having skewed/polarized match-ups doesn't make sense. MK and G&W both love Battlefield. Falco and Wario both like battlefield (a bit more match-up dependent but they still both have many strengths on the stage). Marth vs. etc? lol. There are very few characters I can think of that don't like strengths on battlefield. Starting at S tier on Tier list v5 the first one I came across was maybe Pikachu (and tbh I don't know much about him), then maybe Pit and Peach (same, don't know too much about them), then maybe Sonic...and that's pretty much it. Everyone else has some good strength on that stage and generally likes it.

You never said why you thought FD, SV, and BF were the least competitive stages in the first place.

A pro of more elements is more rewards for being better at adapting (although the depth layer is very very slim in most cases, PS2 is different because of physics changes, yet still the adaptations are like 4-5 different things you have to know about the stage beforehand and you pretty much succeed). A con is inconsistency (I don't feel like being redundant with examples).

Match-ups on BF seem very similar to how they'd play on PS2 (minus like MK being a little better and certain situations being more skewed on PS2 due to how certain transformations give larger temporary advantages). Why then do you think PS2 is a more competitive stage despite its randomness and glitches? What is your reasoning for finding PS2 the most competitive stage and BF one of the least? What are you basing a stage being "competitive" off of?

Not sure about BPC's opinion. But PS2 is more competitive in the sense that it challenges players to a greater extent and rewards more overall skill. The different parts of the stage bring greater focus to elements like aerial combat, teching, combat on ice, combat on tread-mills, etc...

Marth loses ONE attack on this stage, and only while it is transforming, doesn't seem that bad to me. Sure, it is one of the best moves in the game, but it's not like this stage skews Marth's match-ups or anything.

As I said earlier, it isn't the insignificance of the random changes that make them negligible, it is the fact that if you know the stage, it doesn't matter, at all.

If you know that a transformation is coming up (which any good player will), play more defensive, try to knock the opponent into a disadvantageous position and try to move to an advantageous position yourself.

What I'm trying to say is, a good player will never be put at a disadvantage by the stage's random changes unless the opponent out-played them.

 

[ADHD]

Not sure about BPC's opinion. But PS2 is more competitive in the sense that it challenges players to a greater extent and rewards more overall skill. The different parts of the stage bring greater focus to elements like aerial combat, teching, combat on ice, combat on tread-mills, etc...

No, it actually requires less skill.

Fighting on ice is a hopeless transformation that only stalls the match. The only characters that thoroughly enjoy ice are the Ice Climbers, Pit and Rob due to the very unique terrain. Otherwise, every time the ice appears both players' working is simply hindered and would really prefer it to pass as quickly as possible.

Aerial combat? You mean the floating transformation? The air limits your character severely, forcing each one to try to chip in hits but nothing flows out of them. There is almost no risk or reward system-it's just.. throw out attacks and that's that.

Treadmills? How do you strategize around something like treadmills? Hope they're stupid and are pushed offstage so you can gimp them? You can fill me in.

I'm not even going to touch on teching because teching is ubiquitous throughout every stage. Ps2 is in no way a revolutionary teching grounds, either.

As I said earlier, it isn't the insignificance of the random changes that make them negligible, it is the fact that if you know the stage, it doesn't matter, at all.

Yes, it does. Stages promoting randomness will still hinder you regardless. Brawl is a very sensitive game to stages, so so are the players that play the game. I cannot tell you how many times I've practiced on Brinstar and I'm still beaten by other characters that are better than Diddy on the terrain. I know the stage (pretty well, actually) and there's not much to it, too, but I still am very disadvantaged. Stages are stages no matter what and will interfere as they please without a care in the world for what is happening upon them.

If you know that a transformation is coming up (which any good player will), play more defensive, try to knock the opponent into a disadvantageous position and try to move to an advantageous position yourself.

But when it's random you can't do that. There's no reward for trying to knock your opponent into a disadvantaged position when you have no idea what transformation is coming up next because the stage is random!

What I'm trying to say is, a good player will never be put at a disadvantage by the stage's random changes unless the opponent out-played them.

Such is the common fairy-tale that everyone wishes was true. The stage's random changes are RANDOM, meaning they are unpredictable. If pictochat's rockets appear out of nowhere directly at your position regardless of what you're doing, you were outplayed? Should I just fear the chance that a rocket, plant--no, dumb line that gimps you might appear any second now?

Competition should be based off of PvP skill, and close to that as much as possible to prevent luck. ACTUAL LUCK from occuring and robbing your $$$$ straight out of your ***.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Fighting on ice is a hopeless transformation that only stalls the match. The only characters that thoroughly enjoy ice are the Ice Climbers, Pit and Rob due to the very unique terrain. Otherwise, every time the ice appears both players' working is simply hindered and would really prefer it to pass as quickly as possible.

Unless you learned how to adapt to it. Then it wouldn't exactly be "hopeless".

Aerial combat? You mean the floating transformation? The air limits your character severely, forcing each one to try to chip in hits but nothing flows out of them. There is almost no risk or reward system-it's just.. throw out attacks and that's that.

You can position yourself in the air, you know that, right?

Treadmills? How do you strategize around something like treadmills? Hope they're stupid and are pushed offstage so you can gimp them? You can fill me in.

You just described a perfectly fine way to strategize with the treadmills.

Such is the common fairy-tale that everyone wishes was true. The stage's random changes are RANDOM, meaning they are unpredictable. If pictochat's rockets appear out of nowhere directly at your position regardless of what you're doing, you were outplayed? Should I just fear the chance that a rocket, plant--no, dumb line that gimps you might appear any second now?

But nothing is random and/or out of the blue.

Competition should be based off of PvP skill, and close to that as much as possible to prevent luck. ACTUAL LUCK from occuring and robbing your $$$$ straight out of your ***.

Depth Is an important factor. Fox vs. Fox, no items, FD is for scubs who can't learn to adapt.

Also, luck isn't a reason you would lose a match because of a stage. Either:

A. You don't know the stage
B. Your opponent knew the stage better than you.
C. Both of the above.

 

[teluoborg]

Not sure about BPC's opinion. But PS2 is more competitive in the sense that it challenges players to a greater extent and rewards more overall skill. The different parts of the stage bring greater focus to elements like aerial combat, teching, combat on ice, combat on tread-mills, etc...

Yeah right, because OBVIOUSLY just having to adapt to your opponent and control simple stage setups is BORING and takes NOT ENOUGH SKILL to be called "competitive" by the elite you belong to.

Seriously that's still the biggest flaw in the pro PS2 reasoning : implying that the whole smash scene is too dumb/lazy/weak/johning to adapt.

I don't know if strictly balancing most match-ups makes a stage competitive....

Sorry, I know it's from 2 pages ago but I had to quote that so that everyone could read it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not even going to touch on teching because teching is ubiquitous throughout every stage. Ps2 is in no way a revolutionary teching grounds, either.



Yes, it does. Stages promoting randomness will still hinder you regardless. Brawl is a very sensitive game to stages, so so are the players that play the game. I cannot tell you how many times I've practiced on Brinstar and I'm still beaten by other characters that are better than Diddy on the terrain. I know the stage (pretty well, actually) and there's not much to it, too, but I still am very disadvantaged. Stages are stages no matter what and will interfere as they please without a care in the world for what is happening upon them.



But when it's random you can't do that. There's no reward for trying to knock your opponent into a disadvantaged position when you have no idea what transformation is coming up next because the stage is random!



Such is the common fairy-tale that everyone wishes was true. The stage's random changes are RANDOM, meaning they are unpredictable. If pictochat's rockets appear out of nowhere directly at your position regardless of what you're doing, you were outplayed? Should I just fear the chance that a rocket, plant--no, dumb line that gimps you might appear any second now?

Competition should be based off of PvP skill, and close to that as much as possible to prevent luck. ACTUAL LUCK from occuring and robbing your $$$$ straight out of your ***.

Firstly... What Dark Horse said.

Teching is more common and more important on PS2 than on Battlefield.

You may notice that the advantageous position on every transformation is the centre, and the disadvantageous position is off-stage. You don't need to know which transformation is coming up to plan for that. Also note that you get a second or so where the stage is transforming and you can see what is coming up.

With your Pictochat example, if you were hit by the rockets, no you weren't out-played. That comes from not knowing the stage. You are given a second to avoid the rocket as it is being drawn, you should know where they spawn as well and always be thinking "Ok, the stage is transforming, I better go here in case it is the rockets next".

Compare it to tripping. The reason a lot of players don't dash dance is because of the risk of tripping (a random occurrence, but can be semi-predicted, just like the PS2 transformations). As you can see, players have limited themselves to prevent this semi-random event from happening, players should do the same when playing on Pictochat and Pokemon Stadium 2.

If competition should be based solely off PvP skill, why do we have a counter-picking system? Why do we allow D3 to use his Waddle Dee Toss? Why don't we just play every match on Final Destination? Hell, why do we even play this game?, there is always the risk of tripping!

Yeah right, because OBVIOUSLY just having to adapt to your opponent and control simple stage setups is BORING and takes NOT ENOUGH SKILL to be called "competitive" by the elite you belong to.

Seriously that's still the biggest flaw in the pro PS2 reasoning : implying that the whole smash scene is too dumb/lazy/weak/johning to adapt.


Sorry, I know it's from 2 pages ago but I had to quote that so that everyone could read it.

Don't accuse me of being elitist and don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say anything about simpler stages being boring or not taking enough skill to be competitive. But you cannot seriously believe that a stage that has less variables is more skill-based than a stage with more variables?

Oh, and they obviously are too dumb/lazy/weak/johning to adapt, otherwise they'd stop *****ing and just adapt.

 

[AvaricePanda]

If a certain stage strategy boils down to "do this and you win," then it doesn't really add depth, if anything it takes it away lol.

PS2 electric transformation for most characters is "don't touch the treadmills or I get edgehogged." Yes there are nifty tricks each character can learn and knowing the stage will help but it will boil down to trying to use this transformation to get damage via edgeguarding. Some characters can do it better.

PS2 air transformation for a lot of match-ups can be "don't jump or I get juggled" because of how restricted air movement is and how easy it is to juggle people. Some characters can just jump and wait it out for a large portion of the transformation lol.

Rock and Ice are normal and I can see the whole, "added depth" argument, however I can't see it with the first two. It's like Luigi's Mansion; yes it's a completely different stage layout so it requires more overall game knowledge to be good on, but the game will still boil down to "abuse this or you lose". This isn't the case with all of PS2 but still.

What are people basing a stage being "most competitive" on anyway?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If a certain stage strategy boils down to "do this and you win," then it doesn't really add depth, if anything it takes it away lol.

PS2 electric transformation for most characters is "don't touch the treadmills or I get edgehogged." Yes there are nifty tricks each character can learn and knowing the stage will help but it will boil down to trying to use this transformation to get damage via edgeguarding. Some characters can do it better.

PS2 air transformation for a lot of match-ups can be "don't jump or I get juggled" because of how restricted air movement is and how easy it is to juggle people. Some characters can just jump and wait it out for a large portion of the transformation lol.

Rock and Ice are normal and I can see the whole, "added depth" argument, however I can't see it with the first two. It's like Luigi's Mansion; yes it's a completely different stage layout so it requires more overall game knowledge to be good on, but the game will still boil down to "abuse this or you lose". This isn't the case with all of PS2 but still.

Is that not the case with every element of Brawl?
Meta Knight can be boiled down to "Use tornado as a reset button of sorts, juggle opponent with fair/uair/dair, spam D-smash to kill".

What are people basing a stage being "most competitive" on anyway?

This. If we are going to argue this we need to work out what "competitive" even means in this sense.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

If a certain stage strategy boils down to "do this and you win," then it doesn't really add depth, if anything it takes it away lol.

You could say that to every stage.

FD: camp
BF: spam
SV: camp

 

[AvaricePanda]

You could say that to every stage.

FD: camp
BF: spam
SV: camp

Not at all.

i mean sure you could SAY that, but the difference is not only does what you mentioned not nearly work to the consistency that other stage specific things have (nor is it even stage specific as you can do those things on every stage) but in most cases they're simply slight advantageous zones.

Example, Olimar on BF. He's camping. I shouldn't try to land on the lowest platform above me otherwise he can U-smash or U-air me. When I try to approach I have to avoid projectiles (which is very possible) and attempt to hit him with something (which is at least 3-4 viable options vs. 3-4 viable options).

Olimar on Luigi's Mansion. He's camping under a ceiling. I can't approach in the air because of the ceiling, so I can't really approach at his weakest spot. I can't destroy the stage as he'll just U-air me through it. Approaching only with a dash limits my options and makes it severely easier for him to read what I'm going to do and just counter it and do damage. He honestly shouldn't lose against a lot of characters on this stage.

Or take Olimar on PTAD, he's edgeguarding someone. The opponent has no ledge to grab onto so it's easier for him to hit or grab the opponent for extra damage.

maybe these things aren't, "do this you win," but they're still very large advantages, MUCH MUCH MUCH moreso than just "camping" on SV or FD (obviously this isn't close to the extent as other things are because tons of people lose when they camp lolol).

@GrimTuesday, that's not really the case with every element of Brawl either. Sure, you can SAY that. I can just say that Falco is, "SHDL, jab and f-tilt at close ranges, grab, read approaches," or that Diddy is "banana, shield, banana," but these accurate statements of what happens in the least and you know this. It's much different than abusing one clear-cut thing on a stage to large advantages. you can't compare olimar and luigi's mansion to, "well it's like MK just uses tornado a lot."

 

[ADHD]

Unless you learned how to adapt to it. Then it wouldn't exactly be "hopeless".

Wow, no. The ice still has the same very strong properties DESPITE "L2ADAPT PLZ." I am so tired of that.

You can position yourself in the air, you know that, right?

Okay, so fighting in the air is productive then? Since when you're hit, you fly a mile away, or you have to wait a minute for them to fall down to hit them? I'm sure that this is more competitive than battlefield.

You just described a perfectly fine way to strategize with the treadmills.

Die!

But nothing is random and/or out of the blue.

Yes, they are. Oh my god. Do you even play this game, actually? Nothing is random? NORFAIR'S LAVA? THE LAVA CAN COME OUT OF THE BLUE WITHOUT WARNING.

Depth Is an important factor. Fox vs. Fox, no items, FD is for scubs who can't learn to adapt.

It's not depth, it's merely watered down ground pressure game. This is terrible, LOL.

Also, luck isn't a reason you would lose a match because of a stage. Either:

A. You don't know the stage
B. Your opponent knew the stage better than you.
C. Both of the above.[/color]

Yes, it is. Mikehaze vs ook game 3 was not lost because of ANY of these reasons.

Firstly... What Dark Horse said.

No, not what Dark Horse said.

Teching is more common and more important on PS2 than on Battlefield.

By maybe.. 3 percent. I don't know what you would tech off of other than that little dirt mound raised slightly above the ground.

You may notice that the advantageous position on every transformation is the centre, and the disadvantageous position is off-stage. You don't need to know which transformation is coming up to plan for that. Also note that you get a second or so where the stage is transforming and you can see what is coming up.

Okay, this is reasonable.

With your Pictochat example, if you were hit by the rockets, no you weren't out-played. That comes from not knowing the stage. You are given a second to avoid the rocket as it is being drawn, you should know where they spawn as well and always be thinking "Ok, the stage is transforming, I better go here in case it is the rockets next".

This is very unreasonable. That's like saying, "Well it might hail today because that happened in October of 1995, so I'll just stay indoors."

Compare it to tripping. The reason a lot of players don't dash dance is because of the risk of tripping (a random occurrence, but can be semi-predicted, just like the PS2 transformations). As you can see, players have limited themselves to prevent this semi-random event from happening, players should do the same when playing on Pictochat and Pokemon Stadium 2.

Most players don't dash dance because it's absolutely useless.

If competition should be based solely off PvP skill, why do we have a counter-picking system? Why do we allow D3 to use his Waddle Dee Toss? Why don't we just play every match on Final Destination? Hell, why do we even play this game?, there is always the risk of tripping!

We have a counterpicking system because it's the vestigial structure left behind from melee. It's a tradition, that the loser be given a second chance. Hell, I didn't make the rules.

Don't accuse me of being elitist and don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say anything about simpler stages being boring or not taking enough skill to be competitive. But you cannot seriously believe that a stage that has less variables is more skill-based than a stage with more variables?

I actually didn't accuse you of being one. I believe that a stage with less variables is more skill-based than SOME stages with more variables. More =/= better, when these additional variables can actually limit the metagame and each character's potential, ya see? I believe no stage is more competitive than battlefield, and the only stage that MIGHT rival it is Smashville.

Oh, and they obviously are too dumb/lazy/weak/johning to adapt, otherwise they'd stop *****ing and just adapt.

Or the nuisance is actually existent and we don't feel like playing something unfair and unnecessary that drastically changes the outcome of matches with HEAVY money on the line.

Now I'm off to go sleep to play for a corrupted East Coast style stagelist tomorrow. BPC just imagine all of the metagame that we're missing! You'll have nightmares.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Wow, no. The ice still has the same very strong properties DESPITE "L2ADAPT PLZ." I am so tired of that.

Then do it!

Okay, so fighting in the air is productive then? Since when you're hit, you fly a mile away,

Not really.

or you have to wait a minute for them to fall down to hit them? I'm sure that this is more competitive than battlefield.

Fastfalling. Look it up.

Die!

Nah, I don't feel like it.

Yes, they are. Oh my god. Do you even play this game, actually? Nothing is random? NORFAIR'S LAVA? THE LAVA CAN COME OUT OF THE BLUE WITHOUT WARNING.

*facepalms* Have you played this game? There is a warning for everything.

Tidal wave: capsule appears
Wall of lava: screen pans out
Rising lava: shaking
Fountain of lava: shaking & lava appears in the background.

It's not depth, it's merely watered down ground pressure game. This is terrible, LOL.

You never explained how, unless those pathetic reasons above where your explanation.

Yes, it is. Mikehaze vs ook game 3 was not lost because of ANY of these reasons.

Show me the vid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stuff.

I was pointing out that everything can seem "dependent" on one strategy if you simplify it down to that, which is exactly what you did for PS2. No, there is more to it than just "avoid the treadmills", just like there is more to Meta Knight than "spam Nado".

Wow, no. The ice still has the same very strong properties DESPITE "L2ADAPT PLZ." I am so tired of that.

Okay, so fighting in the air is productive then? Since when you're hit, you fly a mile away, or you have to wait a minute for them to fall down to hit them? I'm sure that this is more competitive than battlefield.

Die!

Yes, they are. Oh my god. Do you even play this game, actually? Nothing is random? NORFAIR'S LAVA? THE LAVA CAN COME OUT OF THE BLUE WITHOUT WARNING.

It's not depth, it's merely watered down ground pressure game. This is terrible, LOL.

Yes, it is. Mikehaze vs ook game 3 was not lost because of ANY of these reasons.

No, not what Dark Horse said.

By maybe.. 3 percent. I don't know what you would tech off of other than that little dirt mound raised slightly above the ground.

Okay, this is reasonable.

This is very unreasonable. That's like saying, "Well it might hail today because that happened in October of 1995, so I'll just stay indoors."

Most players don't dash dance because it's absolutely useless.

We have a counterpicking system because it's the vestigial structure left behind from melee. It's a tradition, that the loser be given a second chance. Hell, I didn't make the rules.

I actually didn't accuse you of being one. I believe that a stage with less variables is more skill-based than SOME stages with more variables. More =/= better, when these additional variables can actually limit the metagame and each character's potential, ya see? I believe no stage is more competitive than battlefield, and the only stage that MIGHT rival it is Smashville.

Or the nuisance is actually existent and we don't feel like playing something unfair and unnecessary that drastically changes the outcome of matches with HEAVY money on the line.

Now I'm off to go sleep to play for a corrupted East Coast style stagelist tomorrow. BPC just imagine all of the metagame that we're missing! You'll have nightmares.

I haven't seen the ice transformation consistently result in camping. Got a match to back that claim up?

Fighting on the air transformation is fine. Try again.

Mikehaze vs Ook game 3 occurred because the players didn't know the stage. If you are going to go over the bomb-block pile, air dodge, or wait until it is fully stacked, whatever. If you are hit into the area as a bomb block spawns and that kills you, it is because you were out-played by the opponent (intentionally or otherwise).

I believe Dark Horse said "Random events that COME OUT OF THE BLUE". None of Norfair's hazards are unpredictable.

Sorry about the teching thing, you're right. I was thinking of PS1 for some reason -_-

If the weather looked like it was going to hail, then you have reason not to go outside. Just like how if there is a reasonable chance the stage will kill you, then you should take precautions.

Who cares if dash-dancing is useless? Way to miss the point.

Again, who cares if the CP system is tradition? What about the other points I brought up?

I wasn't talking to you about the elitist thing. With the more =/= better thing, that all depends on what you view competitive as.

Lol at PS2 drastically changing the outcome of matches. Just lol.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I love how this thread is going. *Subscribing*

btw, imo, the most competitive stage is Pictochat....
just sayin'

 

[ADHD]

WOW I'm done for a while. stupid people.

 

[-LzR-]

I like how this is going, a little less aggressiveness and we may reach a nice debate, ON THE INTERWEBZ!!! OMG

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

WOW I'm done for a while. stupid people.

GGs

I like how this is going, a little less aggressiveness and we may reach a nice debate, ON THE INTERWEBZ!!! OMG

I know right?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like how this is going, a little less aggressiveness and we may reach a nice debate, ON THE INTERWEBZ!!! OMG

I was trying to be civil

WOW I'm done for a while. stupid people.

Read: I disagree with their opinion so they are inferior to me.

 

[ADHD]

I know right?

You never explained how, unless those pathetic reasons above where your explanation.

You're soooooooooooo coooooooool

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

You're soooooooooooo coooooooool

I know right?

 

[UberMario]

No, it actually requires less skill.

While I don't think PS2 is the most competitive stage in the game, I disagree with the following:

Fighting on ice is a hopeless transformation that only stalls the match. The only characters that thoroughly enjoy ice are the Ice Climbers, Pit and Rob due to the very unique terrain. Otherwise, every time the ice appears both players' working is simply hindered and would really prefer it to pass as quickly as possible.

Sliding smashes are really useful on the ice stage, heck, you can do a regular Smash and slide a quarter-to-a-third of the way across the stage, regular attacks work while sliding aswell.

Aerial combat? You mean the floating transformation? The air limits your character severely, forcing each one to try to chip in hits but nothing flows out of them. There is almost no risk or reward system-it's just.. throw out attacks and that's that.

Not much to say here, it's an interesting change, but the floatiness does have the issues you mentioned.

Treadmills? How do you strategize around something like treadmills? Hope they're stupid and are pushed offstage so you can gimp them? You can fill me in.

You can pressure by using the treadmill speed to your advantage while attacking, it sucks to be on the defensive if your character isn't good at getting into the air though, this is my least favorite transformation (my two favorites are Ice and Ground).

But when it's random you can't do that. There's no reward for trying to knock your opponent into a disadvantaged position when you have no idea what transformation is coming up next because the stage is random!

Actually, it's not that random, you can see the next transformation coming up on the jumbotron several seconds in advance, and I'm pretty sure the cycle goes through all four of the transformations before resetting and shuffling, so you always can predict the fourth transformation, same with PS1.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the warning is not the point.

Yes there's warning, obviously you can avoid it and obviously it's not a large problem and obviously the stage is fine. It is still random and still can randomly reward X player in a certain position.

The only way that it randomly rewards players is if a character is severely better on one transformation than the other. While this may be the case in certain transformations (ground, air), none of these can effectively be used for severe aggression, making it a moot point (i.e. you can stall your opponent out on them almost no matter what, so who cares-the one you're good on will come around too). It is, as said, negligable.

For example, Halberd's Claw; yes you have lots of warning and you know when it's going to come and you can react to it, however if you're getting edgeguarded and it targets you and you're trying to get on the stage, you're in a position where you either get hit by the claw (and potentially die) or airdodge the claw but have your opponent hit you (and potentially die). The opportunity shouldn't have been there—yes it could have been worked around but it could have happened a second later, a second earlier, happened to your opponent, whatever, and the result would have been different.

Bad example; I hate the claw too. It doesn't affect both characters/players equally, not even remotely. It sets an unfair disadvantage on one player that is not based on anything the other player does. Unlike on PS2, where the only disadvantage would be based on the opponent's choice of character in respects to your own.

and I can't believe how much you're downplaying Marth's dancing blade glitch on that stage. He can't use that move for the entirity of that transformation if he's on the treadmills. This isn't similar to MK tornadoing off the stage, because MK can tornado off the stage ANYWHERE and the result won't change unless it's from player interaction/the stage is Yoshi's Island. The randomness is not comparable to Smashville's balloon.

Explain the glitch to me. Am I correct in thinking that the problem is that marth cannot use dancing blade for 30 seconds while on a certain part of the stage? And even then, he has a wide margin of error (just can't end up on the ledge during the move)? And EVEN THEN (marth can't DB near the ledge... that could be an offense) you have 7+ seconds of warning before this "random" event, and can tell that it won't happen again until the sequence has finished.

I'm not downplaying it, you're overbearing it into the ground. The glitch is so ridiculously negligable it's not even funny. Basically you're saying that it's a big deal that marth can't use one move on one part of one 30-second segment of a stage which gives you more than ample warning beforehand... because it is random.

Your example of Battlefield having skewed/polarized match-ups doesn't make sense. MK and G&W both love Battlefield. Falco and Wario both like battlefield (a bit more match-up dependent but they still both have many strengths on the stage). Marth vs. etc? lol. There are very few characters I can think of that don't like strengths on battlefield. Starting at S tier on Tier list v5 the first one I came across was maybe Pikachu (and tbh I don't know much about him), then maybe Pit and Peach (same, don't know too much about them), then maybe Sonic...and that's pretty much it. Everyone else has some good strength on that stage and generally likes it.

All right, fine. So BF doesn't have THAT many matchups that it skews away from 50-50. But try some of these:
Falco-MK
G&W-MK
Diddy-MK
ICs-MK

Moves them away from the average and mean of the matchup.

You never said why you thought FD, SV, and BF were the least competitive stages in the first place.

Not the least, but up there. Raziek summed it up: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11234246&postcount=90

A pro of more elements is more rewards for being better at adapting (although the depth layer is very very slim in most cases, PS2 is different because of physics changes, yet still the adaptations are like 4-5 different things you have to know about the stage beforehand and you pretty much succeed). A con is inconsistency (I don't feel like being redundant with examples).

SOME random events produce inconsistency. I could understand an argument for Pictochat or Norfair producing inconsistencies. But the inconsistencies produced by almost every stage with random or semi-random events is ridiculously low. PS1 is ridiculously consistent, despite the randomness. Frigate? PS2? Same. The list of legal stages with randomness that actually MATTERS is ridiculously low, without dipping into the realm of SV's balloon.

Match-ups on BF seem very similar to how they'd play on PS2 (minus like MK being a little better and certain situations being more skewed on PS2 due to how certain transformations give larger temporary advantages). Why then do you think PS2 is a more competitive stage despite its randomness and glitches? What is your reasoning for finding PS2 the most competitive stage and BF one of the least? What are you basing a stage being "competitive" off of?

Skill required to play on the stage effectively overall. You have to actually know something about the stage on PS2. The randomness (or rather, the thing it causes which matters, inconsistencies), and the glitches (dear god why do you keep meatriding marth's DB glitch???), are both almost completely negligable.

Battlefield... meh, it's not bad. Better than picto, nowhere near PS2.

EDIT:

I love how this thread is going. *Subscribing*

btw, imo, the most competitive stage is Pictochat....
just sayin'

Are you nuts? Pictochat is one of the most inconsistent stages in the current stagelist.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Are you nuts? Pictochat is one of the most inconsistent stages in the current stagelist.

Incorrect. Each picture lasts for 13.3333 seconds, the wait in between drawings is 13.3333 seconds, and a drawing will not appear again until all the other ones have been drawn

Far from random.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Are you nuts? Pictochat is one of the most inconsistent stages in the current stagelist.

Green Greens says hi... just sayin'

What are you talking about? Why it is "inconsistent"?
Pictochat is just the most diverse stage in the whole game, it adds depht by changing the stage structure, shape and options.
Adapting on most transformations is not even hard, but you must do it many times. Anyways, there's nothing that can't be avoided with some little knowledge and half a brain.

 

[UberMario]

Considering there are in between 15-to-30 (don't remember how many exactly) transformations on Pictochat, it's as good as random because you won't be remembering every last one you've been through and there isn't a way to determine the next transformation mid-match.

And lol @ Green Greens being more inconsistent than PictoChat. The apples and blocks are easy to deal with.

 

[Zatchiel]

Incorrect. Each picture lasts for 13.3333 seconds, the wait in between drawings is 13.3333 seconds, and a drawing will not appear again until all the other ones have been drawn

Far from random.

BPC said inconsistent, not randomized.

What are you talking about? Why it is "inconsistent"?
Pictochat is just the most diverse stage in the whole game, it adds depht by changing the stage structure, shape and options.
Adapting on most transformations is not even hard, but you must do it many times. Anyways, there's nothing that can't be avoided with some little knowledge and half a brain.

Lol really? It has transformations that can alter control over a stage, to add, many of its transitions have objects that bare a hitbox, and to a lesser extent, potentially KO at higher percents. For example, the transition of the stage that bares spikes allows disjointed attacks to go nuts.

And lol @ Green Greens being more inconsistent than PictoChat. The apples and blocks are easy to deal with.

The blocks really aren't an issue if you know what you're doing, and the apples just add mechanics like Glide Tossing to become a viable option mid-game, good for when you or your opponent can't draw a throw-able item.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lol really? It has transformations that can alter control over a stage, to add, many of its transitions have objects that bare a hitbox, and to a lesser extent, potentially KO at higher percents. For example, the transition of the stage that bares spikes allows disjointed attacks to go nuts.

there's nothing that can't be avoided with some little knowledge and half a brain.

*10 chars*

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

BPC said inconsistent, not randomized.

That's the same thing.

 

[Zatchiel]

*10 chars*

Doesn't help the fact that the stage in itself becomes one massive item.

That's the same thing.

Inconsistency is not the same as randomness.

inb4getitright

 

[ぱみゅ]

Doesn't help the fact that the stage in itself becomes one massive item.

Doesn't change the fact it is easy to deal with, so the hazards become irrelevant in the long run (see: Halberd).

 

[Zatchiel]

Doesn't change the fact it is easy to deal with, so the hazards become irrelevant in the long run (see: Halberd).

If they're so easy to avoid as to what you imply, then Pictochat in itself is just one recreation of Final Destination with a bit of variation, am i correct?

Also, Halberd's hazards are rather tolerable, since it would take something short of knowledge to be losing matches by them. It's also non-transitional most of the time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If they're so easy to avoid as to what you imply, then Pictochat in itself is just one recreation of Final Destination with a bit of variation, am i correct?

Also, Halberd's hazards are rather tolerable, since it would take something short of knowledge to be losing matches by them. It's also non-transitional most of the time.

My point is somewhere between both statements you just made.

Pictochat is a flat stage, that once in a while change itself, adding more options.
Characters with great mobility adapts to them with no problem, but they only have few seconds to capitalize that advantage.
Characters that does not are still having their solid, reliable ground. Within few seconds, their opponents will have no option but play there, and/or wait for next transformation.

As for hazards, I've never seen them breaking a match unless they don't know it, or they're idiots.
Anyways, no hazard should hit if you're being careful, although it can be forced by opponent, such as Halberd's.

 

[Zatchiel]

My point is somewhere between both statements you just made.

Pictochat is a flat stage, that once in a while change itself, adding more options.
Characters with great mobility adapts to them with no problem, but they only have few seconds to capitalize that advantage.
Characters that does not are still having their solid, reliable ground. Within few seconds, their opponents will have no option but play there, and/or wait for next transformation.

As for hazards, I've never seen them breaking a match unless they don't know it, or they're idiots.
Anyways, no hazard should hit if you're being careful, although it can be forced by opponent, such as Halberd's.

Halberd only has 3 real hazards that can potentially kill you (2 if you've got the brains to SDI the cannon).
Going to reply to all of your statements in re-quote:

Pictochat is a flat stage, that once in a while change itself, adding more options.

Didn't really understand this.

Characters with great mobility adapts to them with no problem, but they only have few seconds to capitalize that advantage.

If characters gain an advantage or disadvantage at osculating intervals of the match, there's much inconsistency throught, remarks to BPC for pointing that out pre-hand.

Characters that does not are still having their solid, reliable ground. Within few seconds, their opponents will have no option but play there, and/or wait for next transformation.

Same as above.

As for hazards, I've never seen them breaking a match unless they don't know it, or they're idiots.
Anyways, no hazard should hit if you're being careful, although it can be forced by opponent, such as Halberd's.

Using the stage to your advantage is purely strategical, and the same can be done on Pictochat, severely :/
I don't see where you're trying to go with this.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Didn't really understand this.
Probably because english is not my native. Let's skip that part.

If characters gain an advantage or disadvantage at osculating intervals of the match, there's much inconsistency throught, remarks to BPC for pointing that out pre-hand.
I think this is a case of different conceptions of "consistence" and "competitiveness". If "inconsistence" and "change" means the same thing, then I'll agree with Picto being inconsistent, but I'll disagree with "inconsistent" being bad for competition.

Same as above.
Same as above.

Using the stage to your advantage is purely strategical, and the same can be done on Pictochat, severely :/
I don't see where you're trying to go with this.
The stage is not limited to a single strategy, and advantages/disvantages lasts few seconds before you get forced to adapt again into a completly different terrain that may or may not favout you or your opponent.

Response in quote

 

[Zatchiel]

I think this is a case of different conceptions of "consistence" and "competitiveness". If "inconsistence" and "change" means the same thing, then I'll agree with Picto being inconsistent, but I'll disagree with "inconsistent" being bad for competition.
I never said inconsistency was bad for competition. I'm not saying it isn't, but i never said it was.

The stage is not limited to a single strategy, and advantages/disvantages lasts few seconds before you get forced to adapt again into a completly different terrain that may or may not favout you or your opponent.

Polarizing stages like FD rely on a single tactic with no adjustment to strategy whatsoever. It doesn't really matter who it favors, we aren't talking about MU ratios. You're forced to move around much more and use the stage to your advantage, as well as avoiding hazards in turn.

In the quotes.
10quotes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Polarizing stages like FD rely on a single tactic with no adjustment to strategy whatsoever. It doesn't really matter who it favors, we aren't talking about MU ratios. You're forced to move around much more and use the stage to your advantage, as well as avoiding hazards in turn.

What's you point?
That's like.... Exactly what I meant, but it sounded as a complaint rather than as an actual explanation.

and, btw, I am talking about MU ratios.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Incorrect. Each picture lasts for 13.3333 seconds, the wait in between drawings is 13.3333 seconds, and a drawing will not appear again until all the other ones have been drawn

Far from random.

Please stop saying this. This has been shown to be false. The time between and during hazards is not consistent.

Green Greens says hi... just sayin'

What are you talking about? Why it is "inconsistent"?
Pictochat is just the most diverse stage in the whole game, it adds depht by changing the stage structure, shape and options.
Adapting on most transformations is not even hard, but you must do it many times. Anyways, there's nothing that can't be avoided with some little knowledge and half a brain.

It is incredibly diverse. The problem is the very little warning it gives you, and the inherent problems in that. You get, depending on the hazard, maybe a second of warning. While it is true that there's that safe zone, there's still the issue that randomly, bad positions may be severely amplified, or might not. The gameplay is severely different if I get knocked offstage and try to recovery if the spikes come up, or if the dividing line comes up and gimps me. It can lead to quite serious inconsistencies; I'd place it as "barely legalizable".

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is incredibly diverse. The problem is the very little warning it gives you, and the inherent problems in that. You get, depending on the hazard, maybe a second of warning. While it is true that there's that safe zone, there's still the issue that randomly, bad positions may be severely amplified, or might not. The gameplay is severely different if I get knocked offstage and try to recovery if the spikes come up, or if the dividing line comes up and gimps me. It can lead to quite serious inconsistencies; I'd place it as "barely legalizable".

Well, the game itself demands you to have an even faster response to your opponent's actions.
Basically, I don't see little warning as an issue if your opponents gives you none.
And those events... I really don't see them randomly happening at all, you need a really, really bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong moment so the stage screws you up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, the game itself demands you to have an even faster response to your opponent's actions.
Basically, I don't see little warning as an issue if your opponents gives you none.
And those events... I really don't see them randomly happening at all, you need a really, really bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong moment so the stage screws you up.

Which makes it even worse when you DO have really, really bad luck.