Mangos Falco Advice

[FoonZ]

just to clarify, we're talking about delayed falling nairs > FF > l-cancelled shines or are we talking rising nairs > FF > l-cancelled shines? From what I've seen mango do is the former, delaying the nair, and thats what it sounded like in his post. But from what After Dawn was speaking of, it seems like he's referring to rising nairs. o_o

 

[BluePeachy100]

Have you ever used, or considered using Laser cancels as a mindgame?

 

[GhettoSheep]

Mango

Are there any good ways to practice spacing

when im practicing in my room lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

just to clarify, we're talking about delayed falling nairs > FF > l-cancelled shines or are we talking rising nairs > FF > l-cancelled shines? From what I've seen mango do is the former, delaying the nair, and thats what it sounded like in his post. But from what After Dawn was speaking of, it seems like he's referring to rising nairs. o_o

No, I'm not referring to rising nairs. I'm referring to short hopping, waiting until you're about at the peak of your jump or a tad bit later, then doing a nair / dair and fastfalling into an L-cancel.

 

[FoonZ]

K, gotcha coach.

k this all sounds good, I thought I was the only person who messed up rising shffl's against shields lol.

That threw me off.

 

[MaNg0]

BluePeachy - Actually i have, i only do that against those power shielding f****** =D

Ghetto- hmmmm u can try putting a character on the screen and try fighting him without hitting him lol
space nairs and dairs and stuff in his face .. i do that like once every 3 months lol


and yea my post **** lol =D

 

[JPOBS]

When is a good time to use f-tilt?

like mogwai said always ftitlt. always.

i use it when i want to use fsmash, but fsmash wud come out too slow, and get me punished, which is like, always, so ya, always ftitlt.

 

[MaNg0]

o **** lol

Pitsbag- ftilt ... u usually just wanna f tilt when there camping the edge .. walk up 2 them and just f tilt .. if spaced theres nothing they can do and keeps u from gettting gimped =D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

mango, have you ever considered replying only in haiku?

you know, that 5-7-5 ****.

 

[MaNg0]

looooooooooooooool

thats 2 much work

but ill try it one day

 

[JPOBS]

how do you do the platform pew pew -> drop pew REALLY fast like chops does?

i read mogwais thread but i can already do all of those but when im watching chops vids he does this thing where he pew pews on the platforms and falls through really fast so theres no break in spam.

whenever i try, i either just crouch on the platform or fall through slower than he seems to be doing and its not as cool.

help me mango

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you have to isai drop it. that means you press forward then immediately down. you don't go through the crouching animation that way.

 

[JPOBS]

i end up running when i do that

guess its just practice.

 

[ArcNatural]

i end up running when i do that

guess its just practice.

Doing a moonwalk is essentially how you do the forward to down part. Except you don't need to fully dash forward. That's a easy way to understand the motion.

 

[JPOBS]

i literally can not moonwalk.
its just something i've come to accept, i've tried and tried to learn it but i just cant do it o_0

 

[JPOBS]

this is more of a general question than asking for advice

why dont more falcos counterpick gay stages? especially against the likes of marth, peach and jiggs?
im talking specifically about stages like green green, japes and RC, stages i myself and currently working on becoming really good at.
i kno some like corneria but corneria is meh for falco imo

i mean, if peach and jiggs can have auto wins and gay counterpicks, bout time some falcos

 

[Mogwai]

I would answer, but this is MaNg0's thread, so I'ma stop offering my unsolicited advice.

 

[JPOBS]

no mogwai, we <3 you! we can all help each other get better <3

besides, i dont see mango CP gay stages, even as jiggs, >_>

 

[pockyD]

mango's falco goes to corneria all the time

but usually the better player should try to stick to less gimmicky stages

 

[Zolios]

Is shine to waveland useful at all? Such as doing it on the platforms on YI and such.

 

[Mogwai]

no mogwai, we <3 you! we can all help each other get better <3

besides, i dont see mango CP gay stages, even as jiggs, >_>

na, I've got my own thread though, no need to hijack MaNg0's

Is shine to waveland useful at all? Such as doing it on the platforms on YI and such.

...but I will briefly say that sweet merciful jesus, yes, shine -> Waveland is hugely useful in comboing near platforms. It's basically free damage and frequently puts you in better position for a nice combo finishing move.

Watch Happy Feet 4 for inspiration.

 

[JPOBS]

^^ watch ANY new falco vids from shiz, zhu, mango, pretty mush ANYONE on youtube, it will all be clear why shine waveland is useful.

and whats this about the better player "should" do such and such? whatever gives you the best advantage, no reason to think you should be above using certain tactics.. :S

 

[wool]

^^ watch ANY new falco vids from shiz, zhu, mango, pretty mush ANYONE on youtube, it will all be clear why shine waveland is useful.

and whats this about the better player "should" do such and such? whatever gives you the best advantage, no reason to think you should be above using certain tactics.. :S

Well wave landing shine does work so I think you should do it lol.

 

[Mogwai]

The line of thinking that Pocky is talking about is:

if you're a better player, minimizing the random elements of the stage is most likely favorable as it minimizes the chance that you'll be put in a disadvantageous position due to a random element.

 

[pockyD]

because CP stages are generally cp stages because they introduce more random/unpredictable/"weird" elements, which theoretically increases the variance of the expected result... for example, I'm not sure that avoiding getting klaptrapped on japes or managing to always catch the barrel on KJ64 are things that can be more attributed to skill than dumb luck (though obviously there are tactics to increase the chance of landing the barrel)

If you are the better player, you want to minimize variance such that the fact that you're the better player is what carries you to victory, not hoping that a random claptrap kill swings the match in your favor when you could just as well be the victim

I doubt mango thinks of it the same way, but that's my take (the main point of my last post was just that mango does use corneria, a stage which doesn't have very intrusive randomish elements, frequently already)

 

[Mogwai]

how'd that work out for him vs. M2K in the crew battle btw?

BEAST COAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ahhhhh ****, <3 MaNg0

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i always thought the banned stages were the ones that added the "random/unpredictable/weird" elements, and the CP stages were simply more advantageous to certain characters or strategies.

 

[pockyD]

how'd that work out for him vs. M2K in the crew battle btw?

BEAST COAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ahhhhh ****, <3 MaNg0

case in point then!

i always thought the banned stages were the ones that added the "random/unpredictable/weird" elements, and the CP stages were simply more advantageous to certain characters or strategies.

don't tell me the distinguishing elements of mute city don't impact the game significantly more than those of fountain of dreams

 

[TresChikon]

Well everything has a certain amount of unpredictability, after all, it is Smash. Otherwise everything would be boring.

 

[pockyD]

right, and if you feel you're the noticeably better player, you should try and reduce unpredictability (since as the better player, you would win in a perfectly neutral environment)

 

[Rannskita]

because CP stages are generally cp stages because they introduce more random/unpredictable/"weird" elements, which theoretically increases the variance of the expected result... for example, I'm not sure that avoiding getting klaptrapped on japes or managing to always catch the barrel on KJ64 are things that can be more attributed to skill than dumb luck (though obviously there are tactics to increase the chance of landing the barrel)

If you are the better player, you want to minimize variance such that the fact that you're the better player is what carries you to victory, not hoping that a random claptrap kill swings the match in your favor when you could just as well be the victim

I doubt mango thinks of it the same way, but that's my take (the main point of my last post was just that mango does use corneria, a stage which doesn't have very intrusive randomish elements, frequently already)

true but as you say this is counterpicking we're talking about. obviously if it was a very even match before or you just got gayed on a cp like brinstar or mute, you'll probably wanna go neutral. but if you lost on one of your prefered stages for no real reason (aka you werent the better player and you lost), cping stages like rainbow cruise or jungle japes do give falco (in particular) and advantage over a lot of characters.

 

[pockyD]

right, but asking mango what to do as the person who "wasn't the better player" is rather pointless

 

[JPOBS]

ah i see what you're saying pocky, no allow me to elaborate on my train of thought.

CP are cp because as you said they have a wierd or random element, and as the better player, you probably want to stick to neutrals to minimize the chance of wierd elements interferrign with your expected win. But, if ou are the 'better" players, then you shouldnt even need to cp right? you should just 2-0 and 3-0 everyone. But if you ever do need to CP, its because you lost a match, possibly on a gay cp that your opponent has thrown out.

now, what im saying is, it is possible to have mastery of a stage such that you use it, not as simply a cp, but an auto win.

to illustrate, i'll use this scenario:

lets say you and your opponent are both arbitraily skilled on a scale of 1 - 10 and you are a 7 and your opponent is a 6.
first game on a neutral, you win (barely).
second game, your opponent cp a gay stage and because of this, his arbitray skill points rise from 6 to 8 because of the stage and yours stays the same, or even decreases possibly. you lose.
no, still speaking hypotheticaly with arbitray skill points, you have to CP for the 3rd game and you have two choices:
you could go to a neutral where in theory you have the advantage because you are slightly better, but he could still win. but what if you had a cp in your back pocket, a stage you're so comfortable on, it boosts your "betterness" than your opponent, to an almost unbeatable level. you go from a 7 to a 9, and your opponent either stays at a 6, or even decreases.

now, you could either fight on a nuetral at 7 vs 6, or 9 vs 6 if you have a strong counterpick, personally, i'd go with the latter.

I hope this example wasnt completely stupid and you guys are able to follow this. Thats just how i see the situation and obviously everyone has varying opinions.

in such a jaded game though, im looking for anything i can get over my opponents because everyone these days are really good and i've been been toying with the idea learning the gay stages and trying new things

 

[JPOBS]

i wasnt asking mango specifically lol, i was just opening up a topic of discussion that no one ever talks about or tries

 

[pockyD]

i understand that, but in that scenario, you aren't 'clearly the better player'

 

[JPOBS]

ok, you're talking about being the clearly better player.

i think its fairly obvious to everyone that if you are THAT much better than your opponent, not only would you want fox, on FD, no items ALL DAI, but you wouldnt even need to cp, period

 

[pockyD]

well it seems like you're forgetting that the so-called "neutrals" do still present advantages to certain characters, without needing to add "gay" elements

edit: to better explain, using your scenario

let's say on some imaginary perfectly neutral stage, you are a 7 and your opponent is a 6

now if you go to something like yoshi's story, you are an 8 while your opponent is a 6

however, if you go to something like jungle japes, instead of being a solid number, you are now something like a 7-9, while your opponent is a 5-7 (this is what i mean by variance); you've just introduced the 'chance' that you will be perfectly evenly matched (7-7) based purely on hard/impossible-to-control stage elements

if you feel 8-6 is a solid enough advantage, you take that and roll with it, instead of rolling the dice hoping to get a 9-5 when you could just as easily get a 7-7

note: these "numbers" are meaningless so i hope nobody reads too much into them (i.e. this post is directed specifically at 'JPOBS' since you defined the system and probably know what i mean when using the numbers; nobody else should try to 'interpret' what i'm saying here)

 

[chiZZLeSD]

i always thought the banned stages were the ones that added the "random/unpredictable/weird" elements, and the CP stages were simply more advantageous to certain characters or strategies.

i think youre thinking of how neutral stages affect character matchups. for example pokemon stadium helps fox because all of the stage changes favor his known moves/combos, etc. but in general, the cp stages (floats, brinstar, cruise, etc) present a random factor like moving around or acid that could affect the outcome of an otherwise neutral matchup. so pretty much, pocky and mogwai are right, because the better player would want to take out those random factors that could screw them over

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

don't tell me the distinguishing elements of mute city don't impact the game significantly more than those of fountain of dreams

thats why its a CP not neutral. i'm just saying CPs tend to be not as balanced (for example, mute city is a VERY bad sheik stage) not so much unpredictable. the only thing random on mute city is the cars, which isnt that random. you see the cars coming and both players jump on a platform or go to the side of the road. the stage movements are 100% predictable.

corneria is a good spacies stage because of the camping and the combos on the wall, as well as the small blastzone. the random shooting of lasers is insignificant.

 

[JPOBS]

true,

dreamland vs peach or jiggs -_-
yoshi's vs marth -_-


hah yoshis isnt even bad vs marth, this aint 05, i take everyone to yoshis hells yea <3