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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

CRASHiC

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Better question, what the hell is D3 doing within that range????? If the D3 is that close to Falco to get hit by jab, he's asking for trouble. D3 outranges Falco by far, and has the tools to keep Falco in that distance.

But if Falco has to keep this distance, then we are back to laser camping option.
No, you are misunderstanding. Here, let me show you my Falco strategy. Below is FD, D3, and Falco

___________D3__Falco_

With in this distance, D3 can not get hit by lazers without being able to punish, we are out of range of your jab, aerials become very, very predictable, as do any approaches at this distance. Meanwhile, you are still well within D3s range, and at a very, very dangerious zone being at the edge, not a good place for Falco at all. From here, what do you do?Phantom isn't going to work, we can jab you out of that easy. You would have to jump, but short hoping will put you in range for our uptilt, that's always fun :) full hopping means upair time, again we hit you out of your side b. You have to double jump, which means while you land, we have time to chase you.

the only thing ddd can do up close is use offensive spotdodging, shield and grab
You have such an awful idea of D3s moveset. Ftilt, dtilt, if spaced properly, are not punishable by the falco, and if we can easily predict and hit with forward smash or inhale.

similarly DDD doesn't have as good of tools as other characters to try and beat phantasm
I've already covered this. You play some bad D3s man.
 
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No, you are misunderstanding. Here, let me show you my Falco strategy. Below is FD, D3, and Falco

___________D3__Falco_

With in this distance, D3 can not get hit by lazers without being able to punish, we are out of range of your jab, aerials become very, very predictable, as do any approaches at this distance. Meanwhile, you are still well within D3s range, and at a very, very dangerious zone being at the edge, not a good place for Falco at all. From here, what do you do?Phantom isn't going to work, we can jab you out of that easy. You would have to jump, but short hoping will put you in range for our uptilt, that's always fun :) full hopping means upair time, again we hit you out of your side b. You have to double jump, which means while you land, we have time to chase you.
Don't forget to imply the options to simply stand around, walk away or simply have DDD move first. If you look at all the scernarios in Brawl, just about all of them can be countered if the opposition moves first. If DDD ever moves first, Falco can have all the tools to beat whatever you have also.
 

LoganW

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You mean cancel the spike, right? That depends on your damage. Also, remember D3's Up-b is VERY edgehoggable.
yeah sorry forgot to type it. I've never seen d3's recovery edge-hogged they can go over you or they can go up, get you off the ledge (cause if you stay to long you get spiked:)),cancel it, and then grab it on the way down
 

CRASHiC

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Don't forget to imply the options to simply stand around, walk away or simply have DDD move first. If you look at all the scernarios in Brawl, just about all of them can be countered if the opposition moves first. If DDD ever moves first, Falco can have all the tools to beat whatever you have also.
Except we don't have to move first, cause we just shielded all of your lazers. If you do anything, anything at all, we punish. Even then, you can't punish a space forward tilt.

Also, remember D3's Up-b is VERY edgehoggable.
Yes, super armor frames are VERY edgehoggable.

No, it isn't. You will never gimp a good D3.
 

ru5514n

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No, you are misunderstanding. Here, let me show you my Falco strategy. Below is FD, D3, and Falco

___________D3__Falco_

With in this distance, D3 can not get hit by lazers without being able to punish, we are out of range of your jab, aerials become very, very predictable, as do any approaches at this distance. Meanwhile, you are still well within D3s range, and at a very, very dangerious zone being at the edge, not a good place for Falco at all. From here, what do you do?Phantom isn't going to work, we can jab you out of that easy. You would have to jump, but short hoping will put you in range for our uptilt, that's always fun :) full hopping means upair time, again we hit you out of your side b. You have to double jump, which means while you land, we have time to chase you.



You have such an awful idea of D3s moveset. Ftilt, dtilt, if spaced properly, are not punishable by the falco, and if we can easily predict and hit with forward smash or inhale.


I've already covered this. You play some bad D3s man.
Well, again, a Falco being there is asking for trouble. But you are right about me not facing good D3s. The ones I've played before sucked.:(
 

CRASHiC

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Well, again, a Falco being there is asking for trouble. But you are right about me not facing good D3s. The ones I've played before sucked.:(
I was more refering to the other player, since you seem new to the scene. He was speaking for experiance in tournaments, while you were speaking of your experience.

But anyway, the Falco doesn't have a choice because of his range.

I don't get how someone who is hard countered by IC's and has multiple bad matchups can be #2.
Mew2King just really hates playing Falco's. He thinks Brawl Falco is the worst thing ever.
 

ru5514n

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Except we don't have to move first, cause we just shielded all of your lazers. If you do anything, anything at all, we punish. Even then, you can't punish a space forward tilt.



Yes, super armor frames are VERY edgehoggable.

No, it isn't. You will never gimp a good D3.
What I meant was you're forced to use your up-b and it cannot land on the stage safely, a simple edgehog is all it takes, because D3's up-b can't grab the ledge until it's cancelled.
 
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Except we don't have to move first, cause we just shielded all of your lazers. If you do anything, anything at all, we punish. Even then, you can't punish a space forward tilt.
:laugh:

That was SuSa's whole arguement against Falco vs Snake. It was the whole paradox of who moves first loses idea xD

Ftilt can be punished
1) Powershield - PSing the Ftilt will give DDD so much lag afterwards one can almost always punish DDD after PSing the hit. I think Falco can even Upsmash DDD in the lag of the attack. So there is a possible killing change. To be sure I would have to look up frame data for it. If not, I know Dash Attack and Shine will punish the attack after PSing the hit.
 

CRASHiC

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What I meant was you're forced to use your up-b and it cannot land on the stage safely, a simple edgehog is all it takes, because D3's up-b can't grab the ledge until it's cancelled.
That's fine, because D3 is so heavy, has such great DI, and has so many jumps that you aren't going to get that opportunity very often. It can also be hard to punish D3's ending on down b, because if we cancel it, and land it right,, you aren't going to have but maybe a few seconds to punish it.

1) Powershield - PSing the Ftilt will give DDD so much lag afterwards one can almost always punish DDD after PSing the hit. I think Falco can even Upsmash DDD in the lag of the attack. So there is a killing opprotunity. If not, dash attack, shine will work for sure.
Lol at trying to kill D3 from uptop. Next you'll kill Metaknight from the side?
Also, forward tilt has to far of range and to little lag for you to punish like you are talking about.
 

A2ZOMG

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Pierce, you're an amazing guy. Great logic you have there.

My only real placement disagreements:

Samus I believe is on par with the D tier at least. Maybe C tier. Her entire movepool is solid in general, and she has a lot of safe strategies, and safe and almost reliable "combos". She also survives forever with her high weight, and S tier recovery. Samus can score kills easily if she keeps good track of stale moves and KO percents, since she has a good pressure game. Her charge shot can be easy to land on people when they are in a poor position, and does very massive damage, and kills at moderate percents. Her U-tilt is a GREAT move with ridiculous range and acceptable KO power. Her D-air comes out slow, but is a safe move with what seems to be infinite priority.

Jigglypuff is also a decent character that is simply outclassed. She can be stupidly safe, and that's all that matters. Pound ***** dodges and does massive shield damage. Drillrest KOs people at like 90% and combos if they trip. Rollout in most matchups is also a stupidly hard move to punish, and KOs EARLY.

At any rate, I believe Link should be at the level of Yoshi. They both have crippling weaknesses, but kinda alright movepools. Samus and Jigglypuff don't really have crippling weaknesses that can't be worked around, which is something that makes them better than the level you put them at.
 

ph00tbag

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I think that right now, Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
Y'know, I once typed up an essay (which I didn't post) on why I think most players severely underrate Diddy Kong because they don't really know how truly devastating bananas are, and how well Diddy is designed to flow with them, and even circumvent them should they be used against them. I think it goes so far that even some Diddy Kong players underrate him. I'm glad to see someone else putting him more where he belongs, even if it's not an official tier list.
 

'V'

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I think Diddy and Ice Climbers will move up seeing as how their metagames have been steadily improving since the last tier list. Their tournament rankings show quite well for it also.

Zelda, as much as it pains me to say, will most likely drop more. And it'll most likely be at the place where she'll stay for quite a long time.
 
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That's fine, because D3 is so heavy, has such great DI, and has so many jumps that you aren't going to get that opportunity very often. It can also be hard to punish D3's ending on down b, because if we cancel it, and land it right,, you aren't going to have but maybe a few seconds to punish it.
Chasing DDD down is annoying. x.X

DDD is just a pain to kill is how I see it. I don't see having good weight, DI, and recovery makes it any easier to avoid getting juggled. DDD reminds me of Snake in terms of being juggled. Bad when being pinned down and juggled, but when he gets back to the ground DDD can ****.
 

LoganW

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you aren't going to have but maybe a few seconds to punish it.
that's a looong time to punish

Lol at trying to kill D3 from uptop. Next you'll kill Metaknight from the side?
Also, forward tilt has to far of range and to little lag for you to punish like you are talking about.
powershield to dacus seems plausible to me, definitely seems possible to do what he said especially the dash attack at the very least. Also I think people kill mk off the side, especially diddy, he kills on the sides alot
 

CRASHiC

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Chasing DDD down is annoying. x.X

DDD is just a pain to kill is how I see it. I don't see having good weight, DI, and recovery makes it any easier to avoid getting juggled. DDD reminds me of Snake in terms of being juggled. Bad when being pinned down and juggled, but when he gets back to the ground DDD can ****.
Err, I was talking about gimping DDD.
And even then, downair comes out incredibly fast, huge range, and bair is is disjoined as well. How can Falco get through down air if you try to juggle us?

powershield to f-smash seems plausible to me, definitely seems possible to do what he said especially the dash attack at the very least. Also I think people kill mk off the side, especially diddy, he kills on the sides alot
1. Ftilt's range is huge, much longer than Falco's forward smash.
2. killing MK is always easier off top cause of his weight, DI potential, and insane recovery.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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i am not saying zelda should be higher or wont drop but the topic crater said he thinks she should be bottom 3 or 4 which i think is wrong
 
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To really go any farther with the killing thing from a PSed Ftilt I'd have to see some frame data. Ftilt is pretty fast, but hitting a PS gives it more frames than usual because it hits a shield, and thus it gains lag from hitting a shield. PS negates being hit by the hitbox intended for it.
 

SuSa

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:laugh:

That was SuSa's whole arguement against Falco vs Snake. It was the whole paradox of who moves first loses idea xD

Ftilt can be punished
1) Powershield - PSing the Ftilt will give DDD so much lag afterwards one can almost always punish DDD after PSing the hit. I think Falco can even Upsmash DDD in the lag of the attack. So there is a possible killing change. To be sure I would have to look up frame data for it. If not, I know Dash Attack and Shine will punish the attack after PSing the hit.
I'm not kidding, and you've played against my logic. xD As well as many others.

Seriously though, it's how the match is. Whoever has to approach generally loses... GENERALLY... not always. It's weird.
 

LoganW

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1. Ftilt's range is huge, much longer than Falco's forward smash.
2. killing MK is always easier off top cause of his weight, DI potential, and insane recovery.
that was a typo I changed it to dacus and on a power shield it is very easy to punish
the killing is obvious but saying that you can kill d3 off the top isn't absurd
 

momochuu

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I'm liking the list in the OP. Very well detailed. Snake explanation really made me wonder if he really is second best.
 
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I'm not kidding, and you've played against my logic. xD As well as many others.

Seriously though, it's how the match is. Whoever has to approach generally loses... GENERALLY... not always. It's weird.
Yeah, well the whole debate between Falco and Snake gave me this lasting impression. It's a draw. A dead draw. If you think of every scernario being played correctly and in an ideal situation, who ever moves in absolute theory, will lose. Simply because whatever Snake did to falco he can punish and vise versa. And once you keep thinking that the one who takes damage is then forced to start the approach for fear of running out the clock, they just go back to being countered again and again xD

Evil paradox we created xD

Err, I was talking about gimping DDD.
And even then, downair comes out incredibly fast, huge range, and bair is is disjoined as well. How can Falco get through down air if you try to juggle us.

1. Ftilt's range is huge, much longer than Falco's forward smash.
2. killing MK is always easier off top cause of his weight, DI potential, and insane recovery.
Gimping yeah, I don't see DDD ever being gimped. I'd rather just punish him at every attempt to regain control than try to gimp him. That gives him a chance to evade Falco. Either way, Falco is on the ground and DDD is in the air. Keep close and out of range, DDD's aerials won't hit, and Falco can punish. Window to punish is narrow, but it is there.

Fsmash can hit. If you assume that Ftilt won't be spaced at the very tip ever single time, Fsmash can hit with the weakened part of it.
 

Alfa

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and technically slightly loses to olimar (though VERY few olimars know the matchup well enough to abuse what they need to to win, and i hardly tell people what it is so they dont start to abuse it and destroy me lol).
Is it 'use Olimar's non-pikmin moves to beat ROB's'? It works on Wario (somehow).:bee:

Top
1) MK
2) Falco
3) Diddy/ICs

5) Snake
6) Wario

High
7) Olimar
8) Marth
9) Pikachu
10) DDD

that's my current top 10 opinion
That doesn't look too bad to me, but Falco seems a bit high, although personally Falco/Diddy/IC's/A slightly worse MK/Snake all seem to be contenders for the second spot. It's good to see Olimar at seventh though, he really belongs a bit higher than where he is now, since his biggest problem is recovery, which though DI-ing up/Whistle/Air dodge can be made less of a problem.

Edit since discussion moved on a page while I was typing and such:

Yeah, well the whole debate between Falco and Snake gave me this lasting impression. It's a draw. A dead draw. If you think of every scernario being played correctly and in an ideal situation, who ever moves in absolute theory, will lose. Simply because whatever Snake did to falco he can punish and vise versa. And once you keep thinking that the one who takes damage is then forced to start the approach for fear of running out the clock, they just go back to being countered again and again xD

Evil paradox we created xD
I've been thinking lately what gameplay would be like at a frame perfect level of play, since every action could theorectically be powershielded and punished, except for things like 1 frame jabs and such, meaning that at a frame perfect level of play, due to shields coming out on frame 2 for pretty much everyone (from memory) (Yoshi is an exception, with a frame 1 shield, but 17 shield drop frames), meaning that with 1 frame reflexes (assuming it's possible, like cpu's doing it), the only attacks usable would be things that hit on frame 1 or 2, so ZSS may have 100-0 matches, due to being able to Powershield -> punish everything with Jab, until she comes up against Kirby/G&W who ducks it (lol).
 

CT Chia

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I'll teach you the Snake MU when I'm in PA. I don't think ROB is going to bounce into the high tier because he doesn't at all beat the rest of the cast soundly. I hear ROB slaughters ICs, so I've just taken that for granted and can imagine it, though I've never seen the MU being played. Can you elaborate on ROB vs Diddy? I don't see why ROB has the advantage.
ROB can take Diddys bananas and use them almost just as good as Diddy can. This also helps solve ROB's killing problem as bananas serve as a nice setup into fsmash, which is hard to land normally with it's short range. Also since fsmash is hard to land, it's almost always not staled at all, so if you hit with it at a nice percent, it should kill.

ROB can throw a gyro into a mess of bananas and Diddy and extremely mess up his banana planning and spacing and either confuse Diddy with throwing in 3 items (that has a hurt box while standing there) or buy you time to rack up damage with lasers or steal one of his bananas.

Diddy has no aerials that outprioritize ROB's aerial options. I believe the only thing is throwing a banana.

ROB is safe to go off stage wherever he pleases, and unlike some MUs like MK, he doesn't have to worry about making it back since Diddy really isn't an off stage character, ROB will always find an opening to make it back without worrying about wasting gas. He is one of the best characters at gimping Diddy, either by stopping Diddy's overB part of his recovery with fair or laser from on stage, or bair from the ledge. When Diddy is forced to recover low (which happens all the time in the matchup), if you nail the timing right and Diddy is recovering from very low (like not right near the ledge) you can let go of the ledge and dair Diddy out of his upB killing him at any percent from there essentially, or you can let go and fair Diddy and sort of push him under the stage, which works on stages with solid ground like Battlefield (but not hollow ones like Halberd).

ROBs tilts (especially ftilt) are safe on Diddy compared to all of his physical moves. The only thing Diddy can really use to get around it is GT'ing bananas.

Diddy doesn't have too many options while falling. Popping Diddy up in the air with moves as simple as dash attack can lead to awesome strings of attacks. Lately Diddys have relied on wavebouncing their popgun to fall to the ground in a random fashion, but I personally find that tactic quite easy to read and follow for more punishes.

---

So split into two parts, off stage game and on stage game. When it's off stage, ROB has a very strong advantage on Diddy. When both characters are on stage, the simple trend you can see from my above analysis is that Diddy is hopeless without his bananas as ROB's physical moves trump Diddys. ROB however has a fairly nice time messing up Diddys banana game compared to a lot of characters between throwing a gyro into the mix, sniping Diddy with lasers to make him mess up grabbing bananas, etc. Also ROB is able to use the bananas when he gets ahold of them to his own advantage pretty nice. One of the most annoying parts of the MU imo is when I'm on the ledge and Diddy is on stage. He can have a banana ready to punish any of ROB's slow get up options, and the popgun forces me to get up. This is why I like to CP a hollow stage like Halberd to give me a crap load of options for getting back on the stage, normally while dealing nice damage with moves like uair that Diddy has a tough time getting around and punishing.

After all, with all of this in mind I just took ADHD to 3rd game this weekend (winning on my CP Halberd because of what I said about not worrying about ledge problems helps so much). I also was about to get the sweet fair gimp off stage I mentioned earlier pushing Diddy under the stage, but ADHD just had to go and tech the underside of the stage when I fair'd him and I just missed the follow up :( That could have gotten me to win the neutral match.
 
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Snake has more moves that are safe on block then Falco.
Snake has better stage control.
Snake can KO

/only reason why it's Snakes favor
My reasoning is that Snake has weight and KO ability.

Edit: All this talk is making want to play Crashic to simply get the experience.
 

demonictoonlink

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I main D3. I know he beats Falco upclose.
How is Falco going to kill D3?
If Falco hits us with an aerial, we pull out our uptilt, uptilt has invincibility frames upon contact, meaning we will win out.
Jab we shield grab, duh. dash attack, shield grab, duh.
If we predict a grab, we can inhale it, or downtilt it.
Falco's only way to escape a corner trap against a D3 who is equally skilled is to double jump and use the side b, which we then chase as he falls.
Falco also suffers from pummel releases at the edge, which cause him to fall so far down that its an instant kill. And guess what, Falco camps the edge so that works out very well.
Eh, you explained yourself well. I take my comment back.
 
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is Crashic actually good?
I have no idea. My experience stems from Wifi play, frame data theory, and discussing/reading with a lot of other players. From high, mid and low levels of playing.

My major problem in a battle is being easily confused by which option to use at any given moment.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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At any rate, I believe Link should be at the level of Yoshi. They both have crippling weaknesses, but kinda alright movepools. Samus and Jigglypuff don't really have crippling weaknesses that can't be worked around, which is something that makes them better than the level you put them at.
Samus's Up close game sucks and she has trouble KOing other than Powershot.
Jigglypuff has a terrible ground game and can't deal with disjointed hitboxes very well.
 

CRASHiC

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is Crashic actually good?
I'm decent, in no way a top.
However, simply because you are not a top player does not mean what you are talking about. It happens all the time. Many members in the backroom fit under this category, they have extensive knowledge of the game, but for whatever reason, can't apply it. My trouble comes from living 3 hours away from the tournament scene.
For instance, one of our most knowledgeably players is Gates, but he in no way is a top player, and will admit that he is an awful player, yet his knowledge of our matchups is extensive.
However, I have only loss to one Falco ever at my first tournament, and hope to keep it this way. It made me mad as hell to loose to a scrub Falco, and I studied the matchup intensely afterwords. Its stil in Falco's favor, 60-40 or 55-45, and from Seibrik has said he agrees, I'm assuming, he's never given a percent, only said that Pikachu is more of a concern. In fact, he thinks only Pikachu is are truly bad matchup.

At __crystal____, my wifi game is horrible, I'm talking about killing myself 3 times with ZSS dowair in the same match for no apprenant reason. Are you going to Pound 4?
 

clowsui

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my question is this: how are you actually going to get falco to approach and suddenly LAND in ftilt range? obviously he's going to be spacing outside of that part if it's really that bad, and even STILL it's highly doubtful that ddd can beat all of falco's options on reaction (in other words i don't actually believe you when you say it can be beat on reaction, SHOW ME). falco's laser, his jab, his grab and his dash attack are really all he needs. his ftilt is also a powerful tool that extends roughly the range of your dtilt - a little bit, iirc.

so long as falco is the one who is forcing the approach and the one who controls the situation, then he's winning.
 

LoganW

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I never said I was good and I don't play brawl lol. I just heard about you in that thread where you were hating on the beatles and then that guy said he wanted to play you. So idk, you have a lot of talk and so I thought you were like a top player or something lol.
Oh, that gates guy is mad funny I used to just go to the d3 boards to read his posts and his flowchart.
 

Pierce7d

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Jab- shield grab
Dash attack- shield grab, forward tilt, downsmash, downtilt
Grab- inhale, downtilt.
Aerial- Bair, uptilt, downair.
Commander Beef beat the best Falco in tournament. Beef is not even a top D3. Falco has a glaring weakness, and this is seen once you get past his camping game. Close combat can be beaten, and then pushed off stage for the easy, easy gimp.
Then, how do you plan to kill the D3?
Okay, you seem to have the very foolish mentality the you are always going to know what the Falco is going to do. At best, you can assume the Falco is going to laser. Unless you have impossible frame 3 reflexes, Falco WILL hit you with mix-ups, and you still have to catch HIM. He can move while he shoots, and CAN EASILY get into range to jab. He can always dash attack, and you cannot shield it on reaction. You WILL get hit by dash attack if you try and respond immediately after prefect shielding a laser.

Would that be DEHF or SK92? Also which tourney/how recently? :x

I'd also like to know. Both of these Falco's are from SoCal.

agreed





IAP stands for Instant Aerial Phantasm, it's the thing falco's do when they jump a little before phantasm to cut down on landing lag.

took the liberty of looking that up for you pierce. I'm no troll:(
edit: 100th post melee ftw (no hate just had to say it)
Okay, I know the technique, I've never heard of it by that name before. Rolling is also effective.

LOL I''ll pop in to say sometimes this was actually true. Some of the Link mains (especially me) were hoping Link to be dead last so when they win they could rub it in their opponents faces even more.

I hope that comes true.


I think IC's are the 4th/5th best character in this game. I agree that Snake MK and Diddy are the best 3.

But Diddy can desynch the IC's unwillingly with bannana's. Snakes Explosives and nades cause grab problems for the IC's not to mention snakes range. And well......MK is MK. It might be IC's best matchup surprisingly out of those three. This was demonstrated by Lain Vs M2K

That said, I don't see IC's able to compete with the top 3 consistantly. I see them as being in the top of A but not in S.
Solid argument. A lot of people have been convincing me that I might be over-rating ICs.

Which one is in Cali? DEHF I believe? And it was about a month or two ago, not very long at all.
Both are Cali. But I can find you many more instances of Falcos beating D3.

The theorycraft coming from CRASHiC...it's...OVER NINE-THOUSAND!!!
I must agree.

imo falco's "fist game" shall we call it is pretty overrated.
Frame data-wise it's excellent, but hitbox/other qualities is not something to write home about.
If it weren't for the fact that falco could gay lucario up with heavy camping and such, I'd say that lucario would destroy falco's close zone game. Most of the options whilst in it can be ignored and nullified by better spacing from longer ranged attacks, as longer ranged zones are generally superior (not always the case, but it's a pretty good bet) because you play on misspacing when using a close range game, which is a lot harder to capitalize on than mistiming, especially if the opponent knows what he is doing obviously. It's a general rule people forget when determining advantages in terms of tools.
I generally refer to it a boxing. Also, I greatly beat out Lucario at close range with Falco. Lucario is much slower. I understand what you're saying about timing, which is why Lucario can combat Marth, but Falco generally wins, and is strong in that apartment as well.

I main D3. I know he beats Falco upclose.
How is Falco going to kill D3?
If Falco hits us with an aerial, we pull out our uptilt, uptilt has invincibility frames upon contact, meaning we will win out.
Jab we shield grab, duh. dash attack, shield grab, duh.
If we predict a grab, we can inhale it, or downtilt it.
Falco's only way to escape a corner trap against a D3 who is equally skilled is to double jump and use the side b, which we then chase as he falls.
Falco also suffers from pummel releases at the edge, which cause him to fall so far down that its an instant kill. And guess what, Falco camps the edge so that works out very well.
So explain to me how you always know what Falco is going to do. Also, Falco can easily recover from grab release at the edge. You clearly have never played a Falco in your life, or at least not any good ones. You also cannot shield-grab the jab if we hold it. If you predict a grab, how does your slow inhale stop it? You can grab through inhale, even if I don't have a laser to lead me in. What if I dash attack or illusion instead? How will you know? You cannot always predict what Falco will do, and just say, "well I could beat his option with that," because you don't know what he's going to do and you have to act because laser is safe.

fixed. I believe you mean chaingrab to the gatling combo? I don't play brawl but is the DACUS when you slide like snake or when you cancel a dash attack into an u-smash like in the gatling combo.
This is correct.

180 is really low?

If you are spacing to let yourself be laser jabbed/ftilted, you aren't spacing properly at all. When I post my thread on "safe zones and why 2/3rds of projectiles in Brawl suck" you'll see what I'm talking about (I'm working on it slowly. To try and make sure I won't have to revise it after I post it)
Falco can move, you're underestimating Falco's ability to move again. You're also underestimating his aerials.

What can you do about AAA combo? I believe that DDDs shield grab frames aren't fast enough to grab Falco between the first and second hit. Nor the second and third+ hits.

The only options I see to this are roll or shield. Roll will get you past the hits and into Falco's lag of the attack. If you shield the hit and simply wait for the shield to back off enough to safely lower it I think that Falco can quit the attack during the time you drop shield frames than safely get out of the way with a roll or something else.

If you happen to get caught in the attack I know you can DI out of the attack, but can you punish it if you get caught in it? If you DI away from Falco, he can still end it quickly enough to avoid getting hit by a Ftilt by powershielding. If you DI up or behind you might get caught into him ending it early to get punished by reading your DI.
THIS!!!

If a Falco player anticipates the shield grab, he can just continue jabbing until he pokes through the shield.
And the rest, basically, like it has been said, Falco can mix it up. If he anticipates a d-tilt, or an inhale he can dair. U-tilts and dairs are stopped by lasers. For the killing part, I doubt anyone can tech CG to spike every time. Lasers can also gimp your recovery somewhat if you waste your jumps.
THIS!!! Also, D3 that is forced to UpB is getting hit. End of story.

why are you hating on zelda. i might be missing something since i have not played her seriously for a very long time but it seems to me are main weakness are di-able smashes and predictable recovery. she really is not that bad and even through she is not great at approaching i never found that to be that big of deal. No one talks about this but with zelda i boxed people in s they could no longer spam and would have to get closer to me to attack. When this happened i would use zelda's range to beat my opponents. plus if you f-smash and it misses you can buffer a d-smash if your opponent comes in at you and it usually works since people think you are defenseless after the f-smash. I understand she is not a great character but with her range and strength she is not that bad and definitely not bottom 3.

Wheni use to play her i did very well top 10 almost every time in the nyc/long island area so ether i am the most amazing player ever (which i am sadly not) how people fight her has changed a huge amount or she is not that bad
Most players don't understand Zelda's frame data, and don't realize she has no options in many situations, and instead use a defensive option. She can't do anything if you run up and shield, because her grab is frame 12.

that's cool I just knew he can chaingrab to dair or gatling combo/ dacus? Could you answer my question cause that would help more:)
IAP=Instant Aerial Phantasm idk if you saw that


what percent are you chaingrabbing at? Cant the spike be meteor cancelled or is that even in this game?
There are no spikes in this game. Only meteor smashes. That means that all "spikes" can be meteor cancelled. IAP is also useful, especially as a mix-up.

Better question, what the hell is D3 doing within that range????? If the D3 is that close to Falco to get hit by jab, he's asking for trouble. D3 outranges Falco by far, and has the tools to keep Falco in that distance.



Shield DI boi.



THAT DOESN'T EVEN HIT.
DI AWAY BUDDY.
And even then, it won't kill D3. We can get up.
*sigh, it's becoming pointless to try and talk to you. You seem to think that you will always know exactly what the Falco will do and react accordingly. I can beat the best MKs with Mario if I always knew what they were going to do.

You have the wrong mindset. Your thinking about rock, paper, scissors. RPG type elements. Well, this is a fighting game with numerous variables... this isn't Final Fantasy. lol.
Not just that, but there's traps, and multiple options . . .

All projectiles are easily taken care of by power shielding. The only ones that limit options are ones that are prolonged far past the lag of the projectile.

EG:
Rob's Gyro (it's alright, cept the whole.. bye bye on shield)
Samus's weak missile (or a missile canceled strong one. bye bye on shield sucks, but they last far past the lag of the attack)
Snake's grenades
the Links' bombs (due to bouncing off shields)
Diddy's bananas
Zamus's armour pieces
To some limited degree, Wario's bike wheels. (Cept the whole bye bye on shield)
To an extremely limited degree: Falco's silent laser (and even then, only at closer distances)

Also you CAN jump against SHDL depending who you are. Also, I used to secondary Falco and I play Falco's who think Falco+Jape > Snake very often....

Snake has loads more options, and limits them far more then a laser.
Snake does NOT have loads more options than Falcos. Actually, Snake has pretty limited options. Powershielding removes the projectile, but it doesn't give you all your options. It let's Falco follow the laser through, and close distance. It lets him gain distance, it protects Falco. You're not understanding how lasers work.

Better question, what the hell is D3 doing within that range????? If the D3 is that close to Falco to get hit by jab, he's asking for trouble. D3 outranges Falco by far, and has the tools to keep Falco in that distance.

But if Falco has to keep this distance, then we are back to laser camping option.
Falco can just follow a laser and bam, distance closed. Watch some high level Falco gameplay to see what Falco can do.

wait, cant you just meteor cancel that chaingrab?
If Falco spikes you off the stage, you can just meteor cancel, but you're still offstage, and can get edgeguarded or spiked again. Then you have to get back onto the stage, through lasers/traps.
falco v. ddd is definitely in falco's favor

falco forces an approach on ddd and wins up close. please don't try and suggest to me that ddd is a better boxer than falco lmao, the only thing ddd can do up close is use offensive spotdodging, shield and grab, but falco can beat out all of those options simply by spamming his own spotdodge + jab. the only issue that falco has might be killing ddd but if worst comes to worst he'll camp his *** off and get a dash attack kill or something (frame 5 dash attack that can be initiated off of down throw reads...god **** what a **** tactic). similarly DDD doesn't have as good of tools as other characters to try and beat phantasm. it's definitely not more than a 6:4 since a good ddd can abuse grab traps + bair against falco but the problem is d3 getting in his effective range...which isn't happening vs. falco

also caliburchamp some situations are reduced to RPS but not in falco vs. ddd unless you're talking about tech reads.

btw corner traps v. ddd can be escaped by just grabbing the shield that he's obv going to use or just phantasming through the spotdodge that he does to bait you into something, it's not that difficult. similarly you can just charge fsmash and force a reaction
THIS!!!!!!!!

You mean cancel the spike, right? That depends on your damage. Also, remember D3's Up-b is VERY edgehoggable.
And very punishable. He doesn't sweetspot the edge.

No, you are misunderstanding. Here, let me show you my Falco strategy. Below is FD, D3, and Falco

___________D3__Falco_

With in this distance, D3 can not get hit by lazers without being able to punish, we are out of range of your jab, aerials become very, very predictable, as do any approaches at this distance. Meanwhile, you are still well within D3s range, and at a very, very dangerious zone being at the edge, not a good place for Falco at all. From here, what do you do?Phantom isn't going to work, we can jab you out of that easy. You would have to jump, but short hoping will put you in range for our uptilt, that's always fun :) full hopping means upair time, again we hit you out of your side b. You have to double jump, which means while you land, we have time to chase you.



You have such an awful idea of D3s moveset. Ftilt, dtilt, if spaced properly, are not punishable by the falco, and if we can easily predict and hit with forward smash or inhale.


I've already covered this. You play some bad D3s man.
LMAO! I play with Atomsk and Bschung! You're quite silly now. You can reliably hit Falco out of Phantasm, but you wouldn't even do it with jab, you'd use dtilt, ftilt, Bair or Dsmash. Also, good luck forcing that situation and getting a read, and if Falco thinks you're going to read his phantasm then guess what he's simply NOT GOING TO DO. We can also fight you on the ground by simply dash attacking or jabbing, and if you're going to shield then guess what . . . WE CAN PHANTASM. We always have options, we can also always do the same thing every other character does and shield, we can jump on your head and footstool you, we can do SOOOOO MANY things. We can ftilt you, we can space a Dair or Nair, we can grab the edge and chill out until you get too close or mess up. We can run up and grab you if you shield, we can run off the edge then DJ back up and fire Breversal lazers (Sethlon <3). There's lots of options you don't seem to understand, and you can't ever cover ALL of them. If you throw an attack, we could run up and shield. If we SH and think you will uptilt, we can SH in place and laser.

It's ALL MINDGAMES. Both players have a lot of options, and don't know what the opponent is gonig to choose. You can see who has the advantage over which character has the most reliable options at any given time during the match. In this exact senerio, it's D3, but throughout the match, it's Falco.

I'm not saying that's not a bad place for Falco to be, because you have options too. In THAT exact situation, D3 has an advantage, but he in no way has guaranteed damage on Falco, and Falco is going to AVOID that situation. He still have advantage in the MU, and definitely on FD.

And Ftilt is always punishable. You can POWERSHIELD it on reaction and dash attack or phantasm. Dtilt isn't safe on block, and is punishable by ftilt, dash attack, jab, and maybe even Usmash. Falco's spot dodge is also really broken, as it only has 2 frames of cooldown unlike the average 5 (what D3 has, btw).

I full hop, you Uair, I don't move into it, you get lasered in the face. Anything can happen, you can't always just say, "Well, in this situation, Falco is going to do this, and I'm going to do this to beat him." because you DON'T KNOW what Falco is going to do, and don't know if he's going to evade your reaction. You don't seem to have a proper grasp of player and character limits, mix-ups, mindgames, and realistic options.
 

prOAPC

Smash Lord
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OMG! i've being using the term "telegraphed" incorrectly T_T i feel like an *******
Lucas recovery is really good, is not gimpable as you said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqgnzcD17iM
and Ness LOOKS better than Lucas is because of the players, but Lucas is atill a better character
MK and Snake should have their own tier. I disagree with ICs' position, but still i don't know which character deserves the 3th spot (i'd say Falco, but most people disagree with that)
 
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Messages
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I'm decent, in no way a top.
However, simply because you are not a top player does not mean what you are talking about. It happens all the time. Many members in the backroom fit under this category, they have extensive knowledge of the game, but for whatever reason, can't apply it. My trouble comes from living 3 hours away from the tournament scene.
For instance, one of our most knowledgeably players is Gates, but he in no way is a top player, and will admit that he is an awful player, yet his knowledge of our matchups is extensive.
However, I have only loss to one Falco ever at my first tournament, and hope to keep it this way. It made me mad as hell to loose to a scrub Falco, and I studied the matchup intensely afterwords. Its stil in Falco's favor, 60-40 or 55-45, and from Seibrik has said he agrees, I'm assuming, he's never given a percent, only said that Pikachu is more of a concern. In fact, he thinks only Pikachu is are truly bad matchup.

At __crystal____, my wifi game is horrible, I'm talking about killing myself 3 times with ZSS dowair in the same match for no apprenant reason. Are you going to Pound 4?
Wifi is all I got. Cannot make it to Pound 4 because I am no where even close to it.

I still wouldn't mind playing you Crashic simply for fun.

Do not let Wifi ruin a get in the way of a good match.
 

LoganW

Smash Journeyman
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=_=
I'd also like to know. Both of these Falco's are from SoCal.
SK92 is from Vegas and I think the player was DEHF
Wait, was all the stuff Crashic was saying bs, he is really good at typing a lot of stuff and makiing himself look pretty good but ****, I was fooled silly:laugh:
Hey prOAPC that video was hella tight how did you do that ****??????
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
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my question is this: how are you actually going to get falco to approach and suddenly LAND in ftilt range? obviously he's going to be spacing outside of that part if it's really that bad, and even STILL it's highly doubtful that ddd can beat all of falco's options on reaction (in other words i don't actually believe you when you say it can be beat on reaction, SHOW ME). falco's laser, his jab, his grab and his dash attack are really all he needs. his ftilt is also a powerful tool that extends roughly the range of your dtilt - a little bit, iirc.

so long as falco is the one who is forcing the approach and the one who controls the situation, then he's winning.
We approach, we corner you in to the point on where if you try to lazer us, you get punished.
Listen, DDD can punish ALL of Metaknight's spacing options on the ground. Are you telling me that Falco is better at spacing that MK?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8317216#post8317216

Once DDD gets the lead against MK, its now in his favor.
And no, Downtilt goes farther than your ftilt, it has a disjoint.
We have the tools to get past your lazers, with power shielding, multi jumps, and the ability to punish within our range and outside of yours once we get past your lazers.
If we can beat MKs spacing, why the hell couldn't we beat Falco's?
 
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