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Outclassed by grab in almost every aspect, it is a frame slower, does the same damage with out the benefit of pummels and has less range. Also even if you angle it up or down it has the same trajectory so idk why angling it down would lock them better. I bdacus at 50-70% char dependent and it really shouldn't work but it is pretty unexpected so you can catch them offguard with it. I would say that it has kill power over grab but Dash Attack is still faster and more powerful. Awful move.
I actually use this move more than I should, but I agree it's not good. Only place it should be used is against walls really... you could use this to replace jab when your opponent is at a percent where jab would be unsafe on hit I suppose...
Wow, I am surprised. I have always thought that ftilt is a decent move. I use it, not much, but not too little. Kinda hard to explain, no one ever talks about this move, but I agree it's pretty outclassed. I just don't think it's bad.
I am gonna write up more stuff later.
up-angled f-tilt has awesome shield knock-back...and it punishes oos short hops because it comes out REALLY fast...i use it about 10-12 times a match nowadays...advance your metagame scrubs
If your opponent is good at sdi and lying on the ground, a single ftilt will do more damage than jab can because Jigglypuff's walkspeed is too slow to follow up with another jab . From there you can dacus for about 25% damage in total.
Ftilt is ok for catching items and keeping them away at the same time. Like when diddy uses his glidetoss on you so he can combo you into a smash. You could catch his item and do a nice 10%
It also seperates ic cause its range is so bad it will only hit the ice climber in lead. OK for when they rush into you for a grab when you did a laggy move cause it comes out fast..
Just OK though.
For the next move I want jab to be discussed or rollout plszz
So by your standards I won a round 2 pool set against a 1st seed opponent because of a 1/10 move.
Please tell me you are joking that Rollout belongs down with that of Sing, Dtilt, and Dsmash.
Rollout may be pretty easy to avoid but let me remind you that it's going to hit sometime and when it does its freaking nasty and your opponents can just say goodbye to their stock if your at high %.
Rollout is a scary move, it starts up really fast considering it is such a powerful attack and it can be intimidating because if you mess up just once, you're going to get hit by it. If you stay and try to shield it Jigglypuff can hit you two more times by turning around which alot of times gets the opponent off guard which allows you to hit them.
Ways to use Rollout
1. Don't Spam it, use it once out of the blue. So you're fighting your opponent and they have alot of damage so stand a couple character lengths away from them and just suddenly charge out rollout. They need to react really quickly because if they shield while standing towards you, they're screwed. If their shield drops low enough you can shield poke them, if they are going to jump release rollout and punish them that way. I've done this many times before an even people that know how to counter rollout don't have enough time to think about whats happening in order to counter it. They're going to obviously know how to counter it if you charge rollout from the other side of the screen.
2. Reverse Rollout Mindgames, If you use a neutral B reversal in mid air, you can make Jigglypuff charge up rollout in the opposite direction you were facing in order to trick the opponent into thinking you're going to go towards them with rollout rather than the other direction. So your fighting another Jiggs who knows how to counter rollout, you do the reverse rollout and they turn their back to you and get ready to shield grab, you let go of rollout and they instinctively shield grab because there is hardly any reaction time, they just have to assume its going to try and hit them. However, our Jiggs goes the opposite direction and immediatly turns around delaying the process of the rollout and then the other Jigglypuff will still be in grab animation and will get hit by rollout.
3. Mid-Air Rollout, The least useful of the techniques that I have to offer is the Mid-Air Rollout. It's pretty risky but if you can read your opponent well enough it'll be very useful. Trick your opponent into thinking that you usually use rollout off the edge as a way to snap onto the ledge or continue the attack on the ground, and then when they least expect it release rollout early so that it lands on the upper half of the level (such as the middle platforms on Battlefield). I was at Apex 2010 in Round 2 of Pools, I made it to 2nd seed and I was fighting a 1st seed Falco. We got to match 3 on Battlefield and he were both on our last hits, he knocks me off the stage so I charge rollout but let it go early to aim towards the middle platforms, he jumps trying to avoid my rollout that he thinks I'm aiming for the ground and therefore jumps right into my aerial rollout leading me to defeat him and win the set.
4. Doubles matches, Rollout is a great way to get free kills in Doubles Matches, many many times have I taken out opponents who are busy with my teammate with rollout. Just to spam it too much so that you don't hit your partner instead -_- (also this is where a good partner comes in handy, one that knows you and therefore can allow you to use rollout and they'll know you well enough that the can get out of the way in time).
5. Jungle Japes, ****ing love this stage, and this is my #3 favorite reason why it is (besides the right platform and the high ceiling). You can grab every single ledge in this level including the ones that are inbetween the platforms, making it probably the only level where you can rollout away from the level and be able to snap onto a ledge. It makes very good use for getting to the other side of the stage quickly and it makes Rollout a bit harder to punish. Also another trick is that if you hold down on the control stick right as your about to grab the inside ledge you'll miss it and you'll grab the platform on THE OTHER SIDE of the platform (though you need to let go of the control stick before you touch the other ledge otherwise you'll miss that one too which = death).
--------
Conclusion
Most Jigglypuffs know already that to counter rollout you simply turn around and shield grab it, I don't know if this is applicable to the other characters but I'll take as they can to. Even with this in mind its the fear and the intimidation that makes this move so good and I don't care how good you are Rollout is a move that WORKS. And thats why I'm giving Rollout a 6/10. It may seem like thats a high number, but we're comparing the rest of Jiggly's moveset here, its a good kill move that can work alot and is great as a trump card if rest is out of the option.
Puffster I assume the reverse-rollout thing is a b-reverse right? Like snake's nade-reverse? Cause I never tought of using rollout that way. Seems interesting
Nah, not a b-reverse... he's just talking about turnaround-b. All that happens is that you turn around once you start the move - there's no shift in momentum.
Does Jigglypuff actually move noticeably when you b-reverse Rollout?
3. Mid-Air Rollout, The least useful of the techniques that I have to offer is the Mid-Air Rollout. It's pretty risky but if you can read your opponent well enough it'll be very useful. Trick your opponent into thinking that you usually use rollout off the edge as a way to snap onto the ledge or continue the attack on the ground, and then when they least expect it release rollout early so that it lands on the upper half of the level (such as the middle platforms on Battlefield). I was at Apex 2010 in Round 2 of Pools, I made it to 2nd seed and I was fighting a 1st seed Falco. We got to match 3 on Battlefield and he were both on our last hits, he knocks me off the stage so I charge rollout but let it go early to aim towards the middle platforms, he jumps trying to avoid my rollout that he thinks I'm aiming for the ground and therefore jumps right into my aerial rollout leading me to defeat him and win the set.
By that do you mean charging up Rollout when you're knocked off the stage and using it to grab onto the ledge? Because that's pretty much the only time I use it in matches.
Puffster I assume the reverse-rollout thing is a b-reverse right? Like snake's nade-reverse? Cause I never tought of using rollout that way. Seems interesting
No, there is no molmentum, by doing this Jigglypuff simply starts charging rollout in the opposite direction. It comes in handy because it can fool people into thinking which way your rollout is going to go.
Nah, not a b-reverse... he's just talking about turnaround-b. All that happens is that you turn around once you start the move - there's no shift in momentum.
Does Jigglypuff actually move noticeably when you b-reverse Rollout?
Thats pretty much what I was saying, but there is no momentum change when doing the reverse b rollout. If the opponent doesn't pay attention to which direction Jigglypuff is charging her rollout you can use this trick to your advantage.
By that do you mean charging up Rollout when you're knocked off the stage and using it to grab onto the ledge? Because that's pretty much the only time I use it in matches.
Yes thats what I mean, snapping onto the ledge is a flashy move, but my purpose is to make my opponent think thats what I'm going to do and then aim at them instead of the ledge when they least expect it.
Puffster I assume the reverse-rollout thing is a b-reverse right? Like snake's nade-reverse? Cause I never tought of using rollout that way. Seems interesting
You don't need to do a circle to b-reverse, just press the opposite direction you're facing after pressing B. It's very useful to mess with people And b-reversing it doesn't really change your momentum like some specials, Jpuff just turns the other way (what Jigglymaster said). However, an aerial Pound can be b-reversaled so that puff floats back and then pounds in the direction you were going.
Anyways, I have a lot to say on Rollout, but I don't have the time at the moment so I'll post something tomorrow night.
Yes, I'm not being completely serious in the slightest. This is just a long and drawn-out joke.
Rollout may be pretty easy to avoid but let me remind you that it's going to hit sometime and when it does its freaking nasty and your opponents can just say goodbye to their stock if your at high %.
Rollout is a scary move, it starts up really fast considering it is such a powerful attack and it can be intimidating because if you mess up just once, you're going to get hit by it. If you stay and try to shield it Jigglypuff can hit you two more times by turning around which alot of times gets the opponent off guard which allows you to hit them.
I didn't realize that 34 frames of start-up is such a small number! I also like how you're assuming that the opponent will somehow be hit by one of the most telegraphed moves in the entire game.
Ledge-canceled Sing is just as good as Rollout assuming the opponent messes up by your logic.
4. Doubles matches, Rollout is a great way to get free kills in Doubles Matches, many many times have I taken out opponents who are busy with my teammate with rollout. Just to spam it too much so that you don't hit your partner instead -_- (also this is where a good partner comes in handy, one that knows you and therefore can allow you to use rollout and they'll know you well enough that the can get out of the way in time).
I don't see why you wouldn't just Rest your busy opponents instead. A good partner would keep you from being mangled after the ending lag. But hey, that's just positive thinking.
I didn't realize that 34 frames of start-up is such a small number! I also like how you're assuming that the opponent will somehow be hit by one of the most telegraphed moves in the entire game.
I'm assuming it because its happened and has worked many times before in tournament matches that I've played. Rollout has won me more matches than everything except for Rest and Fair combined.
I don't see why you wouldn't just Rest your busy opponents instead. A good partner would keep you from being mangled after the ending lag. But hey, that's just positive thinking.
Totally, if I'm on the other side of the level to where my teammate and opponent are fighting, i'll be able to hit him with rest. Yup makes perfect sense noob! You really need to teach me how I teleport across the level with puff and rest them ^_^
You're not going to catch him off gaurd if your standing close enough to him to rest, but you will with rollout since you're on the other side the the level and he's not the slightist bit concered with you atm.
Rollout is not really comparable to other laggy start up moves because..
1. It's a gigantic lunge that goes across the screen
2. You can charge it however long you want.
3. Can be hard to punish a fully charged Rollout OoS
To say it's worse then Sing I'd say you trollin'
Anyways,
Rollout
8/10 (trollout.jpg)
Jigglypuff readies herself, then rolls quickly into the opponent. Uncharged it doesn't do much, but the longer you hold it, the stronger and quicker it becomes. Fully charged, it has great knockback while traveling far and fast. This move can be charged even in the air and it can even be ledge canceled.
Rollout gives puff another option to recover with. You are generally better off just using your jumps/Pound (our recovery is already godly) since Rollout is MUCH more punishable. I don't recommend you use it to recover because it's only situationally good; such as a mix-up and a punish. It is possible to get some kills from using it to recover, but you're a sitting duck. There are a lot of moves that out-prioritize Rollout and they can kill you while you're trying to charge.
Another useful trait to the move is that you can reverse your direction up to 3 times in one Rollout (on ground). This can be useful for mindgaming. Remember though, that when you switch directions there is no hitbox and you don't move much for a few frames. If you try to reverse midair, you will slow down significantly with no hitbox, and will not change direction till you hit the ground. This is VERY useful if you Rollout off stage, as it can prevent a suicide if you are moving too far to the horizontal, remember to aim for corners of the blastzone as they are the farthest away. It is generally possible to recover from a Rollout as long it's not too uncharged or fully charged facing the ledge point blank range.
There are also ways to create a "new" Rollout hitbox. When you use Rollout in the air, it gains a new hitbox upon landing on the ground. So if you're attacking someone on the ground from the air, and you angle it correctly, Rollout will hit their shield twice very quickly. Another situation, is when you hit a wall you will bounce off with your hitbox still intact. but you can change direction to roll back towards it multiple times if you are on the ground.
The weaker charges of Rollout (they don't sparkle) aren't very useful, you can only hit people when changing direction or in the air so yeah.. However, you can use a completely uncharged Rollout for a fancy edgehog. (The following 2 sentences are theory and I'm unsure if true yet) The hitbox of a completely uncharged Rollout actually comes out quickly. I've done a bair>bair>uncharged rollout combo before, and the Rollout seemed to come out almost instantly
A big mistake I see from many Jigglypuffs is that they use Rollout without thinking, when the opponent is safe and not vulnerable, like they won't be punished for it =\ A lot of people don't know how to punish it, I'll admit, (so sometimes it's not bad). Because who plays Jigglypuff? Generally what happens is people hold up their shield or jump, both which can be punished (the latter is situational, I discuss later). Smarter players will abuse moves that outpriotize Rollout, or shield then punish Jiggs if she tries to turn around and hit them again.
Rollout can be a lot easier to land if you mindgame it. If your opponent is trying to chase after you or such, you can b-reversal it as you are floating away to come back with deadly force. Just for refrence, to do a B-reversal press b and then press the opposite direction almost instantly after. One might have to practice to do it consistently. You should see Jigglypuff spin in one direction once then change to the other side. As said before, you can reverse Rollout mid-way, which can make it a bit less predictable.
A semi-good way to land this move is when your opponent is about to land and has used all jumps, since there is a few landing frames where they are vulnerable. If you're good at this, I highly recommend counterpicking a stages with no platforms to retreat to like FD or Picto, since they're now only safe if they attack puff herself or go to the ledge. This is effective mainly with characters who cannot land safely, like Snake who has fast falling speed and laggy aerials. It is not very effective against say Metaknight who has multiple jumps.
The most success I've had with this though, is predicting when your opponent is going to use a laggy move or getting in their blind spot close to them, charging Rollout, GG. Also remember that you don't need to always charge this move all the way, some of the lesser charges can still KO. If you condition your opponent to always be ready for a fully charged Rollout you can do some serious mindgames by using the other charges instead, just being patient and keeping your charge, or using it for intimidation purposes. You can charge Rollout for as long as you like. Example: Start charging Rollout randomly, and before they brace for a move they think comes out later, release it for a half charge and hit them earlier then expected. Example 2: Charge Rollout and keep the charge, watch your opponent panic as they put a misplaced smash or just hold their shield, laugh and release. If they hold their shield, you'll have to learn the right moment when to release; you want to hit them when they drop their shield or when it is small enough to be shield poked and this can vary from the player/character.
TL;DR It allows you to get an early kill from across the stage if you read your opponent correctly. Some Jiggly players would say Rollout is not a move worth using, because of how you can be punished for it or the start up, but that's because it's a punish move and not an approach move. It's like a devastating smash attack that has a godly lunge and can be charged even in the air.
I didn't realize that 34 frames of start-up is such a small number! I also like how you're assuming that the opponent will somehow be hit by one of the most telegraphed moves in the entire game.
Just to come back on this point.
Frame 34 is slow, but the move in itself is fast.
Not to mention that you attain 90% of rollout's speed with 50% of the charging time (let Jigg roll 2 times then release).
Not a trash move but not a godly move, good when your opponent thinks he's safe because he's far away.
I guess it's time to move on to the next move... Damn I don't have any time these days. Go onto fair since there is a lot to talk about it. I will update OP when I can.
I think we can all agree that fair is a really good move in Jigglypuffs moveset. It is one of the strongest fairs in the game and its fairly easy to hit with compared to Zelda and Falcon's fairs.
I'm going to give it a 9.5/10 because there is one more move that Jiggs has that is better than it and thats rest. And I think only one move should get the 10/10.
Jigglypuff's fair is good and all, but playing against good players you'll need a good trump card in order to win. For example, when mink was playing that falco where he was around 150% or something and the falco was at like 60%, fair was not an option in order to win this match, rest was.
Don't get me wrong fair is extremely useful and helps us win matches, but if you want to win those tougher matches which is what really counts, then rest will be needed. The only time I can see Fair being Jigglypuff's best move is when she is up against Heavyweights when rest won't kill them till like a higher % than fair will. But other than when facing heavyweights, Fair is Jigglypuff's 2nd best move.
Fair is pretty useful; it comes out moderately fast, has nice range, kills, and has a sex kick. Useful for approaches/spacing. With the weaker part of fair (sourspot, w/e) you can do a couple of combos. Fair is also good for gimping. It is a good kill move, but if you want to reliably kill with it you'll want avoid staling it; so trying to use it for both KOs and racking up damage isn't the best idea, especially since you can use the faster bair.
Not really much else to say without being redundant. It is possible to fair someone and they are sent flying in the opposite direction you were facing, if placed correctly.
I only like grabs and rest better. Pound is Iike my favorite move and is kinda equal to this 1 imo lol...
Grabs are, imo, jiggs her best which will get a 10 from me.
Anyways this is your killing move and a pretty good approach. Use this move before 50% and after 105%. It has a pretty good range and nice spacing potential.
I'm pretty sure u can use this attack to rack up damage till 50/70% its range and its spacing potential makes it work since you can approach with it and do some hit-and-run stuff with it. After the 50/70% you could use your pummels/dash-attack/bair/dair to unstall it. I always unstall my fair with grab-pummels it works great.
Great WoP potential.
Nice to chase with off-stage.
Gimp link lol.
Not really anything more to say..uhm..oh, predict airdodges with it off-stage and you basically took of a stock.
I think this is Puffs best move, by far. It's really good even when compared to higher tier characters moves. It's our best and safest move to use overall. The weak hit allows us to gimp and combo into another fair for an early kill after a WoP.
When tipped and retreating it's also kinda safe on shield, the best move to hit shields with Puff, if we don't count grabs
Unlike rest, this move is no gimmick, it's always there for you and it's always useful. It's so damn strong for a Puff move.
The only disadvantage is that stale moves really hurt it's effectiveness.
I think this is Puffs best move, by far. It's really good even when compared to higher tier characters moves. It's our best and safest move to use overall. The weak hit allows us to gimp and combo into another fair for an early kill after a WoP.
When tipped and retreating it's also kinda safe on shield, the best move to hit shields with Puff, if we don't count grabs
Unlike rest, this move is no gimmick, it's always there for you and it's always useful. It's so damn strong for a Puff move.
The only disadvantage is that stale moves really hurt it's effectiveness.
You see, its Drill to rest the combo that is a gimmick, rest itself is not. There are many times during a match when you are touching the opponent and are able to do rest so if you practice predicting when you'll touch your opponent rest will be anything but avoidable. Yes its easier said than done but if Jigglypuff were ever to be seen as a good character her metagame would be soley based on rest just like how it is in Melee.
I can see how people would disagree with me by saying fair is her best move, but by far? You've got to be kidding me.
![[FBC] Papa Mink](/data/avatars/l/166/166410.jpg?1363023093){kind=avatar}
And b-reversing it doesn't really change your momentum like some specials, Jpuff just turns the other way (what Jigglymaster said). However, an aerial Pound can be b-reversaled so that puff floats back and then pounds in the direction you were going.
