Official Metaknight Discussion

[Justblaze647]

OS, are you actually trolling?

No wonder you're the # 1 poster in this thread lol

Also, just a heads up, Swordior: posting like that is an easy way to get your comments ignored. Just for future reference.

Edit: or maybe not lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

WOW that's not even close to true, it's not even close to double. Low level play MK dominates against other people because he's eaiser to pick up and everyone wants to pick him up then they copy off each other and everyone loses to things like not DIing shuttle loops and then tornado spam. At high level play I'm the only MK in the top 4 players in the world and the other ones that rank high are people I trianed, and even still Ksizl the next highest ranking MK had to use Lucario to beat Judge after his MK lost and he's like 0-17 vs ADHD in tourney sets (or 0-14). ADHD didn't come close to losing at pound at all, and I barely beat Ally the majority (usually 50:50) in my most practiced MU. 3-27 times WTF you guys are mad crazy.

edit - mk does NOT beat diddy

RTFT

Great stuff, Crow. That took a lot of work.

When the time comes anti-ban will more than likely respond to all the information you've gathered and the points you've made. So as Xyro said make sure you organize and keep everything together so that anti-ban can respond to everything in an organized manner.

When is time? Just out of curiosity.

OS, are you actually trolling?

No wonder you're the # 1 poster in this thread lol

Also, just a heads up, Swordior: posting like that is an easy way to get your comments ignored. Just for future reference.

Edit: or maybe not lol

Well, if you're M2K, maaaaybe not...

 

[Raziek]

Actually, I've read far more of this thread than I ever really cared to. I'm not going to dig up the post links or anything because I don't care enough, but several times anti-banners have made claims such as. . .

"ADHD said this"
or
"Ally did this"
or several other variations, to which pro-banners have specifically replied

"But they are exceptions. They are outliers to the trend."

Which is flagrant disregard for the accomplishments. They are the best players, they understand more about this game and the metagame than most of us could ever hope to. And their accomplishments as top players are being trivialized because "They are too good" and they can't be pidgeon holed into a trend.

That's straight up bull****.

**** this community, I'm gonna go play Melee.

We've already LONG established that while the very top's opinion DOES matter, this is not just about them. This is about every other person who plays smash, not just the fact that DEHF, Ally, and ADHD can beat M2K.

Yes, they're awesome players, yes, they're pretty cool guys.

But they're a whopping 0.0004%ish of the community. Sorry, but to ignore the evidence presented in the face of one man's opinion would be like letting a terrorist take a bomb into an airport because you'd hurt his feelings if you said no. Tough luck, it happens.

 

[Overswarm]

When is time? Just out of curiosity.

Knowing Omni, right at the last possible second so no one can reply. That's what happened last time.

 

[Justblaze647]

OS, you're in the BBR. Tell them to make a new poll pronto.

 

[Omni]

When is time? Just out of curiosity.

Considering OS and the crew have been gathering this information over a period of a few weeks... maybe even a month or so.

...I'd say to properly address each point in the manner of a response deserved would take quite some time.

 

[6Mizu]

LOL @ ^

Also, what does it matter if everyone keeps mentioning the "good" players. People only use them if they're trying to prove something.
Such as your haven't tried hard enough to learn the MK MU....until your at ADHD's or Ally's Lvl.

 

[Sosuke]

Omni is planking this debate.

 

[Kewkky]

Knowing Omni, right at the last possible second so no one can reply. That's what happened last time.

Well, gonna keep an eye on this thread just in case I have a chance to say something (doubt it'll be a public debate thing, but who knows?). I might not be as big an authority figure as OS or Crow, but I want to do whatever I can whenever I'm given the opportunity.

 

[Omni]

Omni is planking this debate.

If you'd like to respond to an argument the size of the Bible during your free time be my guest.

 

[Justblaze647]

Well, gonna keep an eye on this thread just in case I have a chance to say something (doubt it'll be a public debate thing, but who knows?). I might not be as big an authority figure as OS or Crow, but I want to do whatever I can whenever I'm given the opportunity.

Awww Kewkky you're awesome in your own right.

We <3 you lol

 

[Tien2500]

If you'd like to respond to an argument the size of the Bible during your free time be my guest.

I think the Bible is considerably longer...

But seriously people its a long complicated post so a little time is reasonable. I also think we should analyze it carefully rather than having a new poll right away. I also think it is significant enough to have its own thread.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Awww Kewkky you're awesome in your own right.

We <3 you lol

Wow, I'm agreeing with Justblaze, this is an event.





Also, I'm still complaining about the lack of love shown, I've been reasonable throughout the entire 4 debates on this, and I was in the process of doing basically what crow did.


So not fair, no love.

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

Pro-Ban's reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr26BIoOFnw
Anti-Ban's reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVWsdV7CJQc

So can criteria be based off of all gathered information now?

@Adum: You gotta post pretty pictures to make us love you.

 

[PND]

We've already LONG established that while the very top's opinion DOES matter, this is not just about them. This is about every other person who plays smash, not just the fact that DEHF, Ally, and ADHD can beat M2K.

Yes, they're awesome players, yes, they're pretty cool guys.

But they're a whopping 0.0004%ish of the community. Sorry, but to ignore the evidence presented in the face of one man's opinion would be like letting a terrorist take a bomb into an airport because you'd hurt his feelings if you said no. Tough luck, it happens.

Using true but misrepresented statistics, countless studies have managed to (jokingly, mind you) convince large a popularity of people in several different societies to ban H20 and abolish women's suffrage. Why is this relevant? Because the public is stupid and that's why we in North America have representative governments. Trust in the people who have devoted their lives to dealing with these top level issues for the sake of their community free of bandwagon thought and pressure.

Moral of this story? People will believe anything if you put a graph or newspaper headline in front of them.

Speaking of stories, Story time:
A long time ago in a magical land called Pound 4 a wonderful game called Super Smash Brothers Melee was played by hundreds and enjoyed by thousands of players across the globe. Now, things were not all perfect in Melee land. The evil dictator Fox McCloud, AKA the best character in the game with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, had a nefarious plot to over centralize the Melee metagame. Lately many heroes of the smash community had fallen prey to Evil Dictator Fox's shenanigans, and his dominance started to show itself trending higher and higher.

Fox's plan to overcentralize the metagame was so effective that in the top 32, twice as many players chose Fox than the second most popular character. . . Fox was everywhere. No matter where you turned, Fox was there with his advantages across the board. it seemed that the metagame had become Fox-centric. Fox massacred everyone who wasn't prepared for his furry-ious onslaught.

But all was not lost for the Melee community, no. Despite evil Fox's best efforts the top two placings at the magical tournament were taken by the noble and fair Jigglypuff princesses. It seems Fox's despicable plan had been thwarted.

Several ardent Fox supporters cried "Outliers! The Jigglypuff princesses are just TOO good, Fox is still the most unstoppable force in Meleeland. Convert to Fox or Die!"

But the Meleeland community, under the wonderful rule of the Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, and Marth princess royalties knew that those claims were merely a fairytale, and despite the large amounts of Fox supporters diversity could flourish, so long as they abolished bandwagon fear-mongering. Instead, the Meleelanders celebrated the achievements of the heroes Mango and Hungrybox and chose not to disregard those heroes' valiant efforts to be the very best in the game (like no one ever was) and thwart over centralization. And many players learned from the Jigglypuff princesses' efforts and the metagame kept evolving into a fantastic but still unknown future.

And everyone lived happily ever after and wavedashed on rainbows and ****. Except Fox, because he's a furry.

The end.

Notice any parallels between the Fox Fiasco and the Metaknight Massacre? I sure do! A character with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, a trend towards more usage as time goes on leading to a state which could be (mis)construed as overcentralization, and recent strings of large tournament results where characters OTHER than MK/Fox have taken the top spots. Thank god the Melee community is way more mature about this.

Moral of this story: Melee is awesome and you should all play it.

 

[Charlesz]

PND MIKE just captured the essence of melee. 10/10

 

[*Tyson*]

To play Fox at that high of a level is very difficult and takes an very large amount of tech skill to do so. Even then one screw up can mean your stock.

Sounds nothing like MK at all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like story time. Tell me another one papa PND, PLEAAAAAASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarKO X]

Fox has been beating by a number of characters from a number of people multiple times.

MK gets beat once or twice by someone, and then the dream is dead.

 

[Kewkky]

Also, I'm still complaining about the lack of love shown, I've been reasonable throughout the entire 4 debates on this, and I was in the process of doing basically what crow did.

So not fair, no love.

People have shown that they prefer "graphs, tables and explanations on why the graph is like that" over "explanations and theory only"... I can't say I blame them, more like blame myself for not thinking about it before. Everytime someone said "the graphs don't work because blah blah blah", I figured even more graphs would get them to reply even harder "the graphs don't work because blah blah blah", and it would mean that I worked my *** of for no reason... That was an unbearable thought. D:

Obv Crow gets props for going at a different route than most of us here, and taking it the right way.

 

[Raziek]

Using true but misrepresented statistics, countless studies have managed to (jokingly, mind you) convince large a popularity of people in several different societies to ban H20 and abolish women's suffrage. Why is this relevant? Because the public is stupid and that's why we in North America have representative governments. Trust in the people who have devoted their lives to dealing with these top level issues for the sake of their community free of bandwagon thought and pressure.

Moral of this story? People will believe anything if you put a graph or newspaper headline in front of them.

Speaking of stories, Story time:
A long time ago om a magical land called Pound 4 a wonderful game called Super Smash Brothers Melee was played by hundreds and enjoyed by thousands of players across the globe. Now, things were not all perfect in Melee land. The evil dictator Fox McCloud, AKA the best character in the game with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, had a nefarious plot to over centralize the Melee metagame. Lately many heroes of the smash community had fallen prey to Evil Dictator Fox's shenanigans, and his dominance started to show itself trending higher and higher.

Fox's plan to overcentralize the metagame was so effective that in the top 32, twice as many players chose Fox than the second most popular character. . . Fox was everywhere. No matter where you turned, Fox was there with his advantages across the board. it seemed that the metagame had become Fox-centric. Fox massacred everyone who wasn't prepared for his furry-ious onslaught.

But all was not lost for the Melee community, no. Despite evil Fox's best efforts the top two placings at the magical tournament were taken by the noble and fair Jigglypuff princesses. It seems Fox's despicable plan had been thwarted.

Several ardent Fox supporters cried "Outliers! The Jigglypuff princesses are just TOO good, Fox is still the most unstoppable force in Meleeland. Convert to Fox or Die!"

But the Meleeland community, under the wonderful rule of the Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, and Marth princess royalties knew that those claims were merely a fairytale, and despite the large amounts of Fox supporters diversity could flourish, so long as they abolished bandwagon fear-mongering. Instead, the Meleelanders celebrated the achievements of the heroes Mango and Hungrybox and chose not to disregard those heroes' valiant efforts to be the very best in the game (like no one ever was) and thwart over centralization. And many players learned from the Jigglypuff princesses' efforts and the metagame kept evolving into a fantastic but still unknown future.

And everyone lived happily ever after and wavedashed on rainbows and ****. Except Fox, because he's a furry.

The end.

Notice any parallels between the Fox Fiasco and the Metaknight Massacre? I sure do! A character with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, a trend towards more usage as time goes on leading to a state which could be (mis)construed as overcentralization, and recent strings of large tournament results where characters OTHER than MK/Fox have taken the top spots. Thank god the Melee community is way more mature about this.

Moral of this story: Melee is awesome and you should all play it.

And melee is HOW many years old? 8 and a half, I believe? Brawl won't last that long, and what you just described is basically just trading ADHD and Ally for Hbox and Mango.

Not to mention your story has it backwards, since Fox is trying to assert his dominance in your story, with his character calling the Jiggs players outliers. OOPS?!

And do you imply that you have to be stupid to believe Crow's data? If you do, you've only proven yourself to be the kind of person in Hero's anti-ban reaction video he linked.

To sum up your post: " People will believe anything, right or wrong! Screw you guys, Ima goin' back to melee. =("

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

acutally, fox isn't that hard to play. SH bair, shine. sh bair, shine. nair. shine. usmash. grab. Technical consistency hasn't been much of an issue sense '05. Its much harder to play on that level mentally for a whole tournament.

heres tournament data from my last one:
1: Kels ($174.00)
2: Cosmo ($87.00)
3: Tink ($29.00)
4: MaineCoon
5: Matt :shiek:
5: Mendoza
7: Ray Chun :shiek:
7: Vro
9: ORLY?
9: Sveet
9: Quaz
9: Henrick
13: Bzoo
13: The Goon Platoon :shiek:
13: Mundungu
13: Mars

-- Pools cutoff
17: Gibby :shiek:
17: ENG
17: JTK
17: DarkSonicBrawler99
21: Wale
21: Shawn White
21: John :shiek:
21: Sanchez
25: Lo0shKiN
25: Spit
25: TDC
25: Andrew
29: McSnapple

fox used almost twice as much as the next popular character, with overall more "points" because he got first.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pro-Ban's reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr26BIoOFnw
Anti-Ban's reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVWsdV7CJQc

So can criteria be based off of all gathered information now?

The point was to do it before data was gathered so as not to bias it, all we've got left is empirical MUs, mathmatical MUs, and opinion polls, which quite frankly I don't think the community wants to build a criteria off.


The lack of this data existing was key, (it also would be a heck of a lot more ****ing AFTER a criteria was formed and agreed upon by community consensus).


*builds vault*

*puts melee and SFIV inside*


I'll be here waiting for the fallout to clear, anyone wanna join me?

@Adum: You gotta post pretty pictures to make us love you.

Using true but misrepresented statistics, countless studies have managed to (jokingly, mind you) convince large a popularity of people in several different societies to ban H20 and abolish women's suffrage. Why is this relevant? Because the public is stupid and that's why we in North America have representative governments. Trust in the people who have devoted their lives to dealing with these top level issues for the sake of their community free of bandwagon thought and pressure.

Moral of this story? People will believe anything if you put a graph or newspaper headline in front of them.

Speaking of stories, Story time:
A long time ago om a magical land called Pound 4 a wonderful game called Super Smash Brothers Melee was played by hundreds and enjoyed by thousands of players across the globe. Now, things were not all perfect in Melee land. The evil dictator Fox McCloud, AKA the best character in the game with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, had a nefarious plot to over centralize the Melee metagame. Lately many heroes of the smash community had fallen prey to Evil Dictator Fox's shenanigans, and his dominance started to show itself trending higher and higher.

Fox's plan to overcentralize the metagame was so effective that in the top 32, twice as many players chose Fox than the second most popular character. . . Fox was everywhere. No matter where you turned, Fox was there with his advantages across the board. it seemed that the metagame had become Fox-centric. Fox massacred everyone who wasn't prepared for his furry-ious onslaught.

But all was not lost for the Melee community, no. Despite evil Fox's best efforts the top two placings at the magical tournament were taken by the noble and fair Jigglypuff princesses. It seems Fox's despicable plan had been thwarted.

Several ardent Fox supporters cried "Outliers! The Jigglypuff princesses are just TOO good, Fox is still the most unstoppable force in Meleeland. Convert to Fox or Die!"

But the Meleeland community, under the wonderful rule of the Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, and Marth princess royalties knew that those claims were merely a fairytale, and despite the large amounts of Fox supporters diversity could flourish, so long as they abolished bandwagon fear-mongering. Instead, the Meleelanders celebrated the achievements of the heroes Mango and Hungrybox and chose not to disregard those heroes' valiant efforts to be the very best in the game (like no one ever was) and thwart over centralization. And many players learned from the Jigglypuff princesses' efforts and the metagame kept evolving into a fantastic but still unknown future.

And everyone lived happily ever after and wavedashed on rainbows and ****. Except Fox, because he's a furry.

The end.

Notice any parallels between the Fox Fiasco and the Metaknight Massacre? I sure do! A character with no disadvantaged matchups when played perfectly, a trend towards more usage as time goes on leading to a state which could be (mis)construed as overcentralization, and recent strings of large tournament results where characters OTHER than MK/Fox have taken the top spots. Thank god the Melee community is way more mature about this.

Moral of this story: Melee is awesome and you should all play it.

Stuff, I believe the point is that there is data to back this up this time, we know the melee characters have their ups and downs cause we've seen a consistent pattern, but clearly outperforming on a statistical basis on the alleged scale.


I personally ripped apart the previous tournament data (and you can bet that when I analyze this completely, I'll do the same if possible) but I don't think we're the ignorant masses at this point, for the most part we're the people who at least reasonably understand the issues, and most of us (if only because of my insistence) know how to analyze statistics to a reasonable degree.


You can't just dismiss all possibility like that.



Agreed at the moral though.

People have shown that they prefer "graphs, tables and explanations on why the graph is like that" over "explanations and theory only"... I can't say I blame them, more like blame myself for not thinking about it before. Everytime someone said "the graphs don't work because blah blah blah", I figured even more graphs would get them to reply even harder "the graphs don't work because blah blah blah", and it would mean that I worked my *** of for no reason... That was an unbearable thought. D:

Obv Crow gets props for going at a different route than most of us here, and taking it the right way.

I was kidding lol, I understand why.


Still annoyed at how when he announced he was doing it, he got this treatment when I said I was working on basically the same thing... forever ago.




Also, I want cake, will there be cake?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

OS, you're in the BBR. Tell them to make a new poll pronto.

Not a good idea. Really not a good idea.

Considering OS and the crew have been gathering this information over a period of a few weeks... maybe even a month or so.

...I'd say to properly address each point in the manner of a response deserved would take quite some time.

I suppose this makes sense... Except that you've had all means of time to gather your information and/or make a counter-argument that isn't either completely irrelevant, completely refuted by Crow!'s post, or completely refuted by any number of Overswarm's. Also, we've had two weeks since this thread started, approximately...

 

[Overswarm]

PND, could you show what is wrong with the data we've collected?

I suppose this makes sense... Except that you've had all means of time to gather your information and/or make a counter-argument that isn't either completely irrelevant, completely refuted by Crow!'s post, or completely refuted by any number of Overswarm's. Also, we've had two weeks since this thread started, approximately...

Like I said: wait until last minute so no one can respond, so that way he only need the appearance of being right.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

OS can you show us what is wrong with the data collected? What is wrong with "over centralization" or "lack of the majority of the cast being tournament viable"?

MK's worst matchup is 50-50... in melee there are 2 characters with their worst MU being 50-50 (fox and sheik) and at the same time decimate almost every character in the cast.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PND, could you show what is wrong with the data we've collected?




Like I said: wait until last minute so no one can respond, so that way he only need the appearance of being right.

Well, what I'm doing is basically explaining why you're saying this from a logical standpoint, instead of a historical one. Also, hoping he'll respond to me because I'm not stating it as a fact. Omni?

EDIT: Oh wow Sveet. 50/50 outside of oneself ≠ 50/50 in ditto. That would be like saying "Oh, akuma has a 50/50 and it's his best (loltypo) worst matchup, but oh look, Sheik and Fox in melee have the same thing, worst matchup is 50/50, so Akuma can't possibly be too good." See what I'm saying? If you mean it otherwise, name me one 50/50 matchup with MK that isn't the ditto.

 

[Raziek]

OS can you show us what is wrong with the data collected? What is wrong with "over centralization" or "lack of the majority of the cast being tournament viable"?

MK's worst matchup is 50-50... in melee there are 2 characters with their worst MU being 50-50 (fox and sheik) and at the same time decimate almost every character in the cast.

Deflection and denial of the data. You can't possibly mean to say you think a game where one character wins almost everything is more fun than one where this isn't the case.

 

[adumbrodeus]

OS can you show us what is wrong with the data collected? What is wrong with "over centralization" or "lack of the majority of the cast being tournament viable"?

MK's worst matchup is 50-50... in melee there are 2 characters with their worst MU being 50-50 (fox and sheik) and at the same time decimate almost every character in the cast.

Lol, Sheik goes 50-50 with the spacies? Not likely. If she did, she would be the undisputed best.


While I appreciate the melee comparisons, it's better more balanced game at the top tiers, so it's not as useful a comparison as we'd like.

 

[Omni]

I suppose this makes sense... Except that you've had all means of time to gather your information and/or make a counter-argument that isn't either completely irrelevant, completely refuted by Crow!'s post, or completely refuted by any number of Overswarm's. Also, we've had two weeks since this thread started, approximately...

You're going to have to accept the fact that:

1.) I'm not obligated to respond
2.) By choosing to respond there's no "deadline" for me to make a response

Be content with the fact that I said will respond pro-ban's entire argument because I assure you no one else feels like doing it.

 

[rathy Aro]

But you can't get an idea of why people are quitting without proper data, you just get a couple of peoples' reasons, there's no correlation. People might be quitting in general because they like pie but because people who dislike the metagame with MK tend to be less apathetic (which is probably true), the [arbitrary small small here for an example that is not intended to reflect the actual population of because who quit because of this] people that quit because of MK show up but the silent majority will not.

I would like to here a couple of peoples reason tbh, but aside from that point that's only half of the thread's point. The other half is to find out who, if anyone would quit if mk is banned. Do you see any problem with that?

 

[Overswarm]

OS can you show us what is wrong with the data collected? What is wrong with "over centralization" or "lack of the majority of the cast being tournament viable"?

You have not collected any data for me to refute.

If you're merely looking for an abstract philosophical argument:

Overcentralization is one of the banes of competitive gaming. Surely you can be aware of this merely by looking around the forums; over 50% of the smash community saying "**** that guy" and it being full of top players must not be a joke. Would your melee community have a league of top players saying "ban Fox" if one brought it up?

If you wanted to look at other games, you can see the distaste for the idea with characters like V-13 and the like, but moving past all that we know this:

Depth and variety in gameplay leads to a better game.

Answer me this:

If Fox was still in Melee, but Sheik, Captain Falcon, Falco, Marth, and Jiggs were removed, would you consider Melee balanced? This is basically what we have in Brawl. Yes, Peach could possibly do the trick, but all in all you'd only see a small handful do it. There might be an Ice Climbers popping up here and there, but they'd have some trouble (with the added trouble of all the extra peach mains, no doubt!) and you'd also see only a relative few of them as well.

We have this situation in Brawl. This is obviously not a clear copy of the situation, but putting yourself in that situation is a pretty important one and helps you understand where the Brawl community is coming from.



What you are trying to imply is that there's nothing wrong with having an overly dominant character. As for the "majority of the cast viable" part, I'm not sure where you got that from. If you're talking about Metaknight being anywhere from 3-27x better than the rest of the cast then yes, that is quite hard to swallow. I don't think I have to go into detail as to tell you why; players often like to be ranked by their ability rather than their character.

Anyways, if your opinion is that having a one character game where everyone plays dittos is fine, there's no convincing you of anything and there's no real reason to argue. You simply hold purist beliefs that can't change regardless of evidence. If that's the case, merely state so and be on your way unless you can explain why this is a good stance to have. It's certainly a minority.


I asked Omni, the anti-ban voice, if he would accept the current results if ADHD and Ally didn't exist. He answered with a straightforward "no", so to him overcentralization and the dominance of Metaknight is an issue; this is why it is continually brought up. Whether you personally believe it to be an issue, most do not want a one character game, or even a 3 character game out of a roster of 36.


Granted, you can't just ban a character for that reason, right? You'd have to have a good result from it! All the research we've done has shown that the rest of the characters in Brawl are actually pretty evenly matched; no one or two characters will rise up to take MK's spot. We've also been vying for a temporary ban to collect the data to prove it, as it is impossible to do anything but theorize without it.

MK's worst matchup is 50-50... in melee there are 2 characters with their worst MU being 50-50 (fox and sheik) and at the same time decimate almost every character in the cast.

In melee we have statistical trends showing obvious character variety at the very top. By Brawl standards (excluding MK) it is very low, but for Melee's roster it's actually incredibly balanced. "Tournament viable" characters can be considered to be Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, and Captain Falcon.

What those in Brawl saying "Snake can do it" or "Diddy can do it" is the equivalent of saying that "Peach can do it" because of Vidjo way back in the day and Armada now.... except weaker. We are aware of their ability to see the victory screen, but see no statistical evidence that those characters are worthwhile choices vs. MK.

 

[Overswarm]

You're going to have to accept the fact that:

1.) I'm not obligated to respond
2.) By choosing to respond there's no "deadline" for me to make a response

Be content with the fact that I said will respond pro-ban's entire argument because I assure you no one else feels like doing it.

Excellent! I'll start writing it.

 

[PND]

The data is fine and valid. All the respect in the world to Crow for compiling it. It's the interpretations that I have the problem with.

Every fighting game has a best character with really good matchups, and is usually the most popular character because of it. Melee, as I alluded to, is one of those games. So is Brawl, Metaknight is not a special case in the fighting game community, or even the smash community. Pikachu in 64 was also another dominant force who didn't even have a neutral matchup, they were all advantages. Pikachu is still around -- the community has developed ways to deal with the character. Like Fox. And Sheik early in Melee's lifecycle. And now Metaknight.

Metaknight is not in the realm of brokenness because he can be beaten by top players at top level tournaments. Ergo, while his usage is trending upwards, at the top levels of play it's been proven that other top level players at that top level of play using top level characters can beat him. That is, of course, that these top level players aren't using characters where they actually attack with tops -- in that case, pick someone other than ROB

Characters that have proven they can compete with Metaknight:
Snake
Diddy
Ice Climbers
Falco

Looks healthy enough to me, and that's not even counting characters like Marth or Sheik where apparently the ratios are starting to shift more towards neutral.

P.S. the Jiggs are the outliers because they are performing better than their character's tier indicates. Thus they are really, really good and don't follow any sort of trend. Or at least, that's how you guys would dismiss their results.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You're going to have to accept the fact that:

1.) I'm not obligated to respond
2.) By choosing to respond there's no "deadline" for me to make a response

Be content with the fact that I said will respond pro-ban's entire argument because I assure you no one else feels like doing it.

I'm just worried you'll do exactly what OS claims you will. No offense, but you haven't exactly proven the most... reliable debate opponent.

At this point though, if you don't respond, I doubt it will go well for you.

EDIT: At this point, I think it's time to spearhead a temp ban. Seriously.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If fox existed in melee without marth falco sheik falcon or puff... fox would still be the best in the game, and fox wouldn't be banned.

If anyone brought up banning fox we would all laugh at him.

I guess thats just the difference between the communities. Melee just plays their game and has fun. Brawl has to whine because the top character's worst matchup is even with diddy and snake...

lol you guys worry about matchups to much. Seriously 6-4 matchps are not that bad

 

[Overswarm]

Metaknight is not in the realm of brokenness because he can be beaten by top players at top level tournaments. Ergo, while his usage is trending upwards, at the top levels of play it's been proven that other top level players at that top level of play using top level characters can beat him. That is, of course, that these top level players aren't using characters where they actually attack with tops -- in that case, pick someone other than ROB

I've mained Metaknight for well over a year now.

Here's some research by Flayl:

Top MKs: M2K, Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik


From October 1st to January 31st:

Anti
- 3rd out of 39 at Gauntlet 10-03-09, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 3rd out of 53 at DAPHNE I, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 4th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Meep (IC)
- 1st out of 34 at Bum Presents: The Gamers, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 74 at PolyBrawl 11.28, can't find any brackets - outplaced by Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)

Dojo
- 1st out of 71 at HOBO 19, can't find any brackets
- 1st out of 71 at Phase 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 39 at Phase 3, can't find any brackets
- 4th out of 50 at HOBO 21, lost to Hylian (IC/G&W) and Razer (Snake)
- 2nd out of 46 at Final Smash 8, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 48 at Phase 5, no brackets yet

DSF
- 1st out of 43 at CGC XII, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 49 at CGC @ SFSU 13, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 109 (split with Tyrant) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 3rd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)

Judge
- 2nd out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl. 2, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 31 at LoLiS 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 30 at Kuntasm, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 1st out of 42 at LoLiS 5, lost to Anther (Pikachu) once
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Shadow (MK) and Ksizzle (Lucario)
- 3rd out 27 at Michigan Ball Z, forfeit (don't know when or why)

Ksizzle
- 7th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Atomsk (???)
- 2nd out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 24 at Daisho's Tournament 11/21/09, can't find any brackets - lost to Cable (DK)
- 4th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Ally (Snake)

Mew2King
- 1st out of 36 at LoLiS 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl2, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 39 at lain's Lollapalooza, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 31 at LoLiS 4, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 30 at Kuntasm, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 89 at Winterfest, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 29 at Wait, AGAIN?!, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 30 at Delta Upsilon II, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 53 at OC #2: M2k's Monthly Donation Fund, 0 sets lost

Seibrik
- 2nd out of 41 at Gigabits - A Fall Brawl, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK)
- 2nd out of 24 at WATO 8.5, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK/Snake)
- 2nd out of 89 at Winterfest 2009, can't find any brackets - lost to Mew2King (MK)
- 1st out of 28 (split with CO18) at WATO 9, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 39 at FIU Brawl Tourney 1/23, lost to Nick Riddle (ZSS) twice

Shadow
- 4th out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Meep (IC) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 2nd out of 45 at KTAR, lost 2x to Ally (Snake)
- 2nd out of 25 at Powerplay Gaming Tournament, lost to Atomsk (???) and Ally (Snake)
- 3rd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 3rd out of 29 at Paradigm Presents: WAIT, AGAIN?!, can't find any brackets - outplaced by ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 33 (split with DM Brandon) at DNA Gaming USA #2, lost to DM Brandon (MK)?
- 1st out of 34 at Syracuse Smash 2, 0 sets lost

Tyrant
- 3rd out of 43 at CGC XII, lost to DSF (MK) and michealHAZE (Marth)
- 5th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Meep (IC)
- 2nd out of 120 at R3, lost 2x to DEHF (Falco)
- 1st out of 18 at The BR Act: Program 1, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 109 (split with DSF) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice

Non-MK players that beat them in more than one instance:
ADHD (Diddy)
Ally (Snake)
Atomsk (???)
DEHF (Falco)
Meep (IC)
Razer (Snake)

Number of top MK players I listed - 9
Number of players that beat them on more than one instance - 6

Are you trying to imply that "top players" can beat Metaknight when out of 9 top MKs only 6 people were able to win 2 or more times against those nine in a 4 month time span?

It seems infinitely more likely that Metaknight is a problem and someone to main, rather than a hurdle to overcome.

I guess thats just the difference between the communities. Melee just plays their game and has fun. Brawl has to whine because the top character's worst matchup is even with diddy and snake...

Could show me evidence for this? Everything we have found shows that ADHD and Ally are good matchups vs. MK, not Diddy and Snake, and those characters certainly as tournament viable (although they are above the rest of the cast).

 

[Omni]

I'm just worried you'll do exactly what OS claims you will. No offense, but you haven't exactly proven the most... reliable debate opponent.

At this point though, if you don't respond, I doubt it will go well for you.

Don't worry about me.

If I was worried or didn't think anti-ban couldn't respond, I wouldn't be here saying that I will have a response.

What pro-ban needs to do is wrap things up and organize their entire argument into one piece. Seems to me that they're still in the midst of building their case which is fine, but it can be best addressed once their case is organized and complete.

 

[Overswarm]

Don't worry about me.

If I was worried or didn't think anti-ban couldn't respond, I wouldn't be here saying that I will have a response.

What pro-ban needs to do is wrap things up and organize their entire argument into one piece. Seems to me that they're still in the midst of building their case which is fine, but it can be best addressed once their case is organized and complete.

Right now we're pretty much out of things to address and are basically dispelling ignorance and lies from the anti-ban side of things.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I would like to here a couple of peoples reason tbh, but aside from that point that's only half of the thread's point. The other half is to find out who, if anyone would quit if mk is banned. Do you see any problem with that?

Then I question the point of the thread, because you won't get a large enough chunk of SWF and you won't get a representative sample.


Here's a possible correlation: Very few of the people who would quit are regulars on tactical.