Ballistics
Smash Champion
It seems there are just as many people who are for as there are people who are against this controversial simple move, in order to make sure everyone's opinion is honored I think a compromise is in order. I happen to be pro-wobbling because I like the idea of domination. So let me throw my two cents in on the subject and then I'll propose a compromise. I know this subject is kind of beat to death, but I'm still seeing tournament hosts divide about this issue. Please reply with your own reasons why wobbling should be banned or legalized or how a compromise can be made. Ultimately the goal I have for this thread is to come up with a solution to replace the too often default ban of wobbling.
Here's why I think people want wobbling banned. For discussion purposes I think it is pertinent to compare the ice climbers to jigglypuff. Although Jigglypuff's rest is also a one move kill, I think that since it happens so fast, people don't mind dying from it. When they get wobbled, they have to watch as the other player slowly butters them up to their deaths and this inability to fight discourages and frustrates them. And don't get me wrong, I understand this and I have been wobbled many times and have also been frustrated by it.
But that frustration is not a legitimate reason to take away an advantage from the ice climbers. Impartiality and fairness should be the focus of rules not preference.
I believe the only legitimate argument against wobbling is that it can be used to stall a match, but stalling is frowned upon in melee and noone would attempt to do this anyway. This problem can be solved by putting a percentage limit on the wobble.
To further embellish on the rest - wobble metaphor, some would say that jiggs' rest is harder to accomplish than wobbling, however, this comes mostly from ignorant players that think wobbling can be achieved with any grab. In fact, wobbling is situational and can only be performed when nana is close at hand to popo, meaning that if you do get wobbled, you were either shield grabbed or grabbed while the ice climbers player was in his comfort zone. So ultimately you messed up somehow. Just as if you get rested its also your fault, because you either did a dash attack on the jigglypuff's shield or didn't DI an upthrow well or missed a tech etc.
Both moves are usually instant kills so if you ban wobbling for that reason you have to ban the rest move as well. They both take roughly the same amount of skill to pull off, or at least are both hard to set up, so you can't use the cheap argument. And the stalling argument can be nullified with a percentage limit.
But even though fairness should be the sole determinant of rules at a tournament, ultimately its up to the community. So I think every tournament host should poll the players on three options.
1) total ban; but be aware this opens doors to other move bans, now that you have started to ban non-glitch incorporating moves
2) no ban
3) a compromise where wobbling can only be done 30 percent at a time, since the strongest moves in melee usually deal 30 percent
In this way, wobbling would be no more powerful than a fully charged roy neutral b or any other strong move equivalent. I think this would appease ice climber players that feel inhibited at tournaments that ban wobbling while also eliminating the bitterness that players feel when they are being wobbled and feel helpless.
Since I have no polling power I'll just display a running total to get a better idea of the ratio of opinion
1) Ban:
Reneblade "Their grab game is fine without wobbling."
Lovage "Wobblings for noobs."
Joe_Sumo "Used to play with a guy who didnt even main ic's but would do pretty well on my falco just wobbling."
Vts "♪ Ban eventhough i main IC i see it as a cheap easy kill. ♪"
P.C.Jona "No one wants to play a wobbler."
Bones0 "If the ICs had an otherwise worthless grab game, I might say allow it."
The Good Doctor "Normal CG's end, at least sometime."
Mew 2 King "I hate wobblin."
Cjugs "Wobbling doesn't earn respect from me."
Rhan "Infinites are dumb."
Pr0ject "If its allowed, it'll be ABUSED so hard."
Vysor "I think the game already has enough broken techniques."
KrazyKnux "Ban wobbling, ban sheik's dthrow chaingrab."
Charlesz "Lovage and m2k are always right, they think wobbling is gay."
Vro "The IC's are viable without wobbling."
Jugfingers "I think banning wobbling is legit."
Devil Ray "Wobbling is slightly hard bc of the timing, but it's easier than wave-shining for sure."
BigD! "I'd rather freeze glitch was on above wobbling."
Niko45 "I don't want to watch IC dittos for grand finals of Pound 5, thanks."
D1 "Ban Wobbling 'Nuff Said ^_^."
a13c "ITS DUMB AND DOESNT TAKE THAT MUCH SKILL."
Wo1f "You can get hit with rest at low percents and live. You're basically dead if grabbed at 0%."
Tomacawk "Wobbling creates a massive skew in the skill level of mid to high (but not top) level players."
Smash Mac "Learn more grab de-sync combos like Chu Dat/Uber Ice if you want to be a good IC player."
Bob Money "The question is , is wobbling what we want to see and "play" against?"
Video Game Masta Ricky "Hats down to Uberice for not using wobbling in tournament."
2) Legal:
Wobbles the Phoenix "Come back to me when you win a tournament doing nothing but infinites."
PEEF! "Banning wobbling is one of the biggest mistakes in Melee history."
Fly Amanita "Why take away a tool that helps them cope with their flaws?"
Ballistics "The people who allow wobbling and blizzobbling will be training to never get grabbed."
Dekar173 "At high levels of play, I'd argue that it's not as big of an issue."
PB&J "Space better if u want to win."
Siglemic "Don't get grabbed kids."
PockyD "There's no reason to ban it aside from being 'boring' ."
SpiderBubble "If you get grabbed and wobbled, then you probably had it coming."
Kniht "It's important to learn to space your moves and avoid getting grabbed."
Gustav Wind "I can't think of a good enough argument for it to be banned."
Nintendude119 "Once money is put on the line, you play with as much bull**** as it takes to win."
BlisteringSpeed "IC's with wobbling aren't even a top tier character."
Insane Carzy Guy "Wobbling is totally needed vs peach it helps out much."
Kao Star "There is no reason to govern the game with rules that lie outside the game."
Brightside3684 "Remember when wobbling wasn't banned and IC's were dominating the meta-game?"
Chain Ace "Play 2 win, if its legal deal with it."
gm jack " No need to ban something if the character isn't ****** or even relying on the technique."
Strong Bad "You can ban stages, you can ban items, but you can't ban a specific combo."
X1-12 " IF YOU WANT WOBBLING BANNED, GO WIN TOURNAMENTS WITH IT TO PROVE YOUR POINT"
ToesRUs "As time progresses people will learn to dodge grabs and space better if wobbling is legalized."
Mastermoo420 "Local tourneys just need to man up and make it legal for the sake of the future of Melee."
Pengie "I don't see why wobbling should be banned when none of their other infinites are banned."
Hungry Box "Banning wobbling without banning rest or shine is silly."
Tee Aye Aye "Let ICs wobble peach at least
"
John! "I think it's hilarious that we're nerfing a character that's not even top 5 in the game."
No Cash "banning it would make them much worse than legalizing it would make them better."
The Mana Lord "Where's any kind of evidence to support a ban besides people being *****es?"
Zone "I'm not a ice climber player, but I have to agree with wobbles."
Clonehat "I can see TOs continuing to ban it because of personal preference."
The Jesus "The pro-wobbling camp won me over."
The Unable Tea Table "ICs wouldn't even be top 3 with it legal, so there's no real reason to ban it."
Victra "Stalling ends up being the major factor here with wobbling, not with whether or not its an easy kill."
T-Block "Why are we taking something away from this character?"
Bengalz "So the argument isn't that its broken, but that its boring?"
Adumbrodeus "Seriously though, if wobbling made ICs the top char, I would eat my hat or something."
CA5H "There is not one reason to nerf the IC's."
Rathy Aro "I demand that jiggs be banned before wobbling."
Clone Hat "The problem is that although it's not broken, people will still ban it because it's 'gay'."
Atlus8 "I guess people still haven't manned up!"
1 Winged Angel "Pro wobbling because the ice climbers suck without it."
GunmasterLombardi " I've seen people like Wobbles lose plenty of matches, you just have to be careful."
Metal Reeper "I just think people need to stop whining and learn how to space."
Patrack "The only arguments put out against wobbling is that it looks boring and that it's "undeserved" damage."
MikeHaggarTHAKJB "Americans are so behind the times, still banning wobbling like a bunch of stupid scrubs."
Hax "The reason you guys are pro-ban is because it makes winning a tournament easier for you."
Rick_ "To be fair; In Brawl, when an Ice Climber grabs you, they Chaingrab you to death."
Taj "If Wobbling is so broken, why don't you pick up ICS?"
Ripple "People need to just learn to separate the ICs by grabbing them."
Cosmo! "Infinites aren't actually banned though."
Patrack "Since when do we ban things because characters "don't need it" or "doesn't take much skill."
Macman "Would people be against grab infinites if a really horrid character like ness, yoshi, or pichu had one?"
Puu "Saying that it should stay banned because the upcoming major tournaments have it banned is absurd. "
Everlasting Yahyuzz "The reason people are against it is that normally you always have an option to DO something ."
Dark Hart "Banning Wobbling is like banning shine-spiking."
Sean the Don "Make wobbling legal. Bring it on. Only good things can come from it."
Kirby Kaze "YOU CAN'T FIGHT BLOBBLING WOBBLING AND JABCANCELLOCKLING ALL AT ONCE"
Teczero "It can be annoying but really its not going to make results."
Kyu Puff "I'm fine with using other grab combos, but I kinda care now because I wanna blizzobble *****es."
Sheer Madness "I've been playing competitive smash in FL for like 5 years and have never been wobbled once."
Joeplicate "Wobbling: on!"
Rain(ame) "I already said I didn't care. Give them their Wobbling."
Andale "Im for wobbling tbo. But i think there really should be a compromise."
Eikelmann "It being legal would be interesting for the metagame and promote more diversity within the community"
Kirkq "I can't see how the community wants to ban something that makes a high tier character slightly more viable."
Mike Haggar THAKJB "I think gimps and chaingrabs lack entertainment. Lets ban those!"
EPsilon933 "Wobbling may be boring, but everything else they offer adds a very unique appeal to the metagame."
3) Compromise
Cjugs (If you mess up the wobble, just like a rest, the other player gets a free hit)
CableCho57 (The player who wobbles loses the right to ban a stage)
P.C.Jona (Wobbling allowed to a percent where you cant die from an fsmash or up smash)
Spam Arrows (Wobbling is allowed once per match)
Ballistics (30% Wobbling + attack)
Lunar (The damage cap is where you can survive on DL)
Kniht (Wobbling allowed to 150%, then the IC's must release opponent)
Epsilon933 (It should be legal until 200%)
Taj (When you are wobbled you get to pause quickly)
Andale (No wobbling first game, if ICs lose they can wobble next game)
Magus 420's infinite (headbutt blizzard wait headbutt blizzard wait... so on)
PEEF! 's great compromise:
THE GREAT WOBBLING COMPROMISE IS THIS:
1: The IC player may only use a semi-wobble of 5 tilts (lasts 2 or 3 seconds.)
2: The NON-IC player may not counterpick any non-neutral stage. [/B] (Unless the IC player agrees of course.)
----------------------------
What the IC's lose: The ability to do a 0-death or low%-to-death wobble. The IC player must use only ESCAPEABLE, NON-INFINITE chaingrabs.
What the IC's gain: They may no longer be taken to a ******** stage to get timed out/projectile camped/whatever.
-----------------------------
What the NON-IC player loses: The ability to counterpick a wack stage like Brinstar or RC.
What the NON-IC player gains: The long-lasting, low% wobbles to death that are at the center of this controversy will be ILLEGAL.
Here's why I think people want wobbling banned. For discussion purposes I think it is pertinent to compare the ice climbers to jigglypuff. Although Jigglypuff's rest is also a one move kill, I think that since it happens so fast, people don't mind dying from it. When they get wobbled, they have to watch as the other player slowly butters them up to their deaths and this inability to fight discourages and frustrates them. And don't get me wrong, I understand this and I have been wobbled many times and have also been frustrated by it.
But that frustration is not a legitimate reason to take away an advantage from the ice climbers. Impartiality and fairness should be the focus of rules not preference.
I believe the only legitimate argument against wobbling is that it can be used to stall a match, but stalling is frowned upon in melee and noone would attempt to do this anyway. This problem can be solved by putting a percentage limit on the wobble.
To further embellish on the rest - wobble metaphor, some would say that jiggs' rest is harder to accomplish than wobbling, however, this comes mostly from ignorant players that think wobbling can be achieved with any grab. In fact, wobbling is situational and can only be performed when nana is close at hand to popo, meaning that if you do get wobbled, you were either shield grabbed or grabbed while the ice climbers player was in his comfort zone. So ultimately you messed up somehow. Just as if you get rested its also your fault, because you either did a dash attack on the jigglypuff's shield or didn't DI an upthrow well or missed a tech etc.
Both moves are usually instant kills so if you ban wobbling for that reason you have to ban the rest move as well. They both take roughly the same amount of skill to pull off, or at least are both hard to set up, so you can't use the cheap argument. And the stalling argument can be nullified with a percentage limit.
But even though fairness should be the sole determinant of rules at a tournament, ultimately its up to the community. So I think every tournament host should poll the players on three options.
1) total ban; but be aware this opens doors to other move bans, now that you have started to ban non-glitch incorporating moves
2) no ban
3) a compromise where wobbling can only be done 30 percent at a time, since the strongest moves in melee usually deal 30 percent
In this way, wobbling would be no more powerful than a fully charged roy neutral b or any other strong move equivalent. I think this would appease ice climber players that feel inhibited at tournaments that ban wobbling while also eliminating the bitterness that players feel when they are being wobbled and feel helpless.
Since I have no polling power I'll just display a running total to get a better idea of the ratio of opinion
1) Ban:
Reneblade "Their grab game is fine without wobbling."
Lovage "Wobblings for noobs."
Joe_Sumo "Used to play with a guy who didnt even main ic's but would do pretty well on my falco just wobbling."
Vts "♪ Ban eventhough i main IC i see it as a cheap easy kill. ♪"
P.C.Jona "No one wants to play a wobbler."
Bones0 "If the ICs had an otherwise worthless grab game, I might say allow it."
The Good Doctor "Normal CG's end, at least sometime."
Mew 2 King "I hate wobblin."
Cjugs "Wobbling doesn't earn respect from me."
Rhan "Infinites are dumb."
Pr0ject "If its allowed, it'll be ABUSED so hard."
Vysor "I think the game already has enough broken techniques."
KrazyKnux "Ban wobbling, ban sheik's dthrow chaingrab."
Charlesz "Lovage and m2k are always right, they think wobbling is gay."
Vro "The IC's are viable without wobbling."
Jugfingers "I think banning wobbling is legit."
Devil Ray "Wobbling is slightly hard bc of the timing, but it's easier than wave-shining for sure."
BigD! "I'd rather freeze glitch was on above wobbling."
Niko45 "I don't want to watch IC dittos for grand finals of Pound 5, thanks."
D1 "Ban Wobbling 'Nuff Said ^_^."
a13c "ITS DUMB AND DOESNT TAKE THAT MUCH SKILL."
Wo1f "You can get hit with rest at low percents and live. You're basically dead if grabbed at 0%."
Tomacawk "Wobbling creates a massive skew in the skill level of mid to high (but not top) level players."
Smash Mac "Learn more grab de-sync combos like Chu Dat/Uber Ice if you want to be a good IC player."
Bob Money "The question is , is wobbling what we want to see and "play" against?"
Video Game Masta Ricky "Hats down to Uberice for not using wobbling in tournament."
2) Legal:
Wobbles the Phoenix "Come back to me when you win a tournament doing nothing but infinites."
PEEF! "Banning wobbling is one of the biggest mistakes in Melee history."
Fly Amanita "Why take away a tool that helps them cope with their flaws?"
Ballistics "The people who allow wobbling and blizzobbling will be training to never get grabbed."
Dekar173 "At high levels of play, I'd argue that it's not as big of an issue."
PB&J "Space better if u want to win."
Siglemic "Don't get grabbed kids."
PockyD "There's no reason to ban it aside from being 'boring' ."
SpiderBubble "If you get grabbed and wobbled, then you probably had it coming."
Kniht "It's important to learn to space your moves and avoid getting grabbed."
Gustav Wind "I can't think of a good enough argument for it to be banned."
Nintendude119 "Once money is put on the line, you play with as much bull**** as it takes to win."
BlisteringSpeed "IC's with wobbling aren't even a top tier character."
Insane Carzy Guy "Wobbling is totally needed vs peach it helps out much."
Kao Star "There is no reason to govern the game with rules that lie outside the game."
Brightside3684 "Remember when wobbling wasn't banned and IC's were dominating the meta-game?"
Chain Ace "Play 2 win, if its legal deal with it."
gm jack " No need to ban something if the character isn't ****** or even relying on the technique."
Strong Bad "You can ban stages, you can ban items, but you can't ban a specific combo."
X1-12 " IF YOU WANT WOBBLING BANNED, GO WIN TOURNAMENTS WITH IT TO PROVE YOUR POINT"
ToesRUs "As time progresses people will learn to dodge grabs and space better if wobbling is legalized."
Mastermoo420 "Local tourneys just need to man up and make it legal for the sake of the future of Melee."
Pengie "I don't see why wobbling should be banned when none of their other infinites are banned."
Hungry Box "Banning wobbling without banning rest or shine is silly."
Tee Aye Aye "Let ICs wobble peach at least
"John! "I think it's hilarious that we're nerfing a character that's not even top 5 in the game."
No Cash "banning it would make them much worse than legalizing it would make them better."
The Mana Lord "Where's any kind of evidence to support a ban besides people being *****es?"
Zone "I'm not a ice climber player, but I have to agree with wobbles."
Clonehat "I can see TOs continuing to ban it because of personal preference."
The Jesus "The pro-wobbling camp won me over."
The Unable Tea Table "ICs wouldn't even be top 3 with it legal, so there's no real reason to ban it."
Victra "Stalling ends up being the major factor here with wobbling, not with whether or not its an easy kill."
T-Block "Why are we taking something away from this character?"
Bengalz "So the argument isn't that its broken, but that its boring?"
Adumbrodeus "Seriously though, if wobbling made ICs the top char, I would eat my hat or something."
CA5H "There is not one reason to nerf the IC's."
Rathy Aro "I demand that jiggs be banned before wobbling."
Clone Hat "The problem is that although it's not broken, people will still ban it because it's 'gay'."
Atlus8 "I guess people still haven't manned up!"
1 Winged Angel "Pro wobbling because the ice climbers suck without it."
GunmasterLombardi " I've seen people like Wobbles lose plenty of matches, you just have to be careful."
Metal Reeper "I just think people need to stop whining and learn how to space."
Patrack "The only arguments put out against wobbling is that it looks boring and that it's "undeserved" damage."
MikeHaggarTHAKJB "Americans are so behind the times, still banning wobbling like a bunch of stupid scrubs."
Hax "The reason you guys are pro-ban is because it makes winning a tournament easier for you."
Rick_ "To be fair; In Brawl, when an Ice Climber grabs you, they Chaingrab you to death."
Taj "If Wobbling is so broken, why don't you pick up ICS?"
Ripple "People need to just learn to separate the ICs by grabbing them."
Cosmo! "Infinites aren't actually banned though."
Patrack "Since when do we ban things because characters "don't need it" or "doesn't take much skill."
Macman "Would people be against grab infinites if a really horrid character like ness, yoshi, or pichu had one?"
Puu "Saying that it should stay banned because the upcoming major tournaments have it banned is absurd. "
Everlasting Yahyuzz "The reason people are against it is that normally you always have an option to DO something ."
Dark Hart "Banning Wobbling is like banning shine-spiking."
Sean the Don "Make wobbling legal. Bring it on. Only good things can come from it."
Kirby Kaze "YOU CAN'T FIGHT BLOBBLING WOBBLING AND JABCANCELLOCKLING ALL AT ONCE"
Teczero "It can be annoying but really its not going to make results."
Kyu Puff "I'm fine with using other grab combos, but I kinda care now because I wanna blizzobble *****es."
Sheer Madness "I've been playing competitive smash in FL for like 5 years and have never been wobbled once."
Joeplicate "Wobbling: on!"
Rain(ame) "I already said I didn't care. Give them their Wobbling."
Andale "Im for wobbling tbo. But i think there really should be a compromise."
Eikelmann "It being legal would be interesting for the metagame and promote more diversity within the community"
Kirkq "I can't see how the community wants to ban something that makes a high tier character slightly more viable."
Mike Haggar THAKJB "I think gimps and chaingrabs lack entertainment. Lets ban those!"
EPsilon933 "Wobbling may be boring, but everything else they offer adds a very unique appeal to the metagame."
3) Compromise
Cjugs (If you mess up the wobble, just like a rest, the other player gets a free hit)
CableCho57 (The player who wobbles loses the right to ban a stage)
P.C.Jona (Wobbling allowed to a percent where you cant die from an fsmash or up smash)
Spam Arrows (Wobbling is allowed once per match)
Ballistics (30% Wobbling + attack)
Lunar (The damage cap is where you can survive on DL)
Kniht (Wobbling allowed to 150%, then the IC's must release opponent)
Epsilon933 (It should be legal until 200%)
Taj (When you are wobbled you get to pause quickly)
Andale (No wobbling first game, if ICs lose they can wobble next game)
Magus 420's infinite (headbutt blizzard wait headbutt blizzard wait... so on)
PEEF! 's great compromise:
THE GREAT WOBBLING COMPROMISE IS THIS:
1: The IC player may only use a semi-wobble of 5 tilts (lasts 2 or 3 seconds.)
2: The NON-IC player may not counterpick any non-neutral stage. [/B] (Unless the IC player agrees of course.)
----------------------------
What the IC's lose: The ability to do a 0-death or low%-to-death wobble. The IC player must use only ESCAPEABLE, NON-INFINITE chaingrabs.
What the IC's gain: They may no longer be taken to a ******** stage to get timed out/projectile camped/whatever.
-----------------------------
What the NON-IC player loses: The ability to counterpick a wack stage like Brinstar or RC.
What the NON-IC player gains: The long-lasting, low% wobbles to death that are at the center of this controversy will be ILLEGAL.
