TresChikon
Smash Lord
Lets talk about Bowser being top 3, I like where that's going.
Must find thread.
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- Status
Virusbluemage
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 658
A Ganon places 3rd at rom2 and 5th at Winterfest!! Why does anyone still call him mid-tier? That is so ********.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Sheik.
10horribleMU's
10horribleMU's
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
probably because he is mid tier. Idk care if m2 wins pound 4, at most he is still gonna be low tier.
Apparently warriors are just inherently good at smash.
Little England
Smash Master
I've always thought a tier list reflected the rankings of the characters in a perfect world. (i.e. If the Fox can DI behind when he gets upthrowed there is no such thing as uthrow > rest) I understand now that that is much less productive and the function of a tier list is lost; but that could just be a matter of opinion.
My question to you is, do you think a tier list should reflect all of the characters rankings in a perfect world or according to human ability? I don't think everyone is on the same page in this respect.
My question to you is, do you think a tier list should reflect all of the characters rankings in a perfect world or according to human ability? I don't think everyone is on the same page in this respect.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
A Samus can take top spots at regionals and sometimes even nationals; at Active Gamers or w/e a couple months ago, a Samus took 2nd place. Docs have won Cali regionals before. Does this mean they should be high tier? No.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
It has been discussed multiple times with no definite outcome, since everyone just throws out their opinions of what it should be and that's that. A chart based on a perfect world is good, but it is hard to draw a line. Ex. Bowser becomes top tier due to ledgestalling. A chart based on not perfect characters, but instead the top players of each character's metagame is more realistic but much harder to do since tournament results constantly change, upsets happen and people lose.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
if you have seen perfect control peach can poweersheild everything and in theory so can you, but can any power sheild everything? Goes to the gerenal idea of playing better than people really play
pretty amazing tier list >.>, you can make an argument for certain listings such as peach swapping for jigglypuff (even though they would still be in the same tier range so it doesn't matter too much).
X1-12
Smash Champion
I'm not sure about some of the positions within the tier but otherwise i think its pretty much right, maybe swap DK and G&W though
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
I think dk should be much lower too but I don't know much about him but I know for a fact G&W isn't that good.
Also I felt jigglypuff should a higher than peach for the fact puff can do better vs the top tier and the fact some people were nuts and kept posting jigglypuff in top tier which I disargee with. she isn't that great.
I somewhat want to lower ice climbers but they are still pretty good and gannondorf isn't immue to grabs, amazing movement, near broken grab game, fast, powerful, disjointed, % building smashes, they are better at dealing with some types of camping.
both are deadly by the touch, but gannondorf isn't as fast so yeah.
Also I felt jigglypuff should a higher than peach for the fact puff can do better vs the top tier and the fact some people were nuts and kept posting jigglypuff in top tier which I disargee with. she isn't that great.
I somewhat want to lower ice climbers but they are still pretty good and gannondorf isn't immue to grabs, amazing movement, near broken grab game, fast, powerful, disjointed, % building smashes, they are better at dealing with some types of camping.
both are deadly by the touch, but gannondorf isn't as fast so yeah.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
G W is not better than dk. He is too light and has too poor of a shield. While he can combo a bit, mainly on ff
but he has nothing close to dks zero to deaths from grabs.
He doesnt have the setups to deal with alot of floaties
but he has nothing close to dks zero to deaths from grabs.
He doesnt have the setups to deal with alot of floaties
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
^This.
It just means that the ppl they played were near horrible or not high ranked players.
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
I don't think I've ever seen you post anything correct, useful, or helpful.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
just in case you didnt understand
ihsb is telling you that what you just said is a load of crap
ps I agree
ihsb is telling you that what you just said is a load of crap
ps I agree
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
No.
It just restates the obvious. Player skill > Character choice.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
eh, thats debatable. There are some arbitrary calculations that have to be made.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Only in top and high tiers and if your a warrior then mid tier
X1-12
Smash Champion
what about taj and mewtwo?
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
I'm fairly certain Taj or any other low tier main hasn't won a national or even big regional tournament, in years, if ever.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
i remember taj got ~5th at FCD (july 2007) with m2 and marth
pockyD
Smash Legend
...mostly marth
especially in his wins
especially in his wins
X1-12
Smash Champion
thats cause in the example of Taj and M2 there's a massive gap in play choice between his M2 and other's fox etc but only relatively a tiny gap between thier player skill
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
What? I am not sure I understand what your saying, but it seems like you just proved my point. There is not a large difference in Taj's skill level and the other people he was playing, yet he loses decisively as mewtwo. Therefore, mewtwo is a factor in his losses.
X1-12
Smash Champion
yeah His character had a factor in his losses but player skill > character choice is still true, Imagine a total scrub playing fox vs taj as mewtwo, the player skill has so much more of an effect on the outcome than the character choice. the reason taj was losing as m2 is that there's such little difference in skill which means that character choice actually begins to have an effect
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
The tier list isn't based upon what happens when a total scrub plays. The tier list is based upon the top level of play. At the top level of play, every character below high tier has too many inherent weaknesses to be viable.
X1-12
Smash Champion
this still remains to be true though
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
::sigh::
It remains true if your looking at the game just in general and at all players in general. If you are speaking about the tier list, which represents <1% of players if not .1 or .01, then it is not true at all.
And from another perspective. If your looking tier list at just high and top it remains true. But if you add in mid and low then it isn't.
It remains true if your looking at the game just in general and at all players in general. If you are speaking about the tier list, which represents <1% of players if not .1 or .01, then it is not true at all.
And from another perspective. If your looking tier list at just high and top it remains true. But if you add in mid and low then it isn't.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
The tier list is founded from the actions of top level players because they have the strongest grasp on what a respective character can do.
In respects to matchups-ie actual vs play-it only refers to two players of equal skill.
At =skill the lower tier generally loses and I believe that there is a margin in which a better player can lose to a lesser one while using a lower tier character.
Id bet many ppl could beat mangos m2, yet there arent many ppl who are better than mango(~0).
Also just in case-you cannot counter with anything relating to the individual players skill with a certain character, because that only means if they suck with any respective character, then while using said character their skill level is actually very low; it doesnt even factor into the argument of skill vs character choice at that point because you lose the variable of character choice and are only judging instantaneous skill levels.
In respects to matchups-ie actual vs play-it only refers to two players of equal skill.
At =skill the lower tier generally loses and I believe that there is a margin in which a better player can lose to a lesser one while using a lower tier character.
Id bet many ppl could beat mangos m2, yet there arent many ppl who are better than mango(~0).
Also just in case-you cannot counter with anything relating to the individual players skill with a certain character, because that only means if they suck with any respective character, then while using said character their skill level is actually very low; it doesnt even factor into the argument of skill vs character choice at that point because you lose the variable of character choice and are only judging instantaneous skill levels.
Yeah, you go ahead and keep thinking that. Im just gonna continue beating any mewtwo player who's better than me by picking Falcon and abusing the fact that I can 0-Death him out of anything.
X1-12
Smash Champion
I'm not saying that if mango started playing m2 he'd still beat everyone I know both player skill and character choice have an effect its just that player skill has a bigger influence than character choice
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
ive already given you a situation where players skill becomes character choice.
A highly skilled player can lose with a ****ty character. Even if hes good with the character.
Taj does much better with his marth than his m2. In both situations the player skill is the same, only diff is the character.
A highly skilled player can lose with a ****ty character. Even if hes good with the character.
Taj does much better with his marth than his m2. In both situations the player skill is the same, only diff is the character.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
I see his logic way to go. This guy is using staight logic X1-12. If Player skill > Character choice then everyone fox should win vs anyone m2 right? fumi as yoshi loses to random player who doesn't know who to play who picks falco.
Also if Players skill "is equal" > Character player 1 picks pikachu player 2 picks ice climbers both don't chain throw and they are both good. who would win? I've seen the pikachu who come very close to winning when they is chain throwing but with out this pikachu would have won.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you> Character choice
ice climbers vs fox it's fairly even you could debate skill will tell who wins, but fox picks pokeflaots ice climbers lose.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage> Character choice
pichu vs fox the fox has never fought a pichu before and gets chain thrown and gimped by F-smash.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage, both know match-up inside and out> Character choice
G&W vs disadvancce match-up. G&W lands 2 9's
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage, both know match-up inside and out, no randomness> Character choice
you end at the same percent everytime fox always wins with 67% 1 stock on just made smash boring.
My points are the following
people need more logic about the list
no one is the same skill level
the number of things added to this list could go on forever because of all the factors in it.
sheik take little skill
Everyone plays different so even If they are worse or should lose the match-up they can still use mindgames or their way of playing is hard to deal with.
lower tiers CAN win
also great quote x1-12 The worse part of dieing is you can't do more or show and help the world. Funny we can find heaven sooner than we can make heaven
heavily edited to make sense
Also if Players skill "is equal" > Character player 1 picks pikachu player 2 picks ice climbers both don't chain throw and they are both good. who would win? I've seen the pikachu who come very close to winning when they is chain throwing but with out this pikachu would have won.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you> Character choice
ice climbers vs fox it's fairly even you could debate skill will tell who wins, but fox picks pokeflaots ice climbers lose.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage> Character choice
pichu vs fox the fox has never fought a pichu before and gets chain thrown and gimped by F-smash.
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage, both know match-up inside and out> Character choice
G&W vs disadvancce match-up. G&W lands 2 9's
Players skill "is equal" and useing all techs and gayness and whathave you with balnced stage, both know match-up inside and out, no randomness> Character choice
you end at the same percent everytime fox always wins with 67% 1 stock on just made smash boring.
My points are the following
people need more logic about the list
no one is the same skill level
the number of things added to this list could go on forever because of all the factors in it.
sheik take little skill
Everyone plays different so even If they are worse or should lose the match-up they can still use mindgames or their way of playing is hard to deal with.
lower tiers CAN win
also great quote x1-12 The worse part of dieing is you can't do more or show and help the world. Funny we can find heaven sooner than we can make heaven
heavily edited to make sense
X1-12
Smash Champion
this still doesn't make cents... sense to me
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Lololololol
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I didnt get the examples.
Aesir
Smash Master
Lolwut?
tencharacters
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
You can't just say skill< choice for a number of reasons like stages, ways of playing, mindgames, people sometimes do better or worse, knowledge, and randomness. ANd how can you even say 2 people are perfectly equal in skill when they have different tactics, charcters,and exp? Really it's best to say this gereral ____ does better than ____________
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
A box of cookies to anyone who can decipher this.
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