Official Metaknight Discussion

[Master Raven]

We can't ban a character based on artificially dumbing him down alone, or we would've banned Jigglypuff and Peach for their ability to stall in Melee.

 

[Juushichi]

Honestly, I'm interested in seeing what the results would be like if MK was ban for a few months from tournaments. Would it be too much of a deal to have a grace period of MK not allowed in tourneys for like 3 - 6 month? Would there still be a dominate character or would there actually be a variety of characters actually winning tournaments? How much harm could actually happen if we tried this out?

Now, this isn't particularly an argument either way, but I feel it would be interesting to see the players who main Meta Knight (or have mained MK since the game's release) adjust to not having to play him. I know there are people that have various secondaries and a lot of them can play multiple characters, but it would be interesting to see.

Maybe it would even promote usages of a variety of characters in a tournament by one person. (Like counter pick characters and the like). I don't see how that would be bad for the community at this point. Might even promote some life in boards that don't see much use.

 

[MarKO X]

gliding under the stage while your opponent has invincibility frames during a new stock is simply ingenious play.

 

[RDK]

I don't see how [...] items [...] leave things up to chance.

Do you see anything strange about this statement?

I hope I've helped you see clearer.

 

[D. Disciple]

Seems to me more of a way to put yourself in a better position.

Yes gliding under and back can do that, but doing it continuously though can be verified as stalling.

It's a toss up with that, just like planking. I still see no problem with it, we didn't have a problem with it in melee, when you can regrab the ledge multiple times to keep your invincibility frames, and especially when someone just respawned.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Do you see anything strange about this statement?

I hope I've helped you see clearer.

Way to edit out the rest of the statement in an attempt to make me look stupid or not credible.

You and I both know that that is not what I meant, nor what I said. If you have anything to say about WHAT I ACTUALLY POSTED I'd be glad to read and respond to it.

 

[solecalibur]

Seems to me more of a way to put yourself in a better position.

gliding under the stage while your opponent has invincibility frames during a new stock is simply ingenious play.

Once per edge grab but when its obvious that there in the middle of the stage or on the other side your just stalling

 

[Jack Kieser]

You can always IDC? You do realize it's banned, right?

And how does not being able to item-infinite on command have anything to do with it still being an infinite?

Technically, you can always IDC, just very small amounts at a time since it's so hard to know when it's being done; apparently, M2K did it to Dojo in a Finals match and no one picked up on it. So... just because it's banned doesn't mean people won't still do it and get away with it.

Also, since when did you care about infinites? D3's infinite is legal. The IC's infinites are legal. Wall CG's and tilt locks and all that fun stuff is legal, even if all infinites are banned past 300%. So... item infinites (if they exist, because I'm not sure which ones you guys are referring to) would be limited the same way.

Oh, and I hope that item CP explanation wasn't too hazy or anything.

 

[RDK]

Way to edit out the rest of the statement in an attempt to make me look stupid or not credible.

You and I both know that that is not what I meant, nor what I said. If you have anything to say about WHAT I ACTUALLY POSTED I'd be glad to read and respond to it.

Are you or are you not saying that you don't see how the items from the ISP list leave things up to chance?

Or was I wrong in parsing your statement for clarity? Because that seems like the gist of what you were saying.

Technically, you can always IDC, just very small amounts at a time since it's so hard to know when it's being done; apparently, M2K did it to Dojo in a Finals match and no one picked up on it. So... just because it's banned doesn't mean people won't still do it and get always with it.

Also, since when did you care about infinites? D3's infinite is legal. The IC's infinites are legal. Wall CG's and tilt locks and all that fun stuff is legal, even if all infinites are banned past 300%. So... item infinites (if they exist, because I'm not sure which ones you guys are referring to) would be limited the same way.

I don't have a problem with infinites per se; I was just responding to his ridiculous posts that you should somehow "suck it up" when getting hit with an infinite.

Oh, and I hope that item CP explanation wasn't too hazy or anything.

No actually I'm writing a response to it now.

 

[Flayl]

Yes gliding under and back can do that, but doing it continuously though can be verified as stalling.

It's a toss up with that, just like planking. I still see no problem with it, we didn't have a problem with it in melee, when you can regrab the ledge multiple times to keep your invincibility frames, and especially when someone just respawned.

In Melee you had the option to wavedash to the ledge at the same time someone dropped off and hog it from them.

There is no consistent option in Brawl which is why it's a special case.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't even understand what the hell it is you're trying to say.

You can always IDC? You do realize it's banned, right?

And how does not being able to item-infinite on command have anything to do with it still being an infinite?

Also planking falls under general stalling, thus it is banned.

Edit: also also the idea of "planking" as a special technique is wrong. It would be more accurate to say we ban stalling activities instead of specific techniques done by specific characters, because the act of MK ledge-grabbing in and of itself isn't broken; it's when it's done as a stalling tactic which is cause for a ban.

Planking isn't really stalling in the average case. It's not as if you're refusing to fight your opponent when he approaches. It's just incredible easy to **** said approaches very hard. Not really stalling, just extremely good turtling.

 

[RDK]

Planking isn't really stalling in the average case. It's not as if you're refusing to fight your opponent when he approaches. It's just incredible easy to **** said approaches very hard. Not really stalling, just extremely good turtling.

Exactly my point. But it becomes stalling when the player refuses to come out of the ledgegrab and attempts to milk the rest of the match without engaging the other player. M2K does it all the time, which is pretty much why it's banned.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Are you or are you not saying that you don't see how the items from the ISP list leave things up to chance?

Or was I wrong in parsing your statement for clarity? Because that seems like the gist of what you were saying.

Going off of the list of items that I posted, yes, I do not think that THOSE SPECIFIC ITEMS leave things up to chance. They are all telegraphed, and although they may give an unfair advantage to one character or another based on their power, that is not a result of them being left to chance.

Removing the part of my statement that explained my reasoning and making it look like I think items are fair game is a ridiculous thing to do, since everyone that had read my post could realize that I clearly did not think that to be the case. Normally, while debating, one will respond to an argument with an argument of their own, as opposed to bending the argument of their opponent in a way that favors them.

Now if you'd like to respond to my entire post this time as opposed to being a prick and editing my post in an attempt to make me look like an idiot, be my guest, I'd be happy to debate with you.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Vrael, I think RDK is trying to say that even Neutral items leave things up to chance because they spawn at random locations; historically, that has mattered a lot to him.

 

[MarKO X]

In Melee you had the option to wavedash to the ledge at the same time someone dropped off and hog it from them.

There is no consistent option in Brawl which is why it's a special case.

everyone doesn't have an instant edgehog where they dash off the ledge and QC towards the ledge to grab it?

that sux.

 

[Orion*]

"If you want to talk about Metaknight, do so here. "

stop talking about items. wrong thread and to be honest nobody cares. yes your item cp list is nice, and someday maybe it will be like brawl+ and you can have side events. infact, i may try it at the next regional i host (im dead serious actually, if i can get enough people in NJ/NY to be interested in playing it after reg. brawl).

However, the reason items are off is that nobody wants them. and anybody coming in here looking for a mk debate doesnt really care.

 

[RDK]

Going off of the list of items that I posted, yes, I do not think that THOSE SPECIFIC ITEMS leave things up to chance. They are all telegraphed, and although they may give an unfair advantage to one character or another based on their power, that is not a result of them being left to chance.

Removing the part of my statement that explained my reasoning and making it look like I think items are fair game is a ridiculous thing to do, since everyone that had read my post could realize that I clearly did not think that to be the case. Normally, while debating, one will respond to an argument with an argument of their own, as opposed to bending the argument of their opponent in a way that favors them.

Now if you'd like to respond to my entire post this time as opposed to being a prick and editing my post in an attempt to make me look like an idiot, be my guest, I'd be happy to debate with you.

Your'e missing the point. Either that, or you're saying that some items are random and others are not?

It doesn't matter what items are used; any and all of them reward players in a random fashion. How is this a hard concept to understand?

Take a look at this statement by you:

They are all telegraphed, and although they may give an unfair advantage to one character or another based on their power, that is not a result of them being left to chance.

What does this even mean? "Based on their power"? "Not a result of them being left to chance"?

Please explain to me how items can be implemented without a chance element. That is the point I was getting at.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Exactly my point. But it becomes stalling when the player refuses to come out of the ledgegrab and attempts to milk the rest of the match without engaging the other player. M2K does it all the time, which is pretty much why it's banned.

Also planking falls under general stalling, thus it is banned.

O.o

Contradiction much? It's your point that it isn't really stalling, but it is stalling and therefore banned.

Also, it still isn't stalling then. Is it stalling when a character in street fighter sits on one side of the field, waiting for the opponent's approach which he knows he can **** (I wish I could find this old vid of IIRC Abel vs. that electro dude that demonstrates this nicely; the whole second half of the second round was basically the electric troll guy sitting in the corner and the Abel player trying to figure out how to approach around the ball attacks. Is this stalling? No, it's just really good turtling.

Now MK can turtle very nicely. In fact, turtling with him is almost retardedly good. Which is why I say unban planking. It's almost exclusively an MK tactic at this point, so if we unban it and MK suddenly starts ****** everyone... Eh, what then?

 

[Jack Kieser]

"If you want to talk about Metaknight, do so here. "

stop talking about items. wrong thread and to be honest nobody cares. yes your item cp list is nice, and someday maybe it will be like brawl+ and you can have side events. infact, i may try it at the next regional i host (im dead serious actually, if i can get enough people in NJ/NY to be interested in playing it after reg. brawl).

However, the reason items are off is that nobody wants them. and anybody coming in here looking for a mk debate doesnt really care.

A ) I try not to bring them up myself for that very reason.
B ) People are considering different configurations of items as a recourse to banning MK, so, yeah, some of it IS on topic. Obviously, some people debating MK do care in some way.

 

[Flayl]

everyone doesn't have an instant edgehog where they dash off the ledge and QC towards the ledge to grab it?

that sux.

Aerials stop characters from doing that. The ones good enough for planking anyway.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You're missing the point. Either that, or you're saying that some items are random and others are not?

Some items are clearly more random than others. Let's take a look at a Bob-Omb, for example. These little *******s fall from the sky, and explode if they hit you. Now this, as opposed to a Beam Sword, which falls to the ground and waits there until someone picks it up. Once someone picks it up, the opponent can clearly see when it is going to be used.

It doesn't matter what items are used; any and all of them reward players in a random fashion. How is this a hard concept to understand?

What? So you're saying that each and every item is at the same level of "brokeness?" Well they obviously spawn randomly, if that's what your talking about then yes, of course they give a random advantage. I assumed that no one was disputing this and that you were instead talking about the actual advantage that each item gave to the person using it once they picked it up.

What does this even mean? "Based on their power"? "Not a result of them being left to chance"?

You're a smart guy, I think you should be able to figure out that not every item has the same amount of power, and therefore the more powerful/rewarding it is, the more likely it will be banned.

But anyway, if you are talking about spawning randomly, then you're correct, and I have no disputes with that. I seem to have overcomplicated it, I apologize.

At this point I don't even remember how we got on this subject. I say we get back on topic.

 

[Orion*]

A ) I try not to bring them up myself for that very reason.
B ) People are considering different configurations of items as a recourse to banning MK, so, yeah, some of it IS on topic. Obviously, some people debating MK do care in some way.

if item brawl legitimately replaces vbrawl to keep mk from getting banned then i will not only **** myself, i will mail it to you with an 100$ check in the middle.

let me use a jack kieser explanation.

i could technically relate anyone caring to anything, so in regard to that lets say that you hypothetically care about the influences that taco bell has on peoples perceptions selling chiwawas, therefore to give them a better market chance, you create an argument and try to sway a dog company to give chiwawas a better image face on television and cosign an argument that taco bell has to change their current maskot to a snickerdoodle because nobody cares about it anyway, oh wait back to my original point the chiwawas are now in a better face image and now the dog company that originally took on the the agreement to cosign an argument to stop taco bell from selling their Z grade meat products with the face of an innocent small chiwawa on their logo now sells chiwawas at a percent rate from 40.17 to 40.37 so obviously your impact on a larger debate company with the slogan said by this adorable chiwawa "yo quero taqo bell" being change to "let me stick my beef in your taco" by a parrot with a sombrero on it since the snickerdoodle didnt sell has portrayed an effect that people do infact care about image solicitation on dogs and you getting a small puppy company to cosign with you has affected your sale rates of chiwawas by 0.20 percent.

TL:DR

nobody cares

edit: btw jack i honestly dont really have an issue with items, i just dont feel this is the thread for them

 

[Throwback]

I cbf reading all the pages, but the suggestion for a temp MK ban is perfect.

I support a trial 6-month MK ban

 

[Turbo Ether]

stop talking about items. wrong thread and to be honest nobody cares.

You don't speak for everyone, sir. I'm interested in any possible game settings that could potentially benefit the game's competitive integrity.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I am not complaining about meta. I am one of those people that feel he should not be banned. You misread my post.

I may have mis read it only since the way you worded your post seemed like you were frustrated with the match up on all kinds of levels. Care to dive deeper into that? I may not know much about Peach, but doesnt she have at least a few good tools to combat the cave dweller?

 

[Orion*]

You don't speak for everyone, sir. I'm interested in any possible game settings that could potentially benefit the game's competitive integrity.

this thread isnt about the games integrity. its about METAKNIGHT

edit: TLDR you play wow ether, you have no soul<3

we need more diddy/wolf friendlies, those where fun :D

 

[Turbo Ether]

this thread isnt about the games integrity. its about METAKNIGHT

Yes. A character who presence in the metagame may or not be detrimetal to the competitive integrity of the game.

Edit: I play WoW pretty casually. Moderation is the key.

 

[Orion*]

if we're considering items in this thread then we should consider all forms of hacked brawl.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm ok with that.

 

[Orion*]

im not. the game sucks now

they got rid of marths double fair >_<

omg brb trout dinner.

edit: ^ about B+

project M hype though. sexy trailerrr

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This thread has gotten derailed.

 

[Kishin]

Metaknight has a sword.

 

[Turbo Ether]

im not. the game sucks now

they got rid of marths double fair >_<

omg brb trout dinner.

edit: ^ about B+

project M hype though. sexy trailerrr

Yup, i'm way more interested in Project M than B+.

 

[Orion*]

This thread has gotten derailed.

no its okay to talk about items and brawl+ in here i asked

 

[Orion*]

Yup, i'm way more interested in Project M than B+.

its cause chiebo is ru(i)nning it

*blocks name search*

edit: sorry for double posting, i figured people would say something by now, its a really active thread

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

no its okay to talk about items and brawl+ in here i asked

I think it's funny how you, the person who came in here to complain about the thread being off topic, are the chief contributor to the derailment.

Items are not hacked, why are we discussing Project M?

 

[Orion*]

I think it's funny how you, the person who came in here to complain about the thread being off topic, are the chief contributor to the derailment.

Items are not hacked, why are we discussing Project M?

because its a way to balance brawl while keeping metaknight mains happy. SOME people care about it, like items so its obviously worth talking about

 

[MarKO X]

Well since we're gonna talk about an he's not getting banned anytime soon, if ever, and all that ever happens is pro-ban comes up with "new" stuff and anti-ban keeps saying the same sh*t over and over, how about we talk about universal strategies on how to defeat MK, since, you know, he's all beatable but few people know how to deal with it.

Like, let's discuss:
1) How to defeat an aggro MK.
2) How to defeat a fairly defensive MK.
3) How to defeat a MK that shows clear intent on timing you out without engaging in tactics that you could call a TO over for. (IDC, stalling, etc.)
4) How to fight an MK offstage in both the offensive and defensive position.
5) And maybe more... makes no sense in beating a dead horse... let's beat the broken horse.

 

[highfive]

Mk has a cape and mask.

Why exactly does this thread exist in the brawl TACTICAL discussion thread?

 

[Kuraudo]

1.) No problem.
2.) No problem.
3.) Ban Meta Knight
4.) 90% of the time, you lose. Good day, sir.
5.) ...

...

...

...

...

BAN META KNIGHT.

[EDIT]

If MK was built without those gay tactics being possible, he would be a legitimate top tier character.