[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[DekuBoy]

I think he should get an electric ball from SuperStar Saga as his neutral B.

 

[sundayseclipse]

Looks like I missed a lot...

Oh well, I'll just bring up something I've been thinking about for a while. Luigi's moveset.

While Luigi's moveset has become a lot more diverse from Mario's with Brawl, I still feel it an be much more unique and Luigi can be completely de-cloned. I know, I know, Sakurai needs to focus on de-cloning other characters like Lucas, Falco, Ganondorf, Toon Link (especially), etc., but I'm only saying if he ever got around to it, this is what I think Luigi's completely de-cloned moveset should appear like.

STANDARD B: ~ Luigi Cyclone
This move used to be Luigi's Down Special, but now pressing B will unleash the Luigi Cyclone. Pressing B repeatedly will allow Luigi to rise as he is rotating, knocking away opponents.

SIDE B: ~ Green Missile
Luigi ducks down and charges up power, and as you release the B button, Luigi will release his energy and fly with tremendous force, headfirst, in the desired direction. The more this move is charged, the farther Luigi will fly and the more damage he will do.

UP B: ~ Super Spin Jump
This is the first replaced move. Instead of the Super Jump Punch, similar to Mario's, Luigi gets a new move. This move is seen in Super Mario World. Anyway, Luigi will jump spinning rapidly, scoring consecutive hits as he connects with opponents. The coin animation also appears. As Luigi reaches the Climax of his jump, he begins to come down hard. Any opponent under him will be smashed into the ground if he connects at the end of the move. This move is a lot faster than his previous Up B move.

DOWN B: ~ Poltergust 4000
I can't remember if it was 3000 or 4000, so don't flame for this. But anyway, this is Luigi's second and most unique replaced move. Luigi pulls out the famous vacuum and begins vacuming. The vacuum will suck up proectiles fired at Luigi and store them. Up to five projectiles can be stored. When five projectiles are stored, you can blow out a single ball of energy gathered from all the projectiles. The damage done from the ball will be the average damage that would have been done by all five projectiles.



That's what I came up with. Don't give me anything like "Toon Link deserves a de-cloned moveset before Luigi", because I know that. I'm just saying, if it ever happened, this is what I would want it to look like. So what do you think?

OMFG NO. hes no clone. they're moves prior to the mario bros thats why they both use them, just like FE down b. -_- luigi is good the way he is

any way jazz string camp 8 am-3pm so im not able to post much
regaurding bosses way to go ace
samurai for f zero rep eh why not idc

toon links

nuetral b- bow n arrow(prior to loz)
side b- hammer
up b- leaf thingy
down b-um bombs

fs ideas
cyclones come and take you out
2. CHOO CHOO
as you can see im very sleepy.

 

[DekuBoy]

Personally I think that moveset is great but the down B is identical to Mr. G&W. Make it suck up people instead. But that's like Dedede. Argh.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Had to see Michael Jackson's memorial before posting this. So sad to watch. :'(

@Pieman0920: Here's how I picture it working.

Over B: Wind Waker
Description: Allows Toon Link to manipulate wind for approx. 2 minute upon activation.

How to use:

• Tapping over B again will cause a brief, strong gust of wind to blow. You can blow certain items, projectiles, and opponents (determining on how close they are to you) with this.
  
  
• Tilting over B will cause a softer, steadier stream of wind to blow, much like Whispy Woods. Wind will continue to blow upon holding down the B button, allowing the player to move (steer) Toon Link with the control stick. You cannot blow items, projectiles, or opponents with this.

Usage: Primarily used in combination with Toon Link's midair jump. TL will take out the Deku Leaf if you hold down the jump button long enough. Once it's out, you can use the wind to hover, somewhat elevate yourself (barely), and steer TL to wherever you please.

EDIT: About Luigi, I really think he shouldn't be tampered with. Save the de-cloning for the real clones, like Toon Link.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Back before Brawl came out, I made up a Toon Link moveset that basically used the wind waker to set the wind either left or right until it was changed again. The only real thing I used this for though was his Up B which was the Deku Leaf, as well as possbily being a way to screw up other people's recovery. If it were to work like how Rachel's win mechanic in BlazBlue does, I'd think it'd be a down B move where you pull the thing out, and then change the direction from there until you cancel out of it. Of course this doesn't work as well as Rachel's since it'd require the down B to be used first and then the exit, which may take up too much time.

Alternatively, there could be some sort of indicator placed on TL (glowing, or something; idklol <_<) after he uses the Wind Waker move. While the indicator is active, he moves slower, but can freely control the wind's direction with the control stick. To get rid of the indicator, use the special move again, and the wind stays in its direction. At this point, he's free to move at his normal speed (outside of speed buffs/debuffs from the wind, of course).

Every time that special is used, the old wind current is set to a neutral state.

At least, that's what I'd like it to work like.

 

[Kencan]

Suggestions to make Smash a better game- "Super" High Quality IDEAS

currently working on 4 aspects:
1. combo attraction meter and what it takes to charge it up
2. getting rid of the bars
3. working on possibly a system where you can do additional air dashes only for combos in the air...
4. and finally the thing stated directly below rite here

all of the mechanics below combine with one another to form a seamless experience of epic aerial lift and battles and combinations...not dis-including the combo-attraction meter, hover meter, speed boost gains, also air dashes, and also the force meter which is as well is an essential component now unlike how it was before...obviously it's hard to use all of these mechanics at once and press several buttons at the same time in order to use it in the air because that would be way too many things to press at once and i doubt you would have the time to press all of them anyway so perhaps we can somehow figure this out in the future...atm i am thinking of melding some aspects together to create a maximum of only 2 or three buttons or things you have to press, worry about, or activate in the air...

*************************************EDIT*************************************

1. well the parry system works perfectly, because if you miss the parry you only take damage to your shield thus there are no consequences to missing parries like in certain other games such as Street Fighter 3rd Strike...thus even if it is necessary to make the parries very difficult to pull off such that they were more luck than skill so that even at the endgame high skill levels you wouldn't have people parrying successfully all the time and thus messing up the game...it still would be accessible even for beginners and thus even out the playing field since there are no consequences to missing parries with Smash's innate shield system...

2. perhaps if you hit shield+down you put your fist to the ground or white light of force comes shooting up from the ground and creates some space between you and the opponent this would be an interesting move to put on a heavy such as Ganondorf.

3. also you know when you hit the shield button it takes a bit of a delay before the shield actually comes up?, well perhaps if when you bring the shield up at the exact right moment that an attack hits you there is this situation where you recover minutely faster from the shield, but this would be excessive and give the defensive player too much of an edge in available options (it is not a good idea to do shield canceling a.k.a. a type of L-Canceling for this particular aspect for this sole reason), so better yet how about the following idea: the shield just "breaks ice for a split second" and you shrug the opponent off with neither player being able to throw counterattacks afterwards too effectively so it's not exactly a parry where you can retaliate immediately afterwards but it prevents the enemy player (as well as yourself) from following up with further attacks and gives you some breathing room...this ability may be possible to be usable on a large scale but the first idea probably you only want to give to a certain select character or two you don't want everybody doing the first idea that would be mad chaos...

4. ***EDITED YET ONCE AGAIN*** ***THE FOLLOWING SECTION IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE***: in order to implement a system where the shield has certain weak points so that the game will be more fun and you won't have people constantly bashing each other's shield to no end without it having any effect, the shield will have 3 "breaking" phases: the 1st breaking phase will come if your shield gets pummeled enough, in this 1st phase your shield will break off for a second but he will still be in full control of his character (either this or if the balance doesn't work out since it is too much of a weakness and/or the slower characters won't be able to take advantage of this brief instant, then you can make it so that after this phase goes into the 2nd phase the shield will be super armor where you can't get knocked-down or knocked-back and you only take minimal "overdrive scratch" damage like 1-5% or something and you will still be in full control of your character), the second phase comes later on and this is where his shield breaks and he also gets either stunned for a brief short instant or while (once again this may not be balanced and maybe you can find better ideas) or his shield breaks and his speed slows down a bit for a short while while still being in full control of his character and possibly also having super armor at the same time, and the third phase that comes shortly after is the normal phase where his shield breaks and he is stunned for a long while. *this multiple-breaks shield system balances slower, stronger characters and gives them a chance to exploit this weakness by pounding away at the shield...*

6. parry system changed- with a twist possibly also pushes the opponent backwards depending on how accurately you parry it if you parry it extremely accurately they get pushed or knocked backwards or knocked down farther and faster-this is good because the parrier cannot instantly unleash hell on the other player which would put the guy doing the parry in too much of an advantageous situation, another interesting variation would be you can minimally "drag" the opponent towards you, make him crouch, or bring him to the ground for a split second if you nudge the shield backwards or down at the exact right moment, a problem with this that i haven't worked out yet is if they are coming back from off-stage and want to attack you in the process to get back on-stage this will give the "pusher" too much of an advantage...and you don't want it so that if they are off-stage you cannot push them...this would be too much of an "additional mechanic")

5. ***EDIT*** the "aerial-lift" (all things regarding making air manuevering and battles epic) is currently under construction by me...

6. ***NOW HERE COMES THE SPECIAL PART- for the combo attraction meter where you press a button to attract to opponents in the air in order to pull off tremendous aerial lift and unleash epic aerial battles--whichever direction you move the joystick in is the direction you will "attract to", so this adds alot of difficulty to the game because the opponent may fly far and fast erraticly in one direction but you have to have a quick and fast enough reaction time in order to attract to the right direction before he flys out of reach...and it is a hit or miss scenario***

7. all of the mechanics below combine with one another to form a seamless experience of epic aerial lift and battles and combinations...not dis-including the combo-attraction meter, hover meter, speed boost gains, also air dashes, and also the force meter which is as well is an essential component now unlike how it was before...obviously it's hard to use all of these mechanics at once and press several buttons at the same time in order to use it in the air because that would be way too many things to press at once and i doubt you would have the time to press all of them anyway so perhaps we can somehow figure this out in the future...atm i am thinking of melding some aspects together to create a maximum of only 2 or three buttons or things you have to press, worry about, or activate in the air...

**************************************EDIT***********************************

KevinMorrissey12 (I msged him in the AIM, he said he closed both of my original threads for me and that i can post here and he allows it I have PROOF OF HIM SAYING SO I HAVE A SCREENSHOT IF ANY ADMIN WANTS ME TO MAIL THEM IT (originally it was posted in the general discussion than i moved it to the workshop because an admin directed me here, now people are telling me i should post it in the SSB4 thread and that i am spamming the forums so just to make sure i don't get deleted...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Smash Concepts


well first off, i don't know where to post my suggestions (can someone tell me if General Discussion is the right place on this site i heard this site is the largest community) i can't find any official places to do so...smashdojo has no place for suggestions and sakurai probably would ignore me anyway so...if there is a way to get these ideas through to sakurai that would be obviously so awesome...there is a smash blog and forum at ign and i initially wanted to go there since i saw that the Dragon Ball Z fanclub was there and the creators opened up a suggestion page on IGN, but smash had no such thing there even though IGN is an international site and would've been my best chance, i'll try posting this in their forums but since i'm not a paid member it will probably get deleted after a day (happened last time):

one thing to keep in mind is this page is only designed for new mechanic ideas, the actual balancing of the mechanics along with the balancing of the game including numbers, damage, knockback, etc. won't be discussed here too much in-depth as we will leave it up to the designers to resolve these balance issues since it is too lengthy to post such details here...

DUE TO FLAMES HERE IS THE DISCLAIMER TELLING YOU TO READ EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU POST NONSENSICAL FLAMES including some people who should know better: that's why i said alot of it is optional but some of it is necessary, try reading b4 you post , i know it wasn't meant to be competitive, but i said that that doesn't mean it can't be...it can be both for families who just like to mash and also for a more serious format (unless nintendo purposely wants their games to be as simple as possible which wouldn't make sense because smash is quite a complicated game)...man why don't you people read what i wrote first instead of flaming right off the bat...
i'm trying to make this game as good as possible instead of posting nonsensical posts pls try to contribute instead of having a negative effect...alot of these ideas are very top notch ideas and i'm sure the creators would agree, and don't you guys want a better game so instead of flaming let's all try to contribute and make our own suggestions thx...THE FOLLOWING COMBOS SECTION HAS NOW BEEN TOTALLY OPTIONALIZED AND ALSO KEEP IN MIND STILL THAT EVERYTHING HERE IS OPTIONAL, due to flames from people who haven't read the part where i said everything is optional but some are necessary i will make it clear here so that it doesn't take away from the Smash "feel" of the game...it's pretty obvious there is a heck of a lot of resistance to change here...but in order to make things better...sometimes you have to change things...look...as it stands smash brothers was always a complicated game right from the start (it was always one of the most complicated nintendo games)...but that didn't mean it couldn't be for families who wished to forgo many of the added options and just button mash...can i suggest this to the brawl+ (modded community version of brawl) guys? if maybe you guys can do that for me...where do i find the brawl+ family? because alot of times the commercial developers look at such things and thus make it into a reality...you don't have to learn much with this version either you can forgo the added options and just button mash as usual as well...all of the added features aren't necessary for you to be able to play the game normally...(in fact...all that's really necessary for families is to learn to get back onto the ledge and ko an opponent and simple things like that that they'd have to know anyway with the original smash),

**************************RESISTING CHANGE***************************

PLEASE PEOPLE TRY READING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WRITE FIRST AND PUT IT INTO THOUGHT A LITTLE BIT BEFORE YOU START MAKING NONSENSICAL STATEMENTS THANK YOU...CERTAIN PEOPLE REALLY SHOULD KNOW BETTER...for the mod community i'm sure they are alot smarter hopefully *HOPEFULLY* USE YOUR IMAGINATION PEOPLE I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF 5 BARS ON YOUR SCREEN EITHER I WASN'T MEANING IT LITERALLY...IT'S JUST A SYSTEM...i'm not taking away from the uniqueness of smash at all (if by uniqueness you mean empty space and not enough features)...i'm only adding to it...as it stands smash has way too little features and could use alot more...plus it is not overly complicated and even if it was the complexity could be overlooked by families who just want to button-mash and forgo the added complexities anyway...because as it stands that's what families usually do anyhow they don't really get into the complexities that smash always had anyway...(smash was always a complicated game from the start)

...now i'm gonna start things off with bad ideas at first because this is the way i wrote it if i put all the best ideas at the top first in order to catch the eye better than it would ruin the flow i wrote it in i think so here goes...

okay okay, i'll start off with some eyecatchers i'll try and see what i can revise to make the beginning more eye-catching:

1. *FLASH* (i will suggest something new as well here because currently the game doesn't incorporate these mechanics too fully yet): first of all, we should revert back to classic fighting game tradition and take away a lesson, fighting games are meant to be played with an intrinsic fighting system, traditional games have high-block (raise your hands sideways with palms facing downward parallel to the ground femininely kung-fu style) and low-block (lower your hands sideways with palms facing downward and hands parallel the ground) while this may not necessarily be feasible with smash the following gives us some of that intrinsic feel back (as it stands the current melee fighting system involving the shield/attack/defense is very washed out, oversimplified and far too mundane: you know how when you press and hold the shield you can also nudge and move the shield slightly in a certain direction well the shield should innately be easier to break and only if when someone hits you you nudge the shield in the correct direction of the hit do you take less damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc. to the shield and also when you nudge in the correct direction at the exact right moment it becomes a parry and with a twist possibly also pushes the opponent backwards depending on how accurately you parry it if you parry it extremely accurately they get pushed or knocked backwards or knocked down farther and faster-this is good because the parrier cannot instantly unleash hell on the other player which would put the guy doing the parry in too much of an advantageous situation, another interesting variation would be you can minimally "drag" the opponent towards you, make him crouch, or bring him to the ground for a split second if you nudge the shield backwards or down at the exact right moment, a problem with this that i haven't worked out yet is if they are coming back from off-stage and want to attack you in the process to get back on-stage this will give the "pusher" too much of an advantage...and you don't want it so that if they are off-stage you cannot push them...this would be too much of an "additional mechanic"); also the shield should have different weak points in it which allow it to take more damage, knockback, "clinch", etc. etc., the shield having the most weaknesses in its middle (because it is hardest to hit someone in the middle because it repels you when you stand in the middle of the other person), shield having second weakest area in the back of the player, third weakest (thus being stronger and harder to break) at the diagonal between the top part of the shield and the back part, the 4th weakest at the top part (all these parts go into the center where the closer it to the center the weaker it is combined with the weakness of the surface areas listed above at the same time and are calibrated as such), the 5th part is at the diagonal between the front and the back, and the strongest part would be the front, and also the lower part of the shield in front will also be slightly weaker than average so "tripping" your opponent is encouraged, the shield will also be stunned longer at the weak spots, or repelled further or dragged further into the player attacking the shield based on the placement of the hit (this is already a mechanic in smash, but it would be cooler if they extended this concept and added "clinching moves" that drag the player into you either with or without his shield on thus "clinching him" this allows for combos to be pulled off without the combo/attraction meter (also you should be able to somewhat clinch your opponent in the air albeit ***far, far*** less (and only by exploiting certain weak areas of the opponent and applying pinpoint attacks can you pull this off [i'm sure the developers will better this mechanic in so many ways], this refines smash more so that when you hit people in the air it isnt as fluid and they wouldn't fly far and fast as insanely instantly as they do now allowing you to pull off more stunts in the air and giving it an intrinsic feel), the shield will also be colored in shades with the strongest part being brightest. also the shield will also have this following new mechanic (of course throwing will have to be nerfed otherwise a person would have too few defensive options and too many open weaknesses and you'll have to get in much closer in order to throw): ***EDITED YET ONCE AGAIN*** ***THE FOLLOWING SECTION IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE***: in order to implement a system where the shield has certain weak points so that the game will be more fun and you won't have people constantly bashing each other's shield to no end without it having any effect, the shield will have 3 "breaking" phases: the 1st breaking phase will come if your shield gets pummeled enough, in this 1st phase your shield will break off for a second but he will still be in full control of his character (either this or if the balance doesn't work out since it is too much of a weakness and/or the slower characters won't be able to take advantage of this brief instant, then you can make it so that after this phase goes into the 2nd phase the shield will be super armor where you can't get knocked-down or knocked-back and you only take minimal "overdrive scratch" damage like 1-5% or something), the second phase comes later on and this is where his shield breaks and he also gets either stunned for a brief short instant or while (once again this may not be balanced and maybe you can find better ideas) or his shield breaks and his speed slows down a bit for a short while while still being in full control of his character, and the third phase that comes shortly after is the normal phase where his shield breaks and he is stunned for a long while. *this multiple-breaks shield system balances slower, stronger characters and gives them a chance to exploit this weakness by pounding away at the shield...* ***END OF SECTION*** the area and the way and method you hit someone determines how fast and far they get knocked-back also by the same token where you hit them (the torso, arms legs or head determines how much additional or less damage they receive, as well as "clinching", etc. etc. (by this time you realize that i haven't included every possible detail that is up for the developer's imagination), also this is something completely new.


2. this section is optional and perhaps only given to exclusive characters such as heavies (to make them less underpowered) or certain speedy characters: another thing they should add is a third "Hectic bar" (it's sort of like taking a minimal adrenaline shot for rage, Boost bar or Speed bar? these two are good cause you can hit 3 levels "Speedy or Speed", "Speed Boost", and "Super Speed Boost" little yellow words that pop up on the screen which i'll explain now)" which adds a "third dimension to this otherwise bland flat and 2d game, where the more and faster you move around or jump without doing any other attacks or moves the more you build up a medium sized meter which allows you to gain an [indiscernible] amount of speed the more its charged up the faster you will move and the meter will also diminish rapidly if it's charged up more it will diminish faster if it's charged up less it will diminish slower (this is called "Speed", "Speed Boost" or the next step is when the bar hits the max limit given that you can assume a defensive stance and evade your opponent for a long enough time in order to build it up), in order to "save the bar for a later time" you press a certain button and it saves it at that point so if you press it fast enough you should be able to save it at either "speed" or the maximum amount "speed boost" and the bar will pop a pale yellow glow, also when you save it at the max amount "speed boost" you can take a lucky chance at hitting the jackpot and gain the "super speed boost" below the hectic bar appears an ultra-tiny annoyance-free line bar which gives you a jackpot chance where the bar goes left and right really fast 3 times (after which it cancels) whenever it reaches the extreme right if you press correctly (if not it cancels) it will give you a super-speed boost save that can only be used as a "save" so that whenever you want to unleash it you can (you may wish to map the "super speed boost" jackpot bar to a different key? otherwise you'd have to cancel it purposely or wait until it cancels if you only want to use your "normal save" and this would waste your time sort of (everything becomes faster even your air dodge and gravity! and also you can do less stuff offstage so maybe you wish to opt out of this, so this leads to interesting options), also because you have to press an extra button in order to save your speed boost and also to unleash it this adds a third-dimension to the game and allows for pros to create a larger gap between themselves and noobies because it takes skill to manage the extra buttons which would normally slow a noob down...

3. so altogether there are 5 bars the super, combo, force hectic, and hover bars, what is the hover bar? exactly what it says allows for low gravity (AN ***INDISCERNIBLE*** AMOUNT FOR THOSE WHO DON"T KNOW HOW TO BE A LITTLE MORE CREATIVE WITH THEIR BRAINS) so you can stay in the air longer and do more stuff offstage and it's activated by holding down a button and this bar automatically refills over time (which is an advantage in brawl despite the obvious disadvantages of low gravity compared with melee which imo is a little too fast but is more exciting (fox falls a million miles a second)), you want to be able to do a little bit more offstage and make offstage gameplay an actual element of the game which is an advantage in brawl cause of low gravity, in melee you could probably only do one or two thing offstage before you had to get back onstage

ground dashing (sort of like wave dashing) is also a feature that can be ***considered***. but with this version you can only do ground dashes every now and then and not repeatedly (I don't want to add any more bars so there will be no ground dash charge bars luckily for you people, but maybe just one more bar a bar where you can only dash a limited amount of times before it has to recharge for a long time so you can use dashes again), also: a final note is that ground dashing also adds to the variety in dodges because currently you can only dodge in one way (unless you count moving or jumping away but i'm only talking about the dodge system here) and that is to roll dodge behind the other player if you add in dashing then you can also dash behind him on top of just roll dodging (obviously as well as dashing away or closer to your opponent to pull off a surprise speed manuever...)

4. ***EDIT-AERIAL SECTION UNDER CONSTRUCTION*** be able to do more in the air (and make aerial combat a viable option but very difficult to pull off so that you always have the feeling you remain grounded while adding in the concept of "lift") such as link aerial combos, new ideas such as extremely short distance "air dashing" (sort of like the original air dodge in melee that you can pulll off in all directions but shorter? so you can't use it to get back from offstage too easily except it was a dodge and wasn't an actual move, this gives you more opportunities to do stuff offstage cause you can airdash up and stay in the air longer) in all directions.

5. this air dashing is also a feature of the combo implement that i will now describe (directly after you smash an opponent back you have to press a button with great precision like with the street fighter 3rd strike parry in order to pull off a special air dash chase that only attracts you to the opponent, as well as having your opponent attract to you (only the combo meter can give you this special attraction, *OOPS FORGOT TO ADD THIS IN...YOU HAVE TO PRESS A BUTTON IN ORDER TO DRAIN YOUR COMBO METER AND PULL OFF THIS ATTRACTION...whether or not you want to press a button is up to the developers they do as they see fit maybe they just want to keep it simple and freeflow it [so it's hard for fox to down air hurricane kick you then give chase and do it again with this system] normally you wouldn't be able to attract to your opponent nor would the opponent attract to you) but slower than a teleport (your attract speed has to be slightly faster in the air because in the air it is harder to catch up, so it will sort of attract you to the opponent by an incredibly tiny amount and the opponent to you (this latter part would only be even more so ever so slightly, ***NOW HERE COMES THE SPECIAL PART- for the combo attraction meter where you press a button to attract to opponents in the air in order to pull off tremendous aerial lift and unleash epic aerial battles--whichever direction you move the joystick in is the direction you will "attract to", so this adds alot of difficulty to the game because the opponent may fly far and fast erraticly in one direction but you have to have a quick and fast enough reaction time in order to attract to the right direction before he flys out of reach...and it is a hit or miss scenario*** the primary function is for you to attract to your opponent not for the opponent to attract to you (for this you have the force meter which i will describe later which can pull your opponent into you and also repel him away from you ever so slightly) and since he attracts to you when he gets knockbacked it's for a tiny shorter distance and at a tiny bit slower speed as well), sort of like ever-so-mild sticky glue, also your speed also slightly increases so you can catch up easier ) (also you automatically can't do this after it passes a short distance so eventually it'll stop no matter how many combos u pull off cause they will fly too far too fast too erratically for you to catch up, and yes yes i realized the following also which is why it doesn't work after a short distance because you don't want fox chaining multiple up-airs on you and ko'ing you at 0%, well of course all moves can be balanced both knockback and damage-wise [for example additional combo attacks have much less knockback and do less damage, so if you want to opt for "regular combos without using the combo/attraction meter to give you this added attraction/dashing ability, then you can do so and it will be much more damaging"] to have compability with my feature while still retaining their innate characteristics), and anyhow combos will be extremely difficult to pull off and also it will have a limits when it reaches certain points so it maintains this stance reserved for elite players... ***END OF AERIAL SECTION***

6. this can be used on the ground as well and is much easier to pull off possibly but there is much less attraction to the point where it is almost useless to try to use the attraction ability or maybe on the ground you can't even do it at all (in the air and on the ground you can probably only do at most an extra hit or so due to you being unable to hit them into and bounce them off the ground to position a combo easier since they basically just fly everywhere) (because you can catch up faster, and you don't have to position and place moves such that you [clinch-which is already a mechanic slightly incorporated into the game explained further below] and attract the opponent closer to you, either with the combo meter giving you the ability to attract people to you with hits as well as you attracting to other people) but for both air and ground there's a combo meter which starts off at line 0 doing absolutely nothing...when you build it up with the press of a button you can attract to people extremely indiscernibly, although the air combos are supposed to be much more difficult to pull off even for just that xtra one hit, and also to make it less likely that they can chain combos on you all the way to your death at the far reaches of the stage you can pull off a combo cancel etc. so perhaps there is also a "regular air dash" (a regular move)...this way if you're off the ledge and someone tries to give chase off-stage say a fox already shined u and you are basically dead already but they want to humiliate you further so they give chase and attack you but instead you cancel out there combo attack with the push of the "A" button (to make it easier for families there will be a nice pop-up graphic displaying that you should press the "A" button and at the exact moment when the combo links that graphic turns highlighted to show that that is the exact brief flash of a precise moment you have to press in order to cancel it) at the exact instant after they try to link up a combo after they shine you and instead you pull off a multiple hit combo yourself having charged up your combo meter earlier and you make it all the way back to the stage!


7. the third final thing they forgot was to extend the smash concept and to create a miini-game where a giant red dragon boss on the side of the screen spits soccer balls (which turn into a fireball after u hit it in brawl) at u and you smash the balls back at it to kill it that's basic concept they forgot smashing concept directional influence, etc., this concept can be expanded in alot of directions, of course before you reach this boss level you have to killl off hordes of enemy minions flying around the screen or something and smash stuff back at them as well, (or just a simple extension of multi-man melee turning it into flying enemies instead of grounded enemies, where you have enemies flying around the screen instead shooting stuff at you and you have to kill them all, etc.) such as a billion samuses on the sides fire straight missles and homing missles at you that constantly chase you and you either have to smash the missles back at the samuses or it's just survival mode and you can smash missles back towards other missles or just hit them to get rid of them, also a protect peach or zelda mode perhaps where enemies fire missles at peach and you have to get rid of them and occassionally soccer balls drop down which u can use to kill the enemies on the sides or top of the screen, or they simply shoot soccer balls at peach and you have to shield her and hit them back at the enemies, also this protect peach or protect zelda (peach or zelda can or cannot also attack and protect themselves) can evolve into a stand-alone scenario (this is a good idea in events mode that they can consider evolving into a stand alone thing), also i mean they really should make the adventure mode plausible to be played competitively and also you have to survive in the end and defeat a boss with a points system just like traditional platform games like in megaman 9, also you can have a survival mode where the screen just scrolls sideways or where the screen is still and you just move sideways and see how many baddies and/or bosses you can kill before you die.



8. now here comes the *optional* part (THIS SECTION ALLOWS YOU TO INTEGRATE IT WITH ALL THE OTHER MECHANICS DESCRIBED ABOVE IN ORDER TO CREATE GREAT EPIC AERIAL LIFT AND AERIAL BATTLES AND COMBOS ALONG WITH COMBINING IT WITH THE SPEED BOOSTS, ETC.) (this can be a gameplay option under special modes where if people like it they can turn it on in tourneys, etc.) about the force meter (may i note that the use of these forces can be made *extremely* indiscernible and just make it so that the game flows a little tad bit smoother so it isn't always the same immovable mass possibly the reason being because this game is meant to flow a little and isn't entirely like traditional fighters especially at melee/close ranges where the fight essentially becomes locked and is just a stupid i dare you you dare me to attack and if you miss and i'm able to throw up my shield and block then i throw you type-of-game; and this is also still totally optional as some people may prefer to play oldschool style without the use of this force), THE FORCE CAN BE USED IN THE AIR AS WELL you can use the force to attract (perhaps you only want the repel feature which i will describe later) him to you ever so slightly from a melee/close distance if you don't have the meter charged up (with little japanese line graphics radiating outwards (a non-comic book non-cheesy version) pulling him in or use the force to repel him (hey you can figure out a way to incorporate this into the game's theme can't u? lol) (this allows for more varied melee tactics when you are playing up-close with the opponent, when you pull him in it starts out slower then he will be dragged into you a bit quicker ever so slightly up to a certain point, perhaps you can also drag him behind you...this allows for new melee tactics...you can use the control pad for this...if you have the force meter charged up you can use it farther away but to a lesser extent and also when they're closer it becomes more powerful if you have your force meter charged up-you can charge up your force meter based on a net total of how much activity you do-the more and faster you run and move and jump around you gain a minimal amount, when you pull off blank attacks in the air (just attacking thin air without actually touching your opponent in order to build up your meter) you gain a slightly increased amount, when you hit your opponent and do an increasing amount of damage you gain more, and the more combos you pull off successfully you gain the most, etc., also the heavier, stronger and slower the character the more powerful their use of force...so they can use it to repel you and keep you away in order to pick away at, damage, and break your shield, it also gives them a better chance of hitting you if they can use it properly because the force will only attract strongest if you can place it properly and there are certain areas where the force has a very weak attraction and repel when you are grounded it is harder to pull you in, when you are in the air it is easier, so if a fox decides to run at you blindly jump in the air and kick you and you are Ganandorf you just say: COME HERE! pull him in and do your justice. it takes into account the momentum at which the opponent is running towards you as well as many other factors (when they are directly above you it should be harder to drag them in otherwise it would be dumb, and you can only use the force when you are facing the opponent so if you're facing right you press right (forward) in order to repel him or pull him directly in front of you and backwards (left) in order to attract him to you or attract him to directly behind where you're standing (if he's directly behind you on the right and you are facing the other way facing left then you can press left and *repel* or in other words pull him in front of you [NOTE: Since you have your back turned to him normally you wouldn't be able to use the force but if he's directly behind you you can pull him in front of you although it will be much harder and the force will be weaker than if when you are facing him and you try to pull him in back of you, and vice versa when he's on the right and you are facing him directly you can *attract* or pull him behind you), note: perhaps only heavier, slower, and bigger characters should have this ability as a B-Special move and perhaps only the "repel" ability and not the attract ability because having repel enables them to keep a distance between themselves and their enemies since they are slower so they can more easily dish out punishment. ALSO, this force possibly can be a knockback effect or have added knockback effects...

9. you should be able to control directional influence a little bit this can be an option because it sort of ruins the game and makes placement hits impossible as well as ruining the flow of the game, but if you are able to somehow incorporate the "force" concept of repelling and attraction when your opponent is linking combos into you then you might be able to avoid the combos more easier and it gives you a way to avoid combos...(all in all it might just be a good idea to ditch the whole combo meter idea it's up to you guys, and just have combos pulled off normally with the normal way of doing it and reverting back to normal gameplay)

10. they knew about the final smash concept, (or adding supers to smash), but they refused to add supers, why (the supers don't necessarily have to be damaging or have knockback they can be used for utility purposes (cause you already have your charge-up smash attack?)


11. also give Ganon some shield-breaking or undodgable moves (well you do'nt necessarily need this as it is difficult to pull off the neutral standing dodge anyway as it takes too long to press those buttons which is a perfect setup that sakurai invented) that do extra shield damage or break the shield entirely he really needs it he sux (much less giving him a heck of alot more damage to begin with make him sort of like a Hugo character in Street fighter 3rd strike), the shield relaly regenerates way too fast, plus when you dizzy it shouldn't be for that long i really don't know why street fighter makes them dizzy so long, it should be only for a short time, and also projectiles need to do alot more damage honestly projectiles are quite weak, and throwing needs to be nerfed a bit imo so that you have to be closer in order to throw...

12. all cheesiness aside, this is where the real elite gameplay is...obviously smash gameplay (technical aspects and variety), moves and controls and fighting system, are not that tight and great and numerous yet, they really need to add in a ton more moves, making use of the diagonals especially to add more B-Special moves in (this game was meant to be played with alot of special moves but they opted for only 4 different B-Special ones with some characters only having three)...(it seems it isn't family accessible but in reality you can tune the diagonals to make them less sensitive), extra buttons, button combos and controls, directional pad etc.), (the current system is far too bad, cancels don't count as parries we need alot of extra stuff to add depth and difficulty as they do with serious fighting games like what they have with street fighter, etc. whatever else they have i do not know as i am not a game designer, i know this game is meant to be played flat but when it's too flat it becomes stupid, all these new concepts that i've suggested probably won't work well anyway with the current messy Smash fighting system and moves...

13. even though things aren't family accessible doesn't mean it can't still be a family game (other than adding diagonals which probably wouldn't work for families), because as smash is now, when played at a low level it can be for families for fun but it doesn't mean that you can't become very good at it and indulge in its complexities as well...hmm...if only there were a professional version of smash with a mature theme that would be cool, the characters would be much better too..."strider-type characters with a giant mechanical saber-tooth pet and also a flying mechnical gundam fighter that spreads lasers down at its victims in true japanese style, the possibilities for the Smash concept are endless (just look at the game Collosseum made by Shortfuse Games whose teammate Erik Svedang won 1st place at the Independent Games Festival it is a circular 3rd person fantasy gladiator arena where besides fighting 3 other players you also fight hordes of enemies and bosses a low budget game for Xbox Community Game download, this sort of builds off the concept of Defence of the Ancients [DOTA] or League of Legends which is the title for the commercial version in making, also there was an old game called Powerstone which featured slanted top-down square 3d arena fighting for 4 players, this is the evolvement of the fighting game genre, when linked to true 3d-fighting games (Final Fantasy Dissidia is progressing in this direction), smash is by far not dead yet: multiplayer fighting games are a genre of its own still in its infancy! (i wish blizzard would've not canceled their plans to join the console market they might've contributed to this category...) Smash has many secrets to discover!


i don't have that much time to think and i'm also tired so i'll leave it at this, otherwise i would think of new techs/fighting system ideas that i would add

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Something that doesn't seem to have been discussed very much on this thread is Fire Emblem characters. I'm sure we'll see a new one in the future, but who do you think it will be?

I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem, never played any of the games. But from some research I've done, I've been able to come up with two characters that seem very possible for SSB4. Lyn and Micaiah.

Lyn is from a Gameboy Advance game, the first Fire Emblem game released in America. The game is somewhat related to the game Roy was in, which is somewhat related to the game Marh was in. So Lyn is from a different generation than Marth, but she is still related through game history in a way, but very distantly. She is very popular and Sakurai seems to be paying more attention to her than any other FE character, she is even an Assist Trophy.

Micaiah however, is from the newer generation and uses Magic which would make her a unique Fire Emblem character. She is newest in th series which is a good boost for her. She is related to Ike through games, she was featured as the other main character of Radiant Dawn. Neither Ike nor Micaiah are related to Marth or Lyn in any way.

What would be cool is if both got in, then there would be two from the older generations (the ones relating to Marth) and two from the newer generations (the ones relating to Ike). But what do you think?

 

[SuSa]

In response to Kencan:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7799227&postcount=21

 

[Pieman0920]

Kencan, perhaps you shouldn't post all that at one, or try to think of a way to condence your ideas, because that's just....way too much to read at once. Still from skmming it, it does seem like trying to push Smash in the direction of traditional fighters, which it really shouldn't be pushed towards. Still, I'm not sure exactly, since I just can't read that all.

Also for FE, I think Micaiah is the best choice if there is no new FE game, due to the whole magic user's being underused in comparison to sword users. (Plus she technically had a larger role in her game than Lyn did)

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Also for FE, I think Micaiah is the best choice if there is no new FE game, due to the whole magic user's being underused in comparison to sword users. (Plus she technically had a larger role in her game than Lyn did)

Okay, I guess I would have to agree with that. But if there happens to be a new generation of Fire Emblem appearing sometime soon (or sometime around the development of SSB4), then we can probably expect a main character from that game. I wish that were the case, it'd be neat to get a brand new Fire Emblem rep.

 

[sundayseclipse]

we have i dunno 5 sword users 6 including meta outve 35. maby 5 magic users rest hand to hand....blah

moral is if their good put them in, **** the bias opinions of others

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ Kencan:

Jesus tap dancing Christ... Well, despite now having a head ache, I read all of it.

1. This idea is... strange if anything and is a little too complicated simply to be a mini-game.

2. This would make edgeguarding even harder and thus actually make the game even more unbalanced.

3. No combos? Even less than Brawl? Why?

4. I can't even tell what you're trying to say in this section. The lack of punctuation and proper paragraph form is making this a complete pain to read...

5. Again, I can't make heads or tails about what you're trying to say. This "attraction" and "repel" system you've set up also confuses the crap out of me.

6. You can already control directional influence so, again, what are you trying to say?

7. Sounds like you want Smash to be more like a traditional fighter. Why take out some of the elements that seperate it from other fighters?

8. Again, sounds too much like a traditional fighter and takes away what makes Smash unique.

9. You're making Smash way more complicated than it needs to be. I don't think anyone except for the most serious Smash players would legimately care abou the "bar system" if they were added to the game. It's almost as if you're goal is to make the most complex fighting game out there.

10. This is Smash... not Marvel vs Capcom... why does there need to be "supers"?

11. I have ADHD and even I think you're all over the place here. First you want Ganondorf buffed, then you want broken shields "stun" period to be shorter and then you want EVERY projectile to be stronger? I can understand why you'd want the first thing but what is your reasoning for the other two?

12. Diagonals? How complicated do you want to make this game? Do you have any idea how frustrating it would be to do things like B up right for entirely different moves? Basically, that would give every character 16 more moves ontop of the 21 or so moves that everyone has already... Honestly, I have my face pull back into a death mask just thinking about it...

13. The Smash you've dreamed up would be too complicated for a vast majority of people. I don't even know what to make of all the analogies you use in this point.

 

[Big-Cat]

I did not bother reading the vast majority of Kencan's post, but I must say that I would not mind that Smash takes a couple of pages from traditional fighters. While Smash is not like other fighting games, I don't think it needs to be completely different from other fighters from the sake of it.

Here are some things I would not mind:

1. Lag reducing techniques.
Obviously, this would be like L-Canceling. Instead of the shield button, the canceling is initiated by pressing down on the controller as you land from either an attack, jump, or being attacked. However, this will not apply to throws.

2. Super meter.
I noticed that there is some objection on this, partly because it distracts the player, but I find this a faulty argument. It's not like you have to gaze at it. Anyway, using a quarter of the meter allows you to perform a super version of any of the special moves by holding the A and B buttons and putting the control stick in the proper direction. A full meter will allow the player to use a much more balanced final smash by holding the B button.

3. Canceling
Aside from adding in more hitstun into the game, canceling normal attacks into specials could help add in more combos.

I'd also to like to add this, Smash needs to be easy to learn, hard to master, and the time you put into mastering it pays off in the competitive scene.

Also, where can I geta Wii USB Gecko? I want to try Brawl+.

 

[SmashChu]

I did not bother reading the vast majority of Kencan's post, but I must say that I would not mind that Smash takes a couple of pages from traditional fighters. While Smash is not like other fighting games, I don't think it needs to be completely different from other fighters from the sake of it.

No. It needs to be different. What other fighting games emphasizes where elements that made them less accessible and less interesting to most people. Street Fighter killed the 2d fighting games by being harder and harder for the top tier users. Turbo and Tournament addition would separate the lower tier users and the higher tier ones. Eventually, most would leave. Street Fighter 2 was a must have game on the NES. Street Fighter 4 is defiantly not a must have game.

Smash Brothers was successful by eliminating and shrinking certain aspects and raising and creating new ones. It allowed for four player and became more accessible. Smash is successful because it differentiated itself from other fighting games of the time. If it is to take pages from other games, it will simply fall into that same trap. It's good that the fans and game creates ignore tournament Smash. Were it ever a focus, the franchise will decline.

 

[Big-Cat]

No. It needs to be different.

I understand that it needs to be different, but it doesn't need to be radically different from other fighters. It's already different because of the damage system, the knockout method, and a large emphasis on aerial gameplay. What else are you proposing to make it completely different?

What other fighting games emphasizes where elements that made them less accessible and less interesting to most people.

I'm sorry, but what are you saying here?

Street Fighter killed the 2d fighting games by being harder and harder for the top tier users. Turbo and Tournament addition would separate the lower tier users and the higher tier ones. Eventually, most would leave. Street Fighter 2 was a must have game on the NES. Street Fighter 4 is defiantly not a must have game.

First off, Street Fighter II was released on the SNES, Genesis, and Arcade, not the NES. What started the decline in fighting games was the saturation of them along with some games being overly complex. There was also the whole button smashing thing and that a number of games involved memorizing specific button sequences that were long. You could not win unless you had precise timing and exploited any techs in the game. Therefore, it shuts out the casual people.

Street Fighter IV, I believe, was partially made in mind of this. From what I've heard, there is less technical stuff in the game, but it's still competitive and there's definitely a casual crowd. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a competitive gap. Like anything in life, if you want to be the best in something, you have to work at it, but the distance between the top and the bottom does not need to be so large.

Smash Brothers was successful by eliminating and shrinking certain aspects and raising and creating new ones. It allowed for four player and became more accessible. Smash is successful because it differentiated itself from other fighting games of the time. If it is to take pages from other games, it will simply fall into that same trap. It's good that the fans and game creates ignore tournament Smash. Were it ever a focus, the franchise will decline.

The pages that Smash should consider taking should also include what went wrong to start the decline. By learning from the mistakes of others, they have the potential to fix it in the future.

I find it strange that the game designers would ignore tournament Smash considering that there has been a Tournament mode in Smash for the two past games.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Kencan: You need to sum that up before I start reading it. No way am I going to strain my eyes over that mountain.

1. Lag reducing techniques.
Obviously, this would be like L-Canceling. Instead of the shield button, the canceling is initiated by pressing down on the controller as you land from either an attack, jump, or being attacked. However, this will not apply to throws.

Eh, L-Canceling should suffice.

2. Super meter.
I noticed that there is some objection on this, partly because it distracts the player, but I find this a faulty argument. It's not like you have to gaze at it. Anyway, using a quarter of the meter allows you to perform a super version of any of the special moves by holding the A and B buttons and putting the control stick in the proper direction. A full meter will allow the player to use a much more balanced final smash by holding the B button.

For those who look at this idea conservatively, let me just state again that the "Super Meter" doesn't necessarily have to be a bar which fills up with energy during the course of a match. Look at the health meter in Smash Bros. à la percentage. It's unorthodox and deviates from convention. The meter can take a similar route. Being "unorthodox" is what makes Smash Bros... Smash Bros.

Also, do you think there should be character specific meters? The idea is kinda in Smash already (PKMN invisible stamina meter, R.O.B robo beam to a degree, Peach's float to a degree, etc). I say this because I think it could potentially add to making characters more unique. Lil Mac can have a fatigue meter, Toon Link a wind meter, Geno a star meter (calm down, haters), etc.

3. Canceling
Aside from adding in more hitstun into the game, canceling normal attacks into specials could help add in more combos.

Agreeing with this. Dashing out of a smash attack followed up by whatever would be so, so good. It could be a great spacing tool and the mindgame potential is just . Love the idea.

I'd also to like to add this, Smash needs to be easy to learn, hard to master, and the time you put into mastering it pays off in the competitive scene.

Easy to pick up and play, yet has enough depth to keep the competitive interested. Both camps are happy. Totally agreed.

Also, where can I geta Wii USB Gecko? I want to try Brawl+.

Ebay.

 

[Big-Cat]

Eh, L-Canceling should suffice.

I'm not sure. I think doing on the control stick may be better. With L-Canceling, you may have a bunch of people accidentally air dodging.

For those who look at this idea conservatively, let me just state again that the "Super Meter" doesn't necessarily have to be a bar which fills up with energy during the course of a match. Look at the health meter in Smash Bros. à la percentage. It's unorthodox and deviates from convention. The meter can take a similar route. Being "unorthodox" is what makes Smash Bros... Smash Bros.

This is probably the best example of how Smash can be different without being radically so.

Also, do you think there should be character specific meters? The idea is kinda in Smash already (PKMN invisible stamina meter, R.O.B robo beam to a degree, Peach's float to a degree, etc). I say this because I think it could potentially add to making characters more unique. Lil Mac can have a fatigue meter, Toon Link a wind meter, Geno a star meter (calm down, haters), etc.

I don't think every character needs some exclusive meter. The Pokemon stamina thing didn't work really well so I think exclusive meters should have some benefit to the character, not a detractor.

 

[n88]

@ Kencan

Uh.... I don't get it.

I think you mentioned making the game more complex to prevent button mashing. (I may have misunderstood) In my experience, button mashers in Smash get their ***es handed to them by Lvl 1 CPUs regularly, whereas button mashers in some traditional fighters find unblockable attacks and strange combos as a reward.

Really, though I can't make heads nor tails of your post.

@Spydr Enzo

Never played FE, so I can't comment. Between the two, though, I would put my money on Miciah.

 

[Pieman0920]

The idea that everyone gets a specific meter seems a good deal like Blazblue and its drive system no? While I'd have no problem if Smash attempted to use a system sort of like that (a third type of attack?) it would seem like stealing to a degree, plus I think there are a bit too many characters at this time for it to work. Then again, I could be misinterpreting.

 

[SmashChu]

I understand that it needs to be different, but it doesn't need to be radically different from other fighters. It's already different because of the damage system, the knockout method, and a large emphasis on aerial gameplay. What else are you proposing to make it completely different?

It's not necessarily more different. It's keeping it from "taking a page" from other fighting games which is what you've suggested. I'm proposing keping it different from those games.

I'm sorry, but what are you saying here?

I wrote this when it was late. Not everything will be written correctly.

What other fighting games emphasizes were elements that made them less accessible and less interesting to most people.

Basically, Street Fighter has, for a long time, emphasized the competitive qualities of the franchise, ignoring what made it popular. Street Fighter 2 wasn't hard to learn and had very few techniques. As the franchise has gone on and on, they have added more and more techniques and have made the game harder to play. I think taking away some of the simple nature has hurt the franchise.

First off, Street Fighter II was released on the SNES, Genesis, and Arcade, not the NES. What started the decline in fighting games was the saturation of them along with some games being overly complex. There was also the whole button smashing thing and that a number of games involved memorizing specific button sequences that were long. You could not win unless you had precise timing and exploited any techs in the game. Therefore, it shuts out the casual people.

During Mario Madness, there were plenty of clones, and Mario did fine. Halo was never hurt despite all the Halo clones. The same is true of GTA. Over saturation probably isn't it.

Street Fighter IV, I believe, was partially made in mind of this. From what I've heard, there is less technical stuff in the game, but it's still competitive and there's definitely a casual crowd. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a competitive gap. Like anything in life, if you want to be the best in something, you have to work at it, but the distance between the top and the bottom does not need to be so large.

It wasn't. Street Fighter 4 still holds a lot of the illnesses that made the franchise declined. Look at the sales. It sold less then 2 million between two consoles. It is still hurting. The problem has not been solved. It sold because it was like Street Fighter 2, but it didn't take off because it only Street Fighter 2-esqu. The developers still look to the competitive community for development.

The pages that Smash should consider taking should also include what went wrong to start the decline. By learning from the mistakes of others, they have the potential to fix it in the future.

But your suggestion wasn't that. It was to just copy those games, not try to identify the problem. Sakurai should not care. He left the Red Ocean by making Smash very different. He continues to do that with Brawl.

I find it strange that the game designers would ignore tournament Smash considering that there has been a Tournament mode in Smash for the two past games.

Were Sakurai to ever listen to the wants of competitive Smash, the franchise will decline. Smash has a tournament mode for tournaments, but it never focuses on the competitive community. Notice how Smash Boards was angry at Brawl. That is good. It means that it is not focusing on the top tier users and focusing to getting more bottom tier or non-users. This is how franchises stay healthy.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not necessarily more different. It's keeping it from "taking a page" from other fighting games which is what you've suggested. I'm proposing keping it different from those games.

After some thought, I still think that Smash should consider using ideas in other fighting games, but in it's own fashion.

I wrote this when it was late. Not everything will be written correctly.

What other fighting games emphasizes were elements that made them less accessible and less interesting to most people.

Basically, Street Fighter has, for a long time, emphasized the competitive qualities of the franchise, ignoring what made it popular. Street Fighter 2 wasn't hard to learn and had very few techniques. As the franchise has gone on and on, they have added more and more techniques and have made the game harder to play. I think taking away some of the simple nature has hurt the franchise.

Street Fighter IV, like Street Fighter II, doesn't have that many unique attacks and specials for each character (save for Akuma, Gouken, and Gen), and the use and execution for most attacks are very easy to learn. The only really hard thing is stringing combos. I think the thing that had hurt the franchise was going too far into the competitive side of the spectrum. In other words, the gap between the newbies and the masters was just too wide for any newbie to challenge.

During Mario Madness, there were plenty of clones, and Mario did fine. Halo was never hurt despite all the Halo clones. The same is true of GTA. Over saturation probably isn't it.

I also mentioned the overly technical emphasis on gameplay which I think did more damage.

It wasn't. Street Fighter 4 still holds a lot of the illnesses that made the franchise declined. Look at the sales. It sold less then 2 million between two consoles. It is still hurting. The problem has not been solved. It sold because it was like Street Fighter 2, but it didn't take off because it only Street Fighter 2-esqu. The developers still look to the competitive community for development.

Sales don't mean anything, even for who gets in Smash which I have noticed that you mention a lot when discussing characters. Also, it's more than likely that the game has sold more than two and a half million copies. I just looked up the sales data, and the information you're mentioning is from the end of March, a month and a half after the game was released. Who knows how much it has sold since then.

But your suggestion wasn't that. It was to just copy those games, not try to identify the problem. Sakurai should not care. He left the Red Ocean by making Smash very different. He continues to do that with Brawl.

As I have said before, I want Smash to do its take on established conventions, not be a direct expy of other games. If I wanted to play Smash like Street Fighter, I'd play Mugen.

By the Red Ocean, I assume you mean the hardcore community, and the Blue Ocean is the casual community, right?

Being different doesn't mean you have to leave the Red Ocean. Games like Super Mario 64 have redefined their respective genres. Anyway, who's to say that Sakurai and co. can't simply go into the Purple Ocean? The balance between the two. We don't want a game that's too easy, or a game that's too hard.

Were Sakurai to ever listen to the wants of competitive Smash, the franchise will decline. Smash has a tournament mode for tournaments, but it never focuses on the competitive community. Notice how Smash Boards was angry at Brawl. That is good. It means that it is not focusing on the top tier users and focusing to getting more bottom tier or non-users. This is how franchises stay healthy.

I think I understand what you're saying. You want the fanbase to be large and healthy. However, by keeping it completely casual, you're basically giving the finger to the people who want to play competitively. Also, the size would only be for a little while. This is something I have feared for the Wii. While it's casual friendly, the casual crowd will more than likely move on to non-gaming things because they don't feel challenged. Therefore, Nintendo lacks that supportive base for the next console and future games.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I'm not sure. I think doing on the control stick may be better. With L-Canceling, you may have a bunch of people accidentally air dodging.

That kinda adds to the appeal of L-Canceling.

If you mess up, you get punished for it. You don't want to make something like reducing lag on moves a easy tech or a tech without risk.

I don't think every character needs some exclusive meter. The Pokemon stamina thing didn't work really well so I think exclusive meters should have some benefit to the character, not a detractor.

Not everyone, just a few. Mario wouldn't need something like this.

And the chara-specific meter should have it's advantages and disadvantages. For example: Toon Link is only able to control the wind with some meter. He's able to glide via wind as a recovery tactic (advantageous). He's unable to recover as far without the wind (disadvantageous).

A better example: Lil Mac uses a fatigue meter. Most of Lil Mac's specials are knockback resistant. As long as the meter isn't full, most of Mac's specials are super armor viable (advantageous). The more you use it, the quicker the meter fills, thus no super armor. If full, Mac will be fatigued and won't be able to use specials for a few seconds (disadvantageous).

The idea that everyone gets a specific meter seems a good deal like Blazblue and its drive system no? While I'd have no problem if Smash attempted to use a system sort of like that (a third type of attack?) it would seem like stealing to a degree, plus I think there are a bit too many characters at this time for it to work. Then again, I could be misinterpreting.

Blazblue isn't the first game where I've seen something like using the wind or whatever in a fighting game (First saw it in Touhou: Scarlet Weather Rhapsody). That said, it wouldn't hurt if Smash put it's own spin on this mechanic. It really opens up a lot of options. ^_^

Were Sakurai to ever listen to the wants of competitive Smash, the franchise will decline. Smash has a tournament mode for tournaments, but it never focuses on the competitive community. Notice how Smash Boards was angry at Brawl. That is good. It means that it is not focusing on the top tier users and focusing to getting more bottom tier or non-users. This is how franchises stay healthy.

No. The franchise would definitely not decline. It would evolve and prosper. If Sakurai was a good developer, he would listen to the ones buying his product. Listen to what their dislikes and likes are about the game and how the Smash franchise can become better. Being broad-minded helps the franchise. Confining the mind to the things you want to hear will be your downfall.

"Notice how Smash Boards was angry at Brawl. That is good." What are you talking about? That's not a good thing at all. People who are dissatisfied with your product is never really a good thing.

"It means that it is not focusing on the top tier users and focusing to getting more bottom tier or non-users." Focusing on one group at the expense of another is good now? So alienating is good. Okay. Melee nailed what Brawl should have been; a game where anyone can pick up and play, but also offers a great deal of depth for those who want to become better. SFIV took a similar route and satisfied both fronts.

"This is how franchises stay healthy." That can only last for so long. Franchises will die if they don't evolve.

 

[professor mgw]

◇◇◇◇ I guess it would be pretty nice to play with certain bosses. ◇◇◇◇

 

[n88]

@ScoobyCafe

Sakurai does listen to the poeple who buy his product, which would be casual, not competitive players. Brawl is a lot slower than Melee because a lot of casual players thought it was too fast. There are more casual players than competitive, therefore the game is targeted towards them. If the game became more competitive-focused, it would not be as popular.

 

[Big-Cat]

That kinda adds to the appeal of L-Canceling.

If you mess up, you get punished for it. You don't want to make something like reducing lag on moves a easy tech or a tech without risk.

I can see this being applied to using attacks, but not for being attacked.

Not everyone, just a few. Mario wouldn't need something like this.

And the chara-specific meter should have it's advantages and disadvantages. For example: Toon Link is only able to control the wind with some meter. He's able to glide via wind as a recovery tactic (advantageous). He's unable to recover as far without the wind (disadvantageous).

A better example: Lil Mac uses a fatigue meter. Most of Lil Mac's specials are knockback resistant. As long as the meter isn't full, most of Mac's specials are super armor viable (advantageous). The more you use it, the quicker the meter fills, thus no super armor. If full, Mac will be fatigued and won't be able to use specials for a few seconds (disadvantageous).

I think something like you said for Toon Link is fine. I'm not okay with Lil Mac's meter though. It doesn't seem balanced enough since you take away the vital recovery. I think a better idea would be that the specials have a faster stale rate than other characters.

Better yet, Lil mac's specials have limited knockback, but once the meter is filled, he can use any one of his specials with super knockback.

 

[Fuelbi]

i want mega man, shadow, knuckles, silver, tails....pretty much the whole sonic team....pippy the frog, more pokemon (and by that i mean like the legendary dogs or whatever they're called and celebi). wadledee. thats it

 

[rockem7]

No more Sonic characters. Possibly one, but you won't get the whole thing. Silver could possibly be an AT with a psychic ability if Isaac becomes a character, leaving a psychic spot open.

 

[Pieman0920]

Blazblue isn't the first game where I've seen something like using the wind or whatever in a fighting game (First saw it in Touhou: Scarlet Weather Rhapsody). That said, it wouldn't hurt if Smash put it's own spin on this mechanic. It really opens up a lot of options. ^_^

Well it wasn't the wind mechanic I was commenting on, but rather the idea that everyone has their own unique ability set apart form them, such as the wind, or stamina. Of course that could have been done first in some game too, I suppose.

Oh, in regards to Little Mac, I still believe that if he does get some type of special meter or mechanic, it will be the stars from his game, rather than the stamina meter. Make his neutral special a special punch of sorts, which if it hits, will give him one star, with the max being three. His other specials could be powered up through these, like say if his up special is the star uppercut, it will deal more damage/knockback. (I guess his other specials could be Bull charge for side, and Dreamland express for his down special, with that one being a counter attack) If he gets hit, he loses the stars, just like in the game.

Of course his up special's ability to recover wouldn't be impacted though, since that'd be just pointless, unless he only lost one star per hit, instead of all of them.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Sakurai does listen to the poeple who buy his product, which would be casual, not competitive players.

This is okay with you? What if the shoe was on the other foot? How would the casuals react if he listened to competitive players and not them? Would it still be okay?

He needs to listen to the ones (plural) buying his product (casual and competitive players). Turning a deaf ear to one camp just so he can hear what he want to hear is just begging for problems.

Brawl is a lot slower than Melee because a lot of casual players thought it was too fast. There are more casual players than competitive, therefore the game is targeted towards them.

Funny how those same casuals are now saying the game is too slow.

If the game became more competitive-focused, it would not be as popular.

I'm not getting into this. Whether it'd be "less popular" is a debate in it's own right.

I can see this being applied to using attacks, but not for being attacked.

Still, I think simply pushing down on the control stick is a bit too easy. If there's another way to do this, then I'm all for it.

*Lil Mac win mechanics*

*Lil Mac win mechanics*

Okay, these two ideas does sound better than what I was going for. Another thing though, who would get these chara-specific meters? Toon Link and Lil Mac would be great, but who else could benefit from this? Ridley? King K. Rool?

 

[Pieman0920]

I think for most non playable characters (such as Ridley, Ganondorf, and what not) it'd be hard to make anything based around a meter, due to the fact that it would pretty much have to be made up for them right there. Both pottential special mechanics for Toon Link and Little Mac are based around mechanics from their own games. Thus it'd be much more difficult for someone who was simply a boss, because they don't have this type of thing to work with.

In spite of this, and my general dislike of adding in meters, the best thing I can think of for Ridley is something to do with the use of Phazon, since he can be associated with that.

 

[WheelOfFish]

My hope is that SSB4 (if there is one) has a competitive edge.

I hope they don't take the game in a casual direction in terms of the characters. Seriously, if Toad, Daisy, ect., get in, I will cry.

Just kidding maybe.

I think adding meters would detract from SSB if anything. Why change the formula?

 

[n88]

Why change the formula?

Let's take a look at a series that doesn't change the formula. Specifically, Legend of Zelda. I love Zelda games, but I know a lot of people will cry if there isn't something new to change up the next game. The Wolf Link mechanic was a step in the right direction, but the creators need to be fairly innovative when designing the next LoZ for Wii.

I'll admit, Smash isn't at that point yet, but it'd be nice if it never was. A new game should introduce new mechanics while still feeling like a part of the series. Basically there should be something postive to differentiate it from its predecessor. I think Sakurai has done a good job with this so far, but a little bit more innovation would be nice.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Let's take a look at a series that doesn't change the formula. Specifically, Legend of Zelda. I love Zelda games, but I know a lot of people will cry if there isn't something new to change up the next game. The Wolf Link mechanic was a step in the right direction, but the creators need to be fairly innovative when designing the next LoZ for Wii.

I'll admit, Smash isn't at that point yet, but it'd be nice if it never was. A new game should introduce new mechanics while still feeling like a part of the series. Basically there should be something postive to differentiate it from its predecessor. I think Sakurai has done a good job with this so far, but a little bit more innovation would be nice.

I really don't think the basic gameplay needs any new mechanics like meters and stuff like that. It would be difficult to come up with a different meter for every character and thats just something else that would have to be balanced and stuff like that.

Basically, to differentiate it from its predecessor, all we would need are new characters, stages, trophies, etc., and then a lot of new game modes. Sakurai said he had a lot of ideas, so we don't have to worry about SSB4 being almost the same thing as Brawl.

But, what would be cool is if Advanced Techniques were put in the game on purpose so competitive players have something more to master, while casual players can still have fun with the game. But I know this probably won't happen...

 

[Big-Cat]

I think adding meters would detract from SSB if anything. Why change the formula?

Think of it as evolution. The series needs to evolve in order to survive. The series adapts by listening to thee consumers about what they like and don't like. If the series ignores the remarks, it'll die because it's not adjusting to the demands of the consumers.

 

[DekuBoy]

Survival of the fittest mai boi. Sakurai has said he wants to change the direction of the series slightly.

 

[sundayseclipse]

My hope is that SSB4 (if there is one) has a competitive edge.

I hope they don't take the game in a casual direction in terms of the characters. Seriously, if Toad, Daisy, ect., get in, I will cry.

Just kidding maybe.

I think adding meters would detract from SSB if anything. Why change the formula?

there is gonna be one, what makes you think there isnt

toad from mario bros not the ****** spaz
on the evolution....bit by bit not to much and stays with its roots
no meters, changes gameplay to much.
meter like a secondry smash meter eh....no no meters

smash can change bit by bit but only if it stays twords its roots

 

[WheelOfFish]

Brawl lacked a competitive edge. I'm worried that SB64 will, like Brawl, be an attempt to appeal to more casual gamers. Making the game slower doesn't seem like evolution to me, especially when you take out L-cancelling (taking out wavedashing was expected and fine with me- it was a glitch... but why L-cancelling? It was present in both SB64 and Melee) and add in tripping (adds chance to the game)... not to mention a lack of hit-stun. Less combos, more camping, less of a competitional game. This is also a problem because, since the game was not as technical, less characters are viable in Brawl. Sure, Pichu was hard to use, but Chudat and others won tournaments with him. In Brawl, Ganondorf and others are in no way tournament viable, and they never will be. Why? No tech. Sure, people can go on youtube and shout 'TIERZ ARE 4 QUEERZ', but it means nothing in Brawl. Low tier characters stand no chance against top tiers. In melee, many people proved that with practice, they could use any character effectively.

Aaaaaaand that was my rant on why Brawl needs to be technical for it to be competitive.

I like Toad right where he is, as a punching bag of a counter for Peach

Meters would completely change gameplay was my point. The changes from N64 to Melee or Melee to Brawl were improving what was already there. Not adding a gimmick... ala tripping or meters.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I think for most non playable characters (such as Ridley, Ganondorf, and what not) it'd be hard to make anything based around a meter, due to the fact that it would pretty much have to be made up for them right there. Both pottential special mechanics for Toon Link and Little Mac are based around mechanics from their own games. Thus it'd be much more difficult for someone who was simply a boss, because they don't have this type of thing to work with.

In spite of this, and my general dislike of adding in meters, the best thing I can think of for Ridley is something to do with the use of Phazon, since he can be associated with that.

This is all fairly true. I'm watching a few vids of Ridley in Metroid, and it's pretty hard seeing him with a chara-specific meter. Maybe he's viable, but I'm not seeing it at the moment.

And to be honest, not to down on the idea, but I'm not sure about the Phazon. It's not like I don't want to give any nods to Prime 3, but eh, I was never really into the Phazon stuff. lol

smash can change bit by bit but only if it stays twords its roots

Not quite sure what you're trying to imply with the "bit by bit" part of your statement.

And "staying towards it's roots" is to stay unorthodox or nontraditional as far as Smash Bros. is concerned. Some people here are making it seem as if the meter is binded by convention. It's not. The presence of one or something similar to one doesn't automatically make Smash Bros. more traditional or conventional.

Meters would completely change gameplay was my point. The changes from N64 to Melee or Melee to Brawl were improving what was already there. Not adding a gimmick... ala tripping or meters.

Okay. Let's stop the "changing gameplay" foolery. Of course the gameplay is going to change. Final Smashes changed the gameplay in Brawl, yet no one complained nearly as much about it as I'm seeing with the meter. It's all conservative nonsense. Think of the meter as a more development smash ball.



Anyway, onto something else please. I want to know what you guys think about Sukapon. I've been watching a few vids and scouting out for a possible moveset as well as find out more about Joy Mech Fight's history. Vids like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mful0ETWuw

I like him and can see how unique a character he could be. What do you guys think about him?

 

[WheelOfFish]

I think the reason that more people would be against meters as opposed to smash balls is that you can turn smash balls off, whereas meters would have to be an integral part of the game... unless I've misunderstood and meters would be an item or something you can turn off? Otherwise, meters would definitely change gameplay much more significantly than any other change made in the series and as far as I'm concerned, an unnecessary addition.

But honestly, I highly doubt meters are going in the next SSB if there is one.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I think the reason that more people would be against meters as opposed to smash balls is that you can turn smash balls off, whereas meters would have to be an integral part of the game.

I mentioned way back that you'd be able to enable of disable the meter through the rules before a match starts.

But honestly, I highly doubt meters are going in the next SSB if there is one.

That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion so I won't go any further with this. =P

But anyway, if you're familiar with him, what are your thoughts on Sukapon? You think he'd be a cool addition to Smash Bros.?