Whats with people and Honor

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

both of those matchups are not in lucarios favor

Falco is even, IC is 6:4 Lucario.

 

[fkacyan]

Falco is even, IC is 6:4 Lucario.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wait, you're serious?

Dude, just no.

EDIT: If you think FD is worse against Falco and ICs than stages with platforms, you haven't played anybody who camps properly.

 

[Eddie G]

I'm sorry I have to pull this out, but how often do you make money, KB? Does it outweigh your travel and entry fees, overall, if you do make money?

I make money 75% of the time, usually equivalent to my entry fee due to Ohio using a top 5 payout process (meaning I place top 5 a majority of the time, and occasionally top 3). Travel is usually never covered by tournament winnings nor do I ever travel with the intent to spend any winnings on travel, aka I come prepared to spend on travel with non-smash money.

If not, I'm sorry, but you're not successful. Orion is ranked 9th and rarely makes money.

Correct. I am moderately successful, or average, being that I usually finish off a weekend with only travel expenses to account for, which is fine considering I spend the same on travel on non-smash related weekends. Orion and I are both ranked on our respective PRs (not looking at region difficulty since that is subjective for the most part), so we're basically...well...very similar as far as our accomplishments are concerned.

I never once went into detail about exactly how "successful" I believe I am, so I don't really understand why you felt the need to bring this up.

Also, Orion isn't saying to use MK all the time. MK does not win every MU on every stage in the game, and you're an idiot if you actually think or have been brainwashed to think that this is the case.

I know exactly what Orion is (and has been) saying. And you're correct, he does not win through every kind of circumstance; however...let's keep in mind the artificial limits set on him by a few rules (discouraged planking by the LGL, no scrooging, etc.). There is absolutely no way he'd lose any matchup on any starter (not countng MLG's recent switch-up) if said limits had not been placed on him. His chances on some counterpick stages are still arguable I'll admit.

Idiocy and I are nowhere near synonymous.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wait, you're serious?

Dude, just no.

EDIT: If you think FD is worse against Falco and ICs than stages with platforms, you haven't played anybody who camps properly.

After watching Lee martin, Junebug, Zucco, and Trela take down top level IC players I think the MU is 6:4 Lucario.

Dude, Battlefield against Falco is way more manageable than FD is.

 

[Masmasher@]

This is rough, but you get less and less out of a character the more you play them over time (Think the square root function). At that point picking up another character who is good for CPs and you'll get a lot out of that learning experience in a short amount of time (Comparatively speaking).

i mean its gonna even out cause its not a real person its a character but as Red Ryu said you need to take into account player skill plus since metaknight is the best wouldnt his curve even out higher then everyone else.
it would be just easier to pick him instead of speading yourself out so thin and not becoming quality with said character. beside taking the other person into account they probably have beeen studying this matchup longer then you because they know that its a bad matchup.
you win on paper but matchwise its a little bit different

 

[fkacyan]

Stuff

You brought up that your character usage was "successful." I'm saying it's not. Don't bring up personal merit if you don't want it scrutinized, and especially don't use it as a point in an argument.

 

[Eddie G]

You brought up that your character usage was "successful." I'm saying it's not. Don't bring up personal merit if you don't want it scrutinized, and especially don't use it as a point in an argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's weird, KBizzle. It sounds like personal preference is playing a large role in your success at a tournament level... Hmm...

^_-

Kind of ironic isn't it? xD

False. Kieser was the one who initiated anything about the word "success"; I never even elaborated on it or included anything about it as a point in my argument. What exactly do you have to go on from ^ that, that wouldn't be considered as anything more than a baseless assumption?

You don't even know what I consider "success" to be. I was nothing but honest with you about what you apparently see as "stuff" in my last post. Now I would appreciate it if you ceased with your half-hearted attempt at fishing for something to scrutinize me about.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's learning top tiers to beat most MU's kinda obvious if your playing to win?

Honestly, I tend to side with Jack here more then Orion.


People are different, while having multiple characters might give you an overall competitive advantage, for some people the amount of effort they put into developing the MUs that Orion's suggesting would simply not be worth it.

Other people are naturally suited to have a number of characters.


Some people might be able to use a select group of characters.


Some people might need to concentrate on only one.



So, a lot of it comes down to individual, yes, people who can do this should develop characters to takes maximum advantage of the counterpick system, but people whos' natural learning style doesn't lend itself to doing that shouldn't force it, otherwise they'll just be worse at the characters they do use without deriving a tangible benefit.

 

[Eddie G]

So, a lot of it comes down to individual, yes, people who can do this should develop characters to takes maximum advantage of the counterpick system, but people whos' natural learning style doesn't lend itself to doing that shouldn't force it, otherwise they'll just be worse at the characters they do use without deriving a tangible benefit.

I just wish Orion would comprehend this simple concept. This is exactly what determines how players go about their personal character selection.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Honestly, I tend to side with Jack here more then Orion.


People are different, while having multiple characters might give you an overall competitive advantage, for some people the amount of effort they put into developing the MUs that Orion's suggesting would simply not be worth it.

Other people are naturally suited to have a number of characters.


Some people might be able to use a select group of characters.


Some people might need to concentrate on only one.



So, a lot of it comes down to individual, yes, people who can do this should develop characters to takes maximum advantage of the counterpick system, but people whos' natural learning style doesn't lend itself to doing that shouldn't force it, otherwise they'll just be worse at the characters they do use without deriving a tangible benefit.

I'll agree with this, explains how people in my area operate and can play so many characters yet some can only play their main efficiently.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I just wish Orion would comprehend this simple concept. This is exactly what determines how players go about their personal character selection.

These are two dramatically different schools of thought though, I doubt it's just that he doesn't understand it so much as believe that you'll get a greater advantage in the long run if you concentrate the time you have on training this tendency out if you're not naturally inclined to top tier plus abusive CPs.

I'll agree with this, explains how people in my area operate and can play so many characters yet some can only play their main efficiently.

Yeah, but the real point is, since it gives you maximium competative advantage (at least in my view, and perhaps yours) it's STILL PLAYING TO WIN.


Playing to win isn't about doing what should get you the most advantage theoretically, it's about doing what actually gives you the best change of winning matches.

 

[Orion*]

If not, I'm sorry, but you're not successful. Orion is ranked 9th and rarely makes money.

i was consistently making money in teams with like 5 different partners until i started teaming with you and baji

its okay though<3

I'm sorry I have to pull this out, but how often do you make money, KB? Does it outweigh your travel and entry fees, overall, if you do make money?

If not, I'm sorry, but you're not successful. Orion is ranked 9th and rarely makes money.

Also, Orion isn't saying to use MK all the time. MK does not win every MU on every stage in the game, and you're an idiot if you actually think or have been brainwashed to think that this is the case.

So, a lot of it comes down to individual, yes, people who can do this should develop characters to takes maximum advantage of the counterpick system, but people whos' natural learning style doesn't lend itself to doing that shouldn't force it, otherwise they'll just be worse at the characters they do use without deriving a tangible benefit.

i think thats a lot rarer than you think it is though. imo, its just the amount of time you want to put into the game. the only player i know that i think is incapable of doing this is like ADHD

 

[fkacyan]

After watching Lee martin, Junebug, Zucco, and Trela take down top level IC players I think the MU is 6:4 Lucario.

Dude, Battlefield against Falco is way more manageable than FD is.

I can guarantee I've played more high-level Falcos then you, and any Falco that knows how to camp is a million times harder to beat on BF.

@Orion: You do know that doubles doesn't count towards the PR right? There were huuuuuuge debates about that when Inui was trying to get his rank higher.

Spoiler

inb4inuionsomebodyelsesaccount

 

[Orion*]

idc about PRs, anyone below like 4 probably isnt winning $ in singles anytime soon. i was meaning making money overall

 

[fkacyan]

idc about PRs, anyone below like 4 probably isnt winning $ in singles anytime soon. i was meaning making money overall

I'm trying to differentiate between relative success and actual success here.

 

[phi1ny3]

both of those matchups are not in lucarios favor

Falco isn't

ICs are.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

idc about PRs, anyone below like 4 probably isnt winning $ in singles anytime soon. i was meaning making money overall

I'm surprised most areas aren't paying out to 6th, it seems to work out well to draw in more people to tournaments.

Falco isn't

ICs are.

What phil said.

Point is, Falco + IC's on neutrals when FD is striked/banned, Lucario works around that by going even with Falco and having an advnatage on ICs.

 

[Orion*]

Falco isn't

ICs are.

id trust meeps matchups numbers and my own personal experience before yours?

I'm trying to differentiate between relative success and actual success here.

gaming world? XD

I'm surprised most areas aren't paying out to 6th, it seems to work out well to draw in more people to tournaments.

you have no idea how much i would like this, but NJ is greedy >_>

 

[Masmasher@]

I'm trying to differentiate between relative success and actual success here.

You are playing brawl...
nuff said

 

[Orion*]

elaborate please. i feel like i am missing your joke/sarcasm over the internet ._. .....
im assuming youre playing brawl since youre on this thread. LOL

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can guarantee I've played more high-level Falcos then you, and any Falco that knows how to camp is a million times harder to beat on BF.

Explain to me how the platforms make it harder. The top platform pretty much is a big middle finger to Falco's camping. The lower ones on the left and right he can still pick people off with lasers.

Is it Falco hiding under the platforms doing SHDL? If anything the platforms help me jump above.

id trust meeps matchups numbers and my own personal experience before yours?

Meep is the only top level IC that I can recall who disagrees with it being Lucario's advantage.

you have no idea how much i would like this, but NJ is greedy >_>

That sucks,

 

[fkacyan]

Explain to me how the platforms make it harder. The top platform pretty much is a big middle finger to Falco's camping. The lower ones on the left and right he can still pick people off with lasers.

Is it Falco hiding under the platforms doing SHDL? If anything the platforms help me jump above.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

You think going above Falco is a good idea?

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAA. Yes, move into what is universally the worst non-offstage position to be in. That'll help.

 

[da K.I.D.]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

You think going above Metaknight is a good idea?

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAA. Yes, move into what is universally the worst non-offstage position to be in. That'll help.

fixed for accuracy.

 

[Orion*]

ive notice its usually hard for falcos at low/mid level play to deal with dair camping mks. idk why the hell he thinks lucario can do that **** though. LOL

and @ red, how many top ics matter? >_>

^ and he was obviously being non character specific you troll

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

You think going above Falco is a good idea?

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAA. Yes, move into what is universally the worst non-offstage position to be in. That'll help.

When my character has a 4 frame dair and decent air speed to catch him. Not to mention lingering hit-boxes to catch him on a phantasm cross to get away. Falco has triangle jumped bair for predictable dair usage from Lucario.

Being in the air allows an alternative approach, I could PS lasers as I walk towards him or I could jump over him and play a game of rock, paper, scissor with Lucario's dair, and other aerials.

From what I've done and seen, Lucario mixes between air and ground approaches, which works quite well.

You still failed to answer my question on why BF is worse than FD vs Falco.

ive notice its usually hard for falcos at low/mid level play to deal with dair camping mks. idk why the hell he thinks lucario can do that **** though. LOL

and @ red, how many top ics matter? >_>

I must have missed the part where I said Lucario would be dair camping, I said approaching from the air if need be, which is more than dair, especially since fair is better with approaching.

Lucario is going to use his better aerials to approach or inch slowly towards Falco if he's forces to approach.

As for top IC's well you can decide who to trust, if you want to trust in Meep, go ahead. I'm just saying his opinion differs from what Lucario and IC mains have been saying.

 

[Orion*]

no im saying i that you dont really gain anything by approaching off the ground. youre just limiting your options for a already limited character unless the falco is dumb or you made a very good read.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

no im saying i that you dont really gain anything by approaching off the ground. youre just limiting your options for a already limited character unless the falco is dumb or you made a very good read.

It's much easier to catch a phantasm on the ground than in the air.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I like how this thread now has nothing to do with the OP, and now revolves around where on the stage it's ok to be when you're playing a Falco.

 

[phi1ny3]

id trust meeps matchups numbers and my own personal experience before yours?



gaming world? XD



you have no idea how much i would like this, but NJ is greedy >_>

No, but I trust Lain, Hylian's, and Zucco's numbers.

3:1 top pro logic

ggs

and for the record, I don't think Falco is even either, it's disadvantageous. Falco's tools are frankly... amazing.

Falco bair baiting is good, but unlike most chars minus like MK, Lucario's got some decent tools in the whole exchange. Falco has to deal with getting out zoned in the first/second jump in mere timing. Why does Falco win then? Lucario's moveset is ill equipped to handle a shutdown game like Falco's with lucario's relatively slow moveset, against a highly defensive and safe reaction game. Phantasm alone gives Lucario plenty of trouble, and while Falco is imo easier than Fox for Lucario, both are very tough in their own right. Lucario doesn't have as much punishment to offer as say, Marth in the Matchup, and some of Lucario's better moves take backseat and are limited to rare occasions (like fsmash and AS).
Is it close? Yes, look at any videos of Ozz, Bleachigo, people who have played the MU constantly against good Lucarios, and won. Is it even? Not from my perspective and experience.

 

[judge!]

i meannn..in a sense if u play perfect no char can take any damage..XD

 

[Orion*]

No, but I trust Lain, Hylian's, and Zucco's numbers.

3:1 top pro logic
Bleachigo, people who have played the MU constantly against good Lucarios, and won. Is it even? Not from my perspective and experience.

bleachigo going or playing consistently at all is a joke in itself.

what lucarios are in lains region :< meep had azen and has junebug iirc.

 

[phi1ny3]

Whoa whoa, what happened here?

Hylian has played Lee and Trela's Lucarios many times, I wouldn't discredit his knowledge even though he's been a bit inactive.

Bleachigo and Ozz are still the most consistently good playstyle against Lucario from what I've seen. People like KiD, Bloodcross, Keitaro, Kismet, etc. don't seem to get the MU down as effectively. They know how to effectively zone Lucario and not perform the habits that are normally suitable in other MUs, like avoiding uair kills, baiting better, trapping, etc.

On the flipside, Zucco's played a TON of ICs, don't tell me that doesn't count at all. Lain I'm not sure, but atm I'm pretty sure he's probably the best IC player atm.

Meep is questionable merely because he's been beaten several times by Lucario even when he's had the infinite and matchup patdown, plus I can say that while he's amazing at his IC metagame, he doesn't exactly have the most agreeable ratios.

Besides, how does that qualify you to be the so-called "expert" in the subject over these people? Last time I recall, all you've contributed to either is losing... to Lucario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Phil, why are you better at explaining stuff?

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm pretty much done here lol, the point of the thread is now not really on course with what's being discussed. In reality, the efficiency of "pocketing" characters is not as easy as merely CPing and winning, unless you are one of the rare few that can apply their high-end knowledge to a wide variety, it's not just a matter of honor, it's a matter of limitation. Unless it's a terrible MU with a really nasty ultimatum of a tactic, it's going to be steep to pick up quickly on a character someone has probably steered themselves on the MU based on their character much more than you as the opponent would. MK is pretty much one of your best bets for being safe regardless of the other character, and with a CP in mind, hence why he's such an amazing secondary option (did I really need to state something this obvious?)

Imo it's far easier to just go with a good CP to limit their options while strengthening yours, especially if they're a fragile character stage-wise. Combinations like taking Falco to Brinstar and Wolf to Lylat are crippling and effectively still keep your character's strengths in mind when done correctly. Unfortunately, most often you can't get the stages you want, especially the first round, but still a good thing to keep in mind.

That being said, it's never bad to stretch your scope to more than one character.

 

[Hylian]

It's ok phil, people can think pivot grab wins every match-up if they want. People will always judge and have things justified in their heads when they haven't even played the people in question or talked to them. It's kind of irritating when people think they know your skill or knowledge when they haven't talked or played with you, but it's something most well known players deal with. More people are focused on being right then actually understanding or contributing something.

 

[phi1ny3]

Although pivot grab is amazing for snatching Lucario out of low dairs, I do agree.

 

[Orion*]

It's ok phil, people can think pivot grab wins every match-up if they want. People will always judge and have things justified in their heads when they haven't even played the people in question or talked to them.

ive played all of those people except you, note that i crossed your name out for the matchup in question.

It's kind of irritating when people think they know your skill or knowledge when they haven't talked or played with you, but it's something most well known players deal with. More people are focused on being right then actually understanding or contributing something.

me saying that i dont really think your a top player doesnt put your skill into question. you arent. youre a good player, by reference, but there is a difference by top and good. imo i honestly wouldnt put zucco as a top PLAYER, but in terms of being at the top of his characters metagame he is. i havent played you so i never made that reference, you can get mad if you want lol.

 

[BleachigoZX]

bleachigo going or playing consistently at all is a joke in itself.

Moneymatch me!

 

[Orion*]

Moneymatch me!

sure, 5$ is an acceptable amount good sire of the farthest dune, but how will i ever see you? neither of us go to tournaments often, and you just kind of smell like meat so its hard to sit next to something so putrifying it disturbs my sense of what i should feel back when i started to pick up my controller to fight inuui back in 2008 when i was a fox main, but he 2 stocked me so i dropped fox because he was booty and learned to play falco and marth but its k. btw, ew name search lol. u mad?

oh and. ill use marth vs your falco and still win, k?

 

[Sliq]

i dont really see how a lot of characters make it out of pools, they are unviable as mains.

Anyone that mains a high tier almost always becomes complacent with their playstyle, and when you shut down their "broken" aspect, they fall apart because they use their character as a crutch to success as opposed to a tool.

That's why I beat MK, D3, and Falco players with Bowser. When their CG's don't work, they can't adapt because they never have to, so they get wrecked. When I constantly tear down the tornado with fortress OOS or f tilt, they fall apart. They rely too heavily on their "broken" tactics instead of learning the game.

Also, every character is tournament viable, it's just a matter of whether or not you want to practice more than everyone else. You can win with any character if your talent level is far above your opponent, it's just harder and takes a lot of work.

Furthermore, about 95% of the people who enter a tournament don't win it, so saying that not maining MK is "throwing your money away," entering the tournament itself is pretty much throwing your money away. You enter a tournament to compete with something on the line so it is more intense. The goal is ultimately to win, but it only happens for a rare few.

Also, if you play a generally underused character, you have a small element of surprise with unfamiliar tactics.