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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Dark 3nergy

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Metaknight is between 3 and 27 times as good as all other characters. With proof.

GO ****ING READ IT.

Also: this debate is over IMO. Inb4omni decides not to read Crow!'s post because "it's too long".
There are some of us that look at walls of text and just blow it off like they're not important. Thats possibly the other problem both anti/pro banners will run into are the people that either 1. stopped caring 2. on the fence.

If anyone wants support to get **** done you need to convince masses to care about one side indefinitely. So having a tl;dr verison saves some people the trouble.
 

fkacyan

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OK, nice data post.

... And?

Things yet to be proven:

1) Such dominance is a bad thing
2) Eliminating such dominance may have a potentially good effect on the metagame (In this case, making more characters viable)

My main concern is that eliminating MK will just make the top more diversified, but we really won't see any more of the low tiers than we do now. MK is not all that keeps a lot of the cast from performing.
 

MarKO X

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where are you even getting those from? they have no quote link and i didn't see them in the thread.

also, you should read this your method of "debate" in this is just taking a bad argument and destroying it then pinning it on anti-ban. cool story bro.

Can't hang with the big boys, gotta go pick on the small timers?
Mighty mighty overswarm can't even have a real argument LOLOLOLOLOL
Then stop wasting your time with OS and get at Crow.
I really wanna see what anti-ban has to say about his research.
 

Overswarm

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where are you even getting those from? they have no quote link and i didn't see them in the thread.

also, you should read this your method of "debate" in this is just taking a bad argument and destroying it then pinning it on anti-ban. cool story bro.

Can't hang with the big boys, gotta go pick on the small timers?
Mighty mighty overswarm can't even have a real argument LOLOLOLOLOL
Er... actually, the arguments listed earlier are from Anti-ban's official statement on the matter; all the anti-ban members of the BBR got together to create that, Omni being their lead. The other 3 were again from Omni, posted in this very thread; others echoed those sentiments.

You can find the official anti-ban statement in this pdf: http://lueshi.info/upload/images/metaknight.pdf
 

MarKO X

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lol
so anti-ban is going to take Crow's data and call it data, without even trying to draw any conclusions from it?

you could at least draw a conclusion from it. give me something: what do you conclude from Crow's data?
 

MarKO X

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you didn't see anything wrong with a character being 27 times better than the rest of the cast when akuma was only 10 times better?
whoa, now, don't create fallacies. there was a range.
MK is 3-27 times better than the rest of the cast.
 

Overswarm

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I'd also like to show something:

http://www.smashboards.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=263165


I am the #1 poster in this thread (woo!)

Omni is #3


Considering every time I've brought up a series of data to counteract things Omni has said he replies with "it's too long" or "I'm lazy" or "I don't have the time" while at the same time trying to contact TOs to convince them to "never ban MK no matter what", I am going to make the conclusion that he is lying.


So anti-ban, step yo game up.
 

CRASHiC

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OK, nice data post.

... And?

Things yet to be proven:

1) Such dominance is a bad thing
2) Eliminating such dominance may have a potentially good effect on the metagame (In this case, making more characters viable)

My main concern is that eliminating MK will just make the top more diversified, but we really won't see any more of the low tiers than we do now. MK is not all that keeps a lot of the cast from performing.
1) Yes, of course it is. The goal of designing a competative game is to balance diversity with viabilty. That leads to a more competative game over all. You want to max options while keeping balance. Clearly Metaknight's dominance is more than enough to warrent a ban.
2) It may have a good or bad, it doesn't matter. What matters if is it over centralizing enough to be banned. Banning certain stages might be bad as it lowers the viablity of some charecters now that they don't have a CP, but never the less, some of those stages are indeed bannable.

What do low tiers matter? Isn't diversity the goal in the first place? Simply because Jigglypuff is not viable means that we shouldn't ban Metaknight? This isn't SF we are talking about, this is Smash. People call Melee balanced when you truly only have 5 real options and a few characters that can SORT OF pass but haven't truly proven it yet.
 

Flayl

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If somehow Crow!'s data doesn't show you how much better MK is, I'm willing to gather evidence that will show nobody goes even with MK (even though you can pretty much assume this from everything that's been collected so far, i'tll be just like drawing a picture for somebody that doesn't understand a joke).
 

Mew2King

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WOW that's not even close to true, it's not even close to double. Low level play MK dominates against other people because he's eaiser to pick up and everyone wants to pick him up then they copy off each other and everyone loses to things like not DIing shuttle loops and then tornado spam. At high level play I'm the only MK in the top 4 players in the world and the other ones that rank high are people I trianed, and even still Ksizl the next highest ranking MK had to use Lucario to beat Judge after his MK lost and he's like 0-17 vs ADHD in tourney sets (or 0-14). ADHD didn't come close to losing at pound at all, and I barely beat Ally the majority (usually 50:50) in my most practiced MU. 3-27 times WTF you guys are mad crazy.

edit - mk does NOT beat diddy
 

adumbrodeus

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isn't that just your argument?
Mine, RDK's, SL's, one of Omni's, Thio's, so pretty much anyone with a consistent intelligent contribution from the anti-ban side held it.


WOW that's not even close to true, it's not even close to double. Low level play MK dominates against other people because he's eaiser to pick up and everyone wants to pick him up then they copy off each other and everyone loses to things like not DIing shuttle loops and then tornado spam. At high level play I'm the only MK in the top 4 players in the world and the other ones that rank high are people I trianed, and even still Ksizl the next highest ranking MK had to use Lucario to beat Judge after his MK lost and he's like 0-17 vs ADHD in tourney sets (or 0-14). ADHD didn't come close to losing at pound at all, and I barely beat Ally the majority (usually 50:50) in my most practiced MU. 3-27 times WTF you guys are mad crazy.

Data posted a few pages ago, check it, you're just making yourself look like an idiot now.
 

Tien2500

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WOW that's not even close to true, it's not even close to double. Low level play MK dominates against other people because he's eaiser to pick up and everyone wants to pick him up then they copy off each other and everyone loses to things like not DIing shuttle loops and then tornado spam. At high level play I'm the only MK in the top 4 players in the world and the other ones that rank high are people I trianed, and even still Ksizl the next highest ranking MK had to use Lucario to beat Judge after his MK lost and he's like 0-17 vs ADHD in tourney sets (or 0-14). ADHD didn't come close to losing at pound at all, and I barely beat Ally the majority (usually 50:50) in my most practiced MU. 3-27 times WTF you guys are mad crazy.

edit - mk does NOT beat diddy
Well the data is right there. If Crow did something wrong there you can argue about that but all you really have here is anecdotal evidence.
 

MarKO X

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Hey M2K, have a load of this:

Here we go.

My raw results are here: LINK
Feel free to peruse that, try to reproduce my results if you want, and most importantly, if you want this sort of ranking set up for your own character so you see who's who within your main, you can find all that info here.

----------
PURPOSE
----------

The main idea here is to determine the skill distribution among characters. This should give, as objectively as is possible, a display of which characters are "popular" at various skill levels.

If a character is simply better than another, one would expect the shape of these curves to be the same, but one curve to be higher than another at any given rank, vertically in the plots I will make.

If a character is simply more popular than another, one would expect the curve at any particular skill level to stretch out to higher ranks, horizontally in the plots I will make.

Of course, the two ideas are difficult to separate. We will therefore search for convenient reference points in the data to compare one character to the next.


-----------
METHODS
-----------

I created a Python script (provided in the zip file above) to use Ankoku's tournament results .txt exports and used Ankoku's scoring system to determine how much each player scored in each tournament for 1. the past 13 months of complete data (January 2009 through January 2010), and 2. the past 6 months (August 2009 to January 2010) of complete data.

These players and results were binned into the characters they represented. Within each character, players with identical names are automatically combined, and for each of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, and Marth player, I manually went through the lists to find names that appear to be of the same player and combined them.

I admit that I do not know the tournament scene as well as I might; it is possible that I failed to merge some results under separate player names that should have been together. I invite people to inspect my .xls files in the .zip above to verify I didn't miss anyone.

It should be noted that no integer number of months would exactly reproduce Ankoku's current score per character, but 6 months came pretty close. Either Ankoku's export wasn't a complete represenation of his data, or the method of treating odd cases was different from mine. I have no reason to believe the errors are systematic, so the results should not be biased either way.


----------
RESULTS
----------









Above, I show, for each of the past 6 and 13 months, how many points each player scored with a given character as a function of their rank within that character, at two different levels of zoom for each data set, for each of the five best overall performing characters.

(Note: I know I accidentally changed the rank scales between 13 to 6 months. It's probably still fair, though, since 13 months has more people in it than 6. If this really bugs someone, I'll go through the effort to fix it and reupload.)


Below, I show histograms: they show how many PEOPLE scored between X and Y points. At each successive bin, the point values are doubled. These histograms should be better at displaying how the tournament scecne looks for the medium-low skill levels.






Fun fact:
In the past 6 months, Ally is the 9th highest ranked Meta Knight. (Overswarm is 10th).


----------------------------
ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS
----------------------------

At this point this report becomes slightly more subjective.

Looking at the top few spots, it is obvious that the top player of each of Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy Kong are outliers and do not fit their characters' overall trends.

For Diddy, Marth, and Falco, except for the top 3 players, those characters appear to be farily close in tournament performance from one to the next, though it appears Falco wasn't as good a year ago as he has been in the past half year. Snake has been better than those three, but the degree by which Meta Knight is better than Snake at all ranks is much higher than the amount by which Snake is better than the others.

This much could have been guessed just by Ankoku's summed data in his ranking list, but this does show that Meta Knight isn't worse than other character(s), in which case his high overall performance would require a very, very long "plateau" at a medium-high skill level, much longer than for Snake, to make up for the point difference observed.

As for popularity versus character goodness, first let us look at the 13 month data again.



There is a "kink" at around rank 6 for both Meta Knight and Snake, indicating the rank at which the players drop off from being high level players to being the next level down, indicating equal popularity. Throughout this zone, each MK player scored more than 2x as many points as each Snake. At 13 months, the rest of the data is pretty smooth and does not lend itself well to differentiating between skill and popularity; suffice it to say that MK's dominance does not disappear at any level, although some of the other characters do cross each other from rank to rank.



In the 6 month data, there are two usable kinks in Snake's data, and one in Meta Knight's data. For high level play, MK is about 2x better a character than Snake and slightly more popular among players at that level. It is not immediately obvious where to link up the second kink, but the two extremes of justifiable locations both say that MK is more popular, and differ in saying whether at medium-high level of play MK continues to be a 2x better a character at 1.5x the popularity or if instead MK is 3x as popular as Snake at that level.

Without a specific reason to believe that the selection of Snake or MK changes greatly between high and medium-high play, I'm inclined to believe that MK simply continues to be slightly more popular but 2x as good as Snake, and 3-5x as good as other characters.

Looking at the tails of the rank plots, it is clear that the amount by which MK has been outperforming other characters at ranks up to 27 or so has increased dramatically between 13 months ago and 6 months ago. For the next 10 ranks it's less pronounced, then it becomes roughly equivalent to the 13 months ago level.

Now let us compare the 13 month and 6 month histograms. The amount by which MK is more popular than other characters at lower levels doesn't appear to have changed much, but at medium and medium-high levels of play it does; his increased level of dominance appears to come primarily from there.


A side note: there are a lot more players in the 13 month data than in the 6 month data; a bit less than half as many, it appears. This would be consistent with both the following theories:

1. At every month, the set of players that make it to the top 8s in some tourney is selected in such a way that the players who have earned points in previous months are preferred NOT to hog the same spots again, so that the total number of unique players is linear in time.
2. The number of competitive players (that is, those who play brawl and actually have a shot at getting top 8 or better) has gone down by more than 50% in the past 13 months.

The first theory is obviously wrong. I can't prove or disprove the second with the data I have right now, but it is clear that the competitive Brawl community has been shrinking by some amount.


So, how much better is MK than other top characters? Let me finish with one more graph.
your thought?
gogogogogo

c'mon anti-ban. I need a legit counter to this to get back on the fence, because at this rate, you're being stubborn.
 

Omni

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Great stuff, Crow. That took a lot of work.

When the time comes anti-ban will more than likely respond to all the information you've gathered and the points you've made. So as Xyro said make sure you organize and keep everything together so that anti-ban can respond to everything in an organized manner.
 

PND

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Well the data is right there. If Crow did something wrong there you can argue about that but all you really have here is anecdotal evidence.
Yeah, anecdotal evidence from the ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE METAGAME.

Honestly, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, and M2K aren't "outliers," they aren't some sort of freak exception from these rules. They are THE best players of the game. THEY are at the top of the metagame. That does not disqualify them from discussion of the results in any possible way.
 

Flayl

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^ Yeah, anecdotal evidence from the ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE METAGAME.

Honestly, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, and M2K aren't "outliers," they aren't some sort of freak exception from these rules. They are THE best players of the game. THEY are at the top of the metagame. That does not disqualify them from discussion of the results in any possible way.
They aren't disqualified, if you had read anything you'd know that they simply do not show any trends. There is a difference (a basic one).
 

Tien2500

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Yeah, anecdotal evidence from the ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE METAGAME.

Honestly, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, and M2K aren't "outliers," they aren't some sort of freak exception from these rules. They are THE best players of the game. THEY are at the top of the metagame. That does not disqualify them from discussion of the results in any possible way.
He's not disqualified from the conversation but no matter how good he is he can't counter a tremendous amount of data that suggests one thing with his personal experience.
 

Dark 3nergy

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He's not disqualified from the conversation but no matter how good he is he can't counter a tremendous amount of data that suggests one thing with his personal experience.
Thats correct; personal opinions do not equal facts. Facts is data compiled and analyzed over xx periods of time. True data doesnt lie, personal opinions are swayed and too often biased.
 

CRASHiC

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Yeah, anecdotal evidence from the ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE METAGAME.

Honestly, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, and M2K aren't "outliers," they aren't some sort of freak exception from these rules. They are THE best players of the game. THEY are at the top of the metagame. That does not disqualify them from discussion of the results in any possible way.
By that lgic, Jigglypuff is the best character in Melee, its so clear.
 

Master Raven

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You know, I just want to clarify that I actually do appreciate Crow's contribution to this debate, but honestly, we need to be more civil here. I'm not really a fan of this ****-talking to the opposition.
 

Turbo Ether

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M2K, anyone that doesn't know how to fight Diddy Kong, should observe JJ Wolf. Fantastic Wolf main from NE. He has a good record against Diddy Kongs, and vids on youtube. His techniques apply to a lot of the cast, and even you top MKs could learn a thing or two.
 

Tien2500

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You know, I just want to clarify that I actually do appreciate Crow's contribution to this debate, but honestly, we need to be more civil here. I'm not really a fan of this ****-talking to the opposition.
Honestly compared to other areas of the internet this is quite civil. You should see the NFL message boards around playoff times :laugh:
 

PND

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They aren't disqualified, if you had read anything you'd know that they simply do not show any trends. There is a difference (a basic one).
Actually, I've read far more of this thread than I ever really cared to. I'm not going to dig up the post links or anything because I don't care enough, but several times anti-banners have made claims such as. . .

"ADHD said this"
or
"Ally did this"
or several other variations, to which pro-banners have specifically replied

"But they are exceptions. They are outliers to the trend."

Which is flagrant disregard for the accomplishments. They are the best players, they understand more about this game and the metagame than most of us could ever hope to. And their accomplishments as top players are being trivialized because "They are too good" and they can't be pidgeon holed into a trend.

That's straight up bull****.

**** this community, I'm gonna go play Melee.
 

Overswarm

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Is this the post we should stop quoting?

Here we go.

My raw results are here: LINK
Feel free to peruse that, try to reproduce my results if you want, and most importantly, if you want this sort of ranking set up for your own character so you see who's who within your main, you can find all that info here.

----------
PURPOSE
----------

The main idea here is to determine the skill distribution among characters. This should give, as objectively as is possible, a display of which characters are "popular" at various skill levels.

If a character is simply better than another, one would expect the shape of these curves to be the same, but one curve to be higher than another at any given rank, vertically in the plots I will make.

If a character is simply more popular than another, one would expect the curve at any particular skill level to stretch out to higher ranks, horizontally in the plots I will make.

Of course, the two ideas are difficult to separate. We will therefore search for convenient reference points in the data to compare one character to the next.


-----------
METHODS
-----------

I created a Python script (provided in the zip file above) to use Ankoku's tournament results .txt exports and used Ankoku's scoring system to determine how much each player scored in each tournament for 1. the past 13 months of complete data (January 2009 through January 2010), and 2. the past 6 months (August 2009 to January 2010) of complete data.

These players and results were binned into the characters they represented. Within each character, players with identical names are automatically combined, and for each of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, and Marth player, I manually went through the lists to find names that appear to be of the same player and combined them.

I admit that I do not know the tournament scene as well as I might; it is possible that I failed to merge some results under separate player names that should have been together. I invite people to inspect my .xls files in the .zip above to verify I didn't miss anyone.

It should be noted that no integer number of months would exactly reproduce Ankoku's current score per character, but 6 months came pretty close. Either Ankoku's export wasn't a complete represenation of his data, or the method of treating odd cases was different from mine. I have no reason to believe the errors are systematic, so the results should not be biased either way.


----------
RESULTS
----------









Above, I show, for each of the past 6 and 13 months, how many points each player scored with a given character as a function of their rank within that character, at two different levels of zoom for each data set, for each of the five best overall performing characters.

(Note: I know I accidentally changed the rank scales between 13 to 6 months. It's probably still fair, though, since 13 months has more people in it than 6. If this really bugs someone, I'll go through the effort to fix it and reupload.)


Below, I show histograms: they show how many PEOPLE scored between X and Y points. At each successive bin, the point values are doubled. These histograms should be better at displaying how the tournament scecne looks for the medium-low skill levels.






Fun fact:
In the past 6 months, Ally is the 9th highest ranked Meta Knight. (Overswarm is 10th).


----------------------------
ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS
----------------------------

At this point this report becomes slightly more subjective.

Looking at the top few spots, it is obvious that the top player of each of Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy Kong are outliers and do not fit their characters' overall trends.

For Diddy, Marth, and Falco, except for the top 3 players, those characters appear to be farily close in tournament performance from one to the next, though it appears Falco wasn't as good a year ago as he has been in the past half year. Snake has been better than those three, but the degree by which Meta Knight is better than Snake at all ranks is much higher than the amount by which Snake is better than the others.

This much could have been guessed just by Ankoku's summed data in his ranking list, but this does show that Meta Knight isn't worse than other character(s), in which case his high overall performance would require a very, very long "plateau" at a medium-high skill level, much longer than for Snake, to make up for the point difference observed.

As for popularity versus character goodness, first let us look at the 13 month data again.



There is a "kink" at around rank 6 for both Meta Knight and Snake, indicating the rank at which the players drop off from being high level players to being the next level down, indicating equal popularity. Throughout this zone, each MK player scored more than 2x as many points as each Snake. At 13 months, the rest of the data is pretty smooth and does not lend itself well to differentiating between skill and popularity; suffice it to say that MK's dominance does not disappear at any level, although some of the other characters do cross each other from rank to rank.



In the 6 month data, there are two usable kinks in Snake's data, and one in Meta Knight's data. For high level play, MK is about 2x better a character than Snake and slightly more popular among players at that level. It is not immediately obvious where to link up the second kink, but the two extremes of justifiable locations both say that MK is more popular, and differ in saying whether at medium-high level of play MK continues to be a 2x better a character at 1.5x the popularity or if instead MK is 3x as popular as Snake at that level.

Without a specific reason to believe that the selection of Snake or MK changes greatly between high and medium-high play, I'm inclined to believe that MK simply continues to be slightly more popular but 2x as good as Snake, and 3-5x as good as other characters.

Looking at the tails of the rank plots, it is clear that the amount by which MK has been outperforming other characters at ranks up to 27 or so has increased dramatically between 13 months ago and 6 months ago. For the next 10 ranks it's less pronounced, then it becomes roughly equivalent to the 13 months ago level.

Now let us compare the 13 month and 6 month histograms. The amount by which MK is more popular than other characters at lower levels doesn't appear to have changed much, but at medium and medium-high levels of play it does; his increased level of dominance appears to come primarily from there.


A side note: there are a lot more players in the 13 month data than in the 6 month data; a bit less than half as many, it appears. This would be consistent with both the following theories:

1. At every month, the set of players that make it to the top 8s in some tourney is selected in such a way that the players who have earned points in previous months are preferred NOT to hog the same spots again, so that the total number of unique players is linear in time.
2. The number of competitive players (that is, those who play brawl and actually have a shot at getting top 8 or better) has gone down by more than 50% in the past 13 months.

The first theory is obviously wrong. I can't prove or disprove the second with the data I have right now, but it is clear that the competitive Brawl community has been shrinking by some amount.


So, how much better is MK than other top characters? Let me finish with one more graph.
 

Swordior

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??? I'll never understand people complaining over a character. MK may be good for some people, but he isn't really cheap. All characters have advantages and disadvantages, and just cause some are easier to see than others doesn't mean a character should be banned. As someone without a main, I get to play with a large multitude of characters and MK still doesn't stand out to me as the *ALL SUPERIOR* character. It all is personal preference, and you shouldn't lose your main in a competition becuase people think he is. Besides, if you really are good at the game, MK should pose you no problem.:bee:
 

Tien2500

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??? I'll never understand people complaining over a character. MK may be good for some people, but he isn't really cheap. All characters have advantages and disadvantages, and just cause some are easier to see than others doesn't mean a character should be banned. As someone without a main, I get to play with a large multitude of characters and MK still doesn't stand out to me as the *ALL SUPERIOR* character. It all is personal preference, and you shouldn't lose your main in a competition becuase people think he is. Besides, if you really are good at the game, MK should pose you no problem.:bee:
No offense but you are obviously very new and should learn more about smash before commenting.
 

Overswarm

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??? I'll never understand people complaining over a character. MK may be good for some people, but he isn't really cheap. All characters have advantages and disadvantages, and just cause some are easier to see than others doesn't mean a character should be banned. As someone without a main, I get to play with a large multitude of characters and MK still doesn't stand out to me as the *ALL SUPERIOR* character. It all is personal preference, and you shouldn't lose your main in a competition becuase people think he is. Besides, if you really are good at the game, MK should pose you no problem.:bee:
Actually, we've proven everything you've said to be false. It isn't even an opinion anymore, it's just a lie.
 
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