Whats with people and Honor

PokemonMasterIRL · May 13, 2010

First off, I love Sliq posts.

Sliq said:
Anyone that mains a high tier almost always becomes complacent with their playstyle, and when you shut down their "broken" aspect, they fall apart because they use their character as a crutch to success as opposed to a tool.

Also, every character is tournament viable, it's just a matter of whether or not you want to practice more than everyone else. You can win with any character if your talent level is far above your opponent, it's just harder and takes a lot of work.

Furthermore, about 95% of the people who enter a tournament don't win it, so saying that not maining MK is "throwing your money away," entering the tournament itself is pretty much throwing your money away. You enter a tournament to compete with something on the line so it is more intense. The goal is ultimately to win, but it only happens for a rare few.

Also, if you play a generally underused character, you have a small element of surprise with unfamiliar tactics.

So much truth, had to quote it for the truth. ;}

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 14, 2010

Sliq said:
Anyone that mains a high tier almost always becomes complacent with their playstyle, and when you shut down their "broken" aspect, they fall apart because they use their character as a crutch to success as opposed to a tool.

That's why I beat MK, D3, and Falco players with Bowser. When their CG's don't work, they can't adapt because they never have to, so they get wrecked. When I constantly tear down the tornado with fortress OOS or f tilt, they fall apart. They rely too heavily on their "broken" tactics instead of learning the game.

This makes good sense really; your biggest disadvantage is that high tier mains aren't as good as you.

Also, every character is tournament viable, it's just a matter of whether or not you want to practice more than everyone else. You can win with any character if your talent level is far above your opponent, it's just harder and takes a lot of work.

Now this is outright not true. At a certain level, it doesn't matter how much better you are than your opponent-you suddenly are going to hit a brick wall while your opponent is able to keep getting better. Beyond a certain level of high level play, it doesn't matter how good you are-Ganon/CF/Link is just not viable.

EDIT: Also, something just hit me. Xyro. He claims that he's against hacking and that the hackers are egotistical jerks for taking people away from the real brawl metagame and people really developing the game... and he mains samus. LOL.

Red Arremer · May 14, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Ganon/CF/Link

Outdated information from outdated tier lists is outdated.

Falcon isn't bottom tier anymore. Still low tier, but I dunno what makes him so special among other low tiers to be named with 2 of the 3 bottom tier characters, aside that he was bottom tier in the first few tier lists.

Jigglymaster · May 14, 2010

People who use low tiers in tournaments are fooled into thinking that their character is actually good because they are novelty characters and nobody knows how to fight them.

I **** people with Jigglypuff alot but whenever I fight somebody who knows how to fight Jigglypuff I get destroyed. For example hardly anyone knows how to dodge Jigglypuff's drill to rest combo which makes it almost impossible to get a lead on Jigglypuff because she can kill you automatically when you reach 65%. People don't know that they can simply DI and avoid it and also even interrupt it with a b up from somebody like MK or Marth.

I understand all of this so thats why I also use Diddy Kong. I play as Jigglypuff until I fight somebody who knows how to fight Jiggs or if I lose and then I switch to Diddy Kong.

Orion* · May 14, 2010

Sliq said:
Anyone that mains a high tier almost always becomes complacent with their playstyle, and when you shut down their "broken" aspect, they fall apart because they use their character as a crutch to success as opposed to a tool.

its not my fault youre playing bad people lmao. if someone with just as much smarts, and talent as you puts time into lets say falco, rather than bowser. i seriously doubt you will win.

Sliq · May 14, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
This makes good sense really; your biggest disadvantage is that high tier mains aren't as good as you.

Now this is outright not true. At a certain level, it doesn't matter how much better you are than your opponent-you suddenly are going to hit a brick wall while your opponent is able to keep getting better. Beyond a certain level of high level play, it doesn't matter how good you are-Ganon/CF/Link is just not viable.

EDIT: Also, something just hit me. Xyro. He claims that he's against hacking and that the hackers are egotistical jerks for taking people away from the real brawl metagame and people really developing the game... and he mains samus. LOL.

You're operating under the assumption that human potential has a limit, and you are well aware of what that is.

You're the reason we don't have flying cars and lasers for money.

Orion* said:
its not my fault youre playing bad people lmao. if someone with just as much smarts, and talent as you puts time into lets say falco, rather than bowser. i seriously doubt you will win.

Hey, you're the one who asked the question. I answered it. It's your own fault. Now stop being pissy.

And yes, if they worked as hard as me or harder they should win. But most people don't. Instead of work they substitute a high tier and expect it to be auto-pilot.

Damage Points · May 14, 2010

You guys are fools if you think high tiers don't take time. Iv worked my *** off on Wario and his difficult matchups. I don't under estimate anyone or any matchup and don't expect an auto win. I'm also working on my MK now and I know half of you hate to admit but MK does take skill. For him to be used effectively and at high levels of play you better be **** good. Everyone knows that matchup and he's very predictable. Top level MKs have a lot of skill.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 14, 2010

Sliq said:
You're operating under the assumption that human potential has a limit, and you are well aware of what that is.

You're the reason we don't have flying cars and lasers for money.

Find me a ganon main who has put in, say, 2x-4x (hell, (arbitrary number here)x) as much time into his character as M2K puts into MK and put them against each other. Wanna hazard a guess as to who wins?

MikeKirby · May 14, 2010

I agree with Sliq and his post. Lazer+Monkey would be wickeed!

Although, human potential is unlimited this game has it's own limits, unfortunately.

Also, let this thread just disperse. Everything has already been said that needed to be said and while the OP has a point this is already common knowledge. Although, he comes off as a know-it-all.,,

Red Arremer · May 14, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Find me a ganon main who has put in, say, 2x-4x (hell, (arbitrary number here)x) as much time into his character as M2K puts into MK and put them against each other. Wanna hazard a guess as to who wins?

If M2K never played against a good Ganon, the possibility is that M2K loses. Maybe not the game, but a match or generally until he knows what to do against Ganondorf.

Same happened with FOW against M2K, if you remember. While Ness is better than Ganondorf, it's pretty much the same scenario overall.

Orion* · May 14, 2010

Sliq said:
Hey, you're the one who asked the question. I answered it. It's your own fault. Now stop being pissy.

good sir. what question did i ask?

Damage Points said:
You guys are fools if you think high tiers don't take time. Iv worked my *** off on Wario and his difficult matchups. I don't under estimate anyone or any matchup and don't expect an auto win. I'm also working on my MK now and I know half of you hate to admit but MK does take skill. For him to be used effectively and at high levels of play you better be **** good. Everyone knows that matchup and he's very predictable. Top level MKs have a lot of skill.

well. in a sense time is arbitrary because, i could spend less time than you on a character and grow faster. but the point that i do agree with is, there are no free auto win characters in this game as much as people pretend there are. you cant just pick a character, spend some time in training mode and expect to win nationals.

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Find me a ganon main who has put in, say, 2x-4x (hell, (arbitrary number here)x) as much time into his character as M2K puts into MK and put them against each other. Wanna hazard a guess as to who wins?

we agree on something

.joel said:
If M2K never played against a good Ganon, the possibility is that M2K loses. Maybe not the game, but a match or generally until he knows what to do against Ganondorf.

Same happened with FOW against M2K, if you remember. While Ness is better than Ganondorf, it's pretty much the same scenario overall.

let me show you how bad this post is.

A) ganon is awful.
B) if m2k never played a ganon, and lost a match or set it would literally only happen ONCE.
C) m2k never would lose a set to ganon. because you can literally just push b and he cant do ANYTHING about it.
D) ness despite being a low/mid tier, is light years ahead of ganon and is an awful comparison.
E) ganon is bad

Red Arremer · May 14, 2010

Hey, it's a smartass.

Orion* said:
A) ganon is awful.

So are many characters.

B) if m2k never played a ganon, and lost a match or set it would literally only happen ONCE.

That's EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

C) m2k never would lose a set to ganon. because you can literally just push b and he cant do ANYTHING about it.

I know M2K would never lose a set to Ganon, I just was picking up the example Cadet posted. Besides: If you don't KNOW how to deal with Ganon, HOW are you going to know how to deal with Ganon?

D) ness despite being a low/mid tier, is light years ahead of ganon and is an awful comparison.

That's why Ness is Mid/Low and Ganon is Bottom. Of course Ness is better than Ganon.
The comparison is not awful because FOW's Ness winning a set against M2K (iirc) was mainly because of novelty factor aka M2K not knowing what to do against Ness at that point. If M2K would've never played against Ganondorf and wouldn't know how to play against Ganon - even if it's JUST mashing B - he would probably lose, until he found out how to deal with him (mashing B, for instance).

E) ganon is bad

Oh, a broken record. Someone should fix it.

Kole · May 14, 2010

fow beat tyrant, not m2k

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 14, 2010

.joel said:
If M2K never played against a good Ganon, the possibility is that M2K loses. Maybe not the game, but a match or generally until he knows what to do against Ganondorf.

Same happened with FOW against M2K, if you remember. While Ness is better than Ganondorf, it's pretty much the same scenario overall.

...

Imagine in this time that M2K spent learning MK, the slightest bit of matchup knowledge of chars like Ganon/Ness/et cetera is included. Jeez, you'd think this is pretty self-explanatory.

If I'm a good MK who has never played a game against ganon/CF/Ness/low tier X, and low tier X main is a very good low tier X main who plays against MK a lot (inevitable in this metagame), the matchup knowledge is skewed to the extent that the low tier main could win. And then the high tier gets better at the matchup, and ***** the low tier. Notice, I'm not saying "as good as at the matchup", I'm saying "better at the matchup". The high tier main does NOT have to be as good as/better than the low tier main at the matchup because that's the way the tier list works. >.>

Crow! · May 14, 2010

Just in case this hasn't been posted in this thread already. I don't like the style of this video myself, but it might be the sort of presentation and humor that actually connects with this Orion* fellow. I prefer logical arguments and stuff myself, but that's evidently not his cup of tea.

Anyway, here's the video. It's from some point in the melee days and the list it presents is a bit off from the current one, but it still makes sense.

Tiers are for Queers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OccEKFdDq8

Red Arremer · May 14, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
The high tier main does NOT have to be as good as/better than the low tier main at the matchup because that's the way the tier list works. >.>

I know. =)

My point was that there ARE chances of a good low tier player stomping a good high tier player if the novelty effect happens. If the novelty effect doesn't happen, low tier is low tier and high tier is high tier.

Orion* · May 14, 2010

Crow! said:
Just in case this hasn't been posted in this thread already. I don't like the style of this video myself, but it might be the sort of presentation and humor that actually connects with this Orion* fellow. I prefer logical arguments and stuff myself, but that's evidently not his cup of tea.

Anyway, here's the video. It's from some point in the melee days and the list it presents is a bit off from the current one, but it still makes sense.

Tiers are for Queers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OccEKFdDq8

please, no need for the * at the end of my name. SWF just doesnt let me put Orion lol.

my internet is awful but ill load it now

Eternal Yoshi · May 14, 2010

Sliq said:
You're the reason we don't have flying cars and lasers for money.

I thought it was the patent trolls and lawyers making everyone afraid to make one because when someone becomes successful, they'll sue.
See: Any Lawsuit vs Nintendo involving the Wii remote or Classic controller.

Anyway, awesome post.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

Crow! said:
Just in case this hasn't been posted in this thread already. I don't like the style of this video myself, but it might be the sort of presentation and humor that actually connects with this Orion* fellow. I prefer logical arguments and stuff myself, but that's evidently not his cup of tea.

Anyway, here's the video. It's from some point in the melee days and the list it presents is a bit off from the current one, but it still makes sense.

Tiers are for Queers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OccEKFdDq8

lol
Difference: this is COMPETITIVE smash. >.>

.joel said:
I know. =)

My point was that there ARE chances of a good low tier player stomping a good high tier player if the novelty effect happens. If the novelty effect doesn't happen, low tier is low tier and high tier is high tier.

This is because most high tier mains are lazy ****ers. This does not mean you should main low tier, it means you should figure out how to beat low tiers and then stomp their *****. Or, depending on character, go for the ridiculous counterpick (I'd go DDD against Ook in MMs any day; if I end up facing FOW or the like I'm going Marth).

Red Arremer · May 15, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
This is because most high tier mains are lazy ****ers. This does not mean you should main low tier, it means you should figure out how to beat low tiers and then stomp their *****. Or, depending on character, go for the ridiculous counterpick (I'd go DDD against Ook in MMs any day; if I end up facing FOW or the like I'm going Marth).

I was never disagreeing with you there.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

Well if your main becomes obsolete the moment your opponent either a) puts minimal time and effort into the matchup or b) chooses the stupid counterpick, what's the point?

Red Arremer · May 15, 2010

Uh, I dunno? Fun, maybe? :3

I mean, we are competitive players, but we play competitively cause we have fun with it. So if someone wants to play Ganondorf because they find it fun to play him, despite his insane suckiness, I'm not going to stop them playing him. They just shouldn't be surprised if they never win a tournament.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

.joel said:
Uh, I dunno? Fun, maybe? :3

I mean, we are competitive players, but we play competitively cause we have fun with it. So if someone wants to play Ganondorf because they find it fun to play him, despite his insane suckiness, I'm not going to stop them playing him. They just shouldn't be surprised if they never win a tournament.

Yes, but this is competitive brawl. There's money on the line, and you want to win.

da K.I.D. · May 15, 2010

Money is not the only thing pushing people when they play in brawl tourneys, otherwise everyone would play MK.

A surprising number of people play the game just to have fun, for personal pride or just because of the character.

Theres quite a few sonic players that only play brawl in tourneys at all because sonic is in it. as an example.

Xyro77 · May 15, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
This makes good sense really; your biggest disadvantage is that high tier mains aren't as good as you.

Now this is outright not true. At a certain level, it doesn't matter how much better you are than your opponent-you suddenly are going to hit a brick wall while your opponent is able to keep getting better. Beyond a certain level of high level play, it doesn't matter how good you are-Ganon/CF/Link is just not viable.

EDIT: Also, something just hit me. Xyro. He claims that he's against hacking and that the hackers are egotistical jerks for taking people away from the real brawl metagame and people really developing the game... and he mains samus. LOL.

are u a moron? i AM furthering samus. and u? your cadet on a budget that wastes his time on brawl+gay or brawl-gay or balanced -gay-brawl.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

Xyro77 said:
are u a moron? i AM furthering samus. and u? your cadet on a budget that wastes his time on brawl+gay or brawl-gay or balanced -gay-brawl.

LOL@namesearching and responding to my troll.

Samus will never be viable though. Pick a character with a future and then give me the same lecture.

EDIT: Also, you should probably realize that brawl hacks is going to outlive vBrawl by a mile and a half. When the next brawl comes out, if it isn't hackable like this one, people will look at it, and go back to Brawl-/P:M after a few months. :3

Also, @Joel (yes, responding before your post!): They have a chance at winning against Ally/M2K/ADHD. No point in lowering this chance artificially by not picking a good character.

Red Arremer · May 15, 2010

da K.I.D. said:
Money is not the only thing pushing people when they play in brawl tourneys, otherwise everyone would play MK.

Additionally to that, why would anyone who's actually bad go to tournaments? We all know that M2K, Ally or ADHD are gonna win anyway, why not just let them play against each other? Would save us paying the money we'll lose anyway.

Of course competitive play is mainly about getting better and winning/placing in tournaments, but if it wouldn't be grounded on having fun in competing in the first place, noone would play competitive.

Ya dig, BPC?

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

Look up. :3

Sliq · May 15, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Find me a ganon main who has put in, say, 2x-4x (hell, (arbitrary number here)x) as much time into his character as M2K puts into MK and put them against each other. Wanna hazard a guess as to who wins?

If there was a Ganon main who had put as much time in with Ganon as M2K has, I'd wager about 1 out of every 10 matches the Ganon player would win.

If the Ganon player had put in more effort than M2K, I would raise the wager. Unfortunately, there are hardly any players AT ALL that have put in as much as M2K has with the game, let alone specific character mains.

The reason M2K is so good is a combination of his effort and his character. Why is it that a lot of people that main high tiers lose? I mean, not everyone can win, right? It's effort.

Effort is a much larger part of success than the character, and no one can argue that it isn't. That's why MK main #32343424234 doesn't place as well as M2K, despite maining the same character.

I bet that if someone mained Ganon, and they devoted their whole being to winning with him, they could compete with M2K. That, of course, would be a ******** waste of effort and talent.

Damage Points said:
You guys are fools if you think high tiers don't take time. Iv worked my *** off on Wario and his difficult matchups. I don't under estimate anyone or any matchup and don't expect an auto win. I'm also working on my MK now and I know half of you hate to admit but MK does take skill. For him to be used effectively and at high levels of play you better be **** good. Everyone knows that matchup and he's very predictable. Top level MKs have a lot of skill.

No one mentioned you specifically, so stop taking **** personal that isn't.

I've played and beaten random players when, according to the tier list, I shouldn't have, and I simply made an observation about why that happened. I didn't say I had played and beaten you and that you are lazy.

Everything takes time and effort to be good at. It just takes less the higher you go up the tier list.

Damage Points said:
i dont really see how a lot of characters make it out of pools, they are unviable as mains.

My bad, it wasn't a question. It was more of an implied query. I tried to alleviate your confusion on the matter.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 15, 2010

Sliq said:
If there was a Ganon main who had put as much time in with Ganon as M2K has, I'd wager about 1 out of every 10 matches the Ganon player would win.

Yeah, he wouldn't have every option beat out by one of MK's ridiculous moves. I honestly can't believe this. This would require that M2K ****s up by a lot and quite a lot in the round just to get hit enough to die. Good players don't **** up that much. Ganon has no approaches against MK whatsoever that MK can't beat with a well-placed SL or Fair. Right?

My point is that at a certain level, there's a cap to where your character can perform. The cap with high tiers is far higher than with low tiers. In other words, at a certain point, the only factor which can save you is sheer dumb luck (loltripping).

BBQTV · May 15, 2010

ganon cant win against metaknight no matter how hard they try , and anyone who says other wise is only kidding themselves

Xyro77 · May 15, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
LOL@namesearching and responding to my troll.

Samus will never be viable though. Pick a character with a future and then give me the same lecture.

EDIT: Also, you should probably realize that brawl hacks is going to outlive vBrawl by a mile and a half. When the next brawl comes out, if it isn't hackable like this one, people will look at it, and go back to Brawl-/P:M after a few months. :3

I do quite well in LT events and win lots of money. Im fine.

And here is s history lesson for you. Did you know there was a melee-? Did you know that action replay did pretty much the same that brawl- does? Where is it today? NO ONE PLAYS IT. Brawl- brawl+ balanced brawl and all that crap will not stand the test of time. Hell, its not even STANDARD yet so there is no way it will out last reg brawl. Im not saying reg brawl will live as long as melee or w/e but i assure u that it wont be around as long as brawl is.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 16, 2010

Xyro77 said:
I do quite well in LT events and win lots of money. Im fine.

And here is s history lesson for you. Did you know there was a melee-? Did you know that action replay did pretty much the same that brawl- does? Where is it today? NO ONE PLAYS IT. Brawl- brawl+ balanced brawl and all that crap will not stand the test of time. Hell, its not even STANDARD yet so there is no way it will out last reg brawl. Im not saying reg brawl will live as long as melee or w/e but i assure u that it wont be around as long as brawl is.

>implying that brawl shares the quality of melee of actually being good
>implying that action replay cards are as easy to get as SD cards
>implying that melee hacking was even a fraction as far as brawl hacking
>implying that I'm not still trolling

TBH, to compare brawl hacking to melee hacking is like... comparing SMW hacking to NSMB hacking. Not really a fair comparison whatsoever.

EDIT: Also, enjoy your being CG'd and walled out, Imma gonna wreck some DDDs with a samus who actually is able to kill regularly below 200%.

#HBC | Red Ryu · May 16, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
LOL@namesearching and responding to my troll.

Samus will never be viable though. Pick a character with a future and then give me the same lecture.

EDIT: Also, you should probably realize that brawl hacks is going to outlive vBrawl by a mile and a half. When the next brawl comes out, if it isn't hackable like this one, people will look at it, and go back to Brawl-/P:M after a few months. :3

Also, @Joel (yes, responding before your post!): They have a chance at winning against Ally/M2K/ADHD. No point in lowering this chance artificially by not picking a good character.

The simple fact that no one can agree to stop messing with the game and changing it every week with constant updates makes it hard to even keep going with the games. Balanced Brawl decided to keep it the same, like they should have, instead Brawl+ and Brawl- which want to keep changing every dang thing.

Then there is the whole legal ramifications involving the hacks, which can get TO's sued.

da K.I.D. · May 16, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
>implying that brawl shares the quality of melee of actually being good
>implying that action replay cards are as easy to get as SD cards
>implying that melee hacking was even a fraction as far as brawl hacking
>implying that I'm not still trolling

TBH, to compare brawl hacking to melee hacking is like... comparing SMW hacking to NSMB hacking. Not really a fair comparison whatsoever.

EDIT: Also, enjoy your being CG'd and walled out, Imma gonna wreck some DDDs with a samus who actually is able to kill regularly below 200%.

Wow, somebody is really butthurt about the fact that he sucks at smash.

Why else would he troll so hard and dickride a game that 1. isnt even real, and 2. Is easier to play than Barbie Horse Adventure.

[TSON] · May 16, 2010

da K.I.D. said:
Wow, somebody is really butthurt about the fact that he sucks at smash.

Why else would he troll so hard and dickride a game that 1. isnt even real, and 2. Is easier to play than Barbie Horse Adventure.

Barbie Horse Adventure is actually rly hard. The horses have like no traction
you slide around like you're ice skating
and it doesnt help that the hoops are rly small

#HBC | ZoZo · May 16, 2010

I agree with TSON, Barbie Horse Adventure is def hard. Probably a higher skillcap than Mario Kart, too bad the theme puts it in such a negative light.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 16, 2010

Before I dismount from this horse(meat):
-I created it
-I could name several melee pros/high-levels who love it
-We haven't had an official release/change in almost two months; the pit change was nothing more than a simple bugfix (like, you know, we wish ninty had released after we found IDC, DDD's infinites, and the like)
-you need to look up some of those Brawl- vids for "no play skill required"; fox will **** your argument in half. Case in point. Brawl- is not easy.
-Barbie horse Adventure... that's not fair and you know it. That game is really ****ing hard!

da K.I.D. · May 16, 2010

I dont have to look up vids of B-, Ive played the game, and its retardedly easy to play. why would you play fox, when you could play one of the other 15 or so free as hell characters.

B+ is Way too easy too. and this is coming from a guy who just got second in a B+ tourney, only losing to a guy that hasnt played the game since SNES

I dont care how many supposedly good people like your bad kid game, the game is still bad and all that does is take away from the credibility of said high-level people.

Since I did seem to use the wrong example, you can just replace Barbie Horse Adventure, with whatever the easiest game you can think of is, Im just going to say Dynasty Warriors, since its the easiest game that Ive played that I can think of atm.

Budget Player Cadet_ · May 16, 2010

Hey man, Dynasty Warriors kicked my ***.

Whats with people and Honor

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