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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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Fenrir VII

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So wait... you just basically ignored my MK post? I see he moved to a "disadvantage", but I can't see that at all...and I think I posted my thoughts pretty well...so if you disagree with it...please say how you do...but honestly, I don't think MK should be any worse than "even"


As for Snake...um...hard match. It will really try your patience as he beats a lot of your approaches and attacks straight up. It's not significantly for or against either character...just...hard.. I'll post more later.
 

Acex27

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If you have the reflexes for it (which you should, using fox) couldnt you get a good gimp after he c4 jumps? Or at least get a good edgeguard chain going. Oh and what attacks are guaranteed to knock snake off of his up B? Or do you just have to wait for SA frames to end? (sorry for the myriad of questions)
 

M@v

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So wait... you just basically ignored my MK post? I see he moved to a "disadvantage", but I can't see that at all...and I think I posted my thoughts pretty well...so if you disagree with it...please say how you do...but honestly, I don't think MK should be any worse than "even"


As for Snake...um...hard match. It will really try your patience as he beats a lot of your approaches and attacks straight up. It's not significantly for or against either character...just...hard.. I'll post more later.
Fenrir, you did say even and you did give support. however, not enough people said it was even. there was still a significant portion that said its a harder matchup. I cant base the main result on one person.
 

FzeroX

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I support Fenrir, all he said I agree with for the most part. I believe that a strong fox is even with MK, and to help us out, not many MK have exp against fox's (yet).
 

Zhamy

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Fenrir, you did say even and you did give support. however, not enough people said it was even. there was still a significant portion that said its a harder matchup. I cant base the main result on one person.
Many people said it was uneven because of one or two small reasons that aren't nearly significant enough to factor into the matchup, while Fenrir and I both defended against all of those points rather well. The matchup isn't based on how many people vote "Yea" or "Nay," but how effective and correct the analysis is. Obviously, it takes work for Fox to emphasize his advantages, but he does have advantages, and matchups are based on part theory and part current metagame.

Oh Snake. Fox is generally accepted as a soft counter for Snake, and there are many reasons why. Snake already loses his methods of baiting approaches, so from there, it's all downhill for Fox.
 

Fenrir VII

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Fenrir, you did say even and you did give support. however, not enough people said it was even. there was still a significant portion that said its a harder matchup. I cant base the main result on one person.
I support Fenrir, all he said I agree with for the most part. I believe that a strong fox is even with MK, and to help us out, not many MK have exp against fox's (yet).
Many people said it was uneven because of one or two small reasons that aren't nearly significant enough to factor into the matchup, while Fenrir and I both defended against all of those points rather well. The matchup isn't based on how many people vote "Yea" or "Nay," but how effective and correct the analysis is. Obviously, it takes work for Fox to emphasize his advantages, but he does have advantages, and matchups are based on part theory and part current metagame.
Yeah...basically.

Listen, I'm not just trying to be a jerk here...sorry if I came off that way. I just posted my opinion that the match was 60-40 for Fox...and afterward, people posted little things...but nobody really tried to disagree with anything that I said...at all...

Like, I realize that several people posted it was bad...but it is MK. I mean...if you don't play that match well, you will lose... If you don't play it a certain way, you'll lose...but if you do, it's easy as anything.

I just feel that I gave some of the best discussion about it...and several people agree with me..and nobody's really argued with me yet. I mean, I was actually telling m2k about the matchup at FAST1 after I played him. It's my favorite match, and my own personal soapbox...so forgive me if i'm taking it too seriously.
 

M@v

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MK changed to even. you guys are right. most of the others just said it was bad, without reasons. there still not much you can do if the mk spams tornado do realize(reason why i initiatlly said 4:6) nair from the top isnt the easiest thing to land. but we are done with mk. we will revisit him later if necessary. Other than that though, its should be even. Im just bad at fighting MK with fox.=(
 

Fenrir VII

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MK changed to even. you guys are right. most of the others just said it was bad, without reasons. there still not much you can do if the mk spams tornado do realize(reason why i initiatlly said 4:6) nair from the top isnt the easiest thing to land. but we are done with mk. we will revisit him later if necessary. Other than that though, its should be even. Im just bad at fighting MK with fox.=(

Even is fine with me. : ) Thanks, man.

btw, if you get hit by tornado, DI UP. you will pop out and get a free dair. the timing works out perfectly. so every tornado he does should do about 5% to you and at least 15% to him. it's free hits...and dair combos (eventually) into dsmash. just a piece of advice...but tornado is TERRIBLE to do against Fox...

idk why this works, really, but Fox just pops out the top of it. (yes, faster than they can move up with tornado...so they can't keep you in it) and MK ends it, and is still in lag when you get the dair...it's so beautiful.
Otherwise, if you're on the ground and he starts it...you can shield and chase it with a free grab...just be fast.

just a piece of advice on that topic. : ) thanks again.
 

Zhamy

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On the other hand...

Snake's usual means of forcing approaches through grenades and whatnot is completely destroyed by good laser camping. This means that Snake has to go on the offensive...and we all know that Fox's defensive options are much better than his offensive options. Dair->Utilt works wonders, and with Snake's relatively low attack speed, fitting in other things with Dair is very possible.

His recovery is laughably predictable, and timed correctly, it's possible to pseudo-spike him with Dair, which should be abused whenever possible. Snake's air game is, for the most part, easy to deal with. Fox may have some spacing issues, but Snake's aerials don't set up for anything else on Fox, so as long as you don't take too many hits, you should be fine.

On the ground, assuming that Snake is approaching, Fox has so many options it's ridiculous. It would be a waste to try to list them all, but experiment and you'll find a groove for yourself. You will have to watch out for Mortar Sliding and Jabs, but other than that, you can dance all day around Snake. Mines need to be watched out for, but it's difficult for Snake to punish Fox's recovery, especially compared to the havoc that others can cause. Snake just doesn't have the speed to punish Illusion, and Firefox, if mixed up enough, will just blow by Snake.

I have more things to say, but I'm heading off now. I'll let other people contribute.
 

RPK

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Actually if the Fox user doesnt grab the ledge through the illusion or the firefox, the Snake can just set a grenade in front of him for a bit of ground control. Then if you dont touch it, he can hit you out your illusion with an up tilt since it has ridiculous range and priority...So when recovering, go for the ledge if you can then get off
 

M@v

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Also a little trick, this works with sonic too btw, grab snake when hes in his up b and DONT hit him or throw, just let him break free. he will fall to his death. proceed to laugh hysterically at him.

Also, another great post zhamy
 

ZodiakLucien

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against snake its about getting the grab (dthrow) then reading what he does out of it. If you expect an aerial or grenade, uair them (a nicely spaced uair goes through everyone of snakes aerials), and if you expect airdodge charge an usmash. You really cant play risky in the match up, be more careful then usual. A snake with decent edgeguarding isnt letting you back on the stage till at least 60% if you are lucky. Bair is good to catch double jumps with.
 

§witch

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Also a little trick, this works with sonic too btw, grab snake when hes in his up b and DONT hit him or throw, just let him break free. he will fall to his death. proceed to laugh hysterically at him.

Also, another great post zhamy
Too, good, I said it last page along with something else on the match-up I don't remember...
 

Veggi

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For Snake I like to use DK, but Fox doesn't have any problems with him, however shine will not go through his cypher super-armor which annoys me very much. Lasers are very useful in this match-up, almost seems like Fox out camps Snake, WHAT? Fox can blow up the grenades he holds and throws by firin' his lasers. As a bonus if you fire them at his side-b missle, it will curve up wards and soar over Fox's head.
No, only chars who don't sweetspot the ledge.
It is? I thought it was just characters that don't go into the air cripple after using up-b.

Edit: This might not be true, because Jiggs doesn't go helpless, not sure how it would work for Jiggs. I've never tried it.
 

Zhamy

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Finally have internet again, but I'll be busy for a bit.

Just a reminder - Snake's tilts are !)$#*)@_(#$)^*@$^. Watch out for them, because getting hit by even one is just asking to get *****. For the most part, though, you can avoid running into tilts (which outrange you) by the sheer force of outcamping Snake.
 

§witch

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I think snakes always find a way to hit with ftilt. They just go to hell on your sheild it's so fast and spammable.
 

-Mars-

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It's really hard to approach Snake because his uptilt outprioritizes dair, and trying to approach him on the ground, your faced with ftilt. In this matchup I find myself dashing into a shield a lot more than I usually do. Grabs are your friend in this matchup and the laser helps you add little bits of percentage that accumalate during the match. Grenades really aren't much of a problem with your shine, so you can't be out camped but you still have a little trouble killing Snake. Fox's light weight doesn't help a lot either especially on Battlefield and Smashville where the ceilings are so low.
 

soul ark

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i just found out (mabye im a little slow on the uptake) but you can toss snakes box at him he cant do any thing about it (it happens when he gets up and throws the box on you grab it and toss it at him hopefully his taunting frames last long enough so he doesn't realize what your doing and does one of those broken tilts.)
 

Ryan-K

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snake kills mad early and can like crawl under lasers and dtilt outranges everything or he can just shield if you try some silllly ****

also






get ***** fox
 

Zhamy

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Why is Fox in an approaching position in those pictures?

Fox shouldn't have to approach.
 

RPK

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Well that isnt the point of those pictures...The point of them it so show that Snake can tilt you from a far *** distance and that your upsmash will clash with his forward tilt. In addition his tilts out range you so you cant even upsmash him out of the shield which in turn is all bad...
 

M@v

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Ftilt and utilt are fox's two worst enemies in this matchup. I swear at least 90% of the time against snake I wind up dying only from utilt....
 

Zhamy

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In addition his tilts out range you so you cant even upsmash him out of the shield which in turn is all bad...
Sliding shield->Usmash will tip him with the edges of Fox's feet.

And yes, Utilt/Ftilt ****. It's a chink in the armor, but Fox still has the upper hand.
 

Fenrir VII

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Well, the main point of this match is patience and precision. You basically have to be a surgeon here and only take what you know you have...

you have to realize that if you get too ambitious with a dair, usmash, or even a grab, you can be punished hardcore for it.

Snakes LOVE to turtle in their shield after forcing you to approach. you attack, they spot dodge tilt you. The difference in this match is that you don't really need to approach, unless it's clearly open. You have to do a LOT of waiting for dodges here, otherwise you take punishment.

Now all that is not to say that it's a bad match. it's certainly not. Fox is one of the best against Snake...you just have to be really careful. Personally, I believe this match is a true testament to your mindgaming ability. If you are a noob Fox, you will get hit by every tilt he throws by being predictable...so you HAVE to grow in your game and learn to be smart.

As for general strategy:

Lasers are your best friend...I'm not saying just stand there and fire away...use SHs and such...but racking that damage without real fear of punishment is nice. He will (usually) approach with mortar slide, which you can dair him out of. At that point, he's yours. dair, utilt x3, grab throw continue works...just when it's done...when he can defend himself...do NOT try to continue it. go back to lasers. If he's above 90%...that's usmash kill range...don't just go nuts and throw them all over the place...really plan it out. REALLY be careful about it. I would almost recommend disregarding your usmash unless it's just obvious...and going for a bair kill instead. Dair usmash will combo late in the % game...so watch for that.

Grabs are your second best friend. if you really want to approach Snake, a pivot wave grab is probably your safest bet as, if he dodges it, you slide out of scary range. In this match, probably up and down are your best throws. In the air, you can bait Snake out and punish him...you straight up can beat him in the air, so putting him in that position is a good idea.

Play around with shine dairs...don't just go for a dair...his utilt beats it. do a shine or two...or three, then dair his whiff. that's your best option. again, don't just be predictable about it, or he will jump and uair you out of it. mix things up.

Often in this match, it's best to just avoid confrontation. Instead of coming down with a dair, DI to the side, and just get away. start it over...even footing. It's really easy to slip into aggressiveness, and get your stock taken away just like that.

Edgeguarding...your best area here.
First of all...Snake's recovery is really easy to read. that's an overall Snake weakness in this game. USE IT AGAINST HIM.
Special things to note here. Strong Nair (hit at the beginning of the nair), uair, and bair all hit him out of his upB. The bair is underlined because it kills pretty early....so keep it in mind.
Yes, you can grab his recovery if the player is stupid enough to upB by the stage (you then DON'T attack or throw him, and he tumbles down, without a jump), but then, he just C4's his way back onto the stage...it's a great way to put dammage on him, but usually won't work to kill him. One thing I like doing is intentionally missing that grab, then edgehogging VERY quickly...often, this will surprise him into death. otherwise, a stage spiking bair is always good...and if nothing else, sure, land the grab.
When you hit him out, the Snake will usually recover high enough so you can't aerial him out of his upB (may start doing this after you catch it once). From this point, he's coming down onto the stage, where you are. If you stay on the ground (as you should) he has basically two options, if you play it correctly:
1. attack you with an aerial
2. airdodge into the ground
realize that both of these are punishable...even with an usmash out of shield... there's your killing opportunity, if you're fast enough. just be fast.

almost everytime he's in the air, and you're on the ground, he will do one of those two things. this is why I say you have to be a surgeon. He WILL give you chances, you just have to be really patient and wait for them.
That's also why I say throwing him into the air is a good idea...


basically, I say the match is straight up 5-5 even. I can see how it would be anywhere from 4-6 to 6-4 for each of the characters... but it's certainly winnable...

Some Foxes will come in here saying the match is impossible....it's not...it just requires a different Fox style and a LOT of patience and precision. certainly not that bad of a match for Fox.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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agreed. Im one of those guys who loves the fox vs snake chess game, and I usually do very well, as I win the majority of my fox vs snakes. My one complaint, as mentioned before, is that freaking utilt of snakes.


BTW i just got back from my 1st college frisbee practice, and im beat... im jammed tommorow, partly due because im going to a smash tourney ^_^. So Ill update the main page with input on thursday.
 

RPK

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It really surprises me that Fox can hold his own against most of the top tier characters...Possibly even as a soft counter...That sh** is too good....
 

Fenrir VII

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I'm personally inclined to think that Fox is no worse than 4-6 against the entire top tier...if it's not straight 5-5, to be perfectly honest.

Quickly:

MK I already discussed in this thread

Snake I just discussed in this thread

DDD is really comboed well by Fox, and if you're smart, he has a HARD time hitting you. also, lasers are money, and you can really do damage to his recovery. You just have to be careful, and it's not even as risky as Snake.

GW is a toughish match...I just get the feeling that Fox can get away with a LOT in it. usmash trades with fish bowl and turtle, both...so pretty much any time you feel like it, you can usmash GW. He's also light as a feather, and has a little bit of trouble KOing you, if you keep moving. tech the dthrow well with Mixups, and you'll give them headaches

Falco can cg you, but I have yet to see one get a cg spike on a Fox consistently. While he can do 0-60% on you, you can do it right back pretty quickly. You kill better than he does. you edgeguard better, and overall are much faster. Also, while Falco is desperately trying to land that grab, you're just doing damage...not a terrible match

ROB can't camp you out...it's beautiful. On top of that, he's a big heavy character...so your comboes are amazing. he's not incredibly heavy...so usmash kills pretty well. he can kill your recovery, but not if you mix it up well... basically, you beat him inside and outside...so he doesn't really know what to do.


yeah...Fox is a freakin GOOD character in this game, imo... of course he has weaknesses...and stupid matchups... but only really two matchups are very bad...as far as I can see now. those two are bad, sure...but if you have a viable CP char for them, you should be fine. Fox is so much fun in this game.
 

RPK

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Only problem I am personally having is against Diddy Kongs...Though by Diddy Kong I mean N4n3rz ._.

EDIT: And yeah...Our two match ups are stupidly bad...I mean really now...0-80/90 how f***ing wonderful ._.
 

goldemblem

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snake is an easy matchy, spam him with your blaster until he approaches, then punish him with a Dair or Shield grabbing, to avoid snakedashing just roll and punish him with a shine, the shine reflects the Projectile and It will set snake for an edgeguard, his drill to Utilt combo works very well until around 90%, it's a fun fight with advantage to fox
 

ShadowLink84

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Its posts like the above that make me feel sad when I use Fox.
Spamming your blaster?
Is that really the best you can think of? -_-;

Fox is at a disadvantages.
He can cook his grenades, nikita, setup mines to slow your ground work and use C4.
Fox is not going to be baiting Snake into coming forward it will be the other way around.
Reflector is useful but be careful cause those cooked grenades hurt.

his KO ability is greater than yours overall as well as his keep away game. If he edge guards you you will die if not take even more damage, at which point, he can constantly maintain spacing from you.
Blaster spam does not work against human players.

What Fox does ahve over snake is his extremely powerful comboes. With Snake's heavyweight and poor aerial game. once Fox has Snake ina combo, Snake is guaranteed to take an excess of 40% damage.

The problem though is that he outranges you and has attack speed equal to if not much lesser than your own.
So the key will be to make your hits count.
This will be difficult because many of Fox's approaches are committed so if you screw up once you are going to take a good amount of damage and a possible KO.
 

M@v

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Lol shadow link, your supposed to spam snake in this matchup. It owns all of his spam, and makes him apporach you. That way you dont have to go through the trouble of getting owned by tilts when you approach.

Foxs worst Top tier matchups are Falco and G&W. Falco can take a big crap on your face with the CG, and G&W's priority wreaks havoc with fox, since he is an aerial based character. DDD is slightly in DDD's favor, but not by much. Fox can combo the snot outta him and cant be CG'd, but its really hard to approach DDD, and his waddles eat your spam, so its hard to make him approach. Anyway, back to snake lol. Great input so far guys.
 
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