Dedede Tactical Strategy 20 - IC's Desynchs

[Jupz]

Yeah, but if he's spacing it perfectly and mixing it in with Dtilt and Ftilts it can be very hard to punish. Try to grab him as he lands or after a shielded jab.


How about we make the discussion Marths spacing game as they don't just use Fair and only talking about Fair would not be sensible as they use a variety of spacing tools.

 

[CRASHiC]

I enjoy a good b-sticked waddle throw to draw out the forward air, and counter with a potential gordo or waddle. The Bstick, when pushed the opposite direction of your forward jump moves you out of his forward air range, and presents for him a waddle in the face.

If you want to jump backwards, and still want the push, hit forward just before you hit the side b, this technique also works with the jethammer, but I doubt (highly) that the hammer is in range.

 

[Jupz]

I don't use B-sticking, but thats an interesting idea.

Most Marths will SHFFFair, if this is the case you can grab him as he lands if he doesn't retreat far. However watch out for SH double Fair as this will hit you away.

Another option is to walk away a little out of his Fair range and Ftilt him.

 

[CRASHiC]

Bsticking essentially turns Jethammer and Waddle throw into counter moves, they work great against characters with slow aerial movement speed like Metaknight.

****s so cash.

 

[Jupz]

I highly doubt I'd use it, but it would be fun to try out sometime.

 

[Tekk]

Hum, what I usually do against marth is staying in the air, waiting him for his first Fair, dodging it and punish him before his 2nd Fair.
I also use Ftilt when he lands on the ground after his spaced Fairs, in this case a waddle is also a good option if he goes too far from you.

 

[Jupz]

Updated with Olimars Pivot Grab and Falco's Lasers summaries.

Is his Nair punishable when spaced/tippered?

 

[Commander_Beef]

Is his Nair punishable when spaced/tippered?

Oh yes it's quite punishable if we shield or spotdodge at the correct time. It's easier to punish than his forward air because it has slightly less range.

 

[Jupz]

Hmm ok good, as they like to use tippered Nair to kill. Try to predict and punish it at high percents. We can also punish a shielded jab fairly easily, but we can't punish a tippered Ftilt unless we perfect shield it.

 

[CRASHiC]

You can't punish if he auto cancels it, which is much more deadly than auto canceled fair.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I'm not familiar with Marth auto-cancelling an aerial. It doesn't seem realistic in this game, how do you mean Crashic?

 

[CRASHiC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC5HmUM2LDE&feature=related

Check it there. Its deadly, extremely.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Oh! I saw the auto-cancel when Marth used it for his forward air just before landing... I see now.
But that doesn't mean Marth's neutral air is not punishable, really though. He'll just getthat small boost but not talking about his neutral air at all.

 

[CO18]

I play Neo alot on waifai, He doesnt use nair ever to approach he just like NEVER shields, he just uses nair in oppose to shielding lol when retreating he always has a hitbox out.

Yea lagless fair is pretty ghey, neo does fair to buffered pivot grab/ buffered pivot side b soooo annoying.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah Marths Nair always cancels like that on the ground.

Also yeah thats interesting when I watch videos of the top Marths they rarely shield. We could Ftilt him from a safe distance if he decides to retreat with Nair.

Any strategies to get inside his range?

 

[T3h Albino]

Shield + Bair is what i find works most of the time. Sometimes throwing out an Ftilt will mess up their spacing.

 

[Tekk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC5HmUM2LDE&feature=related

Check it there. Its deadly, extremely.

HAHA I told you, Mr R is not the europpean best Marth for no reason :D

Mh I don't know exactly how to counter Marth's spaced Nair, I've got a lot of trouble with, and I don't play marths much so...>_<

 

[Jupz]

What about Fullhop Dairing over the top of them?

 

[o-Serin-o]

Mmm that Marth was sexy.

Break Fair spacing with a Dtilt if they get too close

Break Nair spacing with a OoS Dair (which I cant really do since I use wiimote nunchuck...)

I also noticed the Marth in that video didnt use a SINGLE smash. Most notable was a missing Fsmash

 

[Commander_Beef]

What about Fullhop Dairing over the top of them?

We would have to see the neutral air coming, but even that...if we fullhopped a down air, our aerial movement wouldn't be fast enough for the down air to hit Marth especially when his large horizontal hitbox is still out. it doesn't seem realistic for the down air to prevail .

 

[haloman800]

I enjoy a good b-sticked waddle throw to draw out the forward air

What exactly is a B-sticked Waddle throw (or B-stick any move for that matter) ?

 

[T3h Albino]

setting your cstick to specials

 

[CRASHiC]

What exactly is a B-sticked Waddle throw (or B-stick any move for that matter) ?

Its what Alby Said.
If done right, you will reverse your momentum, enough to evade attacks. My favorite is the bsticked Jet Hammer to beat up on Tornadoes.

 

[Jupz]

I meant when he was coming down from an Fair we shielded or something beef. But yeah I suppose we would still be too far out. It would work if you think he is going to Dtilt though.

Never knew you used a wiimote and nunchuck serin

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

dude i didnt read anything but i love this matchup.


all u gotta do is ftilt to trounce any ground game he's gona try to mix in, then after a ftilt, turn and do a moving bair

fall turn and either do one of three things based on marths position

Grab range? grab
just outside of that? d-tilt
far? do another ftilt into the previous setup.

every grab should be d-throw ftilt, not chaingrab, because the best position u can be in is controling marth on stage, building poking damage, ur not gona edgeguard marth, not safely anyway.

after the ftilt from d-throw do the setup listed above.
at any time u feel like they're gona wait for ur ftilt to end, and punish ur bair with a fair, then instead of bairing, throw out another ftilt and that should interrupt they're fair approach. putting them back at bay.

I'll try to record matches vs Chaz on wednesday (best marth in fl) and i'll get back to u with video examples.

 

[o-Serin-o]

ur not gona edgeguard marth, not safely anyway.

Complete bull**** (from my perspective.)

Edgeguarding Marth is REALLY easy for me especially because he recovery is readable. Hug the ledge, when he comes in close, fall off and bair immediately. If you wanna make sure he stays gone, WoP him. If he tries to Up-B stage spike you, roll back on to the stage and punish him since he more than likely wont be grabbing the edge.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

that's not true at all, play a smart marth that waits, by side bing low, and the second u try to come down, hes gonna upb ur foot, u stay there? hes waiting for ur invincibility to run out anyway so he can up b for free and steal the ledge.

Risk reward=NOT WORTH IT

 

[T3h Albino]

i edgeguard marth all the time. Watchu talkin bout saybriks?

 

[CRASHiC]

I made a Marth get use to stopping my edge guarding in a friendly, then instead of following him off the edge, used uptaunt, then uptilted his landing. NOT RECOMMENDED THOUGH. Fun for friendlies only.

 

[o-Serin-o]

More than likely, I'm going to hit him with a Bair before he gets low. If he even gets near my range of Bair, I'll take the chance to hit him. if he up-b's me, I wont get stagespiked unless I DI wrong. If he's slightly above me, I'm going to jump and Bair him.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

all im gona say is, go play chaz.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Does he do wifi?

 

[T3h Albino]

LOL. Ill play chaz ive been meaning to, ive only played him in dubz <___<.

 

[CO18]

You cant edgeguard marth unless theyre stupid or were forced to use their double jump already, most u can get is chip damage with waddle dees or if you time it right grab the ledge then punish him as hes forced to up+B over the ledge(which u still cant get all the time)

Though whats the point of doing down throw ftilt for like what 14$? When you can just cg for
20-40 then back throw for another 16?

 

[o-Serin-o]

But CG'ing Marth is a ***** D=

 

[CRASHiC]

Oh yeah, I do that up b punish by using something seibrik proposed in the metagame thread.

Chaingrab to edge, downthrow, intercept their jump with ftilt, then the marth will up b, then I forward air. I love it

EDIT- Wow, aren't we productive lately.

Also Serin, its sometimes good make a Marth think you can't chaingrab him. He'll have the up b ready, then you punish it.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Accord to the matchup export, he can just walk away. >.>

We arent productive because I'm not productive >.> The more I slack off, the more the d3's boards slack off >.>

...Well, except for Gates. He always slacks off.

 

[CRASHiC]

No I mean we really are productive. This Marth discussion is the best discussion in this thread so far.

 

[T3h Albino]

But CG'ing Marth is a ***** D=

Only if you have bad timing.
And i suppose i ahven't really played a good math lately unless umby counts but i gimped him so.....The marth matchup is one of my best matchups though so mabey that coutns for something

 

[o-Serin-o]

Cuz Marth be growing up on the tier list =3