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- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
ha can cg spacies at like 250% plus or minus a decent amount iirc
X1-12
Smash Champion
he can d-throw tech-chase, but its not very good...
unknown522
Some guy
wtf, kirby is not a girl...
Anyways, kirby v falco is impossible. Run away and laser ***** kirby so bad. Kirby has a pretty slow run speed, and no good projectiles on top of his swallow being really slow and crappy as a move. Also kirby having a really crappy jump makes it incredibly difficult to catch falco, where all he needs to do is laser (pretty much the same as a lot of his matchups lol, but it's worse for kirby).
Also with this zelda v GAW business, falco dieing at like 2 from zelda's kicks is pretty bad. Even when he trades, he always trades down. Her d-smash is surprisingly a pretty good edgeguard setup as well, though they both **** each other really hard offstage.
I remember going falco vs you at pound 4 in pools. The matchup is pretty bad.just my 2 cents:
falco >> luigi, considering the current falco metagame and such..
I used to think it was more or less an even match-up, but the beastliness of falcos nowadays is pretty rough on luigi. I've only played it a few times since I came back to melee and it hasn't been pretty lol. (used to love the match-uplol )
edit: btw I'm talking about falcos at a real high level.. otherwise I think luigi dunks on other falcos
**** straight.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I thought falco had the most resistance.
At least based on mewtwos upthrows with no DI. When I went through all the upthrow percentages I got this:
1 Jiggly Puff --------------------86-92
2 Zelda-------------------------- 92-98
3 Samus------------------------- 95-100
4 Luigi---------------------------- 95-100
5 Peach ------------------------- 96-101
6 Kirby--------------------------- 96-101
7 Mewtwo -----------------------97-102
8 I.C. Popo---------------------- 98-103*
9 Game & Watch--------------- 101-106
10 Dr. Mario ---------------------101-106
11 Mario --------------------------101-106
12 Ness--------------------------- 103-109
13 Yoshi ---------------------------107-112
14 Pichu --------------------------107-113
15 Pikachu ------------------------108-114
16 Bowser -------------------------116-121
17 Marth ---------------------------117-122
18 Young Link ----------------------117-123
19 Link -----------------------------117-123
20 Ganondorf ----------------------118-124
21 Sheik -----------------------------118-124
22 Dk ---------------------------------128-134
23 Roy --------------------------------128-134
24 C.Falcon -------------------------151-156
25 Fox------------------------------ 152-157
26 Falco ----------------------------159-165
This is FD, no DI. The second number is with the upthrow completely lvl 9 stale.
Upthrow does 12.% btw when its fresh. it does 6.5 stale
Idk there may be some difference between throws and physical attacks or something. Or maybe the upsmash hit with diff parts of the hitbox
*Nana is a bit more, only because she seems to input DI from being away from popo, But with perfect DI they should be the same.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Updated:
Falco = Puff
Falco = Sheik
Falco >> Pika
Falco >> Luigi
Now for Jigglypuff. Match-ups in brackets are what we were discussing before.
Jigglypuff < Fox (Jigglypuff = Fox)
Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff = Falco
Jigglypuff = Falcon
Jigglypuff = Marth
Jigglypuff = Peach (Jigglypuff > Peach)
Jigglypuff > DK
Jigglypuff > Ganondorf
Jigglypuff > Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff > Link
Jigglypuff > Pikachu
Jigglypuff > Sheik
Jigglypuff > Young Link
Jigglypuff >> Bowser
Jigglypuff >> Kirby
Jigglypuff >> Luigi (Jigglypuff > Luigi)
Jigglypuff >> Mario
Jigglypuff >> Mewtwo
Jigglypuff >> Mr. G&W
Jigglypuff >> Roy
Jigglypuff >> Samus
Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Jigglypuff >> Zelda
Jigglypuff >>> Ness
Jigglypuff >>> Pichu
My opinions:
Jigglypuff > Falcon. While Falcon can kill Jigglypuff early with the knee and is significantly faster, Jigglypuff should win the exchanges. Bair, Nair and Fair can handle most of Falcon arsenal and when Falcon is off the stage, he should be dead. Rest is risky because a missed Rest is a Falcon Punch (which usually is a stock). The main thing though is that Falcon's main moves against Jigglypuff are aerials. While Falcon is quick, when he dashes into a jump, he has too much inertia to slow down if needed, while Jigglypuff has much more air control, so spacing is in Jigglypuff's favor. Falcon also gets comboed fairly well, but it's hard to combo with Falcon. Dairs and Uairs can combo somewhat, but again, Jigglypuff should win most of the aerial exchanges.
Jigglypuff >> DK. DK is kind of like Falcon in the match-up; he wants aerials, particularly Bair and Uair, but Jigglypuff has better aerial spacing and priority. DK does have range though, but his moves are slow. DK's huge size also makes him easy to combo with Bair, Fair and Uair, and Rests are easy to get, though a missed one is a Giant Punch. DK's throws are somewhat effective, but he can't really do the Uair combos. Bthrow can kill somewhat early on the horizontal though, but DK has a poor grab game against Jigglypuff.
Falco = Puff
Falco = Sheik
Falco >> Pika
Falco >> Luigi
Now for Jigglypuff. Match-ups in brackets are what we were discussing before.
Jigglypuff < Fox (Jigglypuff = Fox)
Jigglypuff = Doc
Jigglypuff = Falco
Jigglypuff = Falcon
Jigglypuff = Marth
Jigglypuff = Peach (Jigglypuff > Peach)
Jigglypuff > DK
Jigglypuff > Ganondorf
Jigglypuff > Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff > Link
Jigglypuff > Pikachu
Jigglypuff > Sheik
Jigglypuff > Young Link
Jigglypuff >> Bowser
Jigglypuff >> Kirby
Jigglypuff >> Luigi (Jigglypuff > Luigi)
Jigglypuff >> Mario
Jigglypuff >> Mewtwo
Jigglypuff >> Mr. G&W
Jigglypuff >> Roy
Jigglypuff >> Samus
Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Jigglypuff >> Zelda
Jigglypuff >>> Ness
Jigglypuff >>> Pichu
My opinions:
Jigglypuff > Falcon. While Falcon can kill Jigglypuff early with the knee and is significantly faster, Jigglypuff should win the exchanges. Bair, Nair and Fair can handle most of Falcon arsenal and when Falcon is off the stage, he should be dead. Rest is risky because a missed Rest is a Falcon Punch (which usually is a stock). The main thing though is that Falcon's main moves against Jigglypuff are aerials. While Falcon is quick, when he dashes into a jump, he has too much inertia to slow down if needed, while Jigglypuff has much more air control, so spacing is in Jigglypuff's favor. Falcon also gets comboed fairly well, but it's hard to combo with Falcon. Dairs and Uairs can combo somewhat, but again, Jigglypuff should win most of the aerial exchanges.
Jigglypuff >> DK. DK is kind of like Falcon in the match-up; he wants aerials, particularly Bair and Uair, but Jigglypuff has better aerial spacing and priority. DK does have range though, but his moves are slow. DK's huge size also makes him easy to combo with Bair, Fair and Uair, and Rests are easy to get, though a missed one is a Giant Punch. DK's throws are somewhat effective, but he can't really do the Uair combos. Bthrow can kill somewhat early on the horizontal though, but DK has a poor grab game against Jigglypuff.
xbombr
Smash Ace
I don't see how Jigglypuff is anything less than even with Fox...
The vertical kill moves are great and everything but you're reliant on a relatively high % jab or them screwing up their spacing and getting over you for long enough to utilize them. She can essentially duck your laser game.
Utilt, Uthrow, UAir, and Pound all easily combo into rest. Her gimp game is perfect for the long charge up on his recovery. With good prediction skills it's not that hard to hit them out of a phantasm, even if they don't die, Fox falls below the stage and Jiggs uses 1 extra jump to go down and hit him out of his FireFox, this can essentially be done from any % that Fox can be thrown or hit offstage.
Jigg's BAir > Fox's approaching moveset. Fox has a terrible grab game on her as well. It's hard to grab Jiggs and Uthrow is somewhat useless. Fthrow and Bthrow don't set up for anything. Dthrow is alright, but the risk you take by grabbing and the rare chance of success don't really make it worth it.
Fox has to movement camp -> punish, make use of the occasional approach opportunity, and use a laser game that Jiggs can just duck under or float around over. The lasers don't even stun so she can still harass you with BAirs.
Fox obviously has a great punishment game vs. Jiggs though and that is definitely worth mentioning. Fox is also probably among the easiest characters to kill Jiggs with and is well suited for camping her. He moves around fast enough to force the misspacings he needs to use his air/ground games. Jiggs falls from shine and has crappy techs so that's really good too. Fox also has one of, if not, the best rest punishes in the game. He's really good at making rest unsafe as long as he doesn't fall into her stupid crap and it's actually a risk to rest him. Him dying out of the side of the screen allows him to even up the score even if she did kill him, so resting isn't necessarily a great option to take all the time since if Jiggs has enough damage on her it just trades stocks with good DI.
Everything I said could have been wrong, but I play with a Jiggs on a regular basis and use Fox a lot since Sheik is pretty bad vs. Jiggs and this is how I see it.
The vertical kill moves are great and everything but you're reliant on a relatively high % jab or them screwing up their spacing and getting over you for long enough to utilize them. She can essentially duck your laser game.
Utilt, Uthrow, UAir, and Pound all easily combo into rest. Her gimp game is perfect for the long charge up on his recovery. With good prediction skills it's not that hard to hit them out of a phantasm, even if they don't die, Fox falls below the stage and Jiggs uses 1 extra jump to go down and hit him out of his FireFox, this can essentially be done from any % that Fox can be thrown or hit offstage.
Jigg's BAir > Fox's approaching moveset. Fox has a terrible grab game on her as well. It's hard to grab Jiggs and Uthrow is somewhat useless. Fthrow and Bthrow don't set up for anything. Dthrow is alright, but the risk you take by grabbing and the rare chance of success don't really make it worth it.
Fox has to movement camp -> punish, make use of the occasional approach opportunity, and use a laser game that Jiggs can just duck under or float around over. The lasers don't even stun so she can still harass you with BAirs.
Fox obviously has a great punishment game vs. Jiggs though and that is definitely worth mentioning. Fox is also probably among the easiest characters to kill Jiggs with and is well suited for camping her. He moves around fast enough to force the misspacings he needs to use his air/ground games. Jiggs falls from shine and has crappy techs so that's really good too. Fox also has one of, if not, the best rest punishes in the game. He's really good at making rest unsafe as long as he doesn't fall into her stupid crap and it's actually a risk to rest him. Him dying out of the side of the screen allows him to even up the score even if she did kill him, so resting isn't necessarily a great option to take all the time since if Jiggs has enough damage on her it just trades stocks with good DI.
Everything I said could have been wrong, but I play with a Jiggs on a regular basis and use Fox a lot since Sheik is pretty bad vs. Jiggs and this is how I see it.
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
prepare for QQ
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
puff has the lowest duck
falcos practice their shl heights by learning to hit a ducking puff consistantly.
can be done, good falcos will do it.
falcos practice their shl heights by learning to hit a ducking puff consistantly.
can be done, good falcos will do it.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
looks like the fast fall chart to me... perhaps m2's uthrow isn't effected by weight?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
jigglypuff = falco?
**** this thread
**** this thread
moogle
Smash Ace
As far as I know, the vertical knockback of all throws is dependent on fall speed only, not character weight. So yes, Samus dies before Pichu does to up-throw (Mewtwo, Roy, Link, Marth, etc.)
N64
Smash Champion
Jiggs >> Pika.
Jiggs' aerial reach beats out pretty much everything pikachu has, and she's one of the only chars that can effectively edgeguard him.
Jiggs' aerial reach beats out pretty much everything pikachu has, and she's one of the only chars that can effectively edgeguard him.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
PLUR & Niko <3
If it's so hard ask Zhu how i 2 stocked him on YS at pound 4 in a friendly!
then he went peach and 3 stocked me >_> lol
i'm just sayin.
The matchup definitely isn't stupid. I agree it's definitely in Falco's advantage, but it's not impossible.
If it's so hard ask Zhu how i 2 stocked him on YS at pound 4 in a friendly!
then he went peach and 3 stocked me >_> lol
i'm just sayin.
Magus420
Smash Master
Throw knockback in general is completely unaffected by weight. The only thing it does on them is affect the speed of some throws which can make the thrower lag more/less.
[collapse="Top Fall Speed (and Vertical Throw Survivability) Chart"]Melee's top falling speeds and also their vertical throw survivability since throw knockback ignores weight. Since you get to top speed in a small fraction of a second, fall speed acceleration does almost nothing on vertical KOs and is only relevant on very short knockbacks. This is the % that M2's u-throw KOs on DL64:
196 - Falco
188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon
165 - Roy > Donkey Kong
154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser
144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi
139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario
133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda
121 - Jigglypuff[/collapse][collapse="Vertical Attack Survivability Chart"]Now this is how long they live vertically to attacks which is a combination of weight and fall speed, using Captain Falcon's stomp on Final Destination as the measurement (version 1.0, and Fountain of Dreams was used in cases of a tie):
171 - Captain Falcon
170
169
168
167
166
165
164 - Donkey Kong
163
162
161
160
159
158
157 - Falco
156 - Bowser
155
154
153
152 - Ganondorf
151
150 - Link
149
148
147 - Yoshi > Fox
146
145
144
143
142
141 - Roy
140 - Sheik
139
138
137 - Dr Mario = Mario
136 - Samus > Marth
135 - Young Link
134 - Ness
133 - Luigi
132
131
130
129
128
127
126 - Ice Climbers = Pikachu
125
124 - Peach
123
122 - Zelda
121 - Mewtwo
120
119
118
117
116
115
114
113
112
111 - Kirby
110
109
108
107
106 - Pichu = Mr Game & Watch
105
104
103
102
101
100
099
098 - Jigglypuff[/collapse][collapse="Weight Chart with Fall Speed Colors"]Here's the Melee weight list, but with the warm/cold fall speed colors. Though there is more emphasis on fall speed, notice how generally the ones with the warmer colors that are also closer to the top here are the ones that live longer vertically:
117 - Bowser
116
115
114 - Donkey Kong
113
112
111
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
107
106
105
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
103
102
101
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
099
098
097
096
095
094 - Ness
093
092
091
090 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
089
088 - Ice Climbers
087 - Marth
086
085 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
084
083
082
081
080 - Falco / Pikachu
079
078
077
076
075 - Fox
074
073
072
071
070 - Kirby
069
068
067
066
065
064
063
062
061
060 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
059
058
057
056
055 - Pichu[/collapse]
[collapse="Top Fall Speed (and Vertical Throw Survivability) Chart"]Melee's top falling speeds and also their vertical throw survivability since throw knockback ignores weight. Since you get to top speed in a small fraction of a second, fall speed acceleration does almost nothing on vertical KOs and is only relevant on very short knockbacks. This is the % that M2's u-throw KOs on DL64:
196 - Falco
188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon
165 - Roy > Donkey Kong
154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser
144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi
139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario
133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda
121 - Jigglypuff[/collapse][collapse="Vertical Attack Survivability Chart"]Now this is how long they live vertically to attacks which is a combination of weight and fall speed, using Captain Falcon's stomp on Final Destination as the measurement (version 1.0, and Fountain of Dreams was used in cases of a tie):
171 - Captain Falcon
170
169
168
167
166
165
164 - Donkey Kong
163
162
161
160
159
158
157 - Falco
156 - Bowser
155
154
153
152 - Ganondorf
151
150 - Link
149
148
147 - Yoshi > Fox
146
145
144
143
142
141 - Roy
140 - Sheik
139
138
137 - Dr Mario = Mario
136 - Samus > Marth
135 - Young Link
134 - Ness
133 - Luigi
132
131
130
129
128
127
126 - Ice Climbers = Pikachu
125
124 - Peach
123
122 - Zelda
121 - Mewtwo
120
119
118
117
116
115
114
113
112
111 - Kirby
110
109
108
107
106 - Pichu = Mr Game & Watch
105
104
103
102
101
100
099
098 - Jigglypuff[/collapse][collapse="Weight Chart with Fall Speed Colors"]Here's the Melee weight list, but with the warm/cold fall speed colors. Though there is more emphasis on fall speed, notice how generally the ones with the warmer colors that are also closer to the top here are the ones that live longer vertically:
117 - Bowser
116
115
114 - Donkey Kong
113
112
111
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
107
106
105
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
103
102
101
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
099
098
097
096
095
094 - Ness
093
092
091
090 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
089
088 - Ice Climbers
087 - Marth
086
085 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
084
083
082
081
080 - Falco / Pikachu
079
078
077
076
075 - Fox
074
073
072
071
070 - Kirby
069
068
067
066
065
064
063
062
061
060 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
059
058
057
056
055 - Pichu[/collapse]
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Thanks MAgus
I also assume the vertical attack survivability was done on FD?
****in falcos fall speed ***** lol. I thought he was alot heavier.
I also assume the vertical attack survivability was done on FD?
****in falcos fall speed ***** lol. I thought he was alot heavier.
Jiggs has an at least 70/30 match-up against everyone in the game, except herself in which case the match up is 60/40 in jiggs' favor.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
actually it's 100-0 in jiggs' favor cause jiggs has to win.
john!
Smash Hero
The general consensus is that it's an impossible matchup for Jigglypuff. She always loses, no matter how good the player is.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
So I'm gonna asked this, why is Jiggs vs Falcon even? It's not even and I'm willing to bet 90% of the Falcon boards would agree. It's most likely a slight advantage for Jiggs.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The Falcon board would also say Link beats Falcon.
Just sayin'
Just sayin'
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Everyone beats Falcon = Fact
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Falcon is worst character in this game.
Jiggs is the best.
Jiggs is the best.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
Link is the best character in Melee.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
fixed./meatride
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Through this reasoning I could say that Sheik Roy isn't that bad because Sliq beat my Sheik with Roy this one time in a friendly.The matchup definitely isn't stupid. I agree it's definitely in Falco's advantage, but it's not impossible.
If it's so hard ask Zhu how i 2 stocked him on YS at pound 4 in a friendly!
then he went peach and 3 stocked me >_> lol
i'm just sayin.
Friendlies logic is ****ing stupid.
Link Sheik isn't stupid, HDL beat Mew2king in two whole games. That's like, two matches off a better player in an impossible matchup. So the matchup can't be bad at all. I mean, he won TWICE.
Falco Falcon is probably Falcon favour I mean SS beat DaShizWiz in two recorded friendlies at Genesis so I'm going to just assume that Falcon ***** Falco.
:D
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I put a laughing face after i said it to indicate that it was a joke. Sorry if you were mislead.
Though I still don't think the Falco G&W is ****
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
unknown522
Some guy
but with ducking under grabs, that means the reverse blazer won't even kill.
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Is it safe to say that a good Jiggs can beat anyone. Unless it's Kage. The Law of Kage: Kage can beat anyone that can beat anyone as long as they play jiggs.
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
As much as I love Kage, he got 3 stocked by Hungrybox IIRC so your law doesn't work...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sorry but that law is no good yet.. lol.. I also lost to Darc at Pound 4 Round 3. =/
BunBun
Smash Master
Gosh, step it up Kage.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I'm trying all the time!! lol.
unknown522
Some guy
I'm going to make a chant for kage
BunBun
Smash Master
IMHO, Kage was a member of the 300 in a past life.
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