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Focusing on Metaknight's weaknesses

Seagull Joe

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Wolf cannot edge guard Mk from below because uair gimps are lethal, but if he is at the sides then he can be easily Bair'd straight into death.

Case and point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ep84yXCTE

@ 4:02-4:11 I completely trapped Mk in a horrible position. He was in the air and Mk being the 4th slowest character in the game in the air, he couldn't do much to avoid this. If he nado'd back I could've followed up with a Dacus and if he aim'd at me I could've done a Short hop shine>Dsmash which would true combo.

Regular grounded shine doesn't combo into Dsmash, but a short hop shine would.
 

John12346

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Let's get the in-person thing out of the way... I always attend tournies in NY, and Shippo keeps me up to date on nearby tournies in NJ. That's that. If you make it to the same tourney as me, we should indeed have some friendlies! I'd have to watch you play some other MK tho, cuz I'm not the best MK on the block. >.>

. . . what? I'm not going to even devise a counter-argument to this, because it's just false. If MK hits your shield with a tilt while you are in grab range, you should grab him, plain and simple. On ftilt, the guessing game is vastly in your favor.
Ftilt has low enough lag, and over here we have three possible options; another Ftilt, Dtilt or a grab.

Metaknights know to space this move to avoid grab punishment. It's practically a given and if the MK isn't spacing it, he's doing it wrong. If MK was going to do something THAT close to the opponent, he'd likely go with Nair or Shuttle Loop or something, and those are devastating at point-blank.

Perhaps you have poor reaction time. This is a viable mix-up, but by no means should you let this frequently happen to you. Letting MK completely enter your range and grab you means you're doing something wrong, and have not developed good habits.
I admit I went a bit overboard suggesting MK can land and grab you simple as that. What I should've suggested is that, if you shield, expecting a Nado, MK gets a window of opportunity to land, and that's no good.

I wouldn't consider this most popular way. Also, MK is typically disadvantaged when on the ledge, as I've mentioned several times.
I still say MK has MORE than his fair share of options at the ledge...

Because of the height that a ledge jump gives Lucario, this switches his position from a ledge trap to a juggle. It's still a disadvantaged position. Many good characters, including MK can make this transition, but until your feet hit the ground, you're still in a bad spot. MK without the ability to tilt or shield is not nearly as powerful, and is vulnerable to most good characters at this time.
The ledgejump may not be the BEST idea, but people expecting you to use a ledge move that keeps you stuck on the ground can be caught offguard with it. Actually, y'know what, screw it, I still think MK has too many better options he can use.

I play Marth and MK (amongst many other characters, but these are my mains). I typically KILL my opponents when getting them on the ledge, except for MK. However, I often do manage to keep MK pinned at the edge, or at least punish his return (often resetting the pin, sometimes on the other edge)
Tbh I think this is a Marth specific point. I see a lot of players have trouble getting back onto the stage against Marth specifically, especially on stages like Battlefield.

Or maybe your opponent Metaknights are doing it wrong... >.>

****, what a game breaking strategy! I'm just going to infinitely fly in this precise spot, and wait for you to do something laggy, even though only one move in my arsenal with low priority game hit you.
Look, the point is that, if the opponent DOESN'T do anything, like attack or spotdodge, MK can just grab the ledge, and the cycle continues. This situation is either opponent gets hit or MK regrabs the ledge, is all.

If you have a video of this tech getting messed up, I wouldn't mind seeing it.

Most often no. Feinting a retreat and then hitting an opponent who drops their shield, or stabbing the shield are the safest ways to not get punished for tornado. Most good characters can either dash to a punish, or use a boosting attack to punish MK for Tornado.
There's your mixup. Between feinting a retreat and going back in for a shieldstab, or actually retreating, the opponent won't know what to do, and mis-predicting it can end badly(You either get hit by Tornado or allow MK to safely land with 30 frames of landing lag... HALF A SECOND.)

MU specific stuff
Okay, I think you just agreed with me on the point that MK has advantages in all matchups that severely beat out his disadvantages?
 

napZzz

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pierce, why do you think mk is bad on the ledge? First of all, being on the ledge isn't necessary meant to be a GOOD Position for ANY character. But mk has so many options from it than a standard character does, being able to plank, rise quickly with aerials, use nado/other special if the need arises, or just float up and away and come back down with something you most likely wont punish, like a well placed nado or fair

Tell me who's better than him on the ledge. Marth cuz he can do that drop fair thing? lol.

Plus mk is in a good position to **** people up offstage from the ledge with things like drop down nair/dair or reverse shuttle loop to regrab the stage depending on character
 

Seagull Joe

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Mk can't Uair Wolf under halberd or delfino because his Dair reaches far under the stage lol. He just gets spiked and it's my favorite position for an Mk to be at. On those stages specifically.
 

Dekar173

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Mk can't Uair Wolf under halberd or delfino because his Dair reaches far under the stage lol. He just gets spiked and it's my favorite position for an Mk to be at. On those stages specifically.
Most wrong thing ever?

In the time it takes for you to COMMIT TO A DAIR MK upBs you.

Where is your god now?
 

Seagull Joe

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Most wrong thing ever?

In the time it takes for you to COMMIT TO A DAIR MK upBs you.

Where is your god now?
No, it's correct. I don't mean at the edge. I mean under the stage. And I'm gonna go by not by frame data or theory, but actual gameplay. I've done it to so many Mk's.
 

Throwback

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remember, no-one ever gets hit by any move slower than 8 frames, because that's theoretical human reaction time. So no, I don't think you have ever spiked an MK, or that it' a legit tactic.

You KNOW there's an implied /sarcasm at the end of this
 

Pierce7d

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Oh, I remember you now. Well, Shippo is a personal friend of mine, so why we talk later, and I can PERSONALLY SHOW you how MK is not good on the ledge.

I understand it might sound arrogant or insulting for me to say that most players, including many good players, completely suck ledge traps. However, this is the unfortunate truth.

The ledge is ONLY a strong position for MK if he does NOT intend to rise from it. If you are getting negative returns from knocking MK to the ledge, you're doing it wrong.

Mew2King, Ally or Ksizzle, please name search and back me up on this.
 

ksizl4life

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Oh, I remember you now. Well, Shippo is a personal friend of mine, so why we talk later, and I can PERSONALLY SHOW you how MK is not good on the ledge.

I understand it might sound arrogant or insulting for me to say that most players, including many good players, completely suck ledge traps. However, this is the unfortunate truth.

The ledge is ONLY a strong position for MK if he does NOT intend to rise from it. If you are getting negative returns from knocking MK to the ledge, you're doing it wrong.

Mew2King, Ally or Ksizzle, please name search and back me up on this.
He's right yo

but speaking of planking, that **** is gay

and someone needs to find a legit way to stop it (coming from an mk main)

plankings gay. pierce, do something!
 

Orion*

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I realize exactly what I typed, and I know what I'm talking about. I main MK after all. I live in New Jersey, and have played extensively with M2k, Atomsk, Orion, Nairo, Ksizzle, etc. I have also played pretty much every top MK in the country.

I don't just say stuff without knowing what I'm talking about.
im booty idk why im on that list LOL
 

DanGR

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Oh, I remember you now. Well, Shippo is a personal friend of mine, so why we talk later, and I can PERSONALLY SHOW you how MK is not good on the ledge.

I understand it might sound arrogant or insulting for me to say that most players, including many good players, completely suck ledge traps. However, this is the unfortunate truth.

The ledge is ONLY a strong position for MK if he does NOT intend to rise from it. If you are getting negative returns from knocking MK to the ledge, you're doing it wrong.

Mew2King, Ally or Ksizzle, please name search and back me up on this.
What kind of good player doesn't want MK on the ledge? (assuming LGLs are forcing him to get back on stage). That's just about the best position you could possibly be in against MK.
 

Exdeath

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What kind of good player doesn't want MK on the ledge? (assuming LGLs are forcing him to get back on stage). That's just about the best position you could possibly be in against MK.
There are several posts in this thread saying otherwise, which is why Pierce is having to argue this point. :dizzy:
 

The Truth!

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By the way Pierce I appreciate your write ups. Seems like you did a good job actually fulfilling the point of this thread and it was helpful.

To all the "lol MK is broke and has no weaknesses" people or those who said something similar (especially at the beginning of the thread) please just leave. Save your pro-ban agenda for something more useful and less destructive to those actually trying to be pragmatic. I swear some of you are starting to make it seem like a cult, you dont have to bring up the same broken record arguments in every thread.
 

-LzR-

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Seriously, MK has this one minor weakness, his sword not being able to cancel out projectiles. It is not a big one, but it matters since shielding or dodging them can get punished.
That is all
 

Dr. Tuen

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I heard this one a while back... somewhere. And I looked up the frames.

"When MK dsmashes, as Falco, respond with a Fsmash".

Sooooo... Let's look!

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
**Shield drop advantage front: -18**
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13

**This is how many frames the other person has to do... something. After dropping their shield post-dsmash.

So, Falco now has 18 frames to....

Fsmash:
Total: 49 frames
First hits on frame 16 – 18 at least
Shield hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -22

So his fsmash hits in 18 frames at the latest? And MK's dsmash leaves 18 frames to work with after NOT POWERSHIELDING. Buffer up a F-smash and you get some free damage.

===

Really though, I think there are a lot of things about MK's frames that have not been looked into carefully enough. Like I didn't know that ftilt had 30 frames of cooldown on the 2nd and 3rd hits. That leaves TWENTY THREE [23] frames of shield drop advantage to someone else. Again, this is for NOT powerhielding. In the case of Falco, he could fsmash, dsmash OR usmash out of that. Pretty cool.

===========================
===========================

SHUTTLE LOOP.

The other thing about this that I haven't seen posted here yet (though I did skip a few pages near the end...) is the priority on this attack.

Aside from the invincibility frames on the start up of the grounded variety of this attack... the priority on this attack is TERRIBLE. I've been out done by PHANTASM. So if you are fighting someone with an obvious KO pattern (throw to up b?), then it might be a good idea to throw out a long lasting attack (a lot of people have nairs that would work) and let him run into it. Most MK's will execute attacks as fast as possible, so their pattern and timing will be easy to predict.

Or you could be a complete beast and react to it. Obviously a lot harder, but if you have a quick aerial move and you space your recovery so that shuttle loop has to hit high, you improve your chances of reacting in time.

===

Anyways, I'm off to tell my friend about the Falco F-tilt thing.

See ya!
 

Vseriac

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Like that one person said, MK is super predictable (not a stretch). MK's attacks and throws are virtually lag resistant; however, characters such as Sonic can easily run away from them, and characters such as Marth can use counter to punish these lag resistant attacks. Also, MK's recovery is predictable, making ledgeguarding easier against him than many think.
 

FOUREYES

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Like that one person said, MK is super predictable (not a stretch). MK's attacks and throws are virtually lag resistant; however, characters such as Sonic can easily run away from them, and characters such as Marth can use counter to punish these lag resistant attacks. Also, MK's recovery is predictable, making ledgeguarding easier against him than many think.
MK's recovery is the least predictable in the game. He essentially has six options for recovery: Six jumps, a glide, Shuttle Loop, Dimensional Cape, 'Nado, and Side+B (forgot what it's called), not to mention an amazing air game to punish anyone who tries to jump out and challenge him.

I'm not trying to argue that MK doesn't have any weaknesses here, but his recovery is DEFINITELY not one of them.
 

Judo777

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MK's recovery CAN be as predictable as he wants. you can't hit him while hes recoverying anyway.

Also point 3 was particularly funny to me. MK's options don't get much better when he power shields, this is true. But the reason that is so is because he can ALREADY hit you with most of his move set when you hit his shield (granted if he does powershield he gets to probably do anything and everything lol. That's really not much of a weakness.

More so giving advice for people to power shield more is silly. Power shielding requires you to KNOW when your opponent will attack. Telling people to powershield more is literally equivalent to telling people to pick Marth and then proceed to counter everything. Its the exact same thing. In every fighting game it is usually a rule that if you know what ur opponent will do you can punish it. Too bad we aren't all robots.
 

SaveMeJebus

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MK's recovery CAN be as predictable as he wants. you can't hit him while hes recoverying anyway.

Also point 3 was particularly funny to me. MK's options don't get much better when he power shields, this is true. But the reason that is so is because he can ALREADY hit you with most of his move set when you hit his shield (granted if he does powershield he gets to probably do anything and everything lol. That's really not much of a weakness.

More so giving advice for people to power shield more is silly. Power shielding requires you to KNOW when your opponent will attack. Telling people to powershield more is literally equivalent to telling people to pick Marth and then proceed to counter everything. Its the exact same thing. In every fighting game it is usually a rule that if you know what ur opponent will do you can punish it. Too bad we aren't all robots.
You make it seem as if shielding has as much lag as Marth's counter. I never said power shield more. I just think that as time goes on, player's reaction time will start to get better. If you look at some old melee matches, you will rarely see anyone reflect their enemy's projectile with their shield.
 

Judo777

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You make it seem as if shielding has as much lag as Marth's counter. I never said power shield more. I just think that as time goes on, player's reaction time will start to get better. If you look at some old melee matches, you will rarely see anyone reflect their enemy's projectile with their shield.
very few of MK's moves are more than 10 frames of startup. It is almost impossible to react to something that is faster than 10 frames consistently. More so MOST of MKs moves happen before frame 6 so reacting to them isn't likely at all. Therefore you have to PREDICT when he will swing in order to powershield it. Translation you CAN counter with marth in the same circumstance (I obviously understand counter is much less safe then shield and therefore if you miss time you don't get wrecked the same way, but being successful yields the same).

Also the entire concept is like saying "MK isn't as good as other characters because he doesn't have a large handicap in his shield, therefore when timed correctly he doesn't feel as refreshed when he loses his handicap as other characters."

Like it would be a valid point if other character had MUCH better moves to hit you with when they did powershield, but whats honestly better than MK hitting someone with a Nair or dsmash that characters NEED a powershield to land and CAN land them after a powershield? I can think of like 8 moves.
 

NO-IDea

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I kind of skimmed past the big posts. Just on a brief note: Pierce, you shouldn't have to call on others to back yourself up. You sound less of an authoritative figure on the subject and more of a ***** riding on the backs of others when you do that, regardless of right or wrong. My 2 cents.

Anyway, tid bits on the MK MU I guess others should know:

Jab sucks. Long as you actually recognize the animation/sound and are familiar with the start-up, you should be able to know when you can punish and when you should just keep shielding as the MK is bound to pull out a move.

F-tilt has more lag on the second and third than the first. Someone has already mentioned the frame data so I won't go into specifics. Understanding the spacing required and that an MK normally has to walk to use this as a poking manuever could set your character up for multiple approaches. Dash in shield for example.

*Please bear in mind, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm simply stating your options. Obviously, the MK doesn't just have f-tilt as his option.*

D-tilt is safe on block when spaced but never safe on hit at low percents. Most characters with a frame 6 move or faster can punish d-tilt until perhaps around 50%? Around the time d-tilt has significant knockback that you're not in range to punish. So if MK attempts to use d-tilt as a poke maneuver, just know you can always play the gambit and let it connect just so you can punish. Just be careful. I never understood this, but if you crouch you're even more prone to trip to moves that have a potential of tripping. I tend to fall into this whenever I try punishing with my d-tilt instead of my jab on occasion.

U-tilt has superb range and a long lasting hitbox. You can't exactly land next to an MK in other words. For that matter, MK could always frame trap a u-air->n-air instead as well. Best advice is to take advantage of MK's aerial immobility and go for the ledge.

F-smash... well it's slow. That's the only negative side of that move. It's pretty safe on shield, kind of risky to attempt to perfect shield it.

D-smash, as someone mentioned earlier, has a lot of cooldown, both front and back. Learning what your characters options are and ingraining into yourself the proper response can really get you far in this MU.

U-smash is underused so I won't discuss it.

U-air is a godsend for MK. If your character has a move that has greater range than u-air, lucky you (Lucario, Wolf, etc.) Otherwise, again, take advantage of the aerial immobility.

D-air has significant lag at the end of it. Characters such as Sheik, ZSS and Falco have easy answers to d-air due to their high first jump and fast double jumps. Any characters with projectiles also tend to have better answers to d-air. On stages such as BF and SV, try to position yourself as close as possible using the ledges before attempting to chase MK. As someone noted earlier, crouching also helps in this case.

F-air... I still haven't gotten the hang of it, but you can always SDI up out of f-air on reaction if you train yourself to react that way. Meaning the higher the percent, the less likely f-air can ever be used as a juggler or kill move. Full-hop f-air is safe on a lot of characters though, however, MK is also in the air so depending on his follow-up option, you can still punish if you shielded the f-air.

B-air... is gay. The set-ups it provides are hilarious whenever I see them. Your best option is to SDI up (and footstool if they cancel the b-air.)

What else?

Tornado is punishable by any strong, disjointed hitbox. It doesn't have to be heavily disjointed however. IE., Samus can f-smash tilted up a tornado. This doesn't necessarily work the higher the tornado is (which for me example, has to be significantly high.)

Crouching again comes into play. The likelihood of perfect shielding is better. However, it would be wise to have an option that covers both sides, considering that if he's nadoin' that high, he can probably lagless land it. In other words, instead of going for the grab or tilt, it would be wiser to go for the aerial, as most d-airs or n-airs cover both sides. Even up+b works (my personal options.) Doesn't really apply to certain characters obviously.

In order for nado to trap you in, they have to slow their pace as soon as they hit you. A perfectly executed nado is something you can't really escape. SDI does not apply. Luckily, not everyone knows how to do this. Thus, if you get knocked out, your options differ depending on how you get out.

If you got knocked up, most characters have an aerial that can break nado. I still see Falco's attempt to d-air, or Lucario's attempt to d-air. These are the wrong choices if you ever get out. Use the right ones (n-air in both examples.) If you just fall out, air dodge into shield. Depending on your fall speed and how far you are from the ground, it could be a highly favorable position or you just get hit by last hitbox of nado. =/

Kind of tired now. I would go over how you can abuse the recoveries of MKs and stuff on gliding, but I'm sure someone is bound to argue over some point I made. "That's theorycraft" or "MK can do this."

Look. My experience speaks for itself. Take it from a low tier who's learned the ins and outs of MK as a character. If you really want more help in the MU, regardless of your character, you can contact in some form that isn't smashboards.
 

MintyFlesh

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Pierce, I read your stuff on ledge trapping mk, but how do you beat the air dodge onto stage thing from one of his smaller jumps? i dunno how to word it, but I think you know what I mean. the one where it's like really, really fast. he can do that into f-tilt, dash attack, shield, d-smash, roll, and for me it's impossible to keep mk on the ledge because of that.

What do you do to beat it?
 

Judo777

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I kind of skimmed past the big posts. Just on a brief note: Pierce, you shouldn't have to call on others to back yourself up. You sound less of an authoritative figure on the subject and more of a ***** riding on the backs of others when you do that, regardless of right or wrong. My 2 cents.

Anyway, tid bits on the MK MU I guess others should know:

Jab sucks. Long as you actually recognize the animation/sound and are familiar with the start-up, you should be able to know when you can punish and when you should just keep shielding as the MK is bound to pull out a move.

F-tilt has more lag on the second and third than the first. Someone has already mentioned the frame data so I won't go into specifics. Understanding the spacing required and that an MK normally has to walk to use this as a poking manuever could set your character up for multiple approaches. Dash in shield for example.

*Please bear in mind, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm simply stating your options. Obviously, the MK doesn't just have f-tilt as his option.*

D-tilt is safe on block when spaced but never safe on hit at low percents. Most characters with a frame 6 move or faster can punish d-tilt until perhaps around 50%? Around the time d-tilt has significant knockback that you're not in range to punish. So if MK attempts to use d-tilt as a poke maneuver, just know you can always play the gambit and let it connect just so you can punish. Just be careful. I never understood this, but if you crouch you're even more prone to trip to moves that have a potential of tripping. I tend to fall into this whenever I try punishing with my d-tilt instead of my jab on occasion.

U-tilt has superb range and a long lasting hitbox. You can't exactly land next to an MK in other words. For that matter, MK could always frame trap a u-air->n-air instead as well. Best advice is to take advantage of MK's aerial immobility and go for the ledge.

F-smash... well it's slow. That's the only negative side of that move. It's pretty safe on shield, kind of risky to attempt to perfect shield it.

D-smash, as someone mentioned earlier, has a lot of cooldown, both front and back. Learning what your characters options are and ingraining into yourself the proper response can really get you far in this MU.

U-smash is underused so I won't discuss it.

U-air is a godsend for MK. If your character has a move that has greater range than u-air, lucky you (Lucario, Wolf, etc.) Otherwise, again, take advantage of the aerial immobility.

D-air has significant lag at the end of it. Characters such as Sheik, ZSS and Falco have easy answers to d-air due to their high first jump and fast double jumps. Any characters with projectiles also tend to have better answers to d-air. On stages such as BF and SV, try to position yourself as close as possible using the ledges before attempting to chase MK. As someone noted earlier, crouching also helps in this case.

F-air... I still haven't gotten the hang of it, but you can always SDI up out of f-air on reaction if you train yourself to react that way. Meaning the higher the percent, the less likely f-air can ever be used as a juggler or kill move. Full-hop f-air is safe on a lot of characters though, however, MK is also in the air so depending on his follow-up option, you can still punish if you shielded the f-air.

B-air... is gay. The set-ups it provides are hilarious whenever I see them. Your best option is to SDI up (and footstool if they cancel the b-air.)

What else?

Tornado is punishable by any strong, disjointed hitbox. It doesn't have to be heavily disjointed however. IE., Samus can f-smash tilted up a tornado. This doesn't necessarily work the higher the tornado is (which for me example, has to be significantly high.)

Crouching again comes into play. The likelihood of perfect shielding is better. However, it would be wise to have an option that covers both sides, considering that if he's nadoin' that high, he can probably lagless land it. In other words, instead of going for the grab or tilt, it would be wiser to go for the aerial, as most d-airs or n-airs cover both sides. Even up+b works (my personal options.) Doesn't really apply to certain characters obviously.

In order for nado to trap you in, they have to slow their pace as soon as they hit you. A perfectly executed nado is something you can't really escape. SDI does not apply. Luckily, not everyone knows how to do this. Thus, if you get knocked out, your options differ depending on how you get out.

If you got knocked up, most characters have an aerial that can break nado. I still see Falco's attempt to d-air, or Lucario's attempt to d-air. These are the wrong choices if you ever get out. Use the right ones (n-air in both examples.) If you just fall out, air dodge into shield. Depending on your fall speed and how far you are from the ground, it could be a highly favorable position or you just get hit by last hitbox of nado. =/

Kind of tired now. I would go over how you can abuse the recoveries of MKs and stuff on gliding, but I'm sure someone is bound to argue over some point I made. "That's theorycraft" or "MK can do this."

Look. My experience speaks for itself. Take it from a low tier who's learned the ins and outs of MK as a character. If you really want more help in the MU, regardless of your character, you can contact in some form that isn't smashboards.
You can take MK's dtilt and hit him before he can shield? I find that hard to believe but maybe I'm wrong. Also hope you don't trip.

Here is the problem with moves like MK's ftilt. You can punish all 3 of the hits on shield..... but which hit is he gonna end on? He can ftilt one your shield and then stop, or he can ftilt 2 your shield and stop, or he can ftilt 2 then wait a second then ftilt 3. Or he can do any combination of those options. And the time you guess wrong you are now in the air against MK which is bad.

My only other critique is what character in smash WANTS to be on the ledge vs MK. I spend half the match trying to get off the freaking ledge I can't imagine why anyone would want to go there. MK can cover i think 4 of your 5 getup options with fsmash. That's and issue if you ask me. He can also cover the 5th if you don't do it right.
 

B.A.M.

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some characters can punish MKs recovery. When MK recovers, he usually has to utilize glide, a b move, or some combination of both. His aerial mobility is horrendous without his specials and glide. down b is something that you can edgehog on reaction. Now Shuttle Loop is an option usually used when closer to the stage for solid reasons; MK doesnt want to force himself into a position where he's SL gliding forward because in some cases that means death or punish and reset. We have drill rush thats often used by MKs which gets him usually a free pass to the ledge. The thing is, a couple of characters have tools to reliably beat out drill rush. For example, Sonic can run off fair drill rush to beat it every single time, D3 can Dair Drill rush easily, Marth can counter or up b,etc. Check your characters multi hit aerials or projectiles and see what you can find. Some characters can even uses their smashes on Drill Rush. Nado is always fun because they lose the option of retreating; they have to go through you. So charging an appropriate smash is VERY strong in this scenario. Last we have general glide, which is also defeated by multi hit attacks because Glide attack will cancel out with the first hit of anything basically.
Its unfortunate because there are characters with movesets capable of punishing his main recovery options and people dont utilize to the best of its abilities.He has a strong recovery, but people need to realize there are gaps in MKs recovery options.
 

army man

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and since MK has somewhat slow gliding couldn't you SH an up aerial or if he's flying back to the ledge just use projectiles links boomerang to blow him back after his glide is over? wait even better,if he's flying back on stage use squirtle's or mario's water attack, then go for a few quick air attacks
 

Judo777

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some characters can punish MKs recovery. When MK recovers, he usually has to utilize glide, a b move, or some combination of both. His aerial mobility is horrendous without his specials and glide. down b is something that you can edgehog on reaction. Now Shuttle Loop is an option usually used when closer to the stage for solid reasons; MK doesnt want to force himself into a position where he's SL gliding forward because in some cases that means death or punish and reset. We have drill rush thats often used by MKs which gets him usually a free pass to the ledge. The thing is, a couple of characters have tools to reliably beat out drill rush. For example, Sonic can run off fair drill rush to beat it every single time, D3 can Dair Drill rush easily, Marth can counter or up b,etc. Check your characters multi hit aerials or projectiles and see what you can find. Some characters can even uses their smashes on Drill Rush. Nado is always fun because they lose the option of retreating; they have to go through you. So charging an appropriate smash is VERY strong in this scenario. Last we have general glide, which is also defeated by multi hit attacks because Glide attack will cancel out with the first hit of anything basically.
Its unfortunate because there are characters with movesets capable of punishing his main recovery options and people dont utilize to the best of its abilities.He has a strong recovery, but people need to realize there are gaps in MKs recovery options.
Wait no MK almost never has to use GLIDE OR a B move. How often does D3 have to up B? D3 has 4 mid air jumps and the WORST aerial mobility in the game. And he almost never has to up B. MK has 5 and lower middle aerial mobility. MK probably never ever has to do either.

Next up edgehogging dimentional cape. This should btw NEVER happen. There has already been found an angle (about 45 degrees) that MK can dimentional cape and sweet spot the ledge, IF you do manage to run off and grab the ledge while he is on this trajectory he will PASS up the ledge and land on stage. Doing this makes it actually impossible to edge hog him.

Next up drill rush. usually a desperation recovery move due to its INSANE distance. There are quite a number of moves that beat drill rush (tho i have never heard of sonics fair because drill rush has similar priority to nado and is actually decently difficult to beat out from my experience). More so however the front of drill rush is VERY disjointed, so much so that M2K likes to use this to poke at low recoverying MK's. I think beating it out is a littel harder than you make it sound.

Next in line nado. Nado is certainly his worst recovery option (tho not THAT bad). However while doing so he has a few options to make it hard to punish. Firstly he can use it fairly high off the ground since there are very few moves that can beat nado from underneath that aren't charged smashes that require you to be grounded. Secondly MK certainly doesn't have to charge through you he can stop the nado and even hover over the ledge if he so chooses or hover near the ledge and make it a mixup of if he lands on the stage or gets the ledge. Or he can stop the nado over the ledge THEN continue after a second or so. All this is possible due to the fact that MK can begin nado VERY close to the stage since he has 5 jumps and can get to the stage without using b moves at all. All in all tho none of the options are that good but they are options none the less.

Lastly glide. Glide would be a whole lot more punish able if he couldn't attack with a humongous hitbox that covers his whole body and clanks with everything. But yes multi hit attcks can beat glide out provided they are spaced and timed correctly. Now if only you could do that at a reasonable height MK might have some issues. But any MK that NEEDED to use glide to get back would (if he were smart) glide far below the stage then use his 5 jumps to get up to the ledge safely. So I suppose if you are a character who can reliably fall very far below the stage AND through out a large disjointed multi hit attack then you can safely threaten MK out of glide. The only character that I can think of that can do anything sort like this is MK and GW. And even then GW can't go as low as MK's glide can.
 

B.A.M.

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Judo. Multi hit moves go through Glide attack. secondly your argument for drill rush being ' i think that you make it sound easier than it is.' doesnt really hold weight. Sonic's fair easily beats drill rush head on. Heck we can reverse fair it from below and stage spike (Sonics drop down fair goes through nado VERY well btw). D3's dair goes through drill rush. some smashes that can be tilted down go through drill rush. Im not saying every character has an easy answer to it like Sonic, but there are definitely some options people need to explore ( just curious, can Sheik Needle it?).

Also an MK isnt going to waste all his jumps returning to the ledge. why? because if he gets hit, even he is put into a bad position. I really dont get why you think edgehogging the cape bad, you get to ledge jump aerial for free. Same with nado. theres no mix up if you just aerial OoS or do an usmash before he can cross you up. You only allow MK to get that mix up when you are greedy and want a ground punish. Even then, there are dsmashes capable of covering both sides.

All Im saying is there are definite punishments for MK's 'invincible' recovery. People also need to realize that dependent on his height and distance, some recovery options are instantly lost. If an MK is hit at a low trajectory, hes not going to be SL u down there, hes not going to be nadoing, no caping, just really his jumps and side b.

I hope you understand Judo; im not saying all this is a walk in a park. I however do believe MK's recoveries dont get punished as much as they should. I do think it would be nice to have some sort of guide stating what characters options are vs certain recoveries. I have yet to see a D3 dair drill rush, ( granted im not watching tons of D3 vs MK and im sure the top D3s know this) it would be good to have this info compiled up. Theres tons of people still not sure how to beat out certain options ( i still see people getting owned by the low reverse SL recovery on to the stage).
 
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