Official Metaknight Discussion

[Master Raven]

mmm tasty charts

*waits for them to be lost and forgotten in the never-ending pages to come*

 

[DMG]

Master Raven, you caused a new page to be formed. Therefore, I blame you if these get lost.

 

[Master Raven]

is that a bare nipple i'm actually seeing in your avatar?

 

[Overswarm]

Here we go.

My raw results are here: LINK
Feel free to peruse that, try to reproduce my results if you want, and most importantly, if you want this sort of ranking set up for your own character so you see who's who within your main, you can find all that info here.

----------
PURPOSE
----------

The main idea here is to determine the skill distribution among characters. This should give, as objectively as is possible, a display of which characters are "popular" at various skill levels.

If a character is simply better than another, one would expect the shape of these curves to be the same, but one curve to be higher than another at any given rank, vertically in the plots I will make.

If a character is simply more popular than another, one would expect the curve at any particular skill level to stretch out to higher ranks, horizontally in the plots I will make.

Of course, the two ideas are difficult to separate. We will therefore search for convenient reference points in the data to compare one character to the next.


-----------
METHODS
-----------

I created a Python script (provided in the zip file above) to use Ankoku's tournament results .txt exports and used Ankoku's scoring system to determine how much each player scored in each tournament for 1. the past 13 months of complete data (January 2009 through January 2010), and 2. the past 6 months (August 2009 to January 2010) of complete data.

These players and results were binned into the characters they represented. Within each character, players with identical names are automatically combined, and for each of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, and Marth player, I manually went through the lists to find names that appear to be of the same player and combined them.

I admit that I do not know the tournament scene as well as I might; it is possible that I failed to merge some results under separate player names that should have been together. I invite people to inspect my .xls files in the .zip above to verify I didn't miss anyone.

It should be noted that no integer number of months would exactly reproduce Ankoku's current score per character, but 6 months came pretty close. Either Ankoku's export wasn't a complete represenation of his data, or the method of treating odd cases was different from mine. I have no reason to believe the errors are systematic, so the results should not be biased either way.


----------
RESULTS
----------

Above, I show, for each of the past 6 and 13 months, how many points each player scored with a given character as a function of their rank within that character, at two different levels of zoom for each data set, for each of the five best overall performing characters.

(Note: I know I accidentally changed the rank scales between 13 to 6 months. It's probably still fair, though, since 13 months has more people in it than 6. If this really bugs someone, I'll go through the effort to fix it and reupload.)


Below, I show histograms: they show how many PEOPLE scored between X and Y points. At each successive bin, the point values are doubled. These histograms should be better at displaying how the tournament scecne looks for the medium-low skill levels.

Fun fact:
In the past 6 months, Ally is the 9th highest ranked Meta Knight. (Overswarm is 10th).


----------------------------
ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS
----------------------------

At this point this report becomes slightly more subjective.

Looking at the top few spots, it is obvious that the top player of each of Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy Kong are outliers and do not fit their characters' overall trends.

For Diddy, Marth, and Falco, except for the top 3 players, those characters appear to be farily close in tournament performance from one to the next, though it appears Falco wasn't as good a year ago as he has been in the past half year. Snake has been better than those three, but the degree by which Meta Knight is better than Snake at all ranks is much higher than the amount by which Snake is better than the others.

This much could have been guessed just by Ankoku's summed data in his ranking list, but this does show that Meta Knight isn't worse than other character(s), in which case his high overall performance would require a very, very long "plateau" at a medium-high skill level, much longer than for Snake, to make up for the point difference observed.

As for popularity versus character goodness, first let us look at the 13 month data again.

There is a "kink" at around rank 6 for both Meta Knight and Snake, indicating the rank at which the players drop off from being high level players to being the next level down, indicating equal popularity. Throughout this zone, each MK player scored more than 2x as many points as each Snake. At 13 months, the rest of the data is pretty smooth and does not lend itself well to differentiating between skill and popularity; suffice it to say that MK's dominance does not disappear at any level, although some of the other characters do cross each other from rank to rank.

In the 6 month data, there are two usable kinks in Snake's data, and one in Meta Knight's data. For high level play, MK is about 2x better a character than Snake and slightly more popular among players at that level. It is not immediately obvious where to link up the second kink, but the two extremes of justifiable locations both say that MK is more popular, and differ in saying whether at medium-high level of play MK continues to be a 2x better a character at 1.5x the popularity or if instead MK is 3x as popular as Snake at that level.

Without a specific reason to believe that the selection of Snake or MK changes greatly between high and medium-high play, I'm inclined to believe that MK simply continues to be slightly more popular but 2x as good as Snake, and 3-5x as good as other characters.

Looking at the tails of the rank plots, it is clear that the amount by which MK has been outperforming other characters at ranks up to 27 or so has increased dramatically between 13 months ago and 6 months ago. For the next 10 ranks it's less pronounced, then it becomes roughly equivalent to the 13 months ago level.

Now let us compare the 13 month and 6 month histograms. The amount by which MK is more popular than other characters at lower levels doesn't appear to have changed much, but at medium and medium-high levels of play it does; his increased level of dominance appears to come primarily from there.


A side note: there are a lot more players in the 13 month data than in the 6 month data; a bit less than half as many, it appears. This would be consistent with both the following theories:

1. At every month, the set of players that make it to the top 8s in some tourney is selected in such a way that the players who have earned points in previous months are preferred NOT to hog the same spots again, so that the total number of unique players is linear in time.
2. The number of competitive players (that is, those who play brawl and actually have a shot at getting top 8 or better) has gone down by more than 50% in the past 13 months.

The first theory is obviously wrong. I can't prove or disprove the second with the data I have right now, but it is clear that the competitive Brawl community has been shrinking by some amount.


So, how much better is MK than other top characters? Let me finish with one more graph.

This sure is an amazing post

 

[DMG]

Actually Master Raven, no. But I tell you what, it's Daaaaaaamn close lol

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

That was so well put together. My mind has been blown. How long did it take you to do all of this?

I also find it kind of outrageous that Wario stands at number 3 on the tier list, but yet doesn't have enough tournament usage to be considered in that data.

 

[GwJ]

Here we go.

My raw results are here: LINK
Feel free to peruse that, try to reproduce my results if you want, and most importantly, if you want this sort of ranking set up for your own character so you see who's who within your main, you can find all that info here.

----------
PURPOSE
----------

The main idea here is to determine the skill distribution among characters. This should give, as objectively as is possible, a display of which characters are "popular" at various skill levels.

If a character is simply better than another, one would expect the shape of these curves to be the same, but one curve to be higher than another at any given rank, vertically in the plots I will make.

If a character is simply more popular than another, one would expect the curve at any particular skill level to stretch out to higher ranks, horizontally in the plots I will make.

Of course, the two ideas are difficult to separate. We will therefore search for convenient reference points in the data to compare one character to the next.


-----------
METHODS
-----------

I created a Python script (provided in the zip file above) to use Ankoku's tournament results .txt exports and used Ankoku's scoring system to determine how much each player scored in each tournament for 1. the past 13 months of complete data (January 2009 through January 2010), and 2. the past 6 months (August 2009 to January 2010) of complete data.

These players and results were binned into the characters they represented. Within each character, players with identical names are automatically combined, and for each of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, and Marth player, I manually went through the lists to find names that appear to be of the same player and combined them.

I admit that I do not know the tournament scene as well as I might; it is possible that I failed to merge some results under separate player names that should have been together. I invite people to inspect my .xls files in the .zip above to verify I didn't miss anyone.

It should be noted that no integer number of months would exactly reproduce Ankoku's current score per character, but 6 months came pretty close. Either Ankoku's export wasn't a complete represenation of his data, or the method of treating odd cases was different from mine. I have no reason to believe the errors are systematic, so the results should not be biased either way.


----------
RESULTS
----------

Above, I show, for each of the past 6 and 13 months, how many points each player scored with a given character as a function of their rank within that character, at two different levels of zoom for each data set, for each of the five best overall performing characters.

(Note: I know I accidentally changed the rank scales between 13 to 6 months. It's probably still fair, though, since 13 months has more people in it than 6. If this really bugs someone, I'll go through the effort to fix it and reupload.)


Below, I show histograms: they show how many PEOPLE scored between X and Y points. At each successive bin, the point values are doubled. These histograms should be better at displaying how the tournament scecne looks for the medium-low skill levels.

Fun fact:
In the past 6 months, Ally is the 9th highest ranked Meta Knight. (Overswarm is 10th).


----------------------------
ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS
----------------------------

At this point this report becomes slightly more subjective.

Looking at the top few spots, it is obvious that the top player of each of Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy Kong are outliers and do not fit their characters' overall trends.

For Diddy, Marth, and Falco, except for the top 3 players, those characters appear to be farily close in tournament performance from one to the next, though it appears Falco wasn't as good a year ago as he has been in the past half year. Snake has been better than those three, but the degree by which Meta Knight is better than Snake at all ranks is much higher than the amount by which Snake is better than the others.

This much could have been guessed just by Ankoku's summed data in his ranking list, but this does show that Meta Knight isn't worse than other character(s), in which case his high overall performance would require a very, very long "plateau" at a medium-high skill level, much longer than for Snake, to make up for the point difference observed.

As for popularity versus character goodness, first let us look at the 13 month data again.

There is a "kink" at around rank 6 for both Meta Knight and Snake, indicating the rank at which the players drop off from being high level players to being the next level down, indicating equal popularity. Throughout this zone, each MK player scored more than 2x as many points as each Snake. At 13 months, the rest of the data is pretty smooth and does not lend itself well to differentiating between skill and popularity; suffice it to say that MK's dominance does not disappear at any level, although some of the other characters do cross each other from rank to rank.

In the 6 month data, there are two usable kinks in Snake's data, and one in Meta Knight's data. For high level play, MK is about 2x better a character than Snake and slightly more popular among players at that level. It is not immediately obvious where to link up the second kink, but the two extremes of justifiable locations both say that MK is more popular, and differ in saying whether at medium-high level of play MK continues to be a 2x better a character at 1.5x the popularity or if instead MK is 3x as popular as Snake at that level.

Without a specific reason to believe that the selection of Snake or MK changes greatly between high and medium-high play, I'm inclined to believe that MK simply continues to be slightly more popular but 2x as good as Snake, and 3-5x as good as other characters.

Looking at the tails of the rank plots, it is clear that the amount by which MK has been outperforming other characters at ranks up to 27 or so has increased dramatically between 13 months ago and 6 months ago. For the next 10 ranks it's less pronounced, then it becomes roughly equivalent to the 13 months ago level.

Now let us compare the 13 month and 6 month histograms. The amount by which MK is more popular than other characters at lower levels doesn't appear to have changed much, but at medium and medium-high levels of play it does; his increased level of dominance appears to come primarily from there.


A side note: there are a lot more players in the 13 month data than in the 6 month data; a bit less than half as many, it appears. This would be consistent with both the following theories:

1. At every month, the set of players that make it to the top 8s in some tourney is selected in such a way that the players who have earned points in previous months are preferred NOT to hog the same spots again, so that the total number of unique players is linear in time.
2. The number of competitive players (that is, those who play brawl and actually have a shot at getting top 8 or better) has gone down by more than 50% in the past 13 months.

The first theory is obviously wrong. I can't prove or disprove the second with the data I have right now, but it is clear that the competitive Brawl community has been shrinking by some amount.


So, how much better is MK than other top characters? Let me finish with one more graph.

So...............Is MK banned yet?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Do my eyes deceive me? Actual useful data!

That was nice Crow, really nice. I haven't thoroughly examined the data yet so I dunno whether it's truly up to par yet, but it looks like it, but like all useful data, it's gotta generate some answers and some interesting questions.


*pounds* nice bro



Eh, the only hitch, this was the type of data I wanted for "data we don't know" so this makes generating a criteria harder, but at this point it hardly matters.

I would assume people who want to take anything away from it would do so keeping in mind that it is biased. I did not intend that thread to be "ok which ever one has most posts wins" thread, it was just to get an idea of who is quiting if anyone for either reason, which is why there's no poll. Are they top level players, low level players, etc?

You know, I'll be honest about why I wrote that thread up. I find it very hard to believe that the smash community will be torn at all by a ban, temp-ban, or no action. If the thread dies with no one posting in it on either side it will suggest (not affirm) that there won't be as huge or dramatic a split as some people have forecasted.

But you can't get an idea of why people are quitting without proper data, you just get a couple of peoples' reasons, there's no correlation. People might be quitting in general because they like pie but because people who dislike the metagame with MK tend to be less apathetic (which is probably true), the [arbitrary small small here for an example that is not intended to reflect the actual population of because who quit because of this] people that quit because of MK show up but the silent majority will not.


The best you can hope for is "this is an example of some reasons why some people quit" and even then it's a little deceptive.

No, you're missing something. The problem is that even if you create universal ban criteria, you will ALREADY KNOW as you are creating them whether or not they will ban the current Meta Knight.

And because of this, depending on who is developing these criteria, they will be biased, even if they don't intend to be.

The two criteria I mentioned are UNIVERSAL, as in, ANY character with Shuttle Loop and Mach Tornado should be banned, but that's obviously just an absurd example.

So yes you can create criteria that are "like a ruler," but you already know exactly how they will measure everything, and it can immediately be determined whether a character will be banned or not banned.

Edit: My point is that with a ruler, the method of measurement or determination existed before the "competition," that is, jumping as far as you can.

With the ban criteria, the results (i.e. tier list, matchups, tourney results, understanding of the metagame - all things that are necessary to know to decide whether or not to ban) are already determined, and now the method of measurement or determination must be decided.

It's like if you had that jumping contest, but didn't tell the players before hand whether the highest jump one, farthest jump, fastest horizontal air speed, or whatever else won the contest. Yes all of those things make "better" jumps by some absurd argument, and perhaps some combination of them should be used to create the final winning criteria, but you still have to develop the criteria BEFORE the jump, rather than after it.

The point is that if we make any, we base it on data we don't know, sidestepping the bias issue for the most part.

 

[C.box]

I really don't care about if he gets banned or not but crow's post is ****ing amazing lmaoooooo.

Omg i would not have the patience to do that even if i cared loool.

/useless post.

 

[Overswarm]

Alright guys, help me figure out a few things.

What has anti-ban claimed that hasn't been "debunked"?

Anti-ban claims:

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.

Functional definition for "broken": Character somehow ignores game mechanics, cannot be beaten, or has some random uncontrollable effect. (they gave this)

Not only is this irrelevant, but MK does ignore game mechanics with his IDC. We merely removed it. Other banned characters don't fit this "broken" criteria. Ice Climbers actually do fit their criteria, though.

Metaknight does not bend the rules of smash to bypass hit stun, DI, KOs, free movement, or other concepts familiar to smash game play. Tournament results have disproved Metaknight's invincibility, and he can be beaten in the realm of human ability. Every input in Metaknight's control is known to have a predictable outcome, and every attack is known to have a set of unchanging properties. Metaknight does not have the inherently random nature that items do, and he cannot mimic the random nature of some stages, such as Delfino Plaza.

Argument #2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving.

This one actually hasn't been answered, but I don't think it ever can. If this was a viable reason to not ban MK... nothing would ever be banned.

Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking.

We've seen enough evidence to show that Metaknight doesn't have a counter and that other characters do. MK doesn't have any statistically bad stages either; no one "always takes MK to stage X" like they do with Diddy for Rainbow Cruise and the like. They just take MK to their best stage. MK is the best secondary and main in terms of counterpicking, easily... and data supports this.

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved.

Metaknight has been explored to the point where stalling has been a major issue with the character. However, the two primary methods of stalling already have solutions, and are no longer evidence for a ban. The IDC has already been formally banned and is no longer an issue. Planking is banned in some areas, but this problem is not specific to Metaknight. Even more specifically, the Dojo vs DEHF ruling from Genesis was not a situation with Metaknight, rather just a poor judgment call. Any basis that would further extend past the basic definition of a ban for a more specific criterion has no application to this debate.

Planking has yet to be banned by the BBR, but even after TOs did it on their own, scrooging came up. MK is still coming up with all sorts of goodies even after we banned IDC. Then planking. Then scrooging.


NEW ARGUMENTS FROM ANTI-BAN:

Argument N1: Metaknight is just popular, and this inflates the results

Thank you Crow!

Also, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Argument N2: Snake and Diddy have shown to do well against MK

I've done the research, Flayl's done the research, and now Crow! has done the research. Three different methods all show that it is only Ally and ADHD that do so.... not their characters.

Argument N3: It's okay to have a character this dominant

You can't really argue with opinion from a one on one standpoint, but seeing the community split like this at all levels of play shows that this really isn't the case. This is very much a divisive issue. There's not much you can say about this though.



What other arguments does anti-ban have? (Other than "I main MK" and "It's not fair")

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry about being lazy about this RJ. Sleep was required to make me think right.

1.) Getting everyone to go along with it - Honestly this isn't hard if we have enough people doing it, but with other areas may not support this at all and will ignore it. We need enough support to get people to go along with it if we were to do a temp ban. We need support without splitting the community.

2.) The length - If it's too short people will just wait out for the temp to be lifted or if it's too long we might as well ban him.

3.) Quitting - No matter what we do, someone is not going to like a decision we make. Some people are going to leave this community if MK is even temp banned, then if we learned MK isn't banworthy we just ticked off a bunch of people who played him and may not come back. Doing this is only going to shrink the community at first, if we're wrong then we shrank the community when we could have avoided the situation by finding another method to test his banworthyness, like forming solid criteria and figuring out if MK is banworthy.

4.) At the end of the temp ban - Some people may keep the temp ban format just for the fact they enjoy MK banned. Face it, we both know someone is going to pull this, granted TO's can do what they want, but many people who want to playa character others deem legal play will lose out.

5.) Proving validity in the results - What would be a valid result? If previous top MK players went? the number? Some people are going to question some of the results and how useful they are. What would you say would be proof of valid results?

6.) Many MK's will have trouble picking up - For those who MK was a clutch for them to win, they may never recover, for those who didn't need him will stagnate for a while as they try to build up back to their previous placings.

people in red are people who:
- quit
- are unknown
- main bad characters

Omni still is quite a poor point to bring up. Maining a low tier doesn't exclude them.

I've mained Snake since Japanese release and know a lot about him. I think there are some things that even top Snakes aren't doing. It's stuff that is potentially impractical or of little use, but it's worth looking into. The Snake community is pretty desolate.

Diddy, I think, could possibly be the "Fox" of the game. Initially considered worse than "Sheik"(MK), but more technically-demanding, and has really high potential. With further breakthroughs, who knows what could happen?

I guess I could say this for some Lucario's even myself.

I can see what your saying in this. It would be nice to see if this pans out well.

I think we're more likely to ban MK that allow food on low. Items have been associated with casual play for so long it will be tough to get them back in.

I'm not talking about food on low, I'm talking about the actual format for a legalized item play as an alternative format.

Unfortunately many people this think that item play is casual play so. :/

Actually, I'd argue that the way the metagame is going, a 4/6 with MK is enough to make your character unviable. See: Marth, ROB. You have a very hard to win matchup against the best character in the game, AND you are guaranteed to face him a lot more.

Very hard? It's a 4/6, thats not that bad at all. The two you listed, R.O.B. gets beaten worse than a 4/6, Marth I think is a 4/6 if they can get around the fact how mentally straining the MU is to play correctly against MK.

You are less likely to win from an omnipresent 4/6 existing, but unviable is a silly word to use.

@Crow, you made a lot of people very happy, I give you props for this data.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Crow will you marry me

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

is crow getting into the bbr next week? seems like it should happen now

 

[Xyro77]

Crow/OS.

IM SERIOUS! Please save ALL of these charts and walls of text. This type of stuff is the "golden gun" we need to us in the coming months.

 

[OverLade]

Crow/OS.

IM SERIOUS! Please save ALL of these charts and walls of text. This type of stuff is the "golden gun" we need to us in the coming months.

You heard this man!!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Is MK banned yet

 

[Master Raven]

Is this group orgy done yet

 

[Raziek]

Wow, Crow! Just wow. Jizzed in my pants, man. You cannot refute that wall of statistical ****.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Is this group orgy done yet

that would be a no

 

[Justblaze647]

Can someone break down all of Crow's raw data into layman's terms?

Explain to me what that all means in a few short sentences, por favor

Spoiler

I dare you

 

[CRASHiC]

Is this group orgy done yet

This isn't an orgy, its a gangbang on Crow!

No wait, that isn't right either, no, its what I believe is called a "hen party."

 

[Overswarm]

Can someone break down all of Crow's raw data into layman's terms?

Explain to me what that all means in a few short sentences, por favor

Spoiler

I dare you

His information shows that MK's dominance of the metagame is not only incredible, but is not due to popularity. It is also the case at ALL levels of play.

It also shows that the very top MK, Snake, and Diddy all perform well outside the bounds of the norm, meaning M2k, Ally, and ADHD are not indicative of any trends.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can someone break down all of Crow's raw data into layman's terms?

Explain to me what that all means in a few short sentences, por favor

Spoiler

I dare you

Metaknight is between 3 and 27 times as good as all other characters. With proof.

GO ****ING READ IT.

Also: this debate is over IMO. Inb4omni decides not to read Crow!'s post because "it's too long".

 

[MarKO X]

looks like that ban MK cake is coming soon.

Now all we have to do is wait for the anti-ban so whats.

 

[Justblaze647]

His information shows that MK's dominance of the metagame is not only incredible, but is not due to popularity. It is also the case at ALL levels of play.

It also shows that the very top MK, Snake, and Diddy all perform well outside the bounds of the norm, meaning M2k, Ally, and ADHD are not indicative of any trends.

So if his dominance is not a result of his supposed popularity... then what is it?

That's good news. That means we shouldn't be hearing anymore of that "ADHD beat M2K" rubbish as the basis for not banning MK, correct?

Soooooo... what exactly is the Anti-ban side of this argument basing their position on now?

Edit:

GO ****ING READ IT.

I did that. But as Omni has mentioned, Data can be interpreted differently, depending on who perceives it. I just wanted to be sure I was taking the right lesson from it... o_O

 

[Overswarm]

So if his dominance is not a result of his supposed popularity... then what is it?

He's 3 to 27x better than every other character in the game.

That's good news. That means we shouldn't be hearing anymore of that "ADHD beat M2K" rubbish as the basis for not banning MK, correct?

One would hope.

Soooooo... what exactly is the Anti-ban side of this argument basing their position on now?

I don't know.

I know a lot of the "upper" members that people look up to generally say "no" to banning MK because they main metaknight or don't want m2k to lose his meal ticket, but other than that I don't know.


Copying this, cuz I need help:


Alright guys, help me figure out a few things.

What has anti-ban claimed that hasn't been "debunked"?

Anti-ban claims:

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.

Functional definition for "broken": Character somehow ignores game mechanics, cannot be beaten, or has some random uncontrollable effect. (they gave this)

Not only is this irrelevant, but MK does ignore game mechanics with his IDC. We merely removed it. Other banned characters don't fit this "broken" criteria. Ice Climbers actually do fit their criteria, though.

Metaknight does not bend the rules of smash to bypass hit stun, DI, KOs, free movement, or other concepts familiar to smash game play. Tournament results have disproved Metaknight's invincibility, and he can be beaten in the realm of human ability. Every input in Metaknight's control is known to have a predictable outcome, and every attack is known to have a set of unchanging properties. Metaknight does not have the inherently random nature that items do, and he cannot mimic the random nature of some stages, such as Delfino Plaza.

Argument #2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving.

This one actually hasn't been answered, but I don't think it ever can. If this was a viable reason to not ban MK... nothing would ever be banned.

Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking.

We've seen enough evidence to show that Metaknight doesn't have a counter and that other characters do. MK doesn't have any statistically bad stages either; no one "always takes MK to stage X" like they do with Diddy for Rainbow Cruise and the like. They just take MK to their best stage. MK is the best secondary and main in terms of counterpicking, easily... and data supports this.

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved.

Metaknight has been explored to the point where stalling has been a major issue with the character. However, the two primary methods of stalling already have solutions, and are no longer evidence for a ban. The IDC has already been formally banned and is no longer an issue. Planking is banned in some areas, but this problem is not specific to Metaknight. Even more specifically, the Dojo vs DEHF ruling from Genesis was not a situation with Metaknight, rather just a poor judgment call. Any basis that would further extend past the basic definition of a ban for a more specific criterion has no application to this debate.

Planking has yet to be banned by the BBR, but even after TOs did it on their own, scrooging came up. MK is still coming up with all sorts of goodies even after we banned IDC. Then planking. Then scrooging.


NEW ARGUMENTS FROM ANTI-BAN:

Argument N1: Metaknight is just popular, and this inflates the results

Thank you Crow!

Also, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Argument N2: Snake and Diddy have shown to do well against MK

I've done the research, Flayl's done the research, and now Crow! has done the research. Three different methods all show that it is only Ally and ADHD that do so.... not their characters.

Argument N3: It's okay to have a character this dominant

You can't really argue with opinion from a one on one standpoint, but seeing the community split like this at all levels of play shows that this really isn't the case. This is very much a divisive issue. There's not much you can say about this though.



What other arguments does anti-ban have? (Other than "I main MK" and "It's not fair")

 

[Zulu Nation]

I don't think Anti-ban has anything.

I used to be anti-ban like 4 months ago but not anymore now this chart just kills it.....

This is good stuff!

 

[Ganonsburg]

27 times as good as other characters is huge. Even three times as good is huge. But 27 is insane. Good job, Crow!

I think the cake should have Ganon's face on it, seeing as he's the opposite of MK. Or we should go for irony, and put MK's face. Symbolically, we ate him up and crapped him out.

I think before people get too excited there should at least be a good, thought out plan during the temporary ban. Even with all this proof, we should know what data we're collecting, how to tell if the results are worth the ban, and so on.

 

[Turbo Ether]

"Akuma was at least 100x better than every other character in ST, according to Sirlin. Being 3-27x better is not sufficient!"

 

[Master Raven]

So have we estblished that Crow's Chart has a 97:3 MU on MK?

 

[Albert.]

What's gonna happen if M2k starts maining Diddy kong?

Such a fvcking scary thought right there, if anything!

 

[Zulu Nation]

Yes Crow's Chart is SG Tier (Super God)

It's so powerful that it takes MK out for a short period of time.

 

[MarKO X]

"Akuma was at least 100x better than every other character in ST, according to Sirlin. Being 3-27x better is not sufficient!"

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html
debunked.

it's 10x

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You heard this man!!

now that was a GOOD game

 

[Turbo Ether]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html
debunked.

it's 10x

My argument! It has been dismantled!

 

[Flayl]

I know a lot of the "upper" members that people look up to generally say "no" to banning MK because they main metaknight or don't want m2k to lose his meal ticket, but other than that I don't know.

This is a minor point so: M2K is an outlier within the MK's, I'm sure he'd win most of his tournaments with his top tier of choice either way.

And yay for Crow!.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Alright guys, help me figure out a few things.

What has anti-ban claimed that hasn't been "debunked"?

Anti-ban claims:

Argument #1: Metaknight is not broken.

Functional definition for "broken": Character somehow ignores game mechanics, cannot be beaten, or has some random uncontrollable effect. (they gave this)

Not only is this irrelevant, but MK does ignore game mechanics with his IDC. We merely removed it. Other banned characters don't fit this "broken" criteria. Ice Climbers actually do fit their criteria, though.





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



This one actually hasn't been answered, but I don't think it ever can. If this was a viable reason to not ban MK... nothing would ever be banned.



We've seen enough evidence to show that Metaknight doesn't have a counter and that other characters do. MK doesn't have any statistically bad stages either; no one "always takes MK to stage X" like they do with Diddy for Rainbow Cruise and the like. They just take MK to their best stage. MK is the best secondary and main in terms of counterpicking, easily... and data supports this.



Planking has yet to be banned by the BBR, but even after TOs did it on their own, scrooging came up. MK is still coming up with all sorts of goodies even after we banned IDC. Then planking. Then scrooging.


NEW ARGUMENTS FROM ANTI-BAN:

Argument N1: Metaknight is just popular, and this inflates the results

Thank you Crow!

Also, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Argument N2: Snake and Diddy have shown to do well against MK

I've done the research, Flayl's done the research, and now Crow! has done the research. Three different methods all show that it is only Ally and ADHD that do so.... not their characters.

Argument N3: It's okay to have a character this dominant

You can't really argue with opinion from a one on one standpoint, but seeing the community split like this at all levels of play shows that this really isn't the case. This is very much a divisive issue. There's not much you can say about this though.



What other arguments does anti-ban have? (Other than "I main MK" and "It's not fair")

where are you even getting those from? they have no quote link and i didn't see them in the thread.

also, you should read this your method of "debate" in this is just taking a bad argument and destroying it then pinning it on anti-ban. cool story bro.

Can't hang with the big boys, gotta go pick on the small timers?
Mighty mighty overswarm can't even have a real argument LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

Soooooo... what exactly is the Anti-ban side of this argument basing their position on now?

Lack of criteria, same as always, still the one thing that's never been responded to.


We still don't have it.

 

[Tien2500]

Well I hate to add to the Crow! praise orgy... but he deserves it. Great work.

 

[Justblaze647]

I know a lot of the "upper" members that people look up to generally say "no" to banning MK because they main metaknight or don't want m2k to lose his meal ticket, but other than that I don't know.

I can understand people not wanting their main removed from the competitive scene. But Smash should not, and does not, revolve around whether or not M2K plays it. I have nothing personal against the guy... I actually really enjoy watching him play, but so the fawk what if he quits?

Will that destroy the metagame? No.

Will it kill the competitive scene? No.

Spoiler

in fact, probably the opposite

Will it drive other people to quit? Maybe, but good riddance as far as I'm concerned.