Counterpicking Made Easy

[The_Altrox]

When I use Bowser, I like Castle siege. The terrain is uneven for my advantage in part one. The statues on part two make for nice projectile blockades.

 

[XxBlackxX]

falco's worst stages are norfair (listed) , Luigi's mansion, and maybe Rainbow Cruise.

 

[M.J.B]

this will help me a lot, great thread idea

 

[brinboy789]

ganon is good at pirate ship and norfair? waaaaat?

oh and i find it ironic that fox's worst stage is lylat cruise XP

 

[deepseadiva]

ganon is good at pirate ship and norfair? waaaaat?

They like the water for spiking on the Ship and the multiple ledges for recovering on the 'fair.

 

[DMG]

Wario really has no bad stages, most of his bad stages are very character specific. His really good stages however work well against most of the cast. FD is pretty bad for him, usually because it's a flat stage where nothing helps him avoid infinites, and because it promotes camping to an extent.

Best: RC, Japes, Frigate.

 

[deepseadiva]

Phew! Okay, just finished posting on a ton of character boards. Once some responses start coming in, the list will be pretty closed to finished.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Besides BF, FD, and SV, Pit is great on Norfair.

-Great room to shoot and loop arrows
-Small platforms weaken the effectiveness of Chaingrabbers like Dedede and Falco
-If the lava is high enough, if Pit is spiked, he'll be launched back up by the lava. Pit does have a D-tilt spike that is affected by this.
-Large amount of room to Glide, as well as go Under the stage if the lava isnt high enough
-His camping capabilities are great here
-Pit can go under Platform after platform delivering U-air after U-air, pressuring the opponents above him. When using the "Up-B near the ledge to grab the ledge quieker" thing, it boosts the speed effectiveness for Pit's camping and stall game.
-Pit's Mirror Shield can block the lava falls from both sides of the screen and the blasts from the background
-Pit can simply fly over the lava wave to avoid damage, or use that Up-B thing by the ledge to gain invicibility frames to avoid it, rather than getting inside the capsule
-A counterpick against Falco
-A counterpick against Snake
-A possible counterpick against Diddy and Dedede

I say Norfair is the best for Pit.

 

[deepseadiva]

Alrighty, done with a MASSIVE update.

Though I could use some more discussion on Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Sheik, Wolf, and Zamus.

Otherwise. Yay for progress!

 

[Tezmata]

Add Yoshi's Island to ZSS and replace PS1 with Norfair if it's considered counterpick in this thread.

Rainbow Cruise and Jungle Japes are two of her worst. Can't think of a good third.

 

[Nicole]

this has probably been discussed already, but could someone enlighten me as to the reasons i should counterpick corneria when i play sonic? the level is pretty small, not particularly good for spindashing/approaching because of the odd shape, the offstage area is not very large (hard to gimp), the ceiling is low, which doesn't really help sonic because he cannot easily kill upwards (besides u-throw to uair, which is predictable if your opponent has ever played a decent sonic before), and the hazards (planes) shooting rarely are of help. i want to hear why it's good for sonic though, because it might just be me hating that level.

 

[MysticKenji]

You can put down Norfair for all of PT's pokemon as a best stage.

 

[The Milk Monster]

According to Legan, Smashville is one of Link's better stages.

 

[deepseadiva]

this has probably been discussed already, but could someone enlighten me as to the reasons i should counterpick corneria when i play sonic?

I got that info direct from the Sonic boards. If I recall correctly, it was due to Sonic's easier time KOing, seeing as KOing is one of his bigger problems overall.

You can put down Norfair for all of PT's pokemon as a best stage.

If it's good for all three... wouldn't it be good for PT himself? Should I replace Corneria, Castle Siege, or Halberd with it?

 

[da K.I.D.]

this has probably been discussed already, but could someone enlighten me as to the reasons i should counterpick corneria when i play sonic? the level is pretty small, not particularly good for spindashing/approaching because of the odd shape, the offstage area is not very large (hard to gimp), the ceiling is low, which doesn't really help sonic because he cannot easily kill upwards (besides u-throw to uair, which is predictable if your opponent has ever played a decent sonic before), and the hazards (planes) shooting rarely are of help. i want to hear why it's good for sonic though, because it might just be me hating that level.

1. its actually great for spindashing on the left side, because you can cancel the SD into a up tilt that slides rediculously far.
2. gimping is hard to do in thist game to begin with, any sonic main will tell you that they will always choose to kill flat out with a back throw as opposed to trying to gimp ppl all the time.
3. up smash, up tilt and up throw all can be used as legit kill moves on corneria, they kill at moderate-high damage, ESPECIALLY at the top of the fin.
4. the planes dont kill anymore, and sometimes i think spicdashes go right through the lasers, where as they can completely shut down, or otherwise discordinate the opponent.
5. it is just you hating the level

the slight slopes can mess up CGs adn some peoples auto cancels and you can set up for kill moves off the fin.

being able to kill with throws with sonic is seriously a godsend.
its a great stage for him

btw, never EVER use it as a counter pick against anyone that has a fingay or wall gay
D3 will infinite you
ike will spam aether on the fin AND infinite you on the wall
MK will spam shuttle loop on the fin
pit may be able to inifinte you on teh wall with f-throw (this one im unsure about)
Fox can infinite you with shine
and so on...

 

[MysticKenji]

If it's good for all three... wouldn't it be good for PT himself? Should I replace Corneria, Castle Siege, or Halberd with it?

I'd put it over Halberd tbh

and i'm pretty sure pit's only infinites involve locks

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'd put it over Halberd tbh

and i'm pretty sure pit's only infinites involve locks

if this in reference to me, ill give you my line of reasoning...

ike can CG ppl with his forward throw
that CG turns into an infinite when a wall is present...
pit can CG with his forward throw
that CG SHOULD turn into an infinite when a wall is present


thats the hypothesis at least...

 

[Nicole]

btw, never EVER use it as a counter pick against anyone that has a fingay or wall gay
D3 will infinite you
ike will spam aether on the fin AND infinite you on the wall
MK will spam shuttle loop on the fin
pit may be able to inifinte you on teh wall with f-throw (this one im unsure about)
Fox can infinite you with shine
and so on...

That's why I don't like playing on it...all of these guys, plus Gaymenwatch (I think he can wall gay infinite me with d-tilt for awhile) and Olimar, who are quite good on it too. You do make a good point with killing with throws, I completely forgot about it! And yes, gimping is usually not my choice for killing, kind of depends on which character I'm playing against. Seems like I should give this stage another chance though...

[also, daKID, I don't like smiling in photos because my fake "photo" smile looks, well, fake. be assured that my real one is nice ]

 

[da K.I.D.]

forgot about GaW ...

but yea, when you are counter picking (especially with sonic) you have to be very aware of your opponents capabilities which is what makes the situation hard

 

[marthmaster59]

give me a worst for kirby

 

[deepseadiva]

give me a worst for kirby

Kirby mains were all "Oh dear me. My character has no bad stages."

I'll ask again.

UPDATED with Luigi's Mansion and Pirate Ship

 

[Wallehh]

Lol, my Ganondorf is awesome at Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Affinity]

Bumpity Bump

 

[Foursaken]

Castle Siege definitely needs to be added as one of DeDeDe's best stages. Walk off edges during transformations and on the second level make this one of his strongest counter picks.

 

[illinialex24]

Jigglypuff, put Final on the list. For a few characters its better than Smashville.

 

[K 2]

How is pikachu good on Corneria?

 

[deepseadiva]

Besides some minor tweaking here and there, I think this list is finally finishing up.

Though I would like some more input on:
Captain Falcon
Marth
Pokemon Trainer and his Pokemon
Sheik
and Wolf

Castle Siege definitely needs to be added as one of DeDeDe's best stages. Walk off edges during transformations and on the second level make this one of his strongest counter picks.

There's only one walk off level, unless you're counting the transitions, but those are kinda short.

Would you consider it a better stage for Dedede over Delfino or PS1? I think they have more.

Jigglypuff, put Final on the list. For a few characters its better than Smashville.

Same question, would you place FD above Smashville, or even Frigate Orpheon?

How is pikachu good on Corneria?

IIRC, the Pikachu boards said they liked it for KOing easier, and how their jolts slink across the odd terrain.

 

[onionchowder]

now with extra-inch DI (escaping marth's CG), Norfair isn't anythng special for Ness anymore. I'd rank Brinstar above it, but i'm a little Brinstar-happy.

 

[Sosuke]

Toon Links good on Norfair.

Bad at Castle Siege.

 

[GwJ]

You should probably add Brinstar to ROB's worst stages.

 

[Glick]

Well, kirby has bad stages, but kirby is decently well rounded so like MK he doesn't really have any TERRIBLE stages.

I CP luigis mansion sometimes as kirby. downthrow to jab lock. up throw kills WAY early off the top of the house. The ledge is great for edge guarding. And he dies not as early thanks to the ceiling.

 

[JCaesar]

I just found this thread, good stuff. But...

Who told you Lylat Cruise is one of ROB's best stages? Certainly not the ROB boards. You should replace that with Jungle Japes, which is ROB's CP of choice vs Snake and DDD and some other less important characters.

Also, Jumpman is right, Brinstar is one of ROB's worst, and since Green Greens and Distant Planet are rarely legal in tourney I think you should replace one of those.

But it's your thread, it's up to you. I'm just letting you know what the ROB boards think.

 

[Deoxys]

Bumpity Bump

OMG U R INVISABUL!!!1

Also, Jumpman is right, Brinstar is one of ROB's worst, and since Green Greens and Distant Planet are rarely legal in tourney I think you should replace one of those.

Just because it's sometimes banned by ignorant TOs (ZOMG if you're ******** and approach DDD from the left while on the slope you can get KO'd for it! So unfair! ) doesn't mean it should be put off the list if it's a better CP than a more unanimously accepted stage.

Kirby mains were all "Oh dear me. My character has no bad stages."

I'll ask again.

UPDATED with Luigi's Mansion and Pirate Ship

I don't play Kirby at all, since I play MK virtually exclusively, but I'd bet $100 that Kirby is bad on Yoshi's Island (Melee), just like MK.

 

[Diddyknight]

Luigis mansion for Diddy for best

 

[JCaesar]

Just because it's sometimes banned by ignorant TOs (ZOMG if you're ******** and approach DDD from the left while on the slope you can get KO'd for it! So unfair! ) doesn't mean it should be put off the list if it's a better CP than a more unanimously accepted stage.

I guess MD/VA and PA/NJ/NY are full of ignorant TOs then.

 

[Deoxys]

I guess MD/VA and PA/NJ/NY are full of ignorant TOs then.

Yep. Good guess. Just because those areas are excellent at smash doesn't mean their TOs make good decisions on stage legality. Maybe the TOs aren't ignorant and it's just that they're fed up with ignorant players johning to them when they lose.

 

[deepseadiva]

I just found this thread, good stuff. But...

Who told you Lylat Cruise is one of ROB's best stages? Certainly not the ROB boards. You should replace that with Jungle Japes, which is ROB's CP of choice vs Snake and DDD and some other less important characters.

It was Overswarm's guide actually.

And, not that I have intense ROB knowledge, but would JJ be terrible for it?
The river kinda removes his huge recovery advantage, and the high ceiling would affect his KO ability even more so, no? I could see how it would work in certain matchups - but overall, and generally against the cast, would CPing JJ work?

But it's your thread, it's up to you. I'm just letting you know what the ROB boards think.

No problem changing if the entire board agrees. I'm aim for accuracy, especially when people add reasons to their corrections. I appreciate it.

Luigis mansion for Diddy for best

*COUGH COUGH*

 

[JCaesar]

It was Overswarm's guide actually.

And, not that I have intense ROB knowledge, but would JJ be terrible for it?
The river kinda removes his huge recovery advantage, and the high ceiling would affect his KO ability even more so, no? I could see how it would work in certain matchups - but overall, and generally against the cast, would CPing JJ work?



No problem changing if the entire board agrees. I'm aim for accuracy, especially when people add reasons to their corrections. I appreciate it.

OS says that Lylat is ROB's best starter, which may be true, but ROB really takes advantages of some CPs better than that.

Jungles Japes, if you average it out vs all the characters, is pretty good for ROB, but the real reason that it is one of his best CPs is because it is arguably the best stage for him to use against Snake and DDD, two of the most common and important matchups. It's also his best CP for some other characters. It's just so easy to camp there, and some characters have no feasible way of approaching ROB on the side platforms. ROB gets his kills here with bthrow->off-the-stage harassment->bair or sometimes an fsmash OoS. Oh and did I mention ROB lives even longer than forever here? Even against powerhouse characters, 200+ is not uncommon.

 

[DBZ0wnz]

Lucas best is the ones you picked as 'Worst'

Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island ~RoX!

 

[platomaker]

dude, Ness and Lucas suck at brinstar. The stage itself has swallowed up and kill me at zero percent. The sky itself had opened up and God said "alph-alpha I hate you" as he sent 5 thousand volts into my skull.

Actually Lucas and Ness are really good at castle siege. Just ask Seibrik.