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Sadly, this is true.People tend to look towards results when they are desperate to escape the truth of what match-ups and tool-analysis tell them.
:green:
I'm saying that if your character has a good air game it counts for a lot. A good ground game counts for less unless the ground game offers a lot of stage control.what does this even mean or imply...
why would you tech it if you don't have to get hit by the whole thing? you're like a sonic player that snickers when people don't tech dthrow, despite it not always granting positional advantageSeriously? You too?
It's amazing how many people still don't realize you can just tech the dair and be completely safe.
PLUS you'll be BELOW lucas ready to juggle him instead of the other way around.
Maaaaaagical.
Also Lucas' zair is not that safe. it's stupid easy to hit the snake before lucas pulls up to the ledge.
Me too, sista. Me too.i know its quite annoying ive considered blocking him
i dont agree.... at all. i honestly think you think that just from maining a character with crap ground game XDI'm saying that if your character has a good air game it counts for a lot. A good ground game counts for less unless the ground game offers a lot of stage control.
Ground-oriented characters aren't typically as good, unless they're campers like Snake, Diddy, or Falco. Even ICs have tapered off a lot, even though I guess you could say they have an OK air game. Strictly speaking, high tier characters offer a lot of air control. I'm sure there's an example I'm not thinking of right now that doesn't follow this argument but for the most part I think I'm right.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLThis guy isn't.
:green:
The loss of the rankings thread. There used to a tier list and a tournament results thread, but now some seem to have problems seperating these from each other.Alright fine.
~
To another point not directed at anyone.
People seem to thing results should matter more than tools & match-ups.
Like if people want to do it weighted ok results can have some impact, but saying they are almost exclusively as important.
My question, why?
If you hit Lucas's Rope Snake as soon as it tethers the edge, it counts as you hitting Lucas.wait you can hit the snake or you can hit lucas? if so why dont mks just dtilt the snake. im so mad LOL
LOL@people from MD/VA saying lucas is better
LOL@people from FL saying ness is better.
LOL@ Shaky and Pinkfresh
lol... ok.Lucas is better than ness because he does better vs wolf.
This was hilarious.Hey, Nestec, I speak the truth, and only the truth. Chuee, you're just passing kidney stones right now or something. Way too salty to admit I'm right.
People tend to look towards results when they are desperate to escape the truth of what match-ups and tool-analysis tell them.
:green:
Lucas' rope snake counts as being part of Lucas' hurtbox so when he uses it, hitting the snake hits Lucas.
And people tend to ignore the results when they are desperate to not admit that their previous thoughts about a character's MUs and moveset don't match up with the results. (Obvious example most people know: Inui and Ike)People tend to look towards results when they are desperate to escape the truth of what match-ups and tool-analysis tell them.
:green:
Ok so what your saying is it is easy to prove, therfore is a fact, and not theorycraft anymore. Kinda what i was saying before also but you just discredit the people who play ness to not know what his good stages are. Thats like me telling Mk's that they are stupid for going to RC, because Delfino is clearly his best stage.Or you could take like 30 seconds to easily link to a video to prove your claims. Instead you complain about someone doing the same thing you are.
Fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svz6rkvxcWk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3S_GCKpzAM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSG2JZHnA6U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar4AVMj-7F0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyzRoky4f0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH9HMXaKoaM&feature=related
yes that is EXACTLY what i said.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth, and showing why responding to you is pointless.
I give you an intelligent response and you go "hurrdurr ur dum".
You didn't say it, you heavily implied it, that is why i asked it in a question
You're still evading my point completely. The hypocrisy continues.
By the way, I kinda did reply.
Yes telling me that "The rest of your post is just ad hominem filled sillyness so I won't bother responding." is a great reply to my point, hypocrite.
reposting so I can get a legitimate response ... maybe?
i dont really see anything that changedI used to be a guy who came to the forums arguing match-up numbers and stuff really hard because I thought that people didn't think my character was good because she had bad match-ups or something. As it turns out no one really cared what her match-ups were, she was thought to be bad because she had spotty results and as those became better peoples' opinion of her became better. I realize how stupid I was. I used to be you, and then I realized that the only thing worth talking about is how strong your character is in the current metagame. Nothing else really matters, because what matters isn't discussions on the forums but people who play the game.
there is a lot of potential for this.....the best lucas is still Ravenlord btw
dadadada
No, results just prove terrible theorycraft wrong.People tend to look towards results when they are desperate to escape the truth of what match-ups and tool-analysis tell them.
:green:
You make it sound as if I think the tier list is based solely on tournament results.I should have just let some of the guys above me reespond to infinite. They would've gotten the point across much better. And da.Kid, where did you get those assumptions from, like Yaay said, I just think the people who worship tournament results in a tier list are just there because the tounrament rankings thread is down. Theyy arn't smater or better at the game or anything just because they value tournament results over theorycraft. When the Tournie Ranking thread was still on, most people would just say, "this is a tier list, not the tounrament rankings thread, that's over here *post link*". Now that it's down, people think that it should be mergeed or something into the tier list.
People need to start acknowledging the fact that tool analysis, matchups, stage selection and the like play a HUGE part in results. It's only logical that the people who place better in tournaments understand better these important aspects of the metagame. I'd be a fool to think that people like M2K, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, Atomsk, Anti, Nick Riddle, Rich Brown and the dozens (or even hundreds) of other top-placing Brawlers don't know much about MUs, stages, tool analysis and Brawl theory in general.I've never seen tournament results matter that much in a tier list. I think tool analysis and matchups matter way more than tournament results, and I'm not flat -out worse at the game because of that.
Yoshi is better than Mario even on paper btw. He's like mid tier as far as MUs go(about 23rd or so, I remember he was tied with/right below Sheik). Mario would be better as well but he would be like mid-low, but still below Yoshi. Fox would be low tier lol.No, results just prove terrible theorycraft wrong.
TBH a character could have 60:40's across the board, but if that character is still outperforming those considered better, the first thing I'm going to think is that your analysis is wrong or outdated. Our analysis are opinions, not fact.
Tool analysis doesn't mean much either...because if you're going to claim that X is better than 14 characters or something, I'm assuming you know all those 14 characters just as well as X. And besides, how are you going to prove that X's tools are better? You just know?
With this on paper system, I could say (for example of course) Mario is better than we think , and all of our MUs are outdated and wrong, and he's really bottom of middle tier because of his solid tools (in other words, better than Yoshi and all other low tiers). What's the first thing you're going to say to prove that Yoshi deserves that spot more than Mario? Keep in mind that opinions of Yoshi's MUs and tools are just the yoshis' words against the marios'. So what's indisputable and can help settle this?
Yeah, that's right, Yoshi's results. Unlike MU ratios and tool opinions, you can't argue that whether or not Yoshi is doing better than Mario. It's clear as day
If you're going to put one character above another based on your opinion of their tools, you should know everything about the character you think is worse too (and you thinking their tools suck is still opinion as well, until you back it up)
I think Ryu's right when we've got differences in rep and all that, but putting results on a lesser pedastal is wrong IMO. Results back up pretty much anything you say regarding a character's viablity, which are, again, opinions until you prove it. 100% results may not be the way to go, but 50/50 between opinion and fact is iffy to me.
ZSS is ok. Objectively she's just barely good enough to scrape by the bottom of high tier. I don't think she works as a mid tier character because there's pretty much always one or two people getting high tier-ish results. NR's results are more indicative of a top tier character, not a high tier one.i dont really see anything that changed
you still talk about ZSS like she's good
only person to not suck with her in the past 3958208532 years is NR because he's extremely smart, and the better you are the better you are at avoiding your characters weaknesses.
What if the Marios disagreed? Your word vs. theirs. And I'm assuming you know everything Mario can do too, right?Yoshi is better than Mario even on paper btw. He's like mid tier as far as MUs go(about 23rd or so, I remember he was tied with/right below Sheik). Mario would be better as well but he would be like mid-low, but still below Yoshi. Fox would be low tier lol.
Yoshi doesn't beat ICs. Yoshi goes even with Wario, Snake, Oli, and potentially Diddy, although it's probably a disadvantage.Yoshi has far better MU's than the Low Tiers. Even better than some Mid Tiers. His worst MU is probably lucario which isn't even a hard counter and is still very winnable. Yoshi even does pretty good against top characters, beating ICies and Wario and going close to even with Diddy, Snake, and Oli.
Yeah he does, ask pretty much any other Yoshi main >.>Yoshi doesn't beat ICs. Yoshi goes even with Wario, Snake, Oli, and potentially Diddy, although it's probably a disadvantage.
Lucario ***** Yoshi.