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DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

7Claus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
79
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
TC, don't ever approach snake from the Air. That's just dumb. Air camping doesn't work against snake, we are better just staying grounded.
I agree. Just by holding a grenade Snake kills several of our options in the air.

Snake players do it a LOT. I don't know why other characters don't do it back to them, lol.
It's much better for Snake because when they approach with the grenade on his hand he'll drop it if he shields or get attacked, so if you try to grab him the grenade will just explode before you throw him or it'll stay there probably messing up your follow up on the throw.

When you try to do that against Snake you're just limiting your options near him while he can just grab you and throw, and you'll have to worry about the explosion after being thrown.
 

Coney

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
4,160
Location
Rapture Farms
re-posting something i said in the tier list thread

progressing a character isn't just to apply incremental, technical changes. it's taking preconceived notions of the character and turning them on their ear to create a whole new understanding of the character

ultra-super-defensive patient ddd isn't going anywhere. that's what people have been doing for years, that's the style 9B perfected and eventually dropped. unless someone comes along and can do it better than absolutely anyone ever, people have already adapted and prepared for that. for someone to succeed with that kind of style would take far more patience and ability than anyone before them.
the only reason i succeed isn't because i'm all that good, it's because i attempt to pressure and zone into punishes rather than just taking them when they're offered. this makes me bad in some matchups but far better in others, and it's pretty unfamiliar to most players.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
TC, don't ever approach snake from the Air. That's just dumb. Air camping doesn't work against snake, we are better just staying grounded.
I'm sorry, but that's not quite right. I shouldn't have air camped as much when it stopped working but to say NEVER air camp.....play good Snakes first and then say that lol

tc plays as if grenades do 1000 damage and snake chaingrabs us
I have developed this huge fear of Snake recently <_< Plus SK knows exactly how to make me play scared....he's my best doubles partner lol

@CJ: I agree though. Its just not a comfortable style for me yet but I have to work on it. My style isnt going to get me anywhere vs someone on SK's level. I just sort of developed it after playing NOTHING but MKs for so long. That's a huge part of how my D3's playstyle came to be...but obviously that doesnt work for every MU. I gotta adapt better.

Also Coney: Thanks for posting that.

Hmm it seems I need to come to a realization on my playstyle. I don't know if taking 9B's playstyle is going to work for me at this level of play anymore...so I've gotta hit the books. Pressure is probably my weakest asset. Like I know how to **** Snake off stage for example but I don't always get in the position to keep him there. Like the Forward Air trap I had on SK was groovy but I failed in other opportunities.


I'm gonna like...go on a Coney watching marathon after work or something. I have a large tournament in another state this weekend that I want to prepare for. Gonna take a slight break from playing and focus on analyzing and asking the right questions. This loss made it apparent, I have some holes to patch before I become a Blastoise.
 

Doc King

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
1,790
Congrats on finding obscure techniques and stuff, and they might be helpful. But things like this, your infinite on Yoshi, etc shouldn't be tried to incorporate for 97% of DDDs. Watching most DDD vids there are still a lot of things with your fundamentals you need to get better at. I'm not saying that anyone is bad at their fundamentals, but you're not perfect at them. Brawl isn't a "tech skill heavy" game in the sense that Melee was. However, it does require you to have essentially perfect tech skill. It's not difficult to exactly, however needing to perform really simple aspects of your game with, literally, 100% success ratio is one of the most important things in the game to be able to do. Buffered pivot grab infinite on Snake is awesome. However, trying to do anything like that, even an easier version (dash dance pivot grab oh which ever characters, etc) should be so far in the back of most players minds still. Until you can get to the point where you can the really basic parts of your game for hours on end without messing up (E.g. Go CG Marth back and forth YI:B an hour straight without messing up once), trying to force yourself to learn advanced things won't help you. You can't seize the opportunity to do something you spent 4 hours practicing if it never occurs because your opponent is running circles around you and your fundamentals can't keep up. You can't pick up melee and start wavedashing and expect your game to improve immediately. You have to know how to wavedash and how it affects
your gave in a way to aid your fundamentals.

*Note- not directed at Doc King or anyone else in particular. Just something that is true for everyone other than like... Ally/M2K/9B


I agree with Coney on this point. 9B took passive DDD to his absolute limits. Unless you honestly think you're smarter than and more patient than 9B, you should take the Coney approach to DDD. Pressure and reads. Patience has its place during a game, this is true- especially for characters like DDD- however you need to start playing like Coney and being more aggressive. That's not to say go full out Europe and just bumrush everyone, but smart aggression and pressure is one of the most important things EVERYONE needs to learn and get better. 9B/@lly/M2K/TC/Me/Neo/DEHF EVERYONE needs to work on their pressure games. I'd venture even to say that people like Daigo, Combofiend, and Justin Wong need to work on it to. The best players have the best pressure games, but even theirs isn't perfect.
In fact, here's a video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSspTn3yeXY
This is the number 1 thing I'm working on right now other than just constantly improving my fundamentals.



Keep a count on the nades timer. 2.5ish seconds out or less? Stripping posts no threat. After that, I'd advice against it. However, something else that is just as important; unless the nade is almost perfectly cooked, instant throwing nades is SUPER safe. Unless Snake is REALLY far away from you, you can instant throw the nade back at Snake and Snake can't strip it quickly enough.


Snake players do it a LOT. I don't know why other characters don't do it back to them, lol.

*Disclaimer, I didn't actually watch the match yet. Just posting responses.*
/goes to watch
It is true that it's not that important to make something game breaking. It's just a cool AT thing. I do practice outside of stuff like this like different playstyles like I've been planking falco lately and it looks like a great option D3 has on Falco.
 

shaSLAM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
AL
doc makes me go wario and other bad MU's on his D3 becasue he "likes playing those MU's"

lool wtff

and he makes me go characters that he wants to practice his advanced techs on instead of who i want to go when we play :D

you should listen to what these ppl are telling you, doc, but idk if you get it though lmao whatever floats your boat man.
 

AtotheZ

Smash Lord
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1,178
Location
Woodhaven, MI
I'm sorry, but that's not quite right. I shouldn't have air camped as much when it stopped working but to say NEVER air camp.....play good Snakes first and then say that lol
.
Go watch your vid and count how many punishes you had on one hand from falling from the air besides a hit with a waddle dee. Bonus points if you get to your second hand. Furthermore, you essentially would have lost due to air camping in the first match if it wasn't for the lucky gordo and suicide plays on sk's part. You played that match like you are wario, but guess what, you were using dedede. A good snake will stop a lot of your air approaches with a grab or just a simple nade+roll. It is of course fine to mix it up with aerial approach, but the main reason you lost is because you focused on aerial approach, and frankly that's a terrible idea vs. snake.

I think you should know more than anyone that we beat snake off stage. So why is it you barely even put in the effort to put him offstage? If you waste your time air camping then you might as well use someone who can do it better like wario or metaknight.

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ItWn4meBXw

Now, I know not everyone can make reads as well as CO18, and sure, he gained some damage while on the ground, but I believe this video shows just how easy it is to pressure snake into a grab or force while on the ground as opposed to the air.
 

shaSLAM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
AL
when snake pulls out a nade it is an opportunity to grab. which is alot. not like... every time... but it is an oppurtuniy alot of the time.
just start pressuring before he throws the nade.

also the ground game vs snake is in our favor, our grab stops his dacus, we have an amazing ftilt, enough mobility to get around his nades and a roll thats gets us away from his dangerous hitboxes. plus we have the advantage of a long grab range and a cg to get him off stage. the pressure game is realllly good against snake if we stick to the ground as that is what he is best at, except we do it better than him in this MU.

plus that **** is SOOOOOO easy. its just like shiled, shield, jump away from nade, approach with shield, shield, roll, shield, grab, off stage time.

if youre going to air approach id suggest doing more well spaced dairs.


also if our opponent is recovering low, our dair stage spikes, ive been doing this alot lately. do you guys do this alot? ive actually got quite the amount of kills with it.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
I know full well, I focused too much on aerial play in the match. I haven't really been in practice recently, and I keep playing everything overly passive. I mean defensive works but at my level play now, the people around my level are going to stop it. Yep, I know I didn't put Snake off stage enough. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know upon viewing this set. I'm not proud of this set of all or the way I played. I just keep playing certain MUs wrong that I KNOW that know. I'm actually kind of frustrated now thinking about this.

If I sound kind of annoyed, its because I am from something else ...semi related. But yeah I know what I have to work on. Its just difficult when I don't play anyone. I never have the time to play people right now. And its really frustrating because I see improvement but not at the rate I want. I'm trying my hardest to stay optimistic though.
 

shaSLAM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
AL
yeah idk when you post something TC, it just gives other people a chance to talk and say what they know.
its more like its not a thing directed directly towards you type of deal its just like "oh hey this subject got mentioned so ima say stuff" thing.
i mean, i know you know whats up with **** i just put in my two cents like everyone likes doing lol
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
My post wasnt actually directed at you Shaslam lol But I apologize if I sounded like a dbag.

Truth is, my life at home has been REALLY stressful, filled with domestic violence, arguments etc etc and so I've been on edge and really stressed out the past few weeks. :(

I appreciate the advice I got though I really do. I don't want to come across as some **** that thinks he knows everything. I definitely don't.
 

∫unk

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
4,952
Location
more than one place
Hey TC this is going to come as a surprise, but I think you played really passive :/ Through careful examination of your 20minute boreset, I've reached a diagnosis on how you can play better.

First, you need to work on your understage game. If you do perfect u-air planking the DDD Snake matchup is definitely 80:20 and from the ledge you can punish any recovery option Snake does as well. Eventually Snake gets frustrated and will run off the stage just wait. PATIENCE!

Second, you forgot to land with swallow. I don't know why DDDs don't use this more because it's amazing. Swallow is an air grab that reaches farther and lasts longer. Spam it because Snakes like to shield as you land so use this a lot!

Third, you need to be WAY more careful around grenades. What you did was reckless and can kill you. For example, at :32, there were grenades all around and you approached!!! Your opponent was new to the game so he only got 1 hit of the jab on you but vs a better player you could have easily died right there.

Overall, disappointing from a backroom member to say the least. I do like that you're not using spotdodge... I think spotdodge is terrible imo you can avoid anything spotdodge can with better spacing and perfect shielding.

@ the noob that said you don't want to be in the air... hello DDD has the fastest fall in the game!!! You can bait the snake to jump up and aerial you and then you airdodge u-tilt easy KOs.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
The reason I don't land will Swallow is because I over use it at times. Like there were times he was waiting for me to try to B-Reverse Swallow like I tend to do. The very first time we played in tournament in Game 1 he killed me on livestream by baiting my Swallow, throwing a Grenade at me and then F-Smashing me and winning the match.

I've had nightmares about it ever since lol. Like this player in particular knows ALL of my habits because we're good friends...then add on that he's a better player than I am and it intimidates me. <_<

And yeah I know what you mean...its just that I don't want to put pressure on myself. I already do that too much. Getting better at it though. Trying REALLY hard to not take my losses so seriously anymore.

And I try not to overuse spotdodge because honestly Im with you that spacing + powershielding are better. But it wouldnt hurt to find ways to abuse it though as a mixup. Man.....I have so much work to do....


 

Zekeishere

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
946
Location
San Diego, CA
0:23 was just a hesitation, but you have to either act or wait out the nade. You hesitated and took damage. for it. You can't be afraid of grenades like that.

:30 you keep giving him space. that's okay Vs MK but Snake likes the space.

:46 Maaaan you could have easily CGed him and evaded the nade.

1:00 was obv a Grab, just work on reacting faster to that, or you could have just waited. That was probably a choke though

1:03 was another CG over the nade.

1:34. Why are afraid of him when he's throwing a a grenade lol, you gave him space :(. That was F tilt! Know your moves and their spacing. (F tilt at Max range explodes the grenade but doesn't touch you)

1:47 I know your mindset was to time him out, but if you just landed right behind him what could he have done to you? Spot dodge or rol at bestl? lol.

1:52 that waddle D was F tilt imo.

3:28 :( D throw to d throw to D tilt!

I'm kinda bored now. But basically. second game you kept giving him so much space. Like you would have him pressured but then you'd just run back and he's "oh, tight" and goes back to nade camping. =/

In other news, I'm MM Sparta Kick for like $30. lol

EDIT
Oh yeah and you still have this insta-loss complex about him where since he's your partner he knows you in and out. Maaaaan **** that(I have a similar situation with Terry and Havok, but they are also better players than me) You gotta just be like w/e then ima do something this ***** DOESN'T expect. lol You got this.

EDIT 2
You really do have get more grabs and how do you do that? You have to approach him. Your grab beats his nade holding but his spot dodge beats your grab. And his grab is good too while holding a nade. But your RAR Bair ***** his grab attempt and is safe against his shield.

You also have to get down your follow ups after CGs. F tilt interrupts and takes his offstage jump, Jab interrupts his second jump to get back on stage and he can't DI through it. his only option is cypher and that's easy to grab. D tilt Adds Damage but otherwise is meh. Waiting there makes it easy to regrab when he jumps back on stage. You can also take the edge if you think he's going to jump low and go for the edge. Or Full hop Fair/Bair right away if you foresee him jump cyphering right away. On Smashvilles platform you can D throw D smash, etc.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
1. SK definitely picked the right sandwich, that CC burger is probably the best thing on their menu right now.

2. Mikey WOULD be the fruitiest thing on the menu lol.

3. How many people had to quit for Roller to pull top 5 in the state...

4. Who in the hell is zinoto?
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
1. SK definitely picked the right sandwich, that CC burger is probably the best thing on their menu right now.

2. Mikey WOULD be the fruitiest thing on the menu lol.

3. How many people had to quit for Roller to pull top 5 in the state...

4. Who in the hell is zinoto?
3. Look at the MUs behind and ahead of him. You'll notice a pattern.

4. Zinoto is amazing.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
1. SK definitely picked the right sandwich, that CC burger is probably the best thing on their menu right now.

2. Mikey WOULD be the fruitiest thing on the menu lol.

3. How many people had to quit for Roller to pull top 5 in the state...

4. Who in the hell is zinoto?
1. No comment..lol

2. SK's is ironic because he HATES cheese with a passion lol.

3. ICs **** this state. Hence the reason there's a :warioc: by my name.

4. He's ****ing good. Beat Lain and Anther this weekend. Gave Shugo a scare as well.


Oh switch my responses for 1 and 2.
 

shaSLAM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
AL
dude i use to play zinoto on wifi all the time.
he sucked a couple of months ago lol
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
I played Wi-Fi last night, and all those buffered f-smashes that were supposed to be buffered fairs/bairs were also amazing.

I should get back to frame data this week.
 

allshort17

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
574
Location
Gwinnett county, GA
Oh, those are great actually. And most of the time they actually hit. O.o

I believe hit you want to know all the mindgames you can get off of Fsmash, go online and spam fitlt.
 

Coney

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
4,160
Location
Rapture Farms
all i see from that video is that approaching from the air is a bad idea

takeover and i are really good friends and he knows me real well, he was actually outplaying me that set but i got reeeally lucky with that first grab

i play the matchup terribly, same with wario, my aerial playstyle just isn't suited for them :/
 
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