New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Johnknight1]

Don't try to be a leader Luco. You will be handed that title. Instead, try to be a Smash Wii U/3DS discussion GOD!!!

 

[Luco]

Oh ok then. *tries to be an awesomely epic god of info*

Op. Guys, my time is up. (darn library computers ) I'll see you later! Oh! And wish me luck this weekend on my upcoming tournament!^_^

Byyyyeeeeeeee!!! *waves*

 

[augustoflores]

dunno if this was shown here yet but i just caught wind of this new trailer for mokemon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8JvZ9NH-M

 

[---]

Pretty sure that no one will come to respect anyone from these speculation threads. Our opinions are no greater than anyone elses (unless we're somehow correct in the end).

The info thread is the only thing that could command respect from newbies and Smash fans alike.


I'm off. Later.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, translations of the latest Famitsu about the Best Wishes Season 2 state the following:

According to the summary on Famitsu, the gang along with the Shin'ō League Champion Shirona will head to eastern part of the Isshu region, which has many non-Isshu Pokémon populating it. They also encounter Hikari, one of Satoshi's previous traveling companion. Meloetta will later become Satoshi's friend and journey with them.

Cattleya, one of the members of Four Heavenly Kings of the Isshu region, will enter the World Tournament Junior Cup along with Shirona. The winner of the cup can battle Isshu League Champion Adeku.

Along with that, Satoshi will also have a new rival, and Sakaki will lead Rocket-dan in their 'biggest plot in history'.

Funny; they're taking their old idea of Celebi following them after being released from the GS Ball (before Celebi was to star in the 4th movie) and using Meloetta instead.

 

[ChronoBound]

I wonder if this does anything for Meloetta's chances. Keep in mind the anime (and the movies) has had a strong influence on much of the Pokemon than ended up being playable in Smash Bros.

 

[Deleted member]

With Meloetta being able to swtich between two forms, I can already tell that's something that would pique Sakurai's interest.

 

[Johnknight1]

Since when has Sakurai shown interest in Pokémon with multiple forms=??? None of the playable Pokémon thus far in smash have had multiple forms.

Pretty sure that no one will come to respect anyone from these speculation threads. Our opinions are no greater than anyone elses (unless we're somehow correct in the end).

The info thread is the only thing that could command respect from newbies and Smash fans alike.

I respected those people the most after years of lurking.

Plus, people listen to those older, wiser, and more experienced than them more often than not.

Edit: 7,000th post! w00t!!!

 

[Mypantisgone]

Since when has Sakurai shown interest in Pokémon with multiple forms=??? None of the playable Pokémon thus far in smash have had multiple forms.

I respected those people the most after years of lurking.

Plus, people listen to those older, wiser, and more experienced than them more often than not.

I think he means a switching pokemon/form,if that's what he means,then yes,the pokemon trainer is a switching pokemon character.


BY D4 W4Y W4SSUP GUISE

And a little useless question(cuz of boredom):how old is that forum?

 

[ssbowns]

Isn't Pokemon anime the most popular canonic media there is by a mile. I would be surprised if it wasn't the one and only place to draw Pokemon characters into Smash from. It would be suicidal to use the lesser known nobodies.

Anyway to use different categorizing we now have electricity, normal, fire, water, grass Pokemons atleast. Mewtwo would be psychic and Lucario is categorized fighting/steel but I don't really see it from his moveset. To me fighting pokemon means something like Machamp or Primeape throwing punches, kicks, moving all around and at best throwing a rock as a projectile. So I wish the next one is ground (with my limited knowledge I'd like Rhydon), ghost (Gengar), bug (Scyther), rock (Graveler), dragon (Dragonite)

 

[Berserker.]

[collapse=Toad]

SPECIALS

Neutral B : Question block

"Wondering what the question block holds?"

Toad pulls out a question block and *pop*.... A random item/effect/attack/projectile pops out. The block can either emit an ice ball, super leaf, statue leaf, penguin or occasionally... A starman. Each item has a certain effect and a certain use. It's advised NOT to stay very far from the opponent when using this move. Don't worry. The start up is lightning quick.

Reference : Toad is also known for giving out items in Mario games . Whenever you get into Toad houses, he presents you some random blocks/chests/etc.
[collapse=Items]Ice ball

The ice ball travels much slower and shorter than Mario's fireball however, it does 12% damage and does more hit stun.

Super leaf

The super leaf slowly falls to the ground while spinning. It travels forward while spinning in the air. It deals 3% damage per hit. Once it touches the ground, it disappears.

Statue leaf

The statue leaf pops up really high from the random block but has abysmal horizontal travel. It does a whooping 18% damage.

Penguin

The penguin does falls to the ground quickly and slides its way to the edge of the stage. It does 10% damage and it can knockdown the opponent regardless of the percent. It CANNOT kill.

Starman

The starman simply pops out from the ? block and bounces as it lands on the surface similar to the item itself. It DOES NOT make the character or Toad invincible. Instead, it deals 35% damage and has huge knockback. It's comparable to Peach's wrinkled (?) turnip. This item appears only 2% of the time.[/collapse]

Forward B : Toad rush

"WAHHH!!! Toads running in confusion!"

Toad quickly pulls out a golden mushroom and is boosted forward by the golden mushroom. On the ground, Toad simply runs extremely fast.

"Toad's looking scared.... At least he's durable (Not that he's heavy.. In fact, he's VERY light)!

In the air, Toad simply charges forward (Refer to the second picture above). While Toad is running/charging, he can do certain moves).

Reference : It's kinda hard to explain but whatever. It's based on his kart however, we wanted to avoid copying Wario's bike. Also, this seems faithful to the fact that Toad is very fast and cowardly.
[collapse=Ground moves]
Moving the control at the opposing direction - Turn

Toad turns backwards. Simple as that. Great for retreating (Duh).

Standard attack (A button) - Panic and fear!

Toad quickly waves his arms in front of him similar to Luigi's dash attack. It does 13% damage all in all (3%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 4%). It's safe on shield thus making it very good for on-shield pressure.

Reference : In Super Mario Galaxy 2, the toads start panicking due to the falling frozen lumas. They do the exact same animation as the picture above.

Jump button or tap jump - Acrobatic jump

"Jumping over a lot of things!"

Ignore the picture above. Just remember the consecutive 3-jump technique in NSMB Wii (The 3rd jump). Toad jumps acrobatically. The jump is extremely good for getting over a wave of projectiles. You can cancel jump into fall (Special button).

Reference : Mario bros. Wii. Enough said.

Grab button (Z) - Rushing grab

Toad rushes forward and grabs the opponent. His throws are the same as his default throws.

Reference : Toad is able to grab opponents in Super Mario Bros. 2, Wario Woods, New Super Mario Bros. Wii and several other Mario games

Special button (B) - Stop

Toad stops............................................. Yeah.........

Reference : Seriously?[/collapse]
[collapse=Air moves]Moving the control at the opposing direction - Change direction

Similar to moving Toad in the air.

Standard attack (A button) - Toad spins

Toad spins around! This attack deals 3% damage. It has high priority too. Toad spin enables Toad to slightly move horizontally similar to Mario and Luigi's tornado. It lasts significantly longer than the Mario Bros.' tornado spins.

Reference : In New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Toad is able to spin in mid air to make his fall slower.

Grab button (Z) - Air grab

Toad grabs the opponent in the air. His throws are the same as his default throws. In short, it's the same as grabbing in the air with Toad.

Reference : Toad is able to grab opponents in Super Mario Bros. 2, Wario Woods, New Super Mario Bros. Wii and several other Mario games

Special button (B) - Fall

Toad enters a falling state. Doing this will make Toad fall fast to the ground.

Reference : Seriously?[/collapse]
Upward special : Super squat jump

"Ready....."

"JUMP!!!!"

Toad crouches then jumps at an extremely high. The attack deals 10% damage. The hitbox only lingers while Toad rises. This is Toad's recovery (Of course). It has a decent vertical height but a slightly poor horizontal distance.

Reference : Toad is able to do the super squat jump like Mario, Luigi and Peach in Super Mario Bros. 2

Downward special : Mushroom spinners

"The 2 mushrooms are suppose to be far from Toad btw"

Toad summons 2 mushroom bumpers in front of him. At close range, it pushes the opponent way like a bumper, minus the hitstun (but there is some if you do it as a counter). It has some invincibility start up but it has enough recovery so that it's unsafe if baited, meaning someone could do a quick jump over and punish Toad. It damages 6%.

Reference : This is Toad's super in Mario Sports Mix.

-------------------------------------


NOTABLE STANDARD ATTACKS

Wait Toad, what's wrong!?

"You're head looks like it's gonna ex---"

"PLO---! Oh... It's just spores"

In his down smash, Toad's head starts "inflating" then he releases spores at his left and right. The attack has long reach and it's very quick however, the damage (11 - 17%) and knockback is weak.

Reference : Toad does this in Super Smash Bros.

Use your head, Toad!

Toad's forward smash is quick and powerful! It also boasts in priority and range (In comparison to Toad's short ranged moves). The recovery of the attack is punishable.

"Wait a minute... Toad can grab in the air? YES HE CAN!"

Toad has the ability to grab in the air. I don't mean that he has a special that enables him to grab in the air, I'm saying that he can do his upward/downward/backward/forward throw in the air! Toad's pummel is a weak headbutt that does 2% damage however, it's chargeable. If it's charged (2 seconds), his headbutt will be so strong, it will stun his opponent leaving the opponent open for a deadly attack. A fully charged headbutt pummel does 10% damage.

If you do his down throw in the air off the edge, you will get yourself killed.... Toadicide?



FINAL SMASH

Toad grabs the smash ball and calls out a mysterious fairy....

"Isn't that the fairy from WW? She spawns those bombs right--?? Uh oh...

BOMB RAIN!!!!!The fairy spawns a rain of bombs around the stage the bombs cannot be picked up and once they go in contact with any character excluding Toad... KABOOM! The bomb explodes and sends the opponent flying. The bombs deal 20% damage.

Reference : In Wario Woods, a fairy appears and spawns colored bombs for Toad.​

[/collapse]
[collapse=Playstyle (Competitive part)]Toad is a rushdown character. His attacks are quick and somewhat powerful but, they have short range. His projectiles are decent for zoning but it's actual and main use is to lock down his opponent so he can rush them down easily. Once he gets near the opponent, he will start pressuring and mixing up his opponent his array of safe and shield damaging attacks, feints and grabs. To be great with Toad, you must learn how to confuse and **** with the opponent's head.

If you choose to play Toad, you will have one of the deepest, most challenging characters to learn in the game. If you like annoying your opponent into submission, enjoy fast characters, and enjoy a good thinking challenge, Toad is the character for you. (Exact quote by Kuma). AND that's how me, Kuma and most of the Toad Brigade members visualize Toad in the competitive scene.[/collapse]

All of the specials and even some standard attacks have a reference. Also, the moveset is balanced in terms of Toad's representation.

One attack from Toad's role of being an item giver/shop keeper
One attack from his ability to manipulate spores
One attack from Super Mario Bros. 2
One attack from Suepr Smash Bros. (Minor tweak... VERY minor)
One attack from New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Excluding air grabbing)
One attack from Super Mario Galaxy (Based on)
One attack from Mario Kart (Based on)
Final smash being based on Wario's Woods

The rest being based on his superhuman strength and speed.

The moveset is also built to satisfy the beginners and the competitive players. Toad rush isn't near complicated. I mean.... You can't call this complicated when there are moves like Diddy's monkey flip, Samus' flip jump and more. Attacks like these will be deepened further in Smash 4 (Most likely) and I'm very sure that kids won't get finger cramps over clicking one button anyway. LOL.

REMEMBER, do not talk about how likely Toad. I'm not looking for that and I'm sure no one wants to talk about Toad because talking about Toad leads to some sort of random war between Toad vs X. We're all tired off that. I'm looking for the perfect moveset that would satisfy the competitive players, the beginners, anti-competitives, people who I will never understand as to why they judge a character as unique or not or generic or not, and the Toad fans.

 

[Oasis_S]

The fact that Sakurai thought Roy and Falco stood out more than Leaf and Wolf shows that aesthetic appearances do play a role in determining a place on the roster is also intriguing. I think that spells bad news for Zoroark and Krom (who bear a strong resemblance to Lucario and Ike).

Don't forget Waluigi, Paper Mario, and Bowser Jr.

 

[Aurane]

Hey, just to let ya'll know, I saw that new Pokemon Anime intro, and my god... I love Lucario more, now! That vid was too wicked for me... So, I main Lucario again, and my hope for his return is buffed.

I'm havin' a good day, now. How about ya'll?

 

[Pachinkosam]

John you how it's not even christmas with that avatar

 

[Aurane]

Since when has Sakurai shown interest in Pokémon with multiple forms=??? None of the playable Pokémon thus far in smash have had multiple forms.

You can't say that he hates them, either >.>

And Merry Rildimes to you, too.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, translations of the latest Famitsu about the Best Wishes Season 2 state the following:


Funny; they're taking their old idea of Celebi following them after being released from the GS Ball (before Celebi was to star in the 4th movie) and using Meloetta instead.

Nice to see that they may be wanting to make Meloetta a big part of the Pokemon universe for the 5th gen. I always was intrigued by the transformation aspect, which I can easily see Sakurai taking note of.

 

[Baskerville]

dunno if this was shown here yet but i just caught wind of this new trailer for mokemon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8JvZ9NH-M

That 4 minutes and 50 seconds is already better than the anime.

 

[Mypantisgone]

I like your toad moveset berseker,but not too much.
The sprite you use,it has good attacks too,you know,and you should keep some of them!
Peach has the vegies,so you can take it out,the neutral is kept somewhere,good!
Block thing is special but the objects should be weapons,they can't all be represented enough in the way you are doing it right now,maybe like diddy's banana thing(special summoning weapons).
Squat jump,nah,i think kuma said that all characters should have it as a special technique.
Rush,mmm...doesn't look like a special,even tho it represent how cowardly he is,but that is like giving sonic a random attack to represent how fast he is,make him look like a coward in some of his normals and simple animation.

I don't know about the final,but it better be pretty important,it's a final.But the overall isn't bad.

Speaking of weapon summoning attacks,peach should summon a weapon a little more often.

 

[Xhampi]

Do you people think Kyurem have a chance to be the 5th generation representation in SSB4 ?

 

[Mypantisgone]

Do you people think Kyurem have a chance to be the 5th generation representation in SSB4 ?

Not as a playable

 

[Xhampi]

Not as a playable

Hmm Reasons please ?

 

[Mypantisgone]

Hmm Reasons please ?

A such legendary should be like,a pokeball with an ultimate attack.
A playable gives him a too tiny role/he is too "important" to be a playable.
It seems weird to palkia,dialga,reshiram,zekrom,ect.,to be playable,to me,it's the same for kyurem.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

That 4 minutes and 50 seconds is already better than the anime.

I CAN'T LIKE

*Spaz attack*

Just freeze the damn anime already, this looks like beyond awesome.

 

[Xhampi]

A such legendary should be like,a pokeball with an ultimate attack.
A playable gives him a too tiny role/he is too "important" to be a playable.
It seems weird to palkia,dialga,reshiram,zekrom,ect.,to be playable,to me,it's the same for kyurem.

-Isn't this like saying Mewtwo should have been a pokeball pokemon =/
-Being playable is for no important character then ?
-Don't really comprehend this one, if you talk about the pokemons who are on the games cover, that didn't stop charizard and pikachu (and both blastoise and venusaur pre-evolutions) to be playable.

Oh and they should indeed make two pokemon series :
- The one with Ash who is more comic, who don't really focus on the story , for kids.
- The one with the hero's games who is more about action and focus more on the games story, for the teenagers.

 

[Dynamite]

I've been lurking here off and on for a while now, I guess I'll start posting here again. Here's my Sm4sh roster. * Means in order to unlock, you have to transfer them from the 3DS Smash or if you don't like that idea, they can be dlc.

Mario
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bower Jr./Shadow Mario
Dr. Mario*

DK
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Dixie Kong
King. K Rool

The Legend of Zelda
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Impa
Toon Link
Toon Zelda/Tetra*

Metroid
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Ridley

Yoshi
Yoshi

Kirby
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Star Fox
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

Pokemon
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer (Kanto starters)
Lucario
Jigglypuff*
Mewtwo
Zoroark

F-Zero
Captain Falcon

Mother
Ness
Lucas

Fire Emblem
Marth
Roy
Ike
Chrome (Is that how you spell it?)

Kid Icarus
Pit
Palutena

Wario Ware
Wario

Pikmin
Olimar

Punch Out!
Little Mac

Sin and Punishment
Saki

Golden Sun
Issac

Dillon's Rolling Western
Dillon

Legendary Starfy
Starfy

Animal Crossing
Animal Crosser

Retro
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Balloon Fighter
Mr. Game and Watch

Third Party
Snake
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-Man*

I counted 57 characters but not including tranformations. I gave Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon six slots because in Brawl, they were suppose to have five slots. So them having six slots in sm4sh isn't all that far-fetched imo. This roster is probably over the top for some of ya but since this is the last smash I'm getting, I don't mind having this many characters. It I had to cut some, I would cut: Pac-Man, Chrome, Zoroark, Impa, and Dr. Mario. That makes it 52 characters including tranformations. Thoughts?

 

[Zap tackle]

That's a neat moveset for Toad, Berserker. The fact that this moveset does reflect off Toad's own characteristics and the various moves/abilities he used in the series makes it rather exclusive to the character, and that's always a nice touch to see for the characters in Smash Bros.. One thing I always loved in the Smash Bros. series is how most characters seem to have very fitting movesets, and this one seems rather nice for Toad.

The Toad Rush was a tad bit confusing at first; however, I do see the potential that you are showing with this move. It is a unique though I am starting to warm up to it each time I attempt to envision the move in Smash Bros.. Nice work, overall!

 

[SmashChu]

I love to hear myself type, so I guess I'll go though this.

It was decided early on to separate the newcomers into two even groups for balance reasons: fan favorites (as determined by a survey) and unique, unexpected characters.

I'm not sure if he did this is Brawl, but it is interesting nonetheless. It does show that Sakurai does like to mix up the roster. Well, I guess that is what ZSS, Pokemon Trainer and ROB were. I will say that all of those were suggested in some form by normal folks, so I wwonder if any of you have though of the next unexpected character

Spoiler

Not Duck Hunt Dog

Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, and Marth were culled from the fan survey.

Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch made up the other group.
Just in case Sakurai couldn't get approval to use Marth from Intelligent Systems, he had some King Dedede concepts ready as a backup.

Highlighting Zelda because it shows that Sakurai does not go by votes alone. Zelda did OK on the poll I remember, but not like some of the others.

Wario placed third in the poll, but with Bowser and Peach pencilled in, Sakurai didn't want to include 3 Mario newcomers.

Pretty much, Sakurai doesn't like to bloat series. Very easy to do with Mario and Pokemon (hint hint).

Sakurai considered adding a character from Pokémon Gold/Silver during planning, but none of the popular options were feasible.

Reminds me of the 3rd gen. We talk a lot about the 5th gen rep and now even a 6th gen rep, but it's not that simple. Basically, Sakurai considers if the character would be interesting first. It's not a sure thing.

He thought about having a trainer summon the second generation starters, but there wasn't time/resources for such a labor-intensive character.

Interesting that he thought of Pokemon Trainer so long ago. Makes you wonder if he has a Smash master plan.

There are two things of interest here. First, it's that Sakurai never really forgets. It may mean cut characters of Brawl are newcomers for the next game. We knew this, bit this shows us it was true from Melee to Brawl as well. The other thing of interest was that Pokemon Trainer was an intensive character. Really means that they can create a lot of characters with Brawl having 15 characters, one of which was 3 characters. Really an arrow against the naysayer who thing they'll only have a few new characters (like Mr. 9)

Pichu was promoted as the main Pokémon from those games, but it would have been too similar to Pikachu, so Sakurai passed on it.
Thinking back to Pichu is partly what made Sakurai want to include clones.

This really means no Ninten. More background on adding in the clones. Pichu did make sense since he still is, today, a highly promoted Pokemon.

Clones were not included in Melee's planning documents.

Not surprising. We knew this for a while.

Sakurai had a hard time deciding on all of the clones, though some choices came easy like Pichu and Young Link.

Pretty self explanatory.

Sakurai says that he probably could have finished Dedede in the time it took to make the 6 clones, but he's glad he was able to beef the roster up a bit.

It tells us that Dedede was planned for the game. For those who don't know, Melee was suppose to have just 20 characters, but somewhere down the line, they wanted to add more. I and some others though Dedede was going to be in Melee, but this confirms it. Took them long enough to add him. It's also true that Sakurai puts other's characters before his own.

Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better.

One of the most interesting things here. Wario was to be a Mario clone. It makes sense since they are similar anyway. Also go along with them basing Wario off of Warioware. It seems they wanted him to stand out. It also shows Wario was under their radar. I wonder who was under the radar for Brawl......

Dr. Mario made sense for a few reasons: he's from a critically-acclaimed retro game, the team wanted to include his music, and because a doctor would probably be on hand at an event as violent as Smash Bros.

People poo poo Dr. Mario, but here it says why he made sense if they were adding clone. Last part is kind of funny.

Wolf was considered as Fox's clone, but with shared animations Sakurai felt he would just be perceived as a gray-colored Fox, so he went with Falco for his drastically different appearance and excellent jumping capabilities.

Seems Sakurai cares for characters being unique. Which is funny because I hear people talk about making characters unique. It seems Sakurai really looks at a characters abilities and looks. He mentioned this at GDC 08, but it's shown in action here. Also, Wolf did make it into Brawl, so I wonder if this is related at all.

Leaf was considered as Marth's clone, but when Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems for approval they gave him an early look at the GBA Fire Emblem, and he agreed that Roy would be a better fit. Sakurai mentions his fire properties as making him stand out.

Interestingly, Leaf was considered. I wonder if they would bring him back up again, or did they only consider him because he was the most recent/they were making clones. One thing of interest is Ike and Roy came about in about the same way. Sakurai wanted an FE character an went right to the source. For you guys out there, it means his desire to add Krom is probably based on his desire for an FE character. So it's the question of does he want one. And, again, big this is uniqueness. He really made that a focus with the clones.

Ganondorf was the last character added to the game. He was only included because he was popular, had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, and because Sakurai couldn't really think of any additional plausible clones.

What I'm curious about is that did Sakurai not have big ideas for this guy? He mentioned Wario deserved better, but Ganondorf does? This is something else. Make he could never think of what Ganondorf should do.

Now, a disclaimer, Ganondorf didn't have a sword until Wind Waker. He had a sword from the promotional trailer for the Gamecube, but never in game.

And that's it. I do think this is the real deal since it sounds like what Sakurai does and isn't too far fetched. Of course, if anyone wants to confirm it, look though Famitsu 2002.

 

[Arcadenik]

A guy from Neogaf posted this, he say's its from a 2002 issue of Famitsu.

From Cednym http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37915502&postcount=7506

I can't remember if I posted this on NeoGAF, and it isn't really 100% on topic, but I made bullet points of the old 2002 Famitsu translations I found on my old computer pertaining to Melee. There's some good insight in here, I think. It's interesting that a lot of these concepts ended up making it into Brawl.

It was decided early on to separate the newcomers into two even groups for balance reasons: fan favorites (as determined by a survey) and unique, unexpected characters.
Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, and Marth were culled from the fan survey.
Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch made up the other group.
Just in case Sakurai couldn't get approval to use Marth from Intelligent Systems, he had some King Dedede concepts ready as a backup.
Wario placed third in the poll, but with Bowser and Peach pencilled in, Sakurai didn't want to include 3 Mario newcomers.
Sakurai considered adding a character from Pokémon Gold/Silver during planning, but none of the popular options were feasible.
He thought about having a trainer summon the second generation starters, but there wasn't time/resources for such a labor-intensive character.
Pichu was promoted as the main Pokémon from those games, but it would have been too similar to Pikachu, so Sakurai passed on it.
Thinking back to Pichu is partly what made Sakurai want to include clones.
Clones were not included in Melee's planning documents.
Sakurai had a hard time deciding on all of the clones, though some choices came easy like Pichu and Young Link.
Sakurai says that he probably could have finished Dedede in the time it took to make the 6 clones, but he's glad he was able to beef the roster up a bit.
Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better.
Dr. Mario made sense for a few reasons: he's from a critically-acclaimed retro game, the team wanted to include his music, and because a doctor would probably be on hand at an event as violent as Smash Bros.
Wolf was considered as Fox's clone, but with shared animations Sakurai felt he would just be perceived as a gray-colored Fox, so he went with Falco for his drastically different appearance and excellent jumping capabilities.
Leaf was considered as Marth's clone, but when Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems for approval they gave him an early look at the GBA Fire Emblem, and he agreed that Roy would be a better fit. Sakurai mentions his fire properties as making him stand out.
Ganondorf was the last character added to the game. He was only included because he was popular, had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, and because Sakurai couldn't really think of any additional plausible clones.

Pretty interesting, some of these things i've never known before. Anyone remember this stuff from Famitsu way back when to validate some of it?

@ the red part

Well, there you have it. Let's look at the Brawl newcomers.

Expected/Popular Characters
- Diddy Kong
- Ike
- King Dedede
- Lucario
- Meta Knight
- Sonic
- Toon Link
- Wario

Unexpected/Obscure Characters
- Lucas
- Olimar
- Pit
- Pokemon Trainer
- R.O.B.
- Snake
- Wolf
- Zero Suit Samus

Now that's balance! Sakurai didn't want to add just the overrated choices or make the most conservative boring roster. Here's my SSB4 newcomers:

Expected/Popular Characters
- King K. Rool
- Krom
- Little Mac
- Mega Man
- Mii
- Palutena
- Ridley
- Toad
- Zoroark

Unexpected/Obscure Characters
- Dixie & Kiddy
- Duck Hunt Dog
- King Hippo
- Masked Link (plays as Deku Link, Goron Link, and Zora Link but not as Young Link)
- Medusa
- Shulk (I would rather have Starfy but he's owned by TOSE)
- Takamaru
- Team Rocket team and team
- Tingle

@ the yellow part

Well, now we know why those 8 characters were not the clones. They were planned to be in Melee while the 6 clones were never planned to be in Melee in the first place.

@ the green part

Basically the time it takes to make one unique original non-clone character from scratch is almost as long as it takes to make six late addition clone characters.

So, in Melee it was either King Dedede OR Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, and Roy.

And in Brawl, it was either Sonic OR Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo (I know he is not a clone, don't nitpick), Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, and Plusle & Minun.

 

[Zap tackle]

Quite interesting to see that Ganondorf was the final character added in Melee. Though I do wonder as to why Sakurai didn't bother to change some of Ganon's moves in Brawl (he does play more differently, but still...).

Seeing how Sakurai made some of these selections does make me curious as to what he will do in terms of the newcomers for this game as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

Reminds me of the 3rd gen. We talk a lot about the 5th gen rep and now even a 6th gen rep, but it's not that simple. Basically, Sakurai considers if the character would be interesting first. It's not a sure thing.

Don't forget adaptable. The above reason and that are why I don't expect Pacman.

Interesting that he thought of Pokemon Trainer so long ago. Makes you wonder if he has a Smash master plan.

I doubt it. Although, Melee and Brawl were subject to time constraints (and questionable priorities in Brawl) so it'd be neat to see what would be planned if he's given more time, resources, and better prioritization.

One of the most interesting things here. Wario was to be a Mario clone. It makes sense since they are similar anyway. Also go along with them basing Wario off of Warioware. It seems they wanted him to stand out. It also shows Wario was under their radar. I wonder who was under the radar for Brawl......

It's still disappointing to see that there were very few references to his Wario Land games.

Interestingly, Leaf was considered. I wonder if they would bring him back up again, or did they only consider him because he was the most recent/they were making clones. One thing of interest is Ike and Roy came about in about the same way. Sakurai wanted an FE character an went right to the source. For you guys out there, it means his desire to add Krom is probably based on his desire for an FE character. So it's the question of does he want one. And, again, big this is uniqueness. He really made that a focus with the clones.

Leaf was the protagonist of Fire Emblem 2.

What I'm curious about is that did Sakurai not have big ideas for this guy? He mentioned Wario deserved better, but Ganondorf does? This is something else. Make he could never think of what Ganondorf should do.

Now, a disclaimer, Ganondorf didn't have a sword until Wind Waker. He had a sword from the promotional trailer for the Gamecube, but never in game.

Honestly, considering Ganondorf (not Ganon) debuted in OoT, the only thing he had going for him that stood out was (ugh) energy ball tennis and a seismo wave. Everything would've been made up. For such an iconic character, that seems kind of a let down.

Also, I found something that might lead to some insight as to why Ganondorf didn't get the revamp everyone wanted:

Users: Please give Chun-Li her Tenshokyaku back.
Ayano: Consider the amount of adjusting we would have to do if new moves were introduced.

Of course, this is talking about a different game, but I think this holds for Brawl since it was time constrained. The effort going into adding moves/replacing them is probably more than we think, especially with 17 newcomers introduced in Brawl.

That being said, I still want to see Ganondorf's fighting style based on his Wind Waker incarnation. Favorite Zelda boss fight and has the most potential.

@Arc
Be careful to not read too much into it. That being said, this does support the argument for "lesser" characters with much potential. IMO, I'd like the newcomers to be like this:

[COLLAPSE="Newcomers"]
Highly Demanded:
Isaac
Saki
Palutena
Krystal
Ridley
Little Mac
K. Rool
Dixie

Wild Cards:
Kumatora
Meowth
Duck Hunt Dog
Toad
Lip
Tom Nook
Takamaru
Medusa[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Arcadenik]

Chun-Li's Tensowhatever... reminds me of Melee Ganondorf's Smash Up+A move. I liked that move better than Brawl Ganondorf's Smash Up+A move.

 

[Dynamite]

@KumaOso Kumatora and Meowth would be awesome. Honestly, I prefer Meowth over Zoroark but do to B/W, I think Sakurai will choose Zoroark so there can be a Gen. 5 rep.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like for a 53 character roster to be like this:

All Brawl vets return:

Popular/Expected
- Toad
- King K. Rool
- Krystal
- Mewtwo
- Roy
- Palutena
- Isaac
- Mega Man

Uniqueness/WTF?
- Paper Mario
- Ghirahim
- Takamaru
- Duck Hunt Dog
- Saki Amamiya
- Mii

 

[Big-Cat]

Chun-Li's Tensowhatever... reminds me of Melee Ganondorf's Smash Up+A move. I liked that move better than Brawl Ganondorf's Smash Up+A move.

Her Lightning Kicks move reminds me of Fox's AAA.

@KumaOso Kumatora and Meowth would be awesome. Honestly, I prefer Meowth over Zoroark but do to B/W, I think Sakurai will choose Zoroark so there can be a Gen. 5 rep.

There doesn't need to be a 5th gen character though. Besides, the 1st gen is still by far the most popular generation (gameplay's another story). All the other generations are represented by Pokeballs.

And how do you envision Kumatora?

 

[Arcadenik]

@KumaOso Kumatora and Meowth would be awesome. Honestly, I prefer Meowth over Zoroark but do to B/W, I think Sakurai will choose Zoroark so there can be a Gen. 5 rep.

Me too. I don't really care for 5th gen but Sakurai gotta throw the 5th gen fans a bone. Where's my 3rd gen bone?

I have been posting on Sakurai's Twitter asking for Meowth and Team Rocket with Meowth/Arbok team and Meowth/Weezing team, hoping to grab Sakurai's attention and he would somehow stop and think "Wow! That sounds really interesting. I might want to implement this into my game." I don't really want Team Rocket that badly but if it makes Meowth more interesting in Sakurai's eyes, then I will support the Team Rocket idea. I just want to play as Meowth in Smash... just one Smash game is all I am asking.

 

[Big-Cat]

If Mewoth gets in, I'm putting this on the appropriate Pokemon stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kia1ZLIM9Gg&feature=relmfu

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Do you people think Kyurem have a chance to be the 5th generation representation in SSB4 ?

I have it positioned as a boss, especially when you take into account its alternate forms.

 

[Deleted member]

Kyurem should be a badass boss, being as badass as it is in the upcoming movie.
"Come and get me."
"Do you really think you can defeat me?"

 

[Arcadenik]

I would love Meowth's Party as a stage. Even though it's a canceled game, it still lived on in Pokemon Channel. So, technically it isn't like a made-up stage like Poke Floats or Battlefield. It would be a nice change from the same old Pokemon Stadium stages we have been getting in Melee and Brawl.

I think it's kinda silly that we have had only two stages from the main Pokemon games. Saffron City from Red/Blue and Spear Pillar from Diamond/Pearl. Pokemon Stadiums are likely based on the Pokemon Stadium games. Can we cut both Pokemon Stadiums and just put one Pokemon Colosseum with 17 types?

Pokemon Stages I would like to see in Smash 4:
- Spear Pillar (past stage)
- Meowth's Party
- Pokemon Colosseum
- some location from Black/White, maybe Castelia City as the new Saffron City?
- some location from HeartGold/SoulSilver, maybe Lake of Rage where we fight on top of a giant red Gyarados as it flies through the sky, showing various Johto locations like Whirl Islands, Sprout Tower, Ruins of Alph, etc.

 

[Big-Cat]

Tell me this, Arc. What would Meowth's Party be layed out like?