Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

SuSa said:

Screw the 1.1 thing, this is now about Gimpyfish and why he's been gone for months and out of every thread he posts in this one.

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hahahahaha no get back to it - that's hilarious though. XD

I wanna reply to Susa but Gimpyfish owned the thread.

Gimpyfish62 said:

kinda what i was trying to express lol

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Except I said it earlier, faster, and with less words.

You're too slow!!

Oh .

guys getting off track much?

good to see ya gimpy

btw peeps if you've played 1.1 already you'll notice that alot of low tiers seem viable now and that this makes the roster have more variety in competitive play. For right now we need to do more testing before seeming becomes believing

fox is god tier btw.

hey renegade do you want to work on this with me and make some sort of info compilation comparing 1.0 and 1.1 differences?

Why does everyone want to try and balance everything? The only way for true balance is to give all characters the same moveset of for everyone to play the same character. Even then it won't be balance because of player skill level. I don't see why everyone wants balance it's a fighting game the best fighting game of all time it's the most broken unbalanced non sense ever. MvC2 for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Hell melee isn't even balanced.

With that said we do we go from here? Well for one we can stop wanting balance and actually understand that things will not be balanced. We things through off the level playing field we that is when we decide to get rid of or ban things. So one we need to accept the fact that this game isn't balanced and it will never be balanced. Two we need to strive to improve ourselves will we play this unbalanced game. Three we either use the unbalances in the game to advantage or we fight knowing that we're at a disadvantage. Four we stop whinning and man up.

For those who don't want to read my wall of text you can just watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

2 stocks = HUGE buff to ZSS. Like holy **** are you serious

Some people like this game, but they don't like the way the current metagame is played. Some people don't like how long it takes. Some people don't like seeing their characters get screwed over just because of silly game mechanics geared towards certain other characters.

People want variety in their games so that more people will play and have fun, rather than the opposite. We don't want a game full of mostly MK's, Snakes, and Diddys. We also wanna see what experiments we can pull from this game that has multiple modes but we only use one...

Don't hate on change. Something good might come from this.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

Why does everyone want to try and balance everything? The only way for true balance is to give all characters the same moveset of for everyone to play the same character. Even then it won't be balano. ce because of player skill level. I don't see why everyone wants balance it's a fighting game the best fighting game of all time it's the most broken unbalanced non sense ever. MvC2 for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Hell melee isn't even balanced.

With that said we do we go from here? Well for one we can stop wanting balance and actually understand that things will not be balanced. We things through off the level playing field we that is when we decide to get rid of or ban things. So one we need to accept the fact that this game isn't balanced and it will never be balanced. Two we need to strive to improve ourselves will we play this unbalanced game. Three we either use the unbalances in the game to advantage or we fight knowing that we're at a disadvantage. Four we stop whinning and man up.

For those who don't want to read my wall of text you can just watch this vide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

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everyone wants balance because everyone wants their character able to compete to some degree without being useless.

don't give me that bull**** comparing balance with mvc2 or even melee. did you forget SSF4? that game is actually extremely balanced between the top and high and mid tiers. the creators actually PURPOSEFULLY tried to balance the game because thats what people wanted. hell, thats what most people want.

if we have the ability to balance the game without causing people to hack their game then we should look into it.

I'm almost positive now that the e4all demo had a higher damage ratio (there were other differences too of course).

VforExtreme said:

Some people like this game, but they don't like the way the current metagame is played. Some people don't like how long it takes. Some people don't like seeing their characters get screwed over just because of silly game mechanics geared towards certain other characters.

People want variety in their games so that more people will play and have fun, rather than the opposite. We don't want a game full of mostly MK's, Snakes, and Diddys. We also wanna see what experiments we can pull from this game that has multiple modes but we only use one...

Don't hate on change. Something good might come from this.

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No, we don't. Whether or not this game has multiple modes is irrelevant. If you don't like the dominance of top tier characters you can quit, learn them or just continue playing who you're playing. Changing the mechanics of the game for the sake of "balance" after this game has been played for 2 years is silly. Video games much like real life everyone isn't on the same playing field. People are stronger smarter faster than you that is a fact of life you're going to compete with what you have or you not compete. If you can't hack it then get your jacket.

Ripple said:

everyone wants balance because everyone wants their character able to compete to some degree without being useless.

don't give me that bull**** comparing balance with mvc2 or even melee. did you forget SSF4? that game is actually extremely balanced between the top and high and mid tiers. the creators actually PURPOSEFULLY tried to balance the game because thats what people wanted. hell, thats what most people want.

if we have the ability to balance the game without causing people to hack their game then we should look into it.

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However, how far are they going for the sake of balance? While I also play SSFIV I am not looking forward to the arcade editions nor am I looking forward to having to buy yet another repackaged version of the same game. Honestly, I don't think I'll continue if they slap turbo on SSFIV and try to resell it for 30 bucks. Nor am I paying for downloadable content. Even though they try to "balance" the game it's still up to players to bring out characters potential. Gamerbbee with Adon Luffy with Rose those characters that was considered low tier. There's also more of a chance for a Ryu, Guile, Chun. Ehonda to be at top than a Makoto , Hakan, Dudley, or Sakura. In actuality that game isn't balance at all they just nerfed sagat from vanilla added new characters and that basically pushed up the bad characters. They also hit gen with the nerf hammer super hard. There's other things about that game that I could go into however, it's really not balanced at all. here's a perfect example if it was balanced every character would be able to punish Blanka balls on block however, they can't. Only some characters can while other characters can punish blanka balls on hit (balrog) Where exactly is the balance in that? Let's not get into Wake up options or lack their of (juri, makot, hakan) Or the Vortex Akuma, Ibuki. But keep thing SSFIV is balanced.


Edit: re read your post and you brought up top and mid tiers only. I'd just like to point out if you factor the top and mid tiers of brawl only then the game is extremely balanced. Just saying. Your purposely left out low tiers to try and attempt to prove a point however even within mid tiers of Super there are characters who can't keep up juri, dudley, blanka, Zangief. But like I said MvC2 is the best fighting game ever and it wasn't balanced. SO why do we need balance ? Also there's a difference between the creatures balancing the game and random people making random tweaks Brawl+ Brawl - no tripping and ren's proposal.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

If you can't hack it then get your jacket.

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This doesnt' even make any sense.

Anyway, this is very different from hacking or surgical bans or anything else. Damage Ratio is a meter in the game we can adjust. We aren't just saying "no, you can't do X" or "don't fly under the stage X times" or anything like that, we're changing an option in the menu that was likely accidentally ****ed up before release anyway.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

No, we don't. Whether or not this game has multiple modes is irrelevant. If you don't like the dominance of top tier characters you can quit, learn them or just continue playing who you're playing. Changing the mechanics of the game for the sake of "balance" after this game has been played for 2 years is silly. Video games much like real life everyone isn't on the same playing field. People are stronger smarter faster than you that is a fact of life you're going to compete with what you have or you not compete. If you can't hack it then get your jacket.

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this is a fairly BAD argument legendary.

we are not changing the game mechanics. everything is stronger, that's it. it doesn't change properties of the game itself.

2. balancing a game after its been out for 2 years is not stupid at all. and is a terrible argument. again SSF4 had a new standard after 1.5 years. they balanced the game on PURPOSE without changing game mechanics.

don't compare real life and video games. it makes you look stupid. EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE wants balance to a certain degree and not a 3 character metagame

Supermodel From Paris said:

This doesnt' even make any sense.

Anyway, this is very different from hacking or surgical bans or anything else. Damage Ratio is a meter in the game we can adjust. We aren't just saying "no, you can't do X" or "don't fly under the stage X times" or anything like that, we're changing an option in the menu that was likely accidentally ****ed up before release anyway.

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If you're not willing to compete then leave.

Ripple said:

this is a fairly BAD argument legendary.

we are not changing the game mechanics. everything is stronger, that's it. it doesn't change properties of the game itself.

2. balancing a game after its been out for 2 years is not stupid at all. and is a terrible argument. again SSF4 had a new standard after 1.5 years. they balanced the game on PURPOSE without changing game mechanics.

don't compare real life and video games. it makes you look stupid. EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE wants balance to a certain degree and not a 3 character metagame

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How does adding damage not change the properties of the game ?

SSFIV has been out for about 8 months. There was a balancing done by the game designers not ya know random people on the interwebz I think ther's a big difference. There also were different changes to the game that wasn't there in vanilla.

Why can't I compare the video games to real life ? Does what you guys want out of the video game not be held to every day life ?

Also it isn't a 3 character metagame. Or have you forgotten what Nick Riddle, Shaky, San, X , Reflex, esam, boss, etc etc etc have down in this game? So would you like to amend you statement can i also mention DEHF or is falco about of the 3 character metagame ? hmmm Diddy MK snake....then there's also brood who was extremely impressive with Oli at apex...you sure it's only a 3 character metagame? I'd also like to present melee into the argument where it's been out for a long time and while people consider fox marth falco to be the top mango has shown what Jigglypuff can do. It's extremely arrogant of you to claim that it's only a 3 character metagame after only 2 years. This game doesn't need balance it needs players willing to put in the work and stop begging for tweaks and balances. Also I'd like to mention Biglou and Will and other player who doesn't play this 3 character metagame you're declaring exist. SHout out to all wario mains also.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

Why does everyone want to try and balance everything? The only way for true balance is to give all characters the same moveset of for everyone to play the same character. Even then it won't be balance because of player skill level. I don't see why everyone wants balance it's a fighting game the best fighting game of all time it's the most broken unbalanced non sense ever. MvC2 for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Hell melee isn't even balanced.

With that said we do we go from here? Well for one we can stop wanting balance and actually understand that things will not be balanced. We things through off the level playing field we that is when we decide to get rid of or ban things. So one we need to accept the fact that this game isn't balanced and it will never be balanced. Two we need to strive to improve ourselves will we play this unbalanced game. Three we either use the unbalances in the game to advantage or we fight knowing that we're at a disadvantage. Four we stop whinning and man up.

For those who don't want to read my wall of text you can just watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

Click to expand...

There's a very, VERY big difference between implementing rules to raise a character up to standard (say, LGLs to make Falco viable, or Punch Time for ganon...) and changing game-internal settings to make the game a better, more reliable game.

We should never stop aiming for balance within the confines of the game. Clearly, we should stop where the game stops letting us (i.e. there's no option "person with most ledgegrabs loses" in-game, we shouldn't add it), but within the game itself? If all items on high, 4-way ffas with a damage ratio of 2.0 and 50 stocks was the most competitive and fair method... Go for it (obviously it isn't).

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

No, we don't. Whether or not this game has multiple modes is irrelevant. If you don't like the dominance of top tier characters you can quit, learn them or just continue playing who you're playing. Changing the mechanics of the game for the sake of "balance" after this game has been played for 2 years is silly. Video games much like real life everyone isn't on the same playing field. People are stronger smarter faster than you that is a fact of life you're going to compete with what you have or you not compete. If you can't hack it then get your jacket.

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This is bad and you should feel bad. Justify your decision to play with 1.0 when (assuming) 1.1 is better for overall balance and the competitive metagame. Imagine that we had been playing with 1.1 the whole time. Would there be any argument to switch to 1.0? "But the game is more unfair!"

...

GTFO.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

Also it isn't a 3 character metagame. Or have you forgotten what Nick Riddle, Shaky, San, X , Reflex, esam, boss, etc etc etc have down in this game? So would you like to amend you statement can i also mention DEHF or is falco about of the 3 character metagame ? hmmm Diddy MK snake....then there's also brood who was extremely impressive with Oli at apex...you sure it's only a 3 character metagame? I'd also like to present melee into the argument where it's been out for a long time and while people consider fox marth falco to be the top mango has shown what Jigglypuff can do. It's extremely arrogant of you to claim that it's only a 3 character metagame after only 2 years. This game doesn't need balance it needs players willing to put in the work and stop begging for tweaks and balances. Also I'd like to mention Biglou and Will and other player who doesn't play this 3 character metagame you're declaring exist. SHout out to all wario mains also.

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do you have any idea what this metagame is like? don't even try for 1 second to convince me the the brawl metagame is a healthy 11 characters that place CONSISTANTLY HIGH AT NATIONALS.

you mentioned outliers of characters. just because 1-2 people can beat a few top MKs doesn't mean that this metagame is not overrun by the top 3-4 characters.

look results not people.

edit: high five BPC!

Ripple said:

hey renegade do you want to work on this with me and make some sort of info compilation comparing 1.0 and 1.1 differences?

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Share that info with me if you can. I might try and make a video about 1.1 changes and put it up on youtube.

Okay, arguments against:

Ness still has GR stuff on him, as do Wario and Lucas.
Fair is more easily DI'd, making one damage racking move less viable.
PKfire isn't useful at all anymore, because it is so easy to SDI out of.
Yoyo isn't easy to have combo into itself (dsmash is what I mean)... but I think I need to test this more.
DAS is less viable, as the combo-age is for a much shorter range of percents.

Jab locks for some characters will not last long at all.
Snake gets buff by being able to escape more combos.
MK's attacks are fairly easily SDI'd, but he does kill earlier.
I like the few infinites.... BUT! IC's still have their infinite and are potentially helped by the damage ratio increase by a shorter amount of time racking up damage to get to their assured Usmash kill out of grab chain... many of IC's attacks aren't specifically meant to combo anyways, so it'll be an annoyance fighting him from now on.


I just feel there is too much of a change overall, however minor it may seem to some people, to actually validate the increase of the damage ratio.

Eagleye893 said:

nothing intelligent

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terrible reasons. try not to be extremely biased

Eagleye893 said:

Okay, arguments against:

Ness still has GR stuff on him, as do Wario and Lucas.
Fair is more easily DI'd, making one damage racking move less viable.
PKfire isn't useful at all anymore, because it is so easy to SDI out of.
Yoyo isn't easy to have combo into itself (dsmash is what I mean)... but I think I need to test this more.
DAS is less viable, as the combo-age is for a much shorter range of percents.

Jab locks for some characters will not last long at all.
Snake gets buff by being able to escape more combos.
MK's attacks are fairly easily SDI'd, but he does kill earlier.
I like the few infinites.... BUT! IC's still have their infinite and are potentially helped by the damage ratio increase by a shorter amount of time racking up damage to get to their assured Usmash kill out of grab chain... many of IC's attacks aren't specifically meant to combo anyways, so it'll be an annoyance fighting him from now on.


I just feel there is too much of a change overall, however minor it may seem to some people, to actually validate the increase of the damage ratio.

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Not even trying to be mean, but this is one of the worst posts I've seen arguing against the change in this thread so far, lol.

On a side note, I'm actually surprised at how so many people are open to this. For once the community isn't acting completely closed-minded. As for how I feel about it... I dunno, seems interesting, I guess.

Eagleye893 said:

Okay, arguments against:

Ness still has GR stuff on him, as do Wario and Lucas.

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This is like saying, "sure, that new clean power plant may provide tons of electricity for all of us, but it doesn't give us all free blowjobs as well". Yes, these abuses still exist, and you can't do **** about them. But let's not focus on what this doesn't do, eh?

PKfire isn't useful at all anymore, because it is so easy to SDI out of.

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PK fire was ever useful against opponents who weren't asleep? News to me... Furthermore, boo hoo. We have one low tier who is weaker in this situation. Compare to 5-6 low tiers who become far more viable, overall balance help...

Jab locks for some characters will not last long at all.

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Oh look, an abusive tactic is less abusive...

Snake gets buff by being able to escape more combos.

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Combos? In mah brawl? Also not really.

MK's attacks are fairly easily SDI'd, but he does kill earlier.

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Is this 1.1 or 1.5? :V Also, GOOD! If MK is weakened by this, we may not have to ban him!

I like the few infinites.... BUT! IC's still have their infinite and are potentially helped by the damage ratio increase by a shorter amount of time racking up damage to get to their assured Usmash kill out of grab chain... many of IC's attacks aren't specifically meant to combo anyways, so it'll be an annoyance fighting him from now on.

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Err... newsflash. Against a good ICs, one grab = death. This only hurts them.

@Ripple, Colaya:

Budget Player Cadet_ said:

There's a very, VERY big difference between implementing rules to raise a character up to standard (say, LGLs to make Falco viable, or Punch Time for ganon...) and changing game-internal settings to make the game a better, more reliable game.

We should never stop aiming for balance within the confines of the game. Clearly, we should stop where the game stops letting us (i.e. there's no option "person with most ledgegrabs loses" in-game, we shouldn't add it), but within the game itself? If all items on high, 4-way ffas with a damage ratio of 2.0 and 50 stocks was the most competitive and fair method... Go for it (obviously it isn't).



This is bad and you should feel bad. Justify your decision to play with 1.0 when (assuming) 1.1 is better for overall balance and the competitive metagame. Imagine that we had been playing with 1.1 the whole time. Would there be any argument to switch to 1.0? "But the game is more unfair!"

...

GTFO.

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What's the difference between making rules to favor some characters or changing the mechanics of the game. Increase the damage ratio changes a lot of aspects of the game some of which we are not aware of. So I'd like you to point to me why would we make these changes for the sake in an attempt to "balance". If you feel as though changing the damage ratio is for the sake of the greater good or better for the community please shove it. I don't think anyone will be willing to play on 1.1 nor would people agree to play it in huge numbers. So we take what's brawl given us and we deal with it. We try to improve and we get better. Instead of changing mechanics to artificially nerf /buff characters Let's just keep it the way it is and allow players to make the necessary adjustments. If you've even seen a tourney results the past 20 months they've made the adjustments and it will only continue to improve from there.

I don't care for balance nor do I expect balance. Nothing you do or want is going to be balanced. If you want uniformity and balance in your life or out of video games then you're looking in the wrong direction. Also you could change the game modes in MvC2 and settings to make the gameplay faster etc etc etc but that doesn't mean it makes it right. So changing internal settings for the sake of balance doesn't make it right. Like I've stated the only way to have true balance is for all the characters to have the same movements and same ground speed. Please can Zelda have the same run speed as sonic? that would make things more balanced. Can Zelda's uair be the same speed as MK that will make things more balanced can Zelda's utilt be the same speed as Pit's that would balance her can you make Zelda's jab the same speed as ZSS it would make things balanced. Stop living in a delusional world nothing or any changes you make will make anything balanced. Work with what you have now or don't even pick up the controller.

Ripple said:

do you have any idea what this metagame is like? don't even try for 1 second to convince me the the brawl metagame is a healthy 11 characters that place CONSISTANTLY HIGH AT NATIONALS.

you mentioned outliers of characters. just because 1-2 people can beat a few top MKs doesn't mean that this metagame is not overrun by the top 3-4 characters.

look results not people.

edit: high five BPC!

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So now it's 3-4 characters...I see. However, I'd like to say the fact that people are able to beat other top players with these characters show the potential of these characters. instead of make arbitrary changes why not continue to let the game develop and grow? Why would you be willing to change the game before we have even fleshed out everything about this game? Why are you even willing to change the game?

You're a DK main and you're willing to accept the fact that he get's CG by d3 and the walking CG and infinite if not banned. You also are within your right to use other characters so that you can win. However, by doing so you're not actually learning the MU. I shutter to think what the thoughts of the DK vs D3 match up was now and then to see Haze losing to OOk with d3 on GG's something which thought to be impossible. Also I believe that Shaky beat Mike Haze (marth vs ness). Fow vs tryant (ness vs MK) Both consider horrible MU's for these characters. Anther at Apex 1, Brood at Apex 2, San at MLG, Shaky at MLG, Esam at MLG, Krystedez vs DEHF at MLG Big Lou @ MLG.

Since nationals are a problem let's look at players regions.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278504


This thread shows the power rankings of each state and that's states metagame. It also shows other countries Canada and Mexico and Australia.

So tell me how are these regions can have different characters in their states power rankings yet you want to right the metagme off as just 3-4 characters? Once again I ask you how arrogant can you possibly be?

Works:
Mario (no up+n)
Donkey Kong
Marth (no Up+B)
Luigi
Meta Knight (no Up+b)
Falco
Peach
Ness
Yoshi
Pit
Lucas
R.O.B.
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Zelda
Sheik
Pikachu
Samus
Sonic
Ice Climbers
Game and Watch
Olimar
ZSS

Doesn't Work:
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Link
Ike
Bowser
Wolf
Wario
Charizard
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

These are the characters ZSS can jab and not jab in 1.1. This isn't super relevant to the thread, but what do all of the "have nots" have in common? I was really surprised by Diddy...

does the stun gun mechanics change any for ZSS? like her neutral b, down smash?

Thinkaman, er combo only connects on like 8 characters in vBrawl. In 1.1, connects to most characters. Also, higher hitstun means slightly higher shieldstun which makes shielding not quite as safe (still pretty safe though), if I'm not mistaken. I'd need to test this formally but shielding doesn't feel quite as good.

@Dark 3nergy:

Yes. Her stuns are based on knockback, so, they last longer based on the fact that knockback is 10% stronger. If the stun lasts 2 seconds, it now lasts 2.2 etc. At 0% in 1.1, a weak Paralyzer connects to a grab. It's a beautiful thing.

The extra hitstun makes a lot of multihit moves connect more easily, too, like Marth's nair and ZSS' usmash. BUT, it's easier to DI out of them on purpose. It just doesn't happen anymore because you happened to be flying X direction when hit.

that does sound pretty sweet, ill have to check DDDs multi hit moves as well

Try:

Pit's usmash
Link's usmash
ZSS' usmash
Marth's nair
Ganon's dsmash?

etc

Thinkaman: in 1.0, try doing a dashing usmash with ZSS on any light character. They fly out. Try doing in 1.1, they don't.

I'm not gonna respond to legendary, for obvious reasons. I can't even come up with an analogy bad enough to represent what he is saying.

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I remember you you're that jigglypuff main that decide instead of getting ***** in brawl you're going to make balanced brawl and buff jiggly puff and nerf other characters....you're cool...not

Thinkaman said:

I'm not gonna respond to legendary, for obvious reasons. I can't even come up with an analogy bad enough to represent what he is saying.

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

I remember you you're that jigglypuff main that decide instead of getting ***** in brawl you're going to make balanced brawl and buff jiggly puff and nerf other characters....you're cool...not

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I can't express how much I enjoyed this exchange.

Thinkaman: Than what about 1.1 is causing moves to connect in better ways? If you dair with peach, they no longer fly around, they sit in one place and the whole hit connects cleanly. It looks like it was designed to function that way (again, I suspect the damage ratio was changed and untested).

Hell, jigglypuff has frame advantage after dair. O_o

Thinkaman said:

There's no reason this should be true. Are you sure you are doing a completely honest direct comparison between the two, with all else being equal? This is not what I see on my screen.

And Jigglypuff has always had a frame advantage after dair. (It varies based on knockback/percent yes, as well as move timing across a 6 frame auto-cancel window out of SH)

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I dunno, set a CPU to 9 and they shoudl try to DI out. It just looks different.

Heres what the CG for DDD looks like pretty much now;