Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Excel, I thought you went on to higher and better places to play Brawl.
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Whoops, I must have made a mistake somewhere.I think you need a brain transplant.
How did I know you were going to say that..Excel, I thought you went on to higher and better places to play Brawl.
Usually, you say "bye" to imply that you're leaving.
Im going to go PLAY brawl and get better.
If you would like to PLAY brawl please private message me.
Thanks bye..
No.EDIT: Yuna, you lost me with the point about Azen. If we are talking about which characters can win major tournaments, then the issue is which players can win major tournaments, and what characters these players choose. So first, let us decide who can win a major tournament. Then, we can determine that they can win these tournaments with the characters they have successfully won tounaments with.
I see you've elected to utilize the "If I pretend like I didn't just say a bunch of ludicrous things and get called out on it by Yuna, everyone will forget it ever happened" approach.How did I know you were going to say that..
You see theres this thing called a "Character Select Screen" after a match.
And then there is this thing called a controller in which you can drop.
And then there is this thing called legs which can make you walk to a computer! (While your opponent thinks of who to play as)!
No.
If we're talking about characters, who's playing them is irrelevant. We should only look at things objectively. Assuming highest level of play and roughly equal skill level, what characters can win major tournaments?
I agree with the brain transplant comment.
I ****ing lol'd, hard.Edrees' theory + Yuna + Yuna's Logic + Yuna's debating skills + Yuna's razor sharp wit, sarcasm and snark = Theory exposed as pure baloney.
Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.
Numbers are not statistical and totally came out of my arse, but the idea is there
Yes I did overestimate Peach. Because I don't have time to write the equation of a line that perfectly depicts where I think she would go, its guess and check..lol. This was all guesswork, like I said none of this is accurate, its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate.
the idea is there
I don't think Peach has anything to do with his point.its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate.
xactly peach has a lot of capacity people underestimate...Even in large tournaments, Azen uses Peach in many of his early matches.
I went to Luc boards to check this, that is false.Yes, but you see, neither Diddy Kong or Lucario are bad characters. They are both viablish. Yet not even Azen can win major tournaments as Lucario (and neither can anyone else), so Lucario isn't very viable. Diddy Kong, more viable and definitely capable of winning (better than Lucario). Neither NinjaLink or Azen are doing anything out of the ordinary with those two characters. They just happen to be taking them to their limit.
Yuna ment Lucario was viablish, meaning he can do well, but not as good as Diddy who has been winning more frequently than Lucario.lucario has done well in quite a few tourneys I thought (?) what tourneys exactly were people looking at that would draw them to the conclusion that he isn't viable?
Yuna makes some strong claims. In fact, when he makes claims about specific facts, he is often completely wrong (I'll never know why no one calls him on it). Yuna didn't believe Azen could win major tournaments with Lucario or something, to which I responded that then there would be only one player capable of winning major tournaments, M2K, with only the character MK being able to win a major tourney as a result. Thus, I now need my brain replaced, according to Yuna and a couple others.lucario has done well in quite a few tourneys I thought (?) what tourneys exactly were people looking at that would draw them to the conclusion that he isn't viable?
You still need your brain transplant. What part of it's about the characters was too hard for you to understand? We've been through this already back when AlphaZealot babbled on about how Marth was the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments based on the prowess of three players.
That won't work.
There are only a few players that can win major tournaments, pretty much just Ally, M2K, Azen, and NinjaLink. They are all super-good, in some cases on a whole different level than the players immediately below them, and could probably win with any character in the top ten, if not beyond that. Anyone below them cannot win major tournaments because of them. Thus, the highest level of play, roughly equal skill level, and, most importantly, "can win major tournaments" is pretty much isolated to these guys (and the characters they use).
This is what I plan on doing.Yuna, quit TL and focus on your Marth imo.
The key point here is that none of what you just quoted was in the OP, making the OP total baloney.I don't think Peach has anything to do with his point.
This is almost like a diagrammatic representation of a tier list that he wanted to show everyone. That was his point. He requoted himself from the peach boards with peach featured in it, but his numbers are all wrong, which he admitted rightfully on the first page of this thread.
He should change the OP, but he's not as active as this thread is moving, if evidence on the peach boards is anything to go by. Could it be that Edrees is misunderstood here, or are we all just overreacting? :?
Major tournaments. Nobody cares about minor tournaments with small concentrations of skill. Also, "placing 10 consistently" =/= can win tournamentsAnd anyone who thinks peach isn't a tourney viable character has CLEARLY never encountered a good peach... in norcal she places consistently in the top 10 for example, and we don't have a bad player pool!
Key word being early matches. Why does he not stick with her? Oh, that's right, because the further up the skill ladder his opponents are, the more likely it is Azen's Peach will lose (in direct contradiction to Edrees' theory)!Even in large tournaments, Azen uses Peach in many of his early matches.
I haven't really cared about Lucario much to keep tabs on him for the past few months. I concede this point. I'm assuming all of those major wins came out of Azen, so it's just Azen doing really well with Lucario with no other Lucario coming even close to replicating his success (still)?I went to Luc boards to check this, that is false.
Lucario has won major level tournements.
Yuna makes some strong claims. In fact, when he makes claims about specific facts, he is often completely wrong[/quote9
Strong lies from someone who claimed Captain Falcon was viable several months into Brawl's lifespan.
There was a consistently missing in there. As in "Not even Azen has been able to consistently win major tournaments as him."YYuna didn't believe Azen could win major tournaments with Lucario or something, to which I responded that then there would be only one player capable of winning major tournaments, M2K, with only the character MK being able to win a major tourney as a result.
As in, even when wielded by Azen, Lucario seldom wins major tournaments of any scale.
What part of "Nobody said that" did you not undestand?ic imo diddy is probably a bit better overall, but i don't think that means lucario isn't viable by any means.
Azen does well with Low Tiers which crappy match-ups all the time. Azen doing well with one character does not necessarily mean the character is good (at least not as good as Azen makes them look).Azen does well in tourneys with lucario bc lucario is a good character, as well as azen being a good player (which can be said of anyone who does well in major tourneys)
Azen does what he does due to superior mindgames, mindgames he uses to overcome inherent character flaws. Now, while Lucario isn't a bad character, how many people can do what Azen does with Lucario? Meanwhile, how many people can do well with the SS, SS and A Tiers, much better than as Lucario?
Tell me, how many Lucario players are able to replicate Azen's success?
When considering whether someone is viable, one must also look at how good a characte is comparison to all others. Lucario can be good. Meanwhile, the others are just that much better.
That was not the argument. The argument was that since Azen is doing really well with Lucario, Lucario must be a very good character, based solely on Azen's mastery of Lucario. Doesn't fly.azen does well with low tiers, sure. but he doesn't win with low tiers.
Really? Who has come even close to doing what Azen (and lesser Lucario players) have been able to pull off with Peach? How many major tournaments has Peach even placed Top 10 in?peach and lucario both have that potential and have been shown to have done so in tourney.
Last time I checked, a few months back, Peach had, what, three wins, none of them being major in any way.peach's success isn't just limited to minor tourneys, i suggest looking at edreeses, sky's, darkpeaches, and nikok's tourneys if you think otherwise...
I asked you for further proof of Lucario being very, very good by naming other Lucario players being able to come even close to being as successful as Azen with Lucario. Stop sidestepping that challenge.you can't just disqualify azen being good with azen bc he is azen.
Which is why I'm telling you to look at the characters, not isolated playes.the point is to see how well a character can do at their potential
And the case is all wrong, because it's claiming that bad characters do better the further up the skill ladder you go.and in the case of the graph this goes to the perfect human potential.
No, I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture instead of just one single player.so making a comparison of how well a character can do when perfected and then omitting people who play "too perfectly with them in your opinion" is hypocritical and it turns the analysis into you comparing good players with opponents who still aren't limited by your ideas of too good.
I'd like to point out some larger tournament results, all in the past 6 months:Major tournaments. Nobody cares about minor tournaments with small concentrations of skill. Also, "placing 10 consistently" =/= can win tournaments
Please remove all tournaments of this kind from the list and then I'll review it. "Major tournaments" also assume a high concentration of skill. Merely having a high number of entrants is meaningless.4th out of 47 (Palmdale biweeklies 1 Palmdale, CA) 9/20/08
Ah, but you see, my entire argument has always been about winning major tournaments, not being able to place Top 8 at a handful of tournaments when wielded by some of the best players in the United States when facing down possibly feeble competition.I really can go on. Peach does well in large scale tournaments. As a board, we even came to the conclusion it's likely she would never win one, but always high placings.
I've already stated one jillion times over that it is:Now, how about we discuss... oh, how about the original concept of the OP instead of teeny details?
I only see it saying this for Peach, which I thought was a jokeYuna said:And the case is all wrong, because it's claiming that bad characters do better the further up the skill ladder you go.
Please see my edited posts, I greyed anything I doubted - tell me if you think something's off. I didn't attend all these tournaments you see.Please remove all tournaments of this kind from the list and then I'll review it. "Major tournaments" also assume a high concentration of skill. Merely having a high number of entrants is meaningless.
Unless this biweekly magically had 16 national-level players.
I was also answering this:Ah, but you see, my entire argument has always been about winning major tournaments, not being able to place Top 8 at a handful of tournaments when wielded by some of the best players in the United States when facing down possibly feeble competition.
Really? Who has come even close to doing what Azen (and lesser Lucario players) have been able to pull off with Peach? How many major tournaments has Peach even placed Top 10 in?
I still like the general idea. ^^I've already stated one jillion times over that it is:
Pure baloney.
Who did the Peach players beat to get there? And what were their projected chances at actually winning the **** thing? That is all I care about when I talk about, you know, chances of winning major tournaments.peach does well in tournamnet... i told you to see those ppl bc they do well with her. i'm not just throwing it out there bc it was just some random guess, its your own tourney data that is limited. look at edreeses peach results for hobo 11 and axis above for example, two large tourneys, no one does that well with any character that isn't viable in tourneys that large.
I told you to omit Azen's record when? I told you to bring other Lucario players into this, that Azen is special and that we therefore should not base all of our impressions of Lucario on Azen's record.i'm not sidestepping the lucario issue at all, i just didn't think you could omit azen's records with lucario bc he was "too good."
Bring in some proof, please.i'm pretty sure kitamerby, samuelson, kurohito do well with lucario as well.
But not the isolated results of one and oneb player only.you say not to look at isolated players but anytime you look at the potential of a character you have to look at the isolated results of certain players, you can't avoid that.
13th out of 300 is a very good place to be in, but it's not 1st.stuff
What part of "Size is not everything" was too hard for you to understand?peach has the potential to win major tourneys! those major tourneys show this, yea, so what if edreese got 13th out of over 300? that's amazing! It basically rounds to 1/50! no one gets that high if their character isn't tourney viable! if he won two three more games he would have won the tourney, its obvious she has the potential from these results. Even if she has a few disadvantages matches ahead of her at that point no one there is going to be an automatic loss for her, so if played right peach could win. if she got 2nd of 303 she would still be tourney viable even if she didn't win, she lost in the finals, sure, but that doesn't mean she didn't have the capacity to win. stop asking me to pull out tourney results, and go look for them for yourself. ( in lucario boards maybe, or you can go to aib too and look at each characters tourney records as well.)