Wobbling Compromise

[P.C. Jona]

did u read g-reg's story about back in the day at a FC?

ill post it for u

i once played a wobbler at FC a few years back. he was from florida and i dont remember his name. it was on FD, and he literally wobbled me every stock. 1st two stocks were 2 grabs, which ended in a long wobbles to usmash. because im the greatest player of all time, i quickly brought it back with a barrage of bairs, dairs, and knees, and tied the game at 2 stocks. without the wobbles, he was pretty 2nd rate and crappy.

once again he lands a grab, and starts wobbling me. his friend from FL watching (XIF) comes up to the TV and says "he'll never mess up, it never happens" and LITERALLY turns the TV off for about 15-20 seconds. im like wtf man? i call over the pool-runner or whatever and he finally turns it back on. lo and behold, i am STILL getting wobbled. he usmashes, i die. i then take another stock rather easily, and its 1-1 and he grabs me again.

i had accepted my fate for the time being, until he hits me with an early Fsmash at around 120 or so out of wobbles, which i DI perfectly and survive in the top right corner. i downB recover while he grabs edge, proud of his victory, and i land just BARELY on the tip of the stage. the wobbler, whos guard is down from the thought of apparent victory, shouts out "WHAT?!?!" as i recover safely. i then grab him and knee him for the victory. moral of the story, i would annihilate the peef.

 

[Wobbles]

I am friends with the guy who did it to him. G Reg won anyhow. Big deal.

Guess what? Just because G-reg nearly lost to an IC using the infinite doesn't make it broken or unfair. Just because you 3-stocked your friend and you've never played ICs before doesn't make it unfair. You know how you determine if it's broken? If after substantial experience and testing, the best players cannot find a way to defeat a tactic and it becomes the most dominant strategy in the game.

Can you beat an ICs who infinites? Yes. What's more, you can do it without any variation in your original strategy. Game-flow does not change with the presence of the infinite, all it does is decrease your margin of error.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Good Doctor: Fun fact, I was screwing up my infinites and I probably got at least 3 stocks per game without getting to land sync'ed grabs at all. You have no argument. Don't post without one. And don't say that PEEF's performance is a reason the infinite should be banned, because he took last place in the bracket.

Roneblaster: It's not really a question of whether the character is special or I'm special. It's a question of whether the technique is inherently broken. Prove to me that it is. Prove to me that it dominates the metagame and wrecks competitive play or degenerates it. It doesn't, by the way. And that 100% of grabs = KO is something people who know nothing about the ICs like to claim.

Although yes, the character DOES matter. If Marth had this we would ban it in a heartbeat, because incredible dash-dance + longest non-grapple grab range + grab infinite = absolutely unfair. If Sheik had it, we'd ban it. How situational and avoidable the technique is is based on the character who has it, and that in turn determines whether or not you can call it broken.

"Their grab game is fine without wobbling." I thought the character had nothing to do with it?

PC: So what? People who become overly reliant on the infinite get a boost in skill at the expense of predictability and the advance of other skills. Every time you practice one skill you do it in lieu of practicing another. Some skills are more worth practicing than others. So what if a bad player beats other bad players? Why do you care? What "good" people are you saying that some crummy scrub can beat? People who lose to an obvious and predictable tactic aren't good. Sorry.



I cannot begin to tell you how wrong this is. If somebody is "breezing by" you with this ONE technique and they're really as awful as you say they are, then

YOU.
ARE.
BAD.

I had heard that you wobbled Kels 6 out of 8 stocks....
We can all agree that PEEF performed badly as both a player and TO
And just because it's predictable, doesn't make it bad by any means...

 

[Roneblaster]

Roneblaster: It's not really a question of whether the character is special or I'm special. It's a question of whether the technique is inherently broken. Prove to me that it is. Prove to me that it dominates the metagame and wrecks competitive play or degenerates it. It doesn't, by the way. And that 100% of grabs = KO is something people who know nothing about the ICs like to claim.

Although yes, the character DOES matter. If Marth had this we would ban it in a heartbeat, because incredible dash-dance + longest non-grapple grab range + grab infinite = absolutely unfair. If Sheik had it, we'd ban it. How situational and avoidable the technique is is based on the character who has it, and that in turn determines whether or not you can call it broken.

"Their grab game is fine without wobbling." I thought the character had nothing to do with it?

that wasnt aimed @ you. it was aimed @ people who think wobbling is fine.


it is inherently broken. its a guarenteed kill 100% of the time. its not 1 move, its a series of moves that is inescapable. what i meant was that if (no wobbling) the IC's player doesnt **** up the; best situation you can hope for is to smash di of out dthrow dair, but eat a dsmash anyway.

if you cant cut it without that, gtfo.

btw i thought i'd hate you, but i actually like...you? i guess. idk, i mean you're easy to cheer for, you show emotion when you play, which is nice. and your funny hand animations made me giggle.

still though:

wobbling - not legit.

yeah and to clear up what the above poster said.

set 1 kels didnt get grabbed once.

the next set kels got wobbled....alot....i have the video, and you'll all see it soon enough.

 

[cjugs]

they ARE special. there's ****ing two of 'em

I think i woke up the family from laughing on that one.

Wobbling doesn't earn respect from me other players who work they're way up in a tourny from paying a lot of people some good some bad don't have the gift of taking a stock of a grab mango m2k have 0 to deathed people before on one grab before but it took more skill and chance than a guaranteed infinite which is done a hundred times more often than a 0 to death combo. I heard from a friend mango saying he is the best and he gets grabbed. IC grab game is way good enough and if wobbling was theyre only thing and it didn't work on the whole cast on any stage other than RC then maybe it wouldn't be bad.

 

[P.C. Jona]

I am friends with the guy who did it to him. G Reg won anyhow. Big deal.

Guess what? Just because G-reg nearly lost to an IC using the infinite doesn't make it broken or unfair. Just because you 3-stocked your friend and you've never played ICs before doesn't make it unfair. You know how you determine if it's broken? If after substantial experience and testing, the best players cannot find a way to defeat a tactic and it becomes the most dominant strategy in the game.

Can you beat an ICs who infinites? Yes. What's more, you can do it without any variation in your original strategy. Game-flow does not change with the presence of the infinite, all it does is decrease your margin of error.

i dont approve

your obviously for wobbling, being wobbles

but idk

80% of the characters in this game rely on grabs to get their games going, to build up their percent to go for kills

to get grabbed at 0 by some random grab that took no skill is absurd

if you played yourself you would understand

 

[Wobbles]

So you're telling me that Kels fell into my sync'ed grabs left and right and it's the infinite's fault he lost? He was playing the matchup wrong, getting predicted and letting himself get caught by a character against whom you are NOT SUPPOSED TO GET GRABBED BY PERIOD AT ALL EVER, and somehow the infinite is the cause?

Does not compute. I got advice from multiple people on how to fight Kels, how to adapt to his playstyle, and I switched my game up in order to beat him the second time around. He did not adapt quickly enough and THAT is why he lost. At least, that's what I'm forced to conclude, because you're insisting to me that I already had tons of deadly CGs that would have KO'ed him anyhow.

 

[pockyD]

that wasnt aimed @ you. it was aimed @ people who think wobbling is fine.


it is inherently broken. its a guarenteed kill 100% of the time. its not 1 move, its a series of moves that is inescapable. what i meant was that if (no wobbling) the IC's player doesnt **** up the; best situation you can hope for is to smash di of out dthrow dair, but eat a dsmash anyway.

if you cant cut it without that, gtfo.

btw i thought i'd hate you, but i actually like...you? i guess. idk, i mean you're easy to cheer for, you show emotion when you play, which is nice. and your funny hand animations made me giggle.

still though:

wobbling - not legit.

yeah and to clear up what the above poster said.

set 1 kels didnt get grabbed once.

the next set kels got wobbled....alot....i have the video, and you'll all see it soon enough.

you're making up ban criteria to suit the issue, not applying an existing set of ban criteria to the subject at hand

i'd like to hear your general thoughts on what would make a tactic/character/stage banworthy without resorting to specifics; i'm not confident you'll be able to coherently define one that covers wobbling but does not cover other tactics and isn't really 20 different cases combined

 

[Roneblaster]

jona i found my double downsmash, im about to upload it and make it a video response, get on youtube.

you're making up ban criteria to suit the issue, not applying an existing set of ban criteria to the subject at hand

i'd like to hear your general thoughts on what would make a tactic/character/stage banworthy without resorting to specifics; i'm not confident you'll be able to coherently define one that covers wobbling but does not cover other tactics and isn't really 20 different cases combined

inescapable grab combos in which the person being "comboed" never actually gets throw.

do i win?

also wobbles, if you were talking to me in the last post. tell where i said "kels lost because of wobbling"

 

[P.C. Jona]

you're making up ban criteria to suit the issue, not applying an existing set of ban criteria to the subject at hand

i'd like to hear your general thoughts on what would make a tactic/character/stage banworthy without resorting to specifics; i'm not confident you'll be able to coherently define one that covers wobbling but does not cover other tactics and isn't really 20 different cases combined

speak english




or shut up

 

[The Good Doctor]

So you're telling me that Kels fell into my sync'ed grabs left and right and it's the infinite's fault he lost? He was playing the matchup wrong, getting predicted and letting himself get caught by a character against whom you are NOT SUPPOSED TO GET GRABBED BY PERIOD AT ALL EVER, and somehow the infinite is the cause?

Does not compute. I got advice from multiple people on how to fight Kels, how to adapt to his playstyle, and I switched my game up in order to beat him the second time around. He did not adapt quickly enough and THAT is why he lost. At least, that's what I'm forced to conclude, because you're insisting to me that I already had tons of deadly CGs that would have KO'ed him anyhow.

If you wobble someone 6 times, and think you won because you outplayed him to that massive of a degree, i think you have a problem.

Normal CG's end, at least sometime. Most of the time it doesn't end with a stock, or over 100% damage from 0%. Also if you think you would beaten him just as easily without it like you're applying, you must be trolling...

 

[pockyD]

inescapable grab combos in which the person being "comboed" never actually gets throw.

do i win?

that doesn't explain WHY such a condition makes a tactic banworthy

speak english




or shut up

back to school eh

 

[Roneblaster]

Ah ok, i wasnt sure what you asked, its past my bed time.

because, this is a competitive fighting game.

5 minutes of practice shouldnt give you a giant advantage.

 

[pockyD]

Ah ok, i wasnt sure what you asked, its past my bed time.

because, this is a competitive fighting game.

5 minutes of practice shouldnt give you a giant advantage.

shield grabbing is learned in under 5 mins and makes a HUGE difference at the level where it's learned

 

[Wobbles]

i dont approve

your obviously for wobbling, being wobbles

but idk

80% of the characters in this game rely on grabs to get their games going, to build up their percent to go for kills

to get grabbed at 0 by some random grab that took no skill is absurd

if you played yourself you would understand

I know that I know more about my character than almost every other player in this game. I know that I've been playing seriously for nearly 6 years and have more experience than most players active in the scene today. I know that I've had the privilege of playing some of the best players this game has to offer and learning from them. I know that I've spent more time studying, reading about, and practicing Smash than many other people.

So it doesn't really come as a surprise to me that I'm able to land lots of grabs on lots of different people when I bring out my full arsenal of tricks and setups. It also doesn't surprise me that people will use characters much better than ICs, and then they play better than me too, and in most games against them I won't get to lay my parka mittens on them a single time and I have to win by landing up-air and d-smash for five minutes.

 

[P.C. Jona]

back to school eh

noooo theres a video for it

im looking for it

ahh i cant find it

 

[Roneblaster]

shield grabbing is learned in under 5 mins and makes a HUGE difference at the level where it's learned

grabbing some1 isnt a game breaker.

its what you do with the grab.

keep trying though.

 

[pockyD]

grabbing some1 isnt a game breaker.

its what you do with the grab.

keep trying though.

i definitely thought shield grabbing was a gamebreaker when people were foreign to l-canceling and even proper spacing

it made you near unassailable, even if you only got 10% out of each grab

 

[Wobbles]

If you wobble someone 6 times, and think you won because you outplayed him to that massive of a degree, i think you have a problem.

Normal CG's end, at least sometime. Most of the time it doesn't end with a stock, or over 100% damage from 0%. Also if you think you would beaten him just as easily without it like you're applying, you must be trolling...

I think he let the character with the strongest grab game grab him at least 6 times during the set. And I think if you or almost any other player in this game tried to beat Kels with ICs, you might not ever see his percent counter hit the double digits. Kels is good. Grabs don't magically happen against good players.

And I'm not implying anything. I'm *directly stating* that a big reason he won the first set is because *he* outplayed *me* and avoided grabs, and that the primary reason I won our second set is because I adapted and landed those grabs. In the hypothetical situation that infinites were banned, I would still have had access to massive damage output as a result. I'm not applying anything. Or implying it, either.

 

[Ballistics]

I'm liking these compromise ideas, but I still think mine is the best, 30% wobbling and then you can do a forward smash or upsmash too, so probably 45% in all. This would mean if the person had 0% you would have to get at least two wobbles off to kill them.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I think he let the character with the strongest grab game grab him at least 6 times during the set. And I think if you or almost any other player in this game tried to beat Kels with ICs, you might not ever see his percent counter hit the double digits. Kels is good. Grabs don't magically happen against good players.

And I'm not implying anything. I'm *directly stating* that a big reason he won the first set is because *he* outplayed *me* and avoided grabs, and that the primary reason I won our second set is because I adapted and landed those grabs. In the hypothetical situation that infinites were banned, I would still have had access to massive damage output as a result. I'm not applying anything. Or implying it, either.

Sorry i misspelled, i just found my cigs so maybe i can make more sense now. Those 6 grabs most likely wouldn't have ended his stock. Even if you do damage we both know Fox can kill pretty easily as well. I'm not saying you would have lost the second set.

 

[P.C. Jona]

I know that I know more about my character than almost every other player in this game. I know that I've been playing seriously for nearly 6 years and have more experience than most players active in the scene today. I know that I've had the privilege of playing some of the best players this game has to offer and learning from them. I know that I've spent more time studying, reading about, and practicing Smash than many other people.

So it doesn't really come as a surprise to me that I'm able to land lots of grabs on lots of different people when I bring out my full arsenal of tricks and setups. It also doesn't surprise me that people will use characters much better than ICs, and then they play better than me too, and in most games against them I won't get to lay my parka mittens on them a single time and I have to win by landing up-air and d-smash for five minutes.

bro i totally respect that

ive seen you play without wobbling and its cool

but then idk once the wobbling starts its just like ok fast foward plz

i just prefer it banned.

plus with it banned ic players should be better cuz they cant rely on that so they have to actually use their brains

watever tho i dont host anything so whats the point

at the end of the day its up to the guy that set up the tourney

 

[pockyD]

Sorry i misspelled, i just found my cigs so maybe i can make more sense now. Those 6 grabs most likely wouldn't have ended his stock. Even if you do damage we both know Fox can kill pretty easily as well. I'm not saying you would have lost the second set.

Of course wobbling made a difference! Any useful tactic does

We could make the opposite argument and say that if Kels couldn't use the shine (disclaimer: I didn't actually watch the set so I'm just making a guess here), the result of the other set could have been different as well. The fact that it changed the outcome doesn't speak to it being broken.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

My entire stance on this whole issue is that I don't see any reason to nerf a character that isn't broken.

Regardless of how powerful wobbling is and how easy it is to do, at the end of the day, there are still much better characters than ICs with wobbling. ICs still lose badly to Peach. ICs still struggle with funky stages. Why take away a tool that helps them cope with their flaws?

 

[Roneblaster]

why not? we ban infinites or made them impossible to do.

sorry that your character sucks.

 

[P.C. Jona]

because theyre too good

i need to get out of this convo lol

ic's players are uniting hahah

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's not my job to explain why not. The onus is on you to explain why something should be banned and also to justify your ban criteria.

 

[Roneblaster]

its banned in alot if not most tournaments.

peef opening his mouth isnt enough to change everything.

im goin to bed jona, you stay. theres only like 5 IC players jona. you got this.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Of course wobbling made a difference! Any useful tactic does

We could make the opposite argument and say that if Kels couldn't use the shine (disclaimer: I didn't actually watch the set so I'm just making a guess here), the result of the other set could have been different as well. The fact that it changed the outcome doesn't speak to it being broken.

He seems to be taking the stance that wobbling didn't make a difference. Since he is giving all the credit to himself and none to the tactic. Any good player recognizes how good shine and rest are, you guys just don't either understand or refuse to understand that wobbling is the single most game changing element that this game has to offer thus far that intelligent people are in favor of....

And of course MOST IC players don't want their infinite banned...

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the damage cap should be at a point where you can survive on DL lol

so thatd be... 999%? lol jk. idk what the kill percent from a grab is on dl but its a good idea.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

its banned in alot if not most tournaments.

circular reasoning

 

[Roneblaster]

It's not my job

then leave.

 

[pockyD]

He seems to be taking the stance that wobbling didn't make a difference. Since he is giving all the credit to himself and none to the tactic. Any good player recognizes how good shine and rest are, you guys just don't either understand or refuse to understand that wobbling is the single most game changing element that this game has to offer thus far that intelligent people are in favor of....

You're misinterpreting it; he's explaining how he centered his gameplay around exploiting the technique (working to land synced grabs) rather than being able to perform the technique at will (you seem to think he was able to just magically grab fox YYG style whenever he wants)

I'm fairly certain that wobbling doesn't even approach being the most game changing element; falco's laser, fox's shine, marth's fsmash, sheik's dthrow, etc. ALL change their matchups significantly more when removed... just consider the way pal sheiks play relative to the way ntsc sheiks play

And of course MOST IC players don't want their infinite banned...

...and of course most non-IC players are looking for the easy way out and want to ban it instead of working around it

this isn't an argument for either side, it's just natural that everyone has their own self-interest in mind though

"its not my job" then leave.

The point is that wobbling-legal should be considered the status quo; note that rulesets focus almost exclusively on what should not be allowed rather than what should (with the assumption that everything in the game should be legal unless deemed unfit)... if you start with the assumption that X tactic is banned, there's no real way to justify unbanning it since 'it's already banned and everything's fine'

 

[Roneblaster]

he saying its not his job to explain why it should be legal. then whys he here? he isnt contributing. just leave. you dont have anything to say that wobbles hasnt already fly.

edit

night all. cant wait to see where this thread has gone by the time i wake up.

 

[pockyD]

what he means is that the burden of proof is on the people who want it banned

if there are zero arguments on both sides, status quo (wobbling isn't banned) should hold, so he feels that his job is only to make counterpoints; if you make no points, he can make no counterpoints

but yes, you'll usually find that most 'pro-wobbling' players will end up saying the exact same thing since it's a very coherent, unified perspective, whereas the pro-ban crowd has a more fractured basis behind their arguments (incidentally, which almost all revolve around the technique being 'unique' rather than it being 'broken')

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Maybe the way I worded that was a little misleading, but the second sentence of that post is what I meant to convey.

 

[Winston]

He seems to be taking the stance that wobbling didn't make a difference. Since he is giving all the credit to himself and none to the tactic. Any good player recognizes how good shine and rest are, you guys just don't either understand or refuse to understand that wobbling is the single most game changing element that this game has to offer thus far that intelligent people are in favor of....

And of course MOST IC players don't want their infinite banned...

No, I'm sure Wobbles understands that wobbling helped him win. He wouldn't have used it if it didn't help him win.

The thing is that it helped him, but not to a gamebreaking degree. ICs + wobbling aren't even advantaged against Fox in the matchup, so it's nowhere near gamebreaking. So why should it be banned?

As far as "the single most game changing element" the game has to offer...

I don't play ICs myself, but I'd be willing to bet that most ICs player would be pretty happy if they couldn't wobble and fox couldn't use the shine.

Personally I really hate seeing wobbling in matches, but at the moment I can't think of a good enough argument for it to be banned. Some of the arguments you guys are using to say it should be banned are just terrible.

 

[Pi]

Wobbling is stupid & I lose respect for people who use it. But it's not broken.

Learning to avoid wobbling (getting grabbed in general) is something that will carry over in all of your matchups, you just get punished much harder in the IC matchup.

I think honestly that it's the feeling of not being able to control your character that gets to people. Like, they have you, they grabbed you, and you are completely in their control. At least with marth grabs you feel like you have some semblance of control because he releases you (fox/falco vs. marth).

It's important to learn to space your moves and avoid getting grabbed.

Oh
Here's a compromise
If you wobble in a grab, you can't kill from that grab. You also can't go above 150% with the grab you wobbled in.

So you can grab & wobble someone up to 150 (or maybe 120 or something), but you have to release em and kill them with something else. And when I say release I mean give them full control of their character back.

 

[pockyD]

something you guys need to consider when proposing percentage limits or kill limits is how you plan on enforcing that when there are 30 simultaneous matches being played

of course, this being on top of first justifying why you think such a 'compromise'/limit needs to exist in the first place

 

[Mew2King]

i hate wobblin