Dedede Tactical Strategy 20 - IC's Desynchs

[Vayseth]

For some reason I never noticed the bair topic.

With G+W's bair all of the info is correct except for the part about when to grab.

I figured out that the 5th hit ALWAYS comes out late. It comes out just before he hits the ground or the 5th hit might not even come out unless he touches the ground. The point is, the appropriate time to grab is in between the 4th and 5th hit.

Also, DDD's bair beats out all of G+W's aerial options except for dair which HURTS when it trades. However, if you use bair before he can space a bair or a fair you'll beat him out without taking damage. G+W's bair takes a LOT of spacing to use properly, so if you're always in his face with bairs of your own, he won't know what to do.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Don't chase him on the ground and you can't be pivot grabbed <.< And I think ftilt outranges it.

Forward tilt does outrange it as long as you do it at the right space.
It's hard to "chase Olimar in the air" because our incoming attacks while coming down will have lag when we reach the ground, then he can grab anyway.
Aircamping with a wise inhale will work almost every time. Pivot grab won't prevail.

Sometimes F tilt and grab (pivot grab too I believe) can "clash" (Don't if this is the right term?), I mean F tilt connects, and breaks Olimar's grab. Olimar gets F tilted, and ddd gets 3%

There's no such thing...

In general, we just have to see when the pivot grab is coming when we are approaching.

 

[Jupz]

Thanks Vayseth, I'll update it now

Does a blue pikmin Pivot grab outrange Ftilt? Also, is spotdodging a wise option because he can just grab again straight after? How do you approach him through the pivot grab?

Nice idea about aircamping to inhale Beef, although we have to predict that hes not going to Fsmash us.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Thank you...
And yes like I said in the matchup thread, we should use spotdodge, inhale and up throw more against Olimar. So to answer your question, spotdodge approaching works great here and it's still wise because Olimar will still get the lag from the Pikmin returning to him which leaves us able to grab him during those milliseconds. Don't do it every time you approach though, more like every other time.

 

[Jupz]

Ah ok, thanks, what are some ways to approach him without getting pivot grabbed? Does your Dair outrange his Usmash?

FFalling with a bair might be risky as he can shield it and punish with a pivot grab or just retreat and pivot grab.

 

[basilioyugi]

just stay in the air facing oposite to him , he cant grab u in the air(duh) and if he jumps u are in position to bair that out prioritize his air game but his UAIR, in case of Uair do ur Bair it will outrange it and when the time to go back to the floor comes try to do it away from him or to inhale him in his face (be careful with his smashes when inhaling)

 

[Tekk]

I don't think spotdodging is really good idea against olimar, every times I try to spotdodge a grab, the grab pass through my dodge.
I think aircamp and swallow are actually good to don't get pivot-grabbed, but it quickly get predictable and I don't see any other good strategies to counter oli's pivot grab.

 

[Jupz]

Ok, I'll write this summary up tonight,

FALCO LASERS DISCUSSION

sorry for my absence, i was in new zealand on holiday :D

 

[Tekk]

As it's said in the matchups thread, mixing air dodging/spotdodging while approaching is the best thing to do imo.
You also can throw a random waddle on the stage to counter the lowest lasers.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah they will block silent lasers. The lasers really hurt Dedede because he has the slowest aerial movement and 3rd slowest run speed.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Whenever he's short-hopping two lasers to camp us, I've always just not cared about the damage and just keep walking through the bottom laser...The top laser is too high to hit us, so I just keep walking, taking the hits and power shield from time to time. When my walk has ended and I'm near him, I just watch and wait for him to grab approach or smash boost, then I spotdodgegrab. So it's worth it to take 8-10% to get over there as long as you know what you're doing . A lucky Gordo will go through them too.

 

[Tekk]

Yeah, those PEW PEW are useless Falco's are such childs playing with a water gun -.-
Dedede is invincible anyways.

 

[Jupz]

What about when he just IAP's away and it starts all over again?

Also, whats the best way to approach once your through the lasers? I don't really like Beefs idea as Falco is my secondary and I verse him a fair bit, people think you are going to grab when you get close. Most of the time they will jab which is faster then your moves, and either cancel it into a grab or keep doing it, depending on if you shielded or spotdodged.

 

[Jupz]

BUMP. I'm going to make an effort to keep this thread going now

 

[dawall250]

personally i powershield the lasers a lot, i really needa put more sh airdodges and spotdodges into approaching though. if you notice that he iap's a lot... well at that point i try to bait the iap and then punish. if he's really predictable, well go for an utilt or a bair, though i usually find i can't pull them out fast enough. what has worked for me is that i see about where i am in relation to them when they iap, then i get in that area, hopefully bait the iap, and at that point back out quick, ps the iap and grab them in lag (or ftilt if too far away still). for that matter, would a fhdair work against an iap if you predict it? anyone ever try that? or too slow?

once past the lasers and they don't iap? well, just play a regular ddd at that point, try to bait them into getting shieldgrabbed? if you're getting jabbed canceled to grab... i'm pretty sure its not guaranteed so you can do stuff about it. shield the jab then spotdodge the grab? sh inhale? rar bair? i'm not exactly sure what you're looking for here.

 

[Jupz]

When you get past the lasers sometimes its wise to actually roll away again because then you can punish whatever they do with Ftilt. Mix it up, don't always go for the grab.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Yea, we need to keep this thread going. This can help us with alot of *****y moves.

 

[Jupz]

Woops I forgot to update the title, I'll do it now. Anyone got more stuff to add?

 

[Teran]

So apparently you're discussing how to deal with lasers.
Powershield them, that's your failsafe option.

Waddle Dee and whatever the hell D3 pulls out his void of gayness to throw can help absorb lasers too, they can be more of a nuisance than you might give them credit for.

Use your minions as meatshields! But really, a mixture of powershielding and side B spam is pretty effective in my experience against D3s.

 

[Jupz]

Thanks for the input, Teran

Waddle dees are definately a good idea as they block the lowest lasers. they won't block all of them but hopefully at least reduce the masses of lasers flying at you.

 

[o-Serin-o]

If your a ground based D3, have waddles as your minions. If your air based, use Dair to get through the phantasm if its a really campy Falco.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I find that at a high level of play Falcos generally don't IAP all that much so it's not that predictable when he does it. I think sheilding it then bair oos to punish is a good way to go.

Lasers you should just powershield, SHAD could work except dedede can't move that well horizontally in the air.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah we have the worst aerial momentum and 3rd worst run speed

What should be the next discussion?

Options:
Marths Dancing Blade
grabs (in general, specifically pikas, IC's, falcos and Dededes)
toon links projectiles
Zairs
any other ideas?

 

[exdia_16]

i throw WD's and side dodge to avoid and it always works against xenos

 

[Commander_Beef]

What about when he just IAP's away and it starts all over again?

Also, whats the best way to approach once your through the lasers? I don't really like Beefs idea as Falco is my secondary and I verse him a fair bit, people think you are going to grab when you get close. Most of the time they will jab which is faster then your moves, and either cancel it into a grab or keep doing it, depending on if you shielded or spotdodged.

My opponent has hardly ever done that because he's just that stupid lol! But if he keeps doing it, we just have to mix it up with travelling dodge rolls or just slowly puff over there with our worst horizontal aerial movement. Lots of air camping is the best way to deal with the matchup anyways, in my opinion.

To your next question, I would usually short-hop an Inhale because he can't grab us during it and most of the time when we're that close, the super armor frames from Inhale will be in effect, so no worries.

Next discussion should be either Zero Suit Samus's neutral B or side B. But then again...I would want Marth's side B too... Gah.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Beefy, Marth's side B is so punishable if you know when to grab.

 

[Zaffy]

Equip a frakelin badge.

 

[Commander_Beef]

That's true...I think there would not be that much discussion on is anyways.

 

[Jupz]

Marths side B is very effective for punishing grabs and spot dodges, and they won't use it unless their sure there going to hit. Its also hard to SDI out of.

ZSS side B is another good idea.

So whats it gonna be?

 

[o-Serin-o]

Zss's side b has been getting alot of "It's overrated" and that most pros hardly use it anymore. If anything leave that and dsmash out of the discussion because at some point we are going to get hit with it.

 

[Jupz]

Ok. So is Marths dancing blade alright with everyone?

 

[o-Serin-o]

Nope. Move to Kirby's Grabs.

 

[Bwa]

Wario's neutral b?

 

[o-Serin-o]

Wario's bite isnt much of a problem IMO. It basically just poking him with ftilt and punishing him with CG if he misses.

 

[WingedKnight]

FTilt the Chomp. Simple 'nuff. XD
Dancing Blade might be nice. Dirty spammers...

 

[Commander_Beef]

Nope. Move to Kirby's Grabs.

That's even more unsmarter to discuss than Marth's dancing blade...
All you have to do against Kirby's grabs are see when they're coming...then spotdodge. They mainly just use them to start when at low percents anyways.

 

[o-Serin-o]

It's easy at first, but once someone catches on, it can be a ***** to punish.

 

[Jupz]

What about grabs in general? IC's grabs, Falcos, Pikas, Dededes, Kirbys, MKs, and other characters that can combo or chaingrab us out of a throw.

 

[WingedKnight]

That's not a bad idea Jupz! God knows the King is as grabbable as he is grabby if you don't know what you're doing! XD

 

[Jupz]

Ok GRAB DISCUSSION GO