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Planking Info (G&W Added)
- Thread starter DMG
- Start date
MKs uair on shield would give you at least 5 frames of hitlag.
Its 6 damage yeah?
Sounds about right then.
5 frames is feasible to allow 2 SDI inputs, that should well be enough to force you off the ledge... it would be some sort of DPM to do it then grab the ledge though.
shield knockback occurs during shield stun. The shield knockback of MKs uair is pitiful anyway.
Its 6 damage yeah?
Sounds about right then.
5 frames is feasible to allow 2 SDI inputs, that should well be enough to force you off the ledge... it would be some sort of DPM to do it then grab the ledge though.
shield knockback occurs during shield stun. The shield knockback of MKs uair is pitiful anyway.
It's enough apparently to throw off the fastest edge snap possible frames onstage by 2-3 frames at least. That's pretty nice.
Now are you sure it's 5 frames of hitlag on a shield? That's more than the shield stun, and in the frame data thread it says that the Differential is 0. That leads me to believe that it's either 2 or less.
Now are you sure it's 5 frames of hitlag on a shield? That's more than the shield stun, and in the frame data thread it says that the Differential is 0. That leads me to believe that it's either 2 or less.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
he didn't sweet spot, but, I know that song, but from where ****it.
Shield stun is damage divided by 3.
Hit Lag on shields is always constant based on the damage of the move (not sure of the formula though).
Marths jab is 4 damage and has 4 or 5 frames of hitlag on shield.
Hit Lag on shields is always constant based on the damage of the move (not sure of the formula though).
Marths jab is 4 damage and has 4 or 5 frames of hitlag on shield.
Crow!
Smash Lord
This is easy enough to check in PSA.
*Loads up PSA*
G&W's SpecialHi animation script:
After 4 frames:
Body Collision Intangible
After 13 frames:
Body Collision Normal
Can grab ledge
(lots of other stuff is happening in the script too, of course.)
Pika Up-B:
This action is complicated.. I navigated the labryth of sub functions for a bit, but wasn't able to find edge grabability being set or unset. I suspect the answer is "however long the startup animation is", but I'd need brawlbox skills to check that.
Pit SpecialHi animiation script:
Instantly ("frame 1" or "after 0 frames"):
Body Collision Intangible
After 5 frames:
Body type normal
No reference to ledge grabability: I again suspect that you can grab as soon as the startup ends.
I do have a method to check the number of frames in those startup animations without brawlbox, but it'll take me a bit more effort to get. In any case, you now have G&W.
J4pu
Smash Champion
Does that mean UpB ?
Pierce, you're assuming that they grab the edge the same time that MK appears from his DownB (since you said cooldown not entire duration)
If MK is just ledge-dropping > DownB it would be possible to grab the edge as soon as he releases it thus you should be able to release it soon after MK actually gains the invincibility meaning that it is possible to have the full cooldown time to enact your punishment. I expect any character could punish it.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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- legendnumberM
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playing to win at its best.
playing to win @ its second best.
I've been making the Akuma = MK comparison since the beginning of the Mk ban talks. Hell, even his Final Smash looks like a Raging Demon.
Edit Edit Edit: Wait a minute......... I'm reading around and if my eyes don't deceive thee, MLG is picking up Brawl... so like, they'll be using the SBR Recommended Ruleset version 2.0, right?
This just got real. There is literally no reason to not play MK in the MLG (assuming they take the aforementioned ruleset as is).
Just wondering, if snake comes to lay the C4, couldn't MK just go to the other edge?
Nanaki
Smash Lord
Assuming you're not playing at Frigate, yes.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Great read, this **** is gayer than I originally thought...
*EDIT: Did... Adumbrodeus just say what I think he did?
*EDIT: Did... Adumbrodeus just say what I think he did?
Lee Martin
Smash Ace
HOLY crap. I read ALL of that bobby.
Well this has gotten a bit convoluted quickly. Perhaps a second "Discuss DMG's thread's effect on the MK ban movement" thread is in order to preserve this one a bit.
But since no such thread exists I'll have to say this here, unfortunately distracting from the real planking discussion:
I've seen some good points, but from what's currently known I think we can say MK's planking is a few notches above the rest at any rate. And while I can't see a LGL being a bad thing there are too many inherent flaws for it to be an end all be all decision.
I'd like to throw out a hilariously outlandish analogy to further (or reiterate) discussion:
You have a boxing arena with open tournaments for the locals. Everyone who cares in the slightest about boxing shows up and competes... except one of them happens to be The Incredible Hulk (read: Meta Knight). People are not happy about this, and think the experience would be better for everyone if he weren't allowed to participate. However it would be unfair to poor little Hulky to disallow him for being himself. People argue but begrudgingly accept it. However, now it turns out the Hulk has had a rocket launcher (read: planking) this entire time, but just now intends to use it in competitions. (don't ask where he got the thing, this is the Hulk we're talking about / like it needs to make sense / god DMG get off my back already) Clearly this is too far out of the realm of a boxing tournament and everyone agrees something must be done about it. Telling him to get rid of the launcher would be a start, but unfortunately the Hulk is a bit on the slow side and rarely follows rules unless a TO is actively watching him (which is just too much to ask for). So the question is: Do we ban his rocket launcher, accepting that it may be an imperfect ban on top of him being the Hulk? Or do we decide that the threat of the Hulk and a rocket launcher is more than we can take and ban the Hulk outright?
I call this "Dietz's Infallible Hulk Analogy" quote it with love.
It's a tough (and hilarious) call that brings up some some arbitrary decisions either way, but something should be done sooner rather than later. Personally I'm pro ban as it's less messy... not that I'm bias or anything >.>
You're such a quitter XD, this is why I beat you in tournaments
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I know. When I looked at the data DMG presented my mind was blown.
I felt like laughing because its that bad yet that good too.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
So, uh, ban MK right?
lol
The day the BBR cosigns that is the day MLG reconsiders EVERYTHING they've just announced.
tl;dr, BBR won't advise it. :V
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Except, now it's fair, this is literally broken. Aesthetics be da**ed, what matters is effect.
I can neither confirm nor deny that the MLG ruleset will be
Yes, you did, I already stated that planking is something with the potential to be truly gamebreaking, and if so, it needed to be banned. If it cannot be banned effectively, then MK must be banned.
Not sure yet, we'll have to see, if this can't be discretely enforcably banned in a way that doesn't either destroy the ledge game for everyone else or not deal with the problem (like it looks like the ledgegrab rule does), then we're looking at something that the entire community will be forced to accept.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
*whistles.*
Well, if this is what it takes.
GG Metaknight.
Smooth Criminal
Well, if this is what it takes.
GG Metaknight.
Smooth Criminal
cutter
Smash Champion
I will admit, I defended planking for a while because I thought the tactic was preemptively banned too soon after Axis roughly a year and a half ago. I am one from the school of thought that does not like banning stuff until it becomes a legitimate problem.
This frame data opened my eyes though, and after I looked at the numbers and options that come from these numbers, my jaw dropped.
Finally, progress has been made. Instead of squabbling constantly over subjective opinion like the community had been ever since this started, cold, hard data is actually being USED for applications of this magnitude.
Good shizz DMG
.
This frame data opened my eyes though, and after I looked at the numbers and options that come from these numbers, my jaw dropped.
Finally, progress has been made. Instead of squabbling constantly over subjective opinion like the community had been ever since this started, cold, hard data is actually being USED for applications of this magnitude.
Good shizz DMG
.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
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- 991
Tethers and pikachu should be able to punish a stolen ledge should the MK land onstage.
J4pu
Smash Champion
fixed, recheck the frame data he used vs the frame data that is possible to use
Hint: you can grab the edge before the cooldown lag of DC
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Yeah a ledge grab rule that applies solely to MK, I'd say, fixes this.
Like I, and a few other people have said, if it makes the game unplayable then it's stalling. A ledge grab rule that applies to MK is an easy way to enforce this (DMG is right that you can't objectively DQ someone for "planking", but a ledge grab rule is fairly objective (the only subjective thing is number of ledge grabs, and that's no different than number of lives, amount of time, etc)).
Is there anything wrong with a ledge grab limit other than the amount of ledge grabs being subjective (other rules already have subjective numbers, and they work fine)?
LuLLo
Smash Ace
A ledgegrab rule only for MK wouldn't make things much different I think, the MK can always just hang there until he automatically falls down, then use all of his jumps combined with Uair for a max of 10 seconds invulnerability (seriously, who goes chasing after MK, even if he doesn't have invincibility frames?). You would have to make the ledgegrab rule pretty tight, like 30 or something, and even that can be capitalized on by MK's.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
You would have to be a ****** to just let him just hang on the ledge until he automatically falls...
Hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames isn't planking, it's capitilizing on your opponent not even attempting to attack you while you're vulnerable.
And, yeah, I think 30-35 only applicable by timeout (those rulesets where you can get DQ'd for going over WITHOUT going to timeout are just stupid) is an okay amount (it's one that doesn't seem like it should happen without attempting to plank).
Hanging on the ledge without invincibility frames isn't planking, it's capitilizing on your opponent not even attempting to attack you while you're vulnerable.
And, yeah, I think 30-35 only applicable by timeout (those rulesets where you can get DQ'd for going over WITHOUT going to timeout are just stupid) is an okay amount (it's one that doesn't seem like it should happen without attempting to plank).
J4pu
Smash Champion
with those rules, say the opponent is counting, and he sees MK grabs the edge over the allowed amount, the opponent now runs away for the rest of the match because he knows regardless of whether or not he's behind in stock/% he wins. Is this ok in your opinion? Yeah, it's the MK's fault for grabbing the edge that many times but is this really something we want to allow to happen?
I like the full ban better
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^Don't plank, then.
There's no ****ing way you'll go over 35 ledge grabs without trying to plank. I mean for example, look at the Larry vs Tyrant matches. They are campy as hell and Tyrant sometimes even camps the ledge. A lot of them go to time out without even planking. But Tyrant still doesn't go over the ledge grab limit.
And I guarantee MKs would prefer a situational loss that if they aren't stupid won't happen anyways, instead of an unnecesary full ban.
There's no ****ing way you'll go over 35 ledge grabs without trying to plank. I mean for example, look at the Larry vs Tyrant matches. They are campy as hell and Tyrant sometimes even camps the ledge. A lot of them go to time out without even planking. But Tyrant still doesn't go over the ledge grab limit.
And I guarantee MKs would prefer a situational loss that if they aren't stupid won't happen anyways, instead of an unnecesary full ban.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
And so then I grab the ledge 34 times. What now?
theunabletable
Smash Lord
If the ledge grab limit is 35 then you don't lose.
Obviously if you've only grabbed the ledge 34 times you didn't do the hardcore planking that DMG is proposing.
Obviously if you've only grabbed the ledge 34 times you didn't do the hardcore planking that DMG is proposing.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
No, not at all. Then you are only limiting my planking, but I can still hardcore plank. Serlin has an article on it that I would dig up, but can't at the moment. I can still plank for a good part of the match and use it to time you out.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^You can't do the unbeatable planking that DMG is talking about for very long without going over 30 ledge grabs.
And if 30 isn't enough, maybe try 25.
Although looking at tournaments with ledge grab limits, and all the videos and matches I've seen, I've never seen someone win a match with JUST the hardcore planking that DMG is talking about.
When I see someone show the potential to win a tournament JUST BECAUSE of planking with a 25-30 ledge grab limit, then I may agree with you. But I've never seen that happen. From what I've seen, this limitation is completely adequate at what it'd be made for.
And if 30 isn't enough, maybe try 25.
Although looking at tournaments with ledge grab limits, and all the videos and matches I've seen, I've never seen someone win a match with JUST the hardcore planking that DMG is talking about.
When I see someone show the potential to win a tournament JUST BECAUSE of planking with a 25-30 ledge grab limit, then I may agree with you. But I've never seen that happen. From what I've seen, this limitation is completely adequate at what it'd be made for.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
whoa now, 25 to 30 is far too low. Let's take an assumption here, Marth is fighting DDD, what DDD loves to do in this matchup is keep Marth pinned down on the edge, build up damage, and explot Marth's trouble of getting back on stage against D3 (but he doens't chase him off stage). Now, in this matchup, should things for some time go as the D3 has planned, Marth will probably, and naturally be, over the 25 ledge grab limit. We can also bring up the many other situations in matches where this is likely to happen, where a character is trying to get back on stage with no viable way and keeps getting pushed back to the edge.
By limiting and putting a number on it, you are not banning it directly, but banning something that is involved with it since you can not ban it directly.
Even then, with a ledge grab limit, Metaknight has an advantage there that other charecters don't have, flight and multiple jumps. He can use this to mix up planking, flying under the stage, and so called 'air planking' as well as abusing his many, many ledge tricks to get around the ledge limit and still not technically stall while abusing the ledge.
By that standard Unable, you'd be willing to allow IDC to be legal until someone wins a tournament with it.
By limiting and putting a number on it, you are not banning it directly, but banning something that is involved with it since you can not ban it directly.
Even then, with a ledge grab limit, Metaknight has an advantage there that other charecters don't have, flight and multiple jumps. He can use this to mix up planking, flying under the stage, and so called 'air planking' as well as abusing his many, many ledge tricks to get around the ledge limit and still not technically stall while abusing the ledge.
By that standard Unable, you'd be willing to allow IDC to be legal until someone wins a tournament with it.
1048576
Smash Master
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If you want to set the LGL low enough to actually be effective, then you're going to cause some overlap with causing DQ's for legitimate usage of the ledge to recover.
IMO, Brawl would be a better game if the LGL was like 20 or something, and people developed certain tactics and strategies centered around this condition.
IMO, Brawl would be a better game if the LGL was like 20 or something, and people developed certain tactics and strategies centered around this condition.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
How is causing people to be DQed by accident a good thing and make the game better? DDD can abuse that ledge grab limit against anyone he can chain grab who doesn't have an amazing recovery game.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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How is causing Falco, Diddy and Snake artificially boosted in their rankings b/c they have an amazing on stage game but lousy off stage game, but b/c of the LGL, characters like Gdubs are artificially hurt b/c they excel off stage and not totally on stage(although he isn't totally invincible like MK) fine?