Legend of Zelda Archive: Theory Thread

[Luigitoilet]

A bit nitpicky but Link is certainly awake in the MM opening, on Epona.

 

[Spire]

So how did Link actually create the lore of Termina's beginning? Where did he take that from?

And even then, how does it support the hero's shade theory?

I actually did some research on this. For the longest time, I believed that Termina was created as a byproduct of the Goddesses creating Hyrule, but could find no source to support this. What's interesting about Link's mind creating the Four Giants is that Link never actually saw the Three Goddesses in Hyrule, so his mind filled in the blank with these obscure beings.

Honestly, I don't want to think of it all as a dream. I want Termina to be a tangible part of the Zeldaverse.

A bit nitpicky but Link is certainly awake in the MM opening, on Epona.

Yeah I just watched the video. Well he's drowsy, so it at least hints to the sleep.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Or maybe, when Epona was startled by a sudden light and Link was thrown off, Link is knocked unconscious, similar to how Dorothy wound up dreaming about Oz.

I like the theory, but as you said we all want (or should want) Termina to be a tangible part of the Zelda Universe.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Termina is part of Hyrule. I refuse to think otherwise.

 

[Spire]

Termina is part of Hyrule. I refuse to think otherwise.

Part of Hyrule? Hyrule is just one kingdom. Holodrum, Lanayru, and New Hyrule aren't even part of Hyrule. Termina is beyond even all of these, it's in an alternate dimension altogether.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Well, they are linked. English = not native language fail ^_^

 

[Spire]

Well, they are linked. English = not native language fail ^_^

Well your English has proven adequate enough to pass for a native (trust me, there are those who primarily speak English and are terrible at it). And yes, they are linked, but by what? An interdimensional warp? There are so many mysteries surrounding Termina that just can't be answered without another game's release.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm uninformed about the OoX games, how does link actually end up on those worlds/realms/dimensions?
Considering the nature of the Lost Woods, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the home of dimensional warps. The Lost Woods are left vague enough by the developers to actually be able to do pretty much everythng, which I like a lot about the area.

And thanks, I try to keep my posts readable

 

[Spire]

I'm uninformed about the OoX games, how does link actually end up on those worlds/realms/dimensions?
Considering the nature of the Lost Woods, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the home of dimensional warps. The Lost Woods are left vague enough by the developers to actually be able to do pretty much everythng, which I like a lot about the area.

And thanks, I try to keep my posts readable

In the introductions to OoX, Link enters Hyrule Castle and approaches the Triforce, which warps him to Holodrum/Labrynna. They are tangible worlds as far as we know, because once Link has defeated Onox, Veran, Twinrova, Ganon, and saved Zelda, he sets out on a boat to return to Hyrule/continue adventuring (and the boat looks ridiculously similar to the boat seen in the intro to LA). This is why so many like myself support LA following the Oracles.

 

[Tacel]

You know how sometimes you have dreams and in those dreams things happen that relate to the previous day?
Well, here are some things that support the dream theory (as much as I hope that Termina's real)
Similarities:
Termina / Hyrule
Odolwa battle / Gerudo battles
Goht battle / King Dodongo battle
Gyorg battle / Morpha battle
Twinmold battle / Leevers
Clock Town / Castle Town
Woodfall / Death Mountain
Snowhead / Freezards
Romani Ranch / Lon Lon Ranch
Woods of Mystery / Lost Woods
Woodfall Temple / Forest Temple
Great Bay Temple / Water Temple
Collecting Fairies / Collecting Golden Skulltulas

And there's the simple matches, such as...
Gorons / Gorons
Zoras / Zoras
Great Fairy / Great Fairy
(ect.)

 

[Spire]

^ Yes, definitely. Also, because Link was close with Malon when she was both young and older, in the theoretical Termina dream, he gets to know both of them (Romani and Cremia).

Also, the only real "job" Link ever had in OoT was trading masks for the Happy Mask Salesman. In MM, he is tasked with retrieving Majora's Mask (the focus of the game) for the HMS. Hmm... Because the HMS is supposedly based on Miyamoto and because Miyamoto asked Aonuma to make a whole Zelda game in only a year (such a difficult task), perhaps this was Aonuma's way of saying a little "**** you" to Miyamoto. Majora's Mask is the game that Aonuma had to make and the item that Link has to chase after. Miyamoto is the Happy Mask Salesman pulling the strings.

Whoa.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

How does Link actually dream of all this new technology? This could work 2 ways though.
1. He dreamt it and forgot it afterwards, so it isn't in Hyrule any time soon
2. It was real and he didn't bother spreading it through Hyrule.

Yeah, but how does he make up all the technology? Ugh, so vague.

 

[Spire]

How does Link actually dream of all this new technology? This could work 2 ways though.
1. He dreamt it and forgot it afterwards, so it isn't in Hyrule any time soon
2. It was real and he didn't bother spreading it through Hyrule.

Yeah, but how does he make up all the technology? Ugh, so vague.

This is a good point. Though, I've seen and experienced things in my dreams that I've never before in my conscious life. It's also interesting that his experience with the slingshot, hammer, and boomerang would translate into transformational mask abilities as they become part of something he can do with his body.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hammer would be Goron? Isn't the goron the one that curls p and spins? I don't know if that's something he ever saw a goron do, but he did saw rocks do it so it would make sense.

Mhm, will think about this /bedtime

 

[Tacel]

Hammer would be Goron? Isn't the goron the one that curls p and spins? I don't know if that's something he ever saw a goron do, but he did saw rocks do it so it would make sense.

There's a Goron in Goron City that rolls around constantly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cOHCnjfFRM
Watch at 6:13.

For the Goron Ground-Pound attack, did he need to see a Goron do it? I mean, the Megaton Hammer relates to Death Mountain which relates to Gorons so I guess there's something there.

 

[Spire]

Hammer would be Goron? Isn't the goron the one that curls p and spins? I don't know if that's something he ever saw a goron do, but he did saw rocks do it so it would make sense.

Mhm, will think about this /bedtime

There were Gorons rolling all over Death Mountain trail and in Goron City. Also, the type of attack and the effect that the Megaton Hammer had is equalled by the Goron punches in MM, just as the Deku Scrub Bubble is a replacement to the Slingshot, and the Zora fins, the boomerang. Basically, all of his equipment from OoT was transcribed in MM as alternatives, if not just remakes (like the Shields, Bow, Hookshot, etc).

 

[Tacel]

Termina could be just one of Link's dreams, but it could also be another world that you get get into by going through a certain place in the Lost Woods.
Perhaps it's called the Lost Woods because it's basically a portal to another world. Termina. If you don't get lost in the Lost Wood's maze, you'll fall into Termina and never come back.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I was thinking, and my biggest problem with this is that there are no Kokiri. You could say that in his dream, the Kokiri were simply made monkeys, but that makes little sense. Why? Because the Kokiri and the Kokiri Forest are the two things that Link grew up with and is most familiar with. Why would he remember all the faces and species that he had only been with for a short time and block out the one group that he had been with since he can remember?

Maybe he did it subconsciously because the other Kokiri treated him not so nice, but Saria? I know Link doesn't enounter any of the sages' counterparts in Termina, but Saria was Link's friend since forever. Why wouldn't even a passing mention of her be in his dream? Rather odd.

Other than that, it's a sensible theory.

 

[Spire]

I was thinking, and my biggest problem with this is that there are no Kokiri. You could say that in his dream, the Kokiri were simply made monkeys, but that makes little sense. Why? Because the Kokiri and the Kokiri Forest are the two things that Link grew up with and is most familiar with. Why would he remember all the faces and species that he had only been with for a short time and block out the one group that he had been with since he can remember?

Maybe he did it subconsciously because the other Kokiri treated him not so nice, but Saria? I know Link doesn't enounter any of the sages' counterparts in Termina, but Saria was Link's friend since forever. Why wouldn't even a passing mention of her be in his dream? Rather odd.

Other than that, it's a sensible theory.

This alone is enough to turn me against the dream theory. Also, the complete lack of both Zelda and Ganon is a biggie. If Majora's Mask had transformed into a Ganon-like entity as one of its forms, then I would write off the mentioned "Goddess of Time" as Zelda, and cement the dream theory completely. Plus, during MM, Link remembers when Zelda gave him the Ocarina and taught him the Song of Time. That's a memory. You don't tap into memories in your dreams, rather, your dreams are formed by memories.

Also, no takers on the Miyamoto-Aonuma theory?

 

[Tacel]

Seriously. If I just fought a scary guy that turns into a giant pig with swords, I'd dream about it.

Also, no takers on the Miyamoto-Aonuma theory?

I definitely think that it's plausible. It makes so much sense.


Make me a hit game in a year.

Go on a long, highly perilous adventure to get my mask in three days.

 

[Kingdom Come]

Speaking of Kokiri...

I coulda sworn somewhere in OoT they said Kokiri can't leave the forest or else they turn into skull kids or something like that. I replayed OoT the other day the whole Ganon battle and in the ending I noticed some Kokiri at Lon Lon Ranch which is outside of the forest and they were partying like everybody else. Could it be that all Kokiri are Hylian children that have been left by themselves or is it some made up theory? And if it is made up, who made it up and why?

 

[Spire]

Speaking of Kokiri...

I coulda sworn somewhere in OoT they said Kokiri can't leave the forest or else they turn into skull kids or something like that. I replayed OoT the other day the whole Ganon battle and in the ending I noticed some Kokiri at Lon Lon Ranch which is outside of the forest and they were partying like everybody else. Could it be that all Kokiri are Hylian children that have been left by themselves or is it some made up theory? And if it is made up, who made it up and why?

Perhaps the Deku Tree tells them that if they leave the forest, they'll become just like the Skull Kids in the Lost Woods, which the Kokiri are bound to be familiar with, when in truth, they only become them when they become lost in the Lost Woods, not in the rest of Hyrule.

 

[Beware the Jabberwocky]

Actually, it's the other way around. Hylians cant go into the woods, because they will get lost and turn into Stalfos. I am guessing it is more like a safety mechanism so that the Hylians wont find the sacred grounds of the Deku Tree. Kokiri simply choose not to leave the forest, though them leaving isnt unheard of.

Upon seeing Link, everyone knows that he is a "fairy boy from the forest", which gives me a reason to believe that the Kokiri have the ability to leave the woods, and leave frequently. Kokiri dont easily get lost in the Lost Woods, because of the power of the Deku Tree protecting them.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Actually, it's the other way around. Hylians cant go into the woods, because they will get lost and turn into Stalfos. I am guessing it is more like a safety mechanism so that the Hylians wont find the sacred grounds of the Deku Tree. Kokiri simply choose not to leave the forest, though them leaving isnt unheard of.

Upon seeing Link, everyone knows that he is a "fairy boy from the forest", which gives me a reason to believe that the Kokiri have the ability to leave the woods, and leave frequently. Kokiri dont easily get lost in the Lost Woods, because of the power of the Deku Tree protecting them.

How does Link grow up in those woods then?

 

[Beware the Jabberwocky]

How does Link grow up in those woods then?

Good question. But the lore of the Lost Woods clearly states that No one can go into the Lost Woods. All who try become Stalfos. How did Link and his mother get there? I dont know.

I have always just assumed that the Deku Tree, the spirit of the forest, is the one who decides who can come to the grotto and who cant. As you notice, Link can easily walk back and froth from Kokiri forest to Hyrule easily, but people like Grogg get lost and turn to stalfos.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Link is the Hero of Time, there are thousands of possibilities that allow him to negate the magic surrounding the Lost Woods.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

The Deku trees and there meaning in all the games.

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In LoZ games and comics, there is a familiar race in the franchise called the deku's. There have been quite a handful of the, the well known one being the great deku tree, of kokiri forest. I like to think of this new thread as a tribute to them, but also to solve some of there mysterious secrets they hold. fOR For a great example, the deku tree of OoT knows navi, and going by ( what I see as an exelant theory) navi being the dominion rod(TP item). This must mean the deku tree knows of what lies behind the forest. But how could that be? He is constricted into the ground by his roots! Unless he is like his brother the bagu tree:
Who by the way can move on HIS roots. If you are not familiar with this deku, he is in the comics (non-canon of course). It also seems the deku tree has high conections with the figure heads of hyrule, or atleast they al somehow know each other. I can prove this because, links mother took Link to be protected by him, wich is most definately a token of her trust for this wise tree. This is one of the many discussions you can have on this thread, like for another one how did deku scrubs come to be? spores that fall from the great deku perhaps? Or how does the deku tree from windwaker know of the anciant language? could he be the oposite timeline sprout? What about the trees from OoS, and OoA? So hop to gang!
__________________

 

[Tacel]

Good point.
Could the Maku Tree (Oracle of Ages/Seasons) have any relations to Makar (Wind Waker)?
They have similar names and they are both plants (Maku Tree - Tree / Makar - Korok).

 

[Tacel]

I hate to double post, but I need to post this before I forget again (I realized this in the beginning of the week and forgot).

King Dodongo and Stallord are very similar.
I actually think that they might be the same creature.

Watch these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0ZJojKAICA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Z8-Ap1xLA
The boss battless are alike in some ways. They both circle the room. Also, the both breath fire.

In Ocarina of Time, when you defeat King Dodongo, he rolls around, falls, and sinks into the lava.
You can see what he looks like here:

They are in the same positions; sticking out of the ground.

They are both in circular rooms.

The bone structure is somewhat different, but alike in ways.

Music wise, the battle theme is the same:
Ocarina of Time: King Dodongo
Twilight Princess: Stallord

Stallord's title is Twilit Fossil. Notice that it's not Twilit Pile o' Bones. It's a fossil. Preserved in dried lava, perhaps?



Researching this, I've realized that it's been discussed a little before, but I'd like to take it further.

 

[Spire]

Some may argue, "but King Dodongo is a thick dinosaur-like creature and Stallord looks more like a horned lizard of sorts," but there's the simple fact that many overlook in the design change of the Dodongos. In OoT, the Dodongos looked more classicized, like dinosaurs, but in TP, they looked like geckos with appendages much more like a hand than a claw, as does Stallord. Stallord also resembles Volvagia to a certain extent, particularly the head, though Volvagia's remains were destroyed after its defeat, while King Dodongo's were not. Either Stallord is King Dodongo or a relative. I like to think the former.

 

[Wuss]

im fine with this, but did Ganon just move him from death mountain to the gerudo desert? I mean dodongo's home is that cavern, i dont know.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Everyone is probably an offshoot of Gorons.

Gorons are like a mixture between creationism and atheism by combining ape like creatures made from the earth.

 

[X1-12]

Goron's aren't actually made of rock though are they? I was under the impression that they are just hard skinned, however they have like a 'rock armour' on their backs which protects them when they roll?

The idea that they are merely animated rock seems to make sense until you think of the idea of breeding, no 'magically animated*' creature that i know of in any canon has ever bred. but this then gets to the issue of goron ladies...




*Note: when i say magically animated, i mean something inanimate, that has been given life, or a sort-of life from magic etc

 

[Spire]

If they were magically animated, there'd be no reason for the existence of young Gorons. They most definitely age, and are thus mortal, biological beings. The Gorons have navals and nipples, which are traits of sexually reproducing mammals. That alone should solve the case. Their rock-like skin could just be a really tough protein buildup that comes in their genetics.

Come to think of it, aside from Miltank, no Pokemon has anything that resembles nipples or navals, which explains why they all reproduce with eggs.

 

[Beware the Jabberwocky]

I think they are more of rock personified. Just because they live in rock and eat rock and have rock-like tendencies, that doesnt really mean they are made of rock. There is a personification for everything in Zelda.

 

[Phantom7]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Stallord is Volvagia. Volvagia was killed by Adult Link, so his remains still exist in the Child Timeline. Also, look how similar their skeletal structure is:

Their skulls are similarly shaped, and both feature large horns. They also both have arms with hands and fingers, unlike King Dodongo. In addition, the boss fights play the same music, and their rooms are circular-shaped with a circular pillar in the center.

 

[Tacel]

The problem is, is that Volvagia doesn't have a chest, unlike King Dodongo and Stallord. Also, Volvagia couldn't just have a long and flexible rib cage and Stallord just be missing some of the ribs, because Stallord's xiphoid process ends at he bottom of the rib cage and it doesn't look fractured.

I really don't like the idea of it having to go with the looks of it, because it's the LEGEND of Zelda. Just like other legends, some things are exaggerated and some things are told to a minimum. So really, it may just be how Link sees him/her. Ocarina of Time Link might not have not been paying attention to Volvagia's chest and might not have seen it, therefore, in Ocarina of Time, we see what Ocarina of Time Link saw; Volvagia without a chest.
I might also be full of crap.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I really don't like the idea of it having to go with the looks of it, because it's the LEGEND of Zelda. Just like other legends, some things are exaggerated and some things are told to a minimum. So really, it may just be how Link sees him/her. Ocarina of Time Link might not have not been paying attention to Volvagia's chest and might not have seen it, therefore, in Ocarina of Time, we see what Ocarina of Time Link saw; Volvagia without a chest.

I like this. It's also possible that Stallord looks like neither (or both) because he's supposed to retcon whichever one he is. But since Stallord has horns (albeit four) on his head, that seems to suggest Volvagia over Dodongo.

Of course, if I may, I'd point out that Stallord's head is not much smaller than his chest, which is the same for Volvagia (and for King Dodongo), so I don't see the chest as being such a huge problem. But we do get the problem of whether Volvagia is around in the child timeline. When Ganon brought back Volvagia, did do it from scratch, or did he use Volvagia's body? If the latter, then I am in favor of Volvagia=Stallord. If the former, we don't have much of a choice aside from King Dodongo or some unknown other.

I might also be full of crap.

Use the loo then?

 

[Tacel]

From http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Stallord :

Dark Dragon

It is also possible that Stallord is based on General Onox's Dark Dragon form from The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons. The body proportions, in terms of arm length, horn size and shape, and facial structure, are quite similar. In addition, Stallord also has no lower half rings similar to how Onox has a tail and no hind legs. However, the Dark Dragon only has four fingers, unlike Stallord, and also had wings, which Stallord lacks (althogh they may have been buried into the sand before the events in the game). Also the Dark Dragon only seems to have two teeth during its boss fight, unlike Stallord, which has ten teeth (although we may not have seen all of Dark Dragon's teeth).

It's another choice, but I like the idea of Stallord being King Dodongo or Volvagia better.
Also, if Stallord is Volvagia, then why doesn't she just fly out of the sand to begin with?

 

[X1-12]

The problem is, is that Volvagia doesn't have a chest,
.

Of course, if I may, I'd point out that Stallord's head is not much smaller than his chest,

stallord's chest is about the same size as his head?
Volvagia doesn't really have a chest but his head is about the same size as hit body - but still much smaller than stallords


volvagia - small head, small "chest"
stallord - big head, big chest
same proportions yeah?



perhaps volvagia just grew up and got bigger? perhaps when ganondorf revives him in OoT he wasn't finished growing or regenerating and still had much more growing to do? thus leading to his form in TP, Assuming the rest of his body is hidden under the sand


EDIT:

Also, if Stallord is Volvagia, then why doesn't she just fly out of the sand to begin with?

maybe she got stuck in the sand where she was sleeping or something? or maybe the bottom half of her body broke off or something.. (is it just me that thinks of volvagia as a female?)






on a side note, doesn't it seem a bit.. silly to assume one thing is another based on the room it is found in?