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MK is undoubtedly the best character in the game.on what basis are you choosing Wario to be in the top 3?
i still think Diddy is 3rd best
who's better than Diddy besides Snake? character wise and performance wise
- IC's? no
- Falco? no
- Olimar or DDD? no and no
- Wario? MAYBE, but he hasnt been performing too well based on tournament performance
adhd is having a slump AND people are learning how to use the nanerz better. and i use slump loosely because he still dominates his region (anti is a strong force there as well). still, i dont see him being anywhere below top 3.
MK, Snake, Diddy for top 3. what other characters can possibly be in the top 3 zone?
I watched that, it was very good. Your games with gnes at mlg were also entertaining.ADHD almost beat me at Showdown, very fun set and it was 3-2 last hit o.O.
O_OWith MLG rules I think diddy is 5-7th best. Pound4 rules, maybe 4-5th best. Lots has already been said, but it really comes down to the counter-pick game, and the fact that his bananas work well against him as well.
i still think Diddy is 3rd best
who's better than Diddy besides Snake? character wise and performance wise
- IC's? no
- Falco? no
- Olimar or DDD? no and no
- Wario? MAYBE, but he hasnt been performing too well based on tournament performance
adhd is having a slump AND people are learning how to use the nanerz better. and i use slump loosely because he still dominates his region (anti is a strong force there as well). still, i dont see him being anywhere below top 3.
MK, Snake, Diddy for top 3. what other characters can possibly be in the top 3 zone?
Yerp.
Metaknight - M2K, Havok, Tyrant, Tearbear, Dojo, Judge, Anti, Shadow, Seibrik, Ally (lol)
Snake - Ally, Razer (no one else comes close to these two imo)
Diddy - ADHD, Gnes, uhm... Felix/Ninjalink? Nah, those two aren't on ADHD/Gnes level.
Falco - DEHF (SK92 isn't up there anymore, Keitaro is up there)
IC's - Meh. Lain's been slacking. Meep uses Fox. Atomsk? Swordgad? =/ No one plays IC's.
Like AZ said, Diddy's ability to do well compared to the rest of the cast against MK with a combination of MK filtering most of Diddy's bad match-ups out is what puts him at Top 3. I believe ADHD and Gnes have the best performance behind Ally and Razer. And just as a character Diddy doesn't have any specific match-ups where it's HEAVILY not in his favor. Falco has Pikachu and IC's to deal with. IC's, themselves, have more tough match-ups than Diddy IMO.
I really think Diddy is a solid 3rd best in the cast.
Snake's placements are better / more consistent than most other characters except MK, though... plus, I don't think this is all *solely* based on placings. If it were, we would just copy and paste Ankoku's data and call that our tier list.Wait, Performance wise too? Snake doenst place fooo shiz LOL he only places in MA (all scrubs other than Koolaid and Bizkit/Fatal)
FL (hrnut sometimes)
TX (Razer usualy gets 5, 3,2,1)
and ME !!!! ( i dont use snake nemore, he bores me =l)
snake shouldnt be top 3 then! he doesnt place gooodish
back to diddy, he peels bananas in a second, and doesnt have anything in it, broken.
Fixed.wait wait
just to make this clear
marth is GARBAGE compared to diddy against MK
That's inui logic wtf.i never find other MKs hard, EVER. I think he is overrated in the same way that I think Marth is overrated in Melee. I've never found a marth hard in melee, and the more I learn what to do, it becomes ridiculously easier.
i think tier list is
Diddy (with pound4 rules)
MK
Snake/Falco any order
ICs
Wario
Olimar
something like that, then idk who after. Maybe like Pikachu or ... man I don't know after that
Diddy is at a disadvantage vs Snake, MK, Luigi, Peach, Wario, some argue Marth (I disagree), Falco (though I believe Dekar now believes this is 50-50) and Toon Link.
What Marc said is true-Peach and Luigi really aren't that bad.
Snake is tough but I think if diddy figures it out its close to even. ADHD hasn't lost to a non Ally snake in ages.
I would argue that Peach's tools could be superior. Diddy's dash attack is better than hers for picking up items, perhaps; but probably not better than a rapid groundfloat nair. And her aerials work very well for item handling. Her only issue is that she has no kill setups out of it...I think. I need to see if glide toss > Peach bomber works consistently.Some characters, like ROB and Meta Knight come close, but frankly diddy's dash attack, air dodge, and aerials are superior regarding handling items.
IC's vs. DiddyNo worries redhalberd, when I come to USA, I won't be high but il be placing highest.
I'm with ally on this one, Ics above diddy. Potentially 2nd tbh if played right. I don't even think they are that bad on CPs(I think they perform better vs MK on brinstar than snake does).
I agree about IC's not having too many character match-up weaknesses, but I think IC's gets completely ****ed moreso than Diddy in regards to counterpicking stages. The ability to adapt to a multitude of stage designs directly influences how well a character is placed on the tiers.I still don't see any bad matchup for ics besides MK(55-45 imo). Snake is definitely at worst 55-45(imo 50-50 especially since snake has no good CP on them), otherwise they have no harder matchups.
I think it's still focused. It's important to compare Diddy with other characters in terms of their placement amongst and/or next to each other on the tier list to validate Diddy's own placement.Let's keep discussion focused, both Snake and Ice Climbers will get their turn soon.
It's been 3 years. The "not knowing the matchup" phrase can't keep up. It just may be that most people aren't able to adapt to the match-up. Even if you know how to have banana control and understand Diddy's weak spots actually exploiting them in matches is still difficult against a Diddy that has good banana management of their own. I guess what I'm saying is that the ignorance of character match-up knowledge clearly hinders the opposer, but the presence of character match-up knowledge does not compensate for performance from both parties. When both players understand a match-up to a certain degree then loser is simply outplayed.Felix and Nerd are close friends and practice primarily with each other. As a result, Felix knows the Falco matchup better than arguably any Diddy (ask DEHF, I believe they played recently), and Nerd knows the Diddy matchup much, much better than any Falco and has excellent banana control, much like a Diddy main.
Because they can both control bananas with such proficiency, they're also arguably the best doubles team in the state.
Both players now believe Falco beats Diddy.
This is also a large part of why I believe Diddy is a character that, while good, gets away with a lot based on people not knowing the matchup. When you are both grounded, Diddy changes the constraints of the game to one in which banana control is the most important skill; and the Diddy player has hundreds of hours of practice in it.
so? diddy doesnt hve the advantage ever without bannanas dummmy you're so selfish!^ bunch of BULL****
Even if a few characters are better with bananas than Diddy is, Diddy will have bananas in their hands 5 times more often than the other characters will, because all he has to do is hit them away (even at like 20%) and then he can pull out 1-2 bananas.
The best MD/VA Diddy is Esoj followed by like, Deez. Boss does not have experience. Neither does Big Lou (best Southeast Diddy is GDX). It is even funnier that you brought up Gnes, cause if memory serves he could never (nor could Flip) manage to beat Kos Mos' Peach.M2K said:Diddy does not have a slight disadvantage against other matchups. Just because you can do well against WEST COAST Diddies does not show what the matchup is at the highest level. Even Gnes beat Boss when boss has experience in the matchup while Gnes does not. That's supposed to be a "hard counter". Diddy does not lose many matchups.[
That last part makes the first two parts pointless. Diddy doesn't win D-tilt contests with MK cause MK will almost always poke him out first. So this:Pierce said:Diddy's Dtilt deals more damage
Diddy's Dtilt has more range SLIGHTLY
MK's Dtilt is a bit faster
Is not actually true.Pierce said:In head to head encounters, Diddy's Dtilt wins, though MK's is probably a bit better overall, and he has the ftilt as well. Can a Diddy Main tell me the Frame Data on his Dtilt?
This is actually true. I'm not the only Diddy who doesn't do friendlies at tournaments vs people I know could possibly beat me/when I do play friendlies I'll try to play as fast and recklessly as possible so the opponent wins and thinks they know the MU.Dekar said:I believe it kind of has something to do with Diddy mains actively trying to keep others from adapting ...
Sorta true. Mostly not. Diddy will just adapt by glide tossing back and throwing at smarter times if he sees that his glide toss forward approaches are getting punished. It's an easy fix most Diddy's have done a hundred times. Glide tossing back means the opponent has to deal with the nana while you are at a safe distance, but still close enough that if the nana causes a trip you can follow up. It is basically unpunishable unless the opponent manages to like shield-catch-instant-throw the banana, but even then Diddy can just recatch it with ease. In other words what you are saying should happen in the future has already happened in the past, but people simply haven't noticed cause the Diddy's already know how to adapt when their forward glide tosses get punished.DMG said:What people have not exploited is Diddy's frame weaknesses concerning Bananas. It takes him a lot longer than most of you think for him to toss a banana or glide toss or be able to react after tossing a banana. Once these things are exploited, he drops down a bit.
100% agree. No character is as good with Diddy with bananas and Diddy has the advantage of know when and where to spawn them.M2K said:Even if a few characters are better with bananas than Diddy is, Diddy will have bananas in their hands 5 times more often than the other characters will, because all he has to do is hit them away (even at like 20%) and then he can pull out 1-2 bananas.
He is overrated, very true. His recovery though is better then most of the castes (who has a better recovery? MK, Pikachu, ROB, Pit, maybe Wario, maybe GW, prob 1 or 2 others but you get the point, not many are distinctively better then Diddys). Diddy's recovery is good if the Diddy is recovering smartly. It is just really hard sometimes to recognize what kind of recovery to use, especially in MUs you have little experience in (this was a big problem for me vs ROB for a long time until I got exp). More or less Diddy's refreshable side-B will allow him to save his jump in most situations and also works as an attack or a grab. Typically it is all you need to return to the edge safely, and in the worse scenario's you still have your jump, plus your Up-B charge from far away is very hard to guard against for most characters since you have to guess if Diddy is going to the edge or to the stage (and intercepting the recovery is very difficult for any character not named MK-though ROB Bair is pretty good).Chibo said:imo Diddy is a very solid character, but is incredibly overrated. His recovery can be gimped much easier than most characters, and his main component of offense, his bananas, can be caught easily by his opponent and used against him.
I agree with everything you say here except G&W. I've got quite a bit of experience with Luigi, and he has a very big issue with actually approaching. He just requires a logic change on the part of the Diddy player.Diddy DOES lose a few matchups, but different ones than people talk about.
Luigi is not a hard counter to Diddy. That is one of the biggest misconceptions about the character that I hear. The problem Luigi has against Diddy is approaching. Make HIM approach you and it's clearly in Diddy's favor. How is Luigi gonna get in? On the ground he is beat clearly. If he approaches from the air, his air movement speed is so low that it's easy to outmaneuver him repeatedly.
It's like when people said Luigi goes even with Snake. Maybe he can, if Snake isn't gay and approaches all the time.
Diddy IMO loses to MK, Wario, Marth, Falco, Peach, Snake, and G&W with a non LGL ruleset in place (Pit as well). By loses, I mean has 55:45 or worse matchup. If you want to make it just 6:4, then the list would be basically MK, Peach, and Pit/G&W without LGL.
What people have not exploited is Diddy's frame weaknesses concerning Bananas. It takes him a lot longer than most of you think for him to toss a banana or glide toss or be able to react after tossing a banana. Once these things are exploited, he drops down a bit.
i mean its a bit pointless if we're talking MK vs. Diddy strictly. not so pointless if we're talking Diddy vs. Anyone Else.That last part makes the first two parts pointless. Diddy doesn't win D-tilt contests with MK cause MK will almost always poke him out first. So this:.
LOL, I do the same thing!!! Haha..it's great.This is actually true. I'm not the only Diddy who doesn't do friendlies at tournaments vs people I know could possibly beat me/when I do play friendlies I'll try to play as fast and recklessly as possible so the opponent wins and thinks they know the MU.
I was actually going to bring this up too. Never once did I see him beat Kos Mos.The best MD/VA Diddy is Esoj followed by like, Deez. Boss does not have experience. Neither does Big Lou (best Southeast Diddy is GDX). It is even funnier that you brought up Gnes, cause if memory serves he could never (nor could Flip) manage to beat Kos Mos' Peach.
When I see that a group of people are intentionally masking their character, it tells me that there's a bunch of inherent flaws that they don't want other mains to know about.This is actually true. I'm not the only Diddy who doesn't do friendlies at tournaments vs people I know could possibly beat me/when I do play friendlies I'll try to play as fast and recklessly as possible so the opponent wins and thinks they know the MU.