[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ScoobyCafe]

Forgot what sparked the quarrel I'm seeing above and back, kinda don't want to know, but I'm hoping I don't have to see anymore of it.

Yeah. Good games tend to be those which a new player can easily understand the basic principles and mechanics but which there is sufficient depth in which to progress as a player. The game should be accessible to new players, but at the same time, have the necessary depth to allow the skilled of the gaming world to be capable of expressing their abilities. Keep this as a note to self when you guys bring this up again, which you will--and try stay civil and centered. It's like watching leftist vs. right-wingers whenever I see you guys argue.

@Koops

I'd say I'm the guy with the "Broad POV" in this thread; not just on characters, but many things. I try not to see through small glasses or narrow tunnels like most folks here, too boring for me.

@Kuma

Too easy. I'm hoping see gets something more imaginative for a Final Smash. Really hope Spirit Tracks gives her some goodies, moveset-wise. As for Tetra, exactly what would she do? I'm kinda buzzed right now, so I don't think I could come up with anything wow-some atm. :v

+1 for linking that vid, by the way.

Spoiler

Touhou for SSB4

 

[flyinfilipino]

You can start killing bad guys with a sword in Zelda within your first minute of ever seeing an NES controller. You can play Wii Bowling if you're capable of an underhand throwing motion. You can do special moves in Smash Bros. if you know where the B button is.

Just because the command for an action is easy to do doesn't mean that the game as a whole is easy to play. It still only takes a button to punch in Tekken 6. Pikachu's Quick Attack, though only requiring one B button press, requires some practice to use right.

...I just realized how much of a close group we are after reading this and reminding myself of the "SSB4 Thread Douchebag" Infact, we each even have our stereotypes/personalities:
Pieman: Small "Good Choices" List
ScoobyCafe: Big "Good Choices" List
ToiseOfChoice: SSB4 Thread Douchebag/The One Side of Logic
Arcadenik: Magical Fantasy World. Seriously, what drug?
Fatmanonice: The Other side of Logic
NeverInfiniteX: Random time.
n88_2004: Poll man
Shino: I got lazy with this description.
Hero_Dude: Wait...What happened to him?
SmashChu: Only comes in during Gameplay discussions to make stuff happen.
KumaOso: Gameplay!
*Insert someone I forgot here*: sorry dun maek me feel bad ):
Thirdkoopa (Me): 50/50 Also *Insert song here* And insert *"GET VOCAL"* Here.

Oh, back in the day, it was me and Chief Mendez, and MasterWarlord, and SirKibble...and Kuma and Pieman and SmashChu and Fatman and others. Good times, good times....

MasterWarlord was the thread douchebag

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma

Too easy. I'm hoping see gets something more imaginative for a Final Smash. Really hope Spirit Tracks gives her some goodies, moveset-wise. As for Tetra, exactly what would she do? I'm kinda buzzed right now, so I don't think I could come up with anything wow-some atm. :v

+1 for linking that vid, by the way.

Spoiler

Touhou for SSB4

Meh, it was just on the spot, nothing special. We'll have to wait and see what Toon Zelda could do. Maybe she'll have the Wand of Gamelon.

As for Tetra, I think she would be fairly interesting when it comes for ideas. I'd like to see a few, FEW, moves using that little sword of hers, maybe some bombs, grappling hook (I could see her with one), and something else. Preferably, I'd like to see something not generic at the very least.

Anyway, I won't bother bringing up what started this stupid *** argument since it'll just raise more turmoil with Toise. Disregarding that, what you said in your paragraph sums up what I have in mind. I don't know why I get ignored on this when I have stressed balance of the two several times. The most I go into is when do you make it so accessible that depth is sacrificed and where it's so full of depth that it's inaccessible. Basically, when do you cross the line on the two separate concepts? To be honest, I blame my misinterpretations and word choice, English has always been my weakest subject.

One more thing, someone needs to get together with ZUN to put Touhou on WiiWare. After that, I can only imagine how much the Japan card would be used on Reimu, Marisa, Flandre, and Cirno. Maybe China too, but I think the Western fanbase might still be all over Flandre.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

So how do you guys feel about having Paper Mario as a character in SSB4?

I don't think It'll happen, this is coming from a dude who's obsessed with Mario RPG's. However, a Stage would be nice.

As for how I'd feel? It'd be awesome If the moveset was done right. Personally I was thinking he could have his partners as Lakilester/Spike, Koops, Bow, and Ms.Mowz. Each have there own advantages and disadvantages to recovering and Down B's. However, Side B And B are Mario's own moves. B As his Ground-Pound and B> As his spin Hammer (Which can be charged)

As for his A Moves, would be controlled by his Hammer and stuff as well. When not using/abusing Up/Down B, Mario's Partner will run off and attack or help some in battle. At times, a Partner will die, thus forcing Mario to switch with Down B (Or Down B Can be used at any time)

tl;dr:
Up B - Partner recovery (Depends on Partner)
Side B - Hammer Spin
B - Ground Pound
Down B - Partner...Something, or Switch. Switch may be controlled upon when the partner dies.

But of course, a stage at least and some music would be a godsend. Would however like some critism on the moveset.

...I still need to post the Bowser Jr one.

Chocobo/Slime.

THE POPULARITY IS GOING UP
SLOW BUT IT'S GOING.

Magical Fantasy World? Just because I support Duck Hunt Dog and question Ridley's inclusion?

That still doesn't answer what drug you're on.

And nope, not only for that. Sometimes you make the most out of the blue posts. Example here:
*TK And Pieman argue about Mother/General obscure characters*
*Other people come in*
*You post a gigantic list of why every character in smash bros is in to your opinion on most things we knew*

And you could ask Toise for more requotes If you want. Just saying that the description does work

@Koops

I'd say I'm the guy with the "Broad POV" in this thread; not just on characters, but many things. I try not to see through small glasses or narrow tunnels like most folks here, too boring for me.

That description works to and wa...

See many things? No posts in the stage group? D; But I dunno. I always saw you and Pieman as opposites.

Oh, back in the day, it was me and Chief Mendez, and MasterWarlord, and SirKibble...and Kuma and Pieman and SmashChu and Fatman and others. Good times, good times....

MasterWarlord was the thread douchebag

IT'S NOT TOO LATE YOU ALL CAN STILL JOIN BACK IN THE GROUP DO IT DO IT DO IT.

MasterWarlord was? Oh, I need to go lurk some of the older pages then.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't think It'll happen, this is coming from a dude who's obsessed with Mario RPG's. However, a Stage would be nice.

As for how I'd feel? It'd be awesome If the moveset was done right. Personally I was thinking he could have his partners as Lakilester/Spike, Koops, Bow, and Ms.Mowz. Each have there own advantages and disadvantages to recovering and Down B's. However, Side B And B are Mario's own moves. B As his Ground-Pound and B> As his spin Hammer (Which can be charged)

As for his A Moves, would be controlled by his Hammer and stuff as well. When not using/abusing Up/Down B, Mario's Partner will run off and attack or help some in battle. At times, a Partner will die, thus forcing Mario to switch with Down B (Or Down B Can be used at any time)

tl;dr:
Up B - Partner recovery (Depends on Partner)
Side B - Hammer Spin
B - Ground Pound
Down B - Partner...Something, or Switch. Switch may be controlled upon when the partner dies.

But of course, a stage at least and some music would be a godsend. Would however like some critism on the moveset.

...I still need to post the Bowser Jr one.

It's okay, but the problem here is that they would have to be careful as to what partners are chosen and how many. Naturally, I think Vivian would be the front runner since she seems the most popular.

Also, the whole partner AI thing worries me. I could see some balancing issues here. Nonetheless, it's a great effort.

I want to see your Bowser Jr. one. Did you ever take into thought what I said about making the Koopalings like MvC assists for seven of Bowser Jr.'s moves?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It's okay, but the problem here is that they would have to be careful as to what partners are chosen and how many. Naturally, I think Vivian would be the front runner since she seems the most popular.

Also, the whole partner AI thing worries me. I could see some balancing issues here. Nonetheless, it's a great effort.

I want to see your Bowser Jr. one. Did you ever take into thought what I said about making the Koopalings like MvC assists for seven of Bowser Jr.'s moves?

Yeah, I think It shouldn't be 2 but If you go past 4, you're overdoing it. I kind of worried about a few things:
-What alts could the Character have? You know, having Kooper as a Koops alt makes a "Two for One" Special.
-How Popular/Important are they? Ms.Mowz is the only optional partner, and Lakilester/Bow are one of the few characters in the original with much of a story on them.
-How original the character could be - Yeah, Bobberry could work for Recovery, but meh.

So overall I'm led to:
Vivian (Or maybe Bow)
Koops (Kooper Alt!)
?
No idea on the third slot, but I can say that the first two seem to be good.

As for the Partner AI, Mario would need his partner Meter to fill up before switching by using Down B. The Partner AI Would be pretty dumbwitted on attacking, similar to Ice Climbers. It doesn't worry me in Two on Two or Free for Alls, but in 1v1's especially If hitstun is around, it can be pretty huge. Even without it, I could see the effects not turning out the best. Still thinking, as ideas are open.

As for Bowser Jr, I'm working on it. Don't think all Seven will work and you can't just really pick one and roll with it. Still thinking with that one too. Yay moveset discussion!

 

[SmashChu]

I'm not going to bother with this as this was never what this discussion was about. I've been arguing that ideally you should have a game, at least applying to multiplayer, that is easy to learn but hard to master. In that case, you can apply your question to Smash and a good number of other competitive games, but only at the advanced level.

Really, the problem was that I would mention something, and you would ignore it and do this. I want you to give examples rather then just spout stuff because it sounds good in your head.

Mean as it may be, I'm challenging you to bring in the facts rather then the rhetoric.

I apologize if that has been causing this turmoil between us this entire time. I just want some new mechanics in like Air Grapples (for tethers; you reel the opponent in, not throw them like in other fighters) or a refined, Smashified super meter system in order to add some more depth to the game. I've never been about making the game hard for newbies. I just want people to have work their way to the top if they really want to go competitive like everything else in life and it doesn't involve picking the top tier characters. At the same time, casual players have a good amount, but not too much, of stuff to mess around with and have a blast.

First, it's nice, but you don't have to apologize for what you said. The real problem I think is you don't see anything else besides the competitive level of the game. In fighting games now, that is all there is, but Smash has avoided this. SF2 never had this either. You have to look though the eyes of a low end player.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

@thethirdkoopa

Lakilester: "Dude, the names not Lakilester, it's SPIKE."

Spoiler

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Big-Cat]

I just watched some Youtube videos showing the Koopaling boss battles. If you make them a part of Bowser Jr.'s moveset, you've got yourself a zoning beast. Here's some ideas:

B: Wendy O. Koopa
Wendy fires a circular projectile that moves slowly (compared to other projectiles). It lasts until it either disappears off the stage or inflicts damage. The damage is not very high. About 5% and is not the type for close range combat. If you're going to start off with something, this would be a good choice. This attack also involves Wendy firing the projectile from behind Bowser Jr.

Side B: Iggy Koopa
Dashes by with a with Chain Chomp attached to his chair thing. Great finishing move, but it's also great for starting combos. Like Wendy, he comes behind Bowser Jr. In midair, he is subject to gravity so he won't dash in midair.

Down B: Lemmy Koopa
This move has a lot of startup so it's not safe to use in midair. Larry tosses out a ball that does not inflict damage, but it acts as an edge guard. When it's not hitting someone, it bounces on the ground like a regular ball. Note, you too can be affected by the ball. He appears underneath the stage (bottom of the screen) to throw out the ball.

Up B: Ludwig van Koopa
Grabs Bowser Jr. and does a flutter jump to carry him to safety. Like Lemmy, he comes from the bottom of the screen.

Side Smash: Larry Koopa
Bowser Jr. kicks Larry in his shell like Falco's reflector. This is more for zoning purposes than anything else. Bowser Jr. more or less pulls him out of hammerspace.

Down Smash: Roy Koopa
Roy drops in front of Bowser in a slanted direction from behind Bowser Jr. and does a ground pound.

Up Smash: Morton Koopa Jr.
This move works kinda like Squirtle's Up Smash. Mortan makes a quick ground pound raising the ground (rough description) around Bowser Jr. He comes from above Bowser Jr. fairly quickly.

All in all, Bowser Jr. will have to zone with Wendy and Lemmy. He's about midweight, about Fox weight, but he has speed issues like his father, but he is faster. His non-Koopaling attacks are fairly weak, but they are rather fast so he can combo decently aside from him being an average faller. Bowser Jr. will need his siblings in order to win his battles.

@SmashChu
I'm going to sleep now. I'll get to your post in the morning.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise, couple pages back

If 2D platformers are more popular, I'll retract my analogy and move on, but even if we are talking sports games, outside the two Wii titles, sports are pretty **** deep. Case and point, I play Madden with my friend (same friend who kills me at COD) and he destroys me every time. Now this makes the game less enjoyable in general, but taking out the plays, positions, team stats, etc. the game would lose its charm and Madden would no longer manage to re-sell the game every year to hordes of the masses. Same applies to NBA live, maybe FIFA, NHL, etc. they all follow the same formula and it sells, despite being hard to get into.

Then again, this may just be my localized take on things. Everyone in this town has COD and Madden, but do't know what an RPG is...


@Partner stuff
I kind of like the Bowser Junior Koopalings Team, though I still am unsure of how wieldly the actual implementation would be.

For Paper Mario, No.

@Toon Zelda

I'm one special be Tetra transformation or Knight possession (from spirit racks), one being light arrow, one being possess opponent (with obvious restrictions of KO's), and ghost float for recovery?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Games are capable of depth and accessibility at the same time, the two aren't opposites on the same scale. It just happens that many developers (often unintentionally) focus on one over the other, usually depth over accessibility.

Compare Wii Sports/Resort (very accessible AND deep) to Mario & Sonic (accessible, but not too deep) or Madden/FIFA/etc. (deep, but not too accessible). The first game is something of a cultural phenomenon, the others are "merely" excellent sellers. They're both held back by their inability to either get people into the game or to keep them there.

For the record, the success of the entire genre generally has to do with the fact that sports extend beyond video games. If I care about the Bruins, I'll probably wanna try an NHL game. So... there's that.

To be frank though, the genre itself doesn't really matter too much unless it's a regional thing (like how we love FPS and the Japanese love RPGs). Typically it's the individual games and series that stand out worldwide, the three strongest being Mario, Pokemon, and the Wii ___ games.


Okay, this is all kinda off-topic and I'm definitely rambling, but I guess to sorta stay on topic I'll mention that I generally try to compare Smash's success to Mario Kart. I'll get more into that if you're curious.

 

[Big-Cat]

Really, the problem was that I would mention something, and you would ignore it and do this. I want you to give examples rather then just spout stuff because it sounds good in your head.

Mean as it may be, I'm challenging you to bring in the facts rather then the rhetoric.

Why do I need to bring out some example when that's not what I'm been focusing on this whole time? I'm arguing for depth, not difficulty.

However, if you really want evidence of a difficult game selling, I'd take a look at Shino's post.

@Toise, couple pages back

If 2D platformers are more popular, I'll retract my analogy and move on, but even if we are talking sports games, outside the two Wii titles, sports are pretty **** deep. Case and point, I play Madden with my friend (same friend who kills me at COD) and he destroys me every time. Now this makes the game less enjoyable in general, but taking out the plays, positions, team stats, etc. the game would lose its charm and Madden would no longer manage to re-sell the game every year to hordes of the masses. Same applies to NBA live, maybe FIFA, NHL, etc. they all follow the same formula and it sells, despite being hard to get into.

First, it's nice, but you don't have to apologize for what you said. The real problem I think is you don't see anything else besides the competitive level of the game. In fighting games now, that is all there is, but Smash has avoided this. SF2 never had this either. You have to look though the eyes of a low end player.

I apologized because you misinterpreted one of my earlier posts, and I figured that something like that has been keeping these arguments alive this whole time.

You think I'm looking at just the competitive level? Have you not noticed that just about every post I've made recently mentions that I'm stressing for a balance between accessibility and depth?

Let me end this post with one more thing: Do you think Smash should be further simplified?

@ Shino
I was worried about Bowser Jr. being unwieldy when I made the moveset. Still, if implemented right, he would be a one of a kind character.

Okay, this is all kinda off-topic and I'm definitely rambling, but I guess to sorta stay on topic I'll mention that I generally try to compare Smash's success to Mario Kart. I'll get more into that if you're curious.

Mind you that you are comparing apples to oranges here. There's are other factors as well regarding Mario Kart being more successful. Yes, accessibility is a factor since you just have to know how to accelerate, move, and use items. However, remember that racing games are just more popular than fighting games. It doesn't mean that either is more accessible than the other in this sense; fighting games just don't interest people all that much.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Kuma: Was referring to this:

Super Mario Kart ---- 8.76m
Mario Kart 64 ------- 9.87m
Mario Kart: SC ------ 5.45m
Mario Kart: DD!! ---- 6.96m
Mario Kart DS ------ 16.38m
Mario Kart Wii ----- 18.85m

I'm heading out the door right now, but the short short version is "there's always room for improvement." Also did you not buy NSMBWii yet?

 

[Pieman0920]

A Koopaling moveset wouldn't really work out all too well for Bowser Jr. For one, it disregards...well Bowser Jr. Overall its just a moveset to force all the Koopalings into doing something, and Bowser Jr. doesn't get any attacks or abilities that actually belong to him. In addition, the suggestion is a bit too akward even for Smash. Could Bowser Jr. move around while the Koopalings do their attack? There's a lot of issues that would be raised by the mechanics.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm waiting until after finals to pick it up. I don't want to be overly distracted.

Anyway, I know what you're getting at. I'm just saying that you're comparing games from two different genres. It's like asking which is better: Halo 3 or Final Fantasy XII. You really can't answer this one outside of personal preference since they're two completely different games. It'd be one thing to compare Halo 3 to Bioshock or Final Fantasy XII to Tales of Symphonia.

A Koopaling moveset wouldn't really work out all too well for Bowser Jr. For one, it disregards...well Bowser Jr. Overall its just a moveset to force all the Koopalings into doing something, and Bowser Jr. doesn't get any attacks or abilities that actually belong to him. In addition, the suggestion is a bit too akward even for Smash. Could Bowser Jr. move around while the Koopalings do their attack? There's a lot of issues that would be raised by the mechanics.

Only seven of the attacks involve a Koopaling. Bowser Jr. has the other 19 moves in his moveset to himself. Besides, when you think about it, it's really no different than Olimar and his Pikmin, from a broad perspective of course.

Anyway, Wendy and Iggy are the only moves that let Bowser Jr. move around. Of course, he'll have that starting lag (I just prefer startup instead of this term) like everyone else for those two moves. In my mind, I picture him pointing straight ahead to signal his siblings for all his attacks.

The others do not let Bowser Jr. move around. Remember, what I have in mind is that Bowser Jr. uses zoning, where he "control" where his opponents go, as his main strategy because he's a slow, weak (maybe about Peach level) character.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise
Frankly I'd rather disregard the Wii___ titles because all of them are not sol don thei rown merit. No one buys the Wii so they can get the Wii Sports title with it, but I know you understand this. The Wii sports resort, IIRC comes with the Motion plus, no?, not as huge a bundle as the entire system, but something that could sell on it's own merits.

As for Mario Kart, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark as to why the sales of each Mario Kart gets progressively better, but before I do, I will admit the "accessibility" of the game is definitely a factor.

I noticed the better selling games, except DD, sold better with a well timed release. Mario Kart Wii was one of the only good games on the Wii (though that is debatable >.>) at the time of its release. This time period made selling the game naturally easier, as it had little other competition, while the other games like Mario Kart 64 and Super Mario Kart were released at times when there were other great games ont he market that would limit its sales, reviews, and publicity.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I just watched some Youtube videos showing the Koopaling boss battles. If you make them a part of Bowser Jr.'s moveset, you've got yourself a zoning beast. Here's some ideas:

I love the idea but programming wise, I just don't see it as practical. It's better than merely making Bowser Jr into a clone however...

For Paper Mario, No.

Why?

It's insanely awesome. Just need to pick a partner outside of Koops and Vivian. Opinions are accepted.

Stuff.

More stuff.

And people didn't believe me about the drugs. I still want to know.

Also looking back at really old posts, Toise is the best "SSB4 Thread Douchebag" Ever. Just saying.

@thethirdkoopa

Lakilester: "Dude, the names not Lakilester, it's SPIKE."

LAKILESTER FIRES AN INTENSE BOLT OF LIGHTNING
KOOPS'S FRANKLYN BAD...

WAIT WRONG GAME.


But yeah, that's why I put the "/Spike" On there. I'm still undecided on a 3rd partner.

@Kuma: Was referring to this:

Super Mario Kart ---- 8.76m
Mario Kart 64 ------- 9.87m
Mario Kart: SC ------ 5.45m
Mario Kart: DD!! ---- 6.96m
Mario Kart DS ------ 16.38m
Mario Kart Wii ----- 18.85m

I'm heading out the door right now, but the short short version is "there's always room for improvement." Also did you not buy NSMBWii yet?

I have to admit, Super Circuit had the worst controlls of all of them. However to be fair, Mario Kart DS Was the first one with online.

A Koopaling moveset wouldn't really work out all too well for Bowser Jr. For one, it disregards...well Bowser Jr. Overall its just a moveset to force all the Koopalings into doing something, and Bowser Jr. doesn't get any attacks or abilities that actually belong to him. In addition, the suggestion is a bit too akward even for Smash. Could Bowser Jr. move around while the Koopalings do their attack? There's a lot of issues that would be raised by the mechanics.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I mean, it could work, but it would take too much time. Maybe some of the Koopalings, but shoving them all with Bowser Jr is going to be really hard to Justify.

I'm waiting until after finals to pick it up. I don't want to be overly distracted.

Last week sucked for me. I know how you feel. I tried not to distract myself and I ended up starting on a god run of TTYD. 40 HP, 15 (Or was this 18) Badge Points, and 5 Flower Power...Yet I only just finished Chapter 2. FFFFFFFFF

 

[Pieman0920]

Only seven of the attacks involve a Koopaling. Bowser Jr. has the other 19 moves in his moveset to himself. Besides, when you think about it, it's really no different than Olimar and his Pikmin, from a broad perspective of course.

Anyway, Wendy and Iggy are the only moves that let Bowser Jr. move around. Of course, he'll have that starting lag (I just prefer startup instead of this term) like everyone else for those two moves. In my mind, I picture him pointing straight ahead to signal his siblings for all his attacks.

The others do not let Bowser Jr. move around. Remember, what I have in mind is that Bowser Jr. uses zoning, where he "control" where his opponents go, as his main strategy because he's a slow, weak (maybe about Peach level) character.

It takes up his main 7 attacks though. Everything else is just generic jabs and kicks. This isn't MYM we are talking about where the standard moves can get all crazy either, so really you could just put about anyone in Bowser Jr.'s spot there and you'd have the exact same results. And in regards to Olimar, that's how in game...and the moves are still half dependent on him and not just the Pikmin. Bowser Jr. has teamed up with the Koopalings once out of all his apperances, and even then he never directly works with them for anything combat wise.

And if he can still move around with them doing those attacks, doesn't that mean he can use the other one there? Pottentially you've got like 12 different character models running around at once there, and even more if Bowser Jr. does another move. If you've got four of these guys out on the field at once, you'll have Koopalings constantly popping in and out causing lots of lag and confusion. It really doesn't work out that well.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@TreKoops
I simply don't want another Mario in the game unless it's good ol' Doc, I am not fond of Paper Mario, and I have an ignorant Bias towards him, I don't really have a justifable reason outside of "I don't like him"

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@TreKoops
I simply don't want another Mario in the game unless it's good ol' Doc, I am not fond of Paper Mario, and I have an ignorant Bias towards him, I don't really have a justifable reason outside of "I don't like him"

Oh, I know that he probably/won't get in, but It's odd because you just said "YEAH" To the koopalings idea, yet went ":l" to the Paper Mario idea. Both of which are rather unlikeable, but both are also unique.

I'm just having trouble thinking up a Third party member for him that works.

Spoiler

no saying SPM because I'm going by partners who actually have a soul.

 

[Pieman0920]

Why would Dr. Mario mean something to you and Paper Mario be hated? They are both Mario. Heck, the one you hate is the one who almost certainly wouldn't be the clone.

Anyways as for Paper Mario, what I always have thought a good idea for him is if he has the ability to change his specials be changing his partner. For instance he he used his down B, it could switch between three partners (one from PM, PM2, and SPM) and each of them would give him different specials. His standard attacks and Final Smash though would stay the same despite his partner though.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Pieman
You forget I like clones, and I dislike Paper Mario, seems like a no-brainer there.

@TreKoops
The thing again comes back to my personal bias. I do not want to see Paper Mario doing anything In Smash, regardless of his uniquities (there are many characters who can be unique) while I don't mind Bowser Junior (If he has the koopalings), though like I said I only want to see it happen if it can actually be pulled off.

 

[Big-Cat]

I love the idea but programming wise, I just don't see it as practical. It's better than merely making Bowser Jr into a clone however...

It's an interesting idea, I'll say that, but I'm aware that it would be difficult to be implemented properly.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I mean, it could work, but it would take too much time. Maybe some of the Koopalings, but shoving them all with Bowser Jr is going to be really hard to Justify.

Well, since you mentioned SOME of the Koopalings, we have the issue of which ones become part of the moveset. You either put them all in, or you don't put any of them in.

It takes up his main 7 attacks though. Everything else is just generic jabs and kicks. This isn't MYM we are talking about where the standard moves can get all crazy either, so really you could just put about anyone in Bowser Jr.'s spot there and you'd have the exact same results. And in regards to Olimar, that's how in game...and the moves are still half dependent on him and not just the Pikmin. Bowser Jr. has teamed up with the Koopalings once out of all his apperances, and even then he never directly works with them for anything combat wise.

I hate to sound rude, but can you come up with something that isn't generic for Bowser Jr.?

Anyway, whether or not he hasn't teamed up with his siblings all at once doesn't matter all that much since a lot of liberties are taken for moves; case in point, Ice Climbers, Zelda, Capt. Falcon, etc.

And if he can still move around with them doing those attacks, doesn't that mean he can use the other one there? Pottentially you've got like 12 different character models running around at once there, and even more if Bowser Jr. does another move. If you've got four of these guys out on the field at once, you'll have Koopalings constantly popping in and out causing lots of lag and confusion. It really doesn't work out that well.

Not necessarily. It can be set up where only one is out at a time. At most, you'd have eight models on screen at the same time, but mind you that the models themselves aren't supposed to be out for long anyway. Also, to reduce confusion, you can always color code them like the PT Pokemon. As for lag, that should only apply online assuming the FPS remains constant offline.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Anyways as for Paper Mario, what I always have thought a good idea for him is if he has the ability to change his specials be changing his partner. For instance he he used his down B, it could switch between three partners (one from PM, PM2, and SPM) and each of them would give him different specials. His standard attacks and Final Smash though would stay the same despite his partner though.

I think the Partners should be:
Goombario (Goombella Alt)
Vivian (Bow Alt)
Koops (Kooper Alt, possibly Parakarry as well and Lakilester)

As for moveset, I almost got that down enough. Just need to tweak it a bit and I'll post it later.

. I do not want to see Paper Mario doing anything In Smash

PAPER MARIO STAGE PAPER MARIO STAGE PAPER MARIO STAGE.

YOU CAN'T DENY THAT.

Well, since you mentioned SOME of the Koopalings, we have the issue of which ones become part of the moveset. You either put them all in, or you don't put any of them in.

Yeah, that's the main problem. You might as well roll dice to decide which ones.

I hate to sound rude, but can you come up with something that isn't generic for Bowser Jr.?

I can. I'll post it later with the PM One.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@TreKoops

I guess I worded that wrong. I just meant I don't want him playable.

 

[Dsull]

As for the whole paper mario thing, i'd support it.
Paper Mario universe atleast has some stuff in it that differs from the normal Mario universe (i.e. the drones following you as suggested before).

Just because the name is the same, doesnt mean theyre exact clones. In the original, Luigi was almost 100% identical to Mario and in Melee it wasnt that far apart either. Even in Brawl they could be considered "cloned characters" because theyre from the same game and same history. Are they the same now though? Hell no, Luigi plays nothing like Mario now.

Probably the only "clone" that exists right now is Falco and Fox. Not very many noticable differences outside the shield. Wolf on the other hand is almost a total backflip on gameplay style (slower, heavier hitting vs faster, quick thinking)

(I bring them up because i want Krystal in the game **** it lol)

 

[Big-Cat]

Probably the only "clone" that exists right now is Falco and Fox. Not very many noticable differences outside the shield. Wolf on the other hand is almost a total backflip on gameplay style (slower, heavier hitting vs faster, quick thinking)

(I bring them up because i want Krystal in the game **** it lol)

Actually, Toon Link is probably the only true clone left in Smash unless you count Ganondorf. Falco's got enough to where he's the Ken to Fox's Ryu while Wolf is Akuma. Alternatively, he's Luigi, Fox is Mario, and Wolf is Wario (weird analogy but I'll stick with it).

Anyway, why do you want Krystal? Are you a furry?! Just kidding, I'd love to see Krystal in, and I've been like that since I first played Starfox Adventures.

As for Paper Mario, I'm neutral on him. I'd rather see Toad, Bowser Jr., and maybe Rosalina before Paper Mario.

Koops, bring out the moveset. Arc's Toad moveset made me start liking him for Smash and seeing what his style would be, maybe you can do the same for Paper Mario.

 

[Pieman0920]

@KumaOso

Bowser Jr. has several unused abilities such as the painbrush and Koopa Clown car which he can use. I guess the Koopa shell ability may have to be a attack that others have used, but its something that he does, so there's no real helping that. There's also his fireball, which could have the mechanics that it does in most of the games (stays level in the air. Packs a punch. Moves kind of slow. We actually have not had a fireball like that)

And while there are certain liberties taken with moves, we don't get character team ups where the characters really don't have much to do with each other. The Ice Climbers were always a pair, Zelda is Sheik, PT's Pokemon are all starters that he would of have had to have, and for the Diddy/Dixie pair we almost had is based off of DKC2. The Koopalings though are a almost completely seperate entity than Bowser Jr, and while they are all Bowser's kids (not counting that retcon in NSMBWii) they still don't interact with each other. Plus, given that Bowser Jr. already has moves to use, there's no real reason to try to improvise. All those characters you mentioned there didn't have enough moves on their own and thus stuff had to be made up, but that's just not the case for BJ.

@Koopa

In any case, for Paper Mario's parnets, my idea was always Parakarry, Goombella, and Tippi, with Tippi being able to transform to resemble other helpers from SPM in her specials. The only real problem I see with that type of set up though is that Goombella may not have enough real attacks to go with.

Of course the thing with Paper Mario is that he actually doesn't need the partners to give him a unique moveset, and could have a unique set of specials all on his own.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

On the topic of Junior's moveset, here's a little something I came up with, but forgot to post.

Neutral: Magic Fire: Junior coughs up a colored-fireball. This attack is *chargeable* and can be fired at an angle a la Sheik's needles when used in the air. Watch these three videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWbhQqj3YEw#t=4m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YueRfcFOyV8#t=10m38s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDinI6VByWs#t=1m53s

Note the the color and speed of the flame. Blue is slow, green is quicker, purple follows an angled trajectory. Uncharged, Junior will fire the blue fireball. Charged, and he will fire the green fireball.

Forward: Graffiti Goop: Junior uses his magic paintbrush to deface an area with goop. In Sunshine, there are various types of goop, most harmful to Mario. Electro Graffiti or electrogoop inflicts damage and stuns the opponent a la ZSS paralyzer. Lava Graffiti or lava goop burns whoever walks over it. Tar Graffiti or tar goop can either slicken the ground or sticken the ground.

Up: Koopa Clown Car: Junior hops into the helicopter-like vehicle and fly for a certain amount of time. If Junior is hit, the car will change its expression from happy to sad. It can take three hits before being destroyed. The propeller can be used to harm opponent(s).

Down: Bill Blaster: Junior carries a mini-portable black cannon which fires a bullet bill which homes in on a opponent.

The Koopalings though are a almost completely seperate entity than Bowser Jr, and while they are all Bowser's kids (not counting that retcon in NSMBWii) they still don't interact with each other.

Spoiler

There's a scene at the very end of the game where Junior is seen gesturing to Iggy Larry, if that counts.

 

[DekuBoy]

Spirit Tracks out on Friday in Europe. Just reminding everyone.

I'm against putting in multiple versions of any character but I know they are gonna put in two Links non-the-less.

 

[Pieman0920]

@Scooby

I knew about that, but I couldn't remember the specifics of it so I neglected to mention that and their running away in the begining, since its still not enough to disregard all the other games Bowser Jr's been in and make him take a second seat to the Koopalings. Plus it was Larry, not Iggy.

 

[n88]

New Poll is up!

This one was made a bit quicker than the last. I think I covered all the charcaters that need to be on there, but if you see someone missing, let me know ASAP.

Remember, all results are back down to zero! If you voted before today, you gotta vote again!

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@Kuma:
I shall grant your wish. Bowser Jr shall be posted up later due to post length.

Paper Mario's Partners: A Bit about each one of them. Note: Each partner will have the HP You set them too before the match. Mario will also be able to see there HP As well to strategize.

Koops - Koopa's are awesome. (What? You didn't expect this with my Screenname? Madness!)
General Stats:
-Koops has the best recovery
-Koops is mid in Speed
-Koops has the highest Defense play
-Koops is mid in Attack Level
-Koops is low for Combo's

Goombario - First partner in any Paper Mario game ever.
-Goombario has the Worst recovery
-Goombario is Low in Speed
-Goombario has the weakeast/Lowest defense play
-Goombario is High in Attack Level
-Goombario is Mid for Combo's

Ms. Mowz - First unlockable partner in any Paper Mario game ever.
-Ms.Mowz has Mid in recovery
-Ms.Mowz is High in Speed
-Ms.Mowz has Mid Defense Play
-Ms.Mowz is Low in attack level
-Ms.Mowz is High for Combo's

So in short:
-Koops is one you want to have out when you need to defend. He can fire quite a hit. It's also great to have him out when you're high up in Damage, since he has THE Best recovery.
-Ms.Mowz is great for Comboing. She's to use mid or earlier on in a match. Some of her moves can be really match changing or devistating, while others, less so.
-Goombario is more of an Attacker. He can Combo pretty well, but be careful. His recovery is pretty awful. He's more risky than the other two

Now for the Moveset:
The A Moves consist of Hammer. Some of the Aerial moves shall actually consist of his Spikey boots. B Moves and Final Smash?

Down B - Swap/Ground Pound
The interesting thing about Paper Mario is that your "Switch" Meter has to develop some before switching. I can write out how it would look like along with Partners, but the thing is It'll start out at 0. Over time with the Partner and with Combo's along with other moves (Not spamming, anyone?) The meter can develop faster.

Once it measures at 100, which can go by very quickly or very painfully, Mario has the option of switching his partner on the Ground. If the Partner per say dies, Mario will be left on his own, sadly leaving the Meter to have a harder time filling up and going down by 20 Points. I haven't FULLY Developed the concept, but it would work something like this.

In the Air, Paper Mario does his Ground Pound from TTYD. A Shard will spit out on the side he's facing at times, so If you don't land it on the enemy, a shard can still pop out and go pretty far.

Up B - Depends on Partner

Paper Mario by himself - Will do the Spring Jump in TTYD. Most likely won't do well, but If failed, he'll go into his paper form falling but If a part falls on the Ledge, he still has a chance! This move can be great in Doubles.

Koops - Koops will have you ride on his shell as he'll beam upwards in a LONG Range to get back up. A very stable recovery with It's only disadvantage being punishable

Ms.Mowz - Her and Paper Mario will use Tease to make themselves so dizzy that they'll be able to walk up. Mediocore recovery.

Goombario - Goombario will come to Mario's rescue and let Mario hop in him, however Goombario will have a hard time reaching back up, resulting possibly badly.

Side B - Hammer Swing
Straight from The Thousand Year Door once more. This one will work easily. Paper Mario will have his Side B swinging his hammer around. However, an "Action Command" Will come up. Sometimes you have to do it fast, slow, or in the middle like how you have to decide when to release when the Star comes up.

If you do this right, not more damage will come up, but More Knockback comes up.

B - Depends on Partner

Mario - Holds his Spikey Hammer down/chargeable. Release whenever ready.

Koops - Shell Toss - Koops will toss his shell. Chargeable for Range and able to hold like in TTYD And in the Original.

ALTERNATIVE MOVE IDEA FOR KOOPS - Shell Shield...Haven't quite worked this one out yet.

Goombario - Headbonk - Isn't this obvious? Goombario will do a Headbonk. Chargeable to decide how many he'll do, but as you charge, power can go down a bit.

Ms. Mowz - Smooch - If close, Ms. Mowz will give you a smooch thus healing you, however it'll take a beating on her HP And make her have to run away from enemies for a bit. This is rather hard to use, so you won't be using it often.

Regular Stuff: What partners do when you don't command them As your Slaves
Koops - Tosses his Shell around enemies

Ms. Mowz - Slaps and attempts to steal HP From them.

Goombario - Headbonk - Duh. However less comboish and runs around than the others.

FINAL SMASH - Supernova
Stars will come up. You'll have to press A For a long time and the barrage can go on pretty long. To about 20 Seconds max! Nothing else is really decided on this

Taunts
Haven't gotten around to that.

Done.

Overall:
Paper Mario is pretty easy to learn and a fun character, but he can be very hard to master. He's less dependent on his partner's unlike Ice Climbers, Olimar, and PT, but that's at a BIG Cost of them all being evenish.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

This one was made a bit quicker than the last. I think I covered all the charcaters that need to be on there, but if you see someone missing, let me know ASAP.

Remember, all results are back down to zero! If you voted before today, you gotta vote again!

Yeah, where's Geno? :v

 

[Pieman0920]

@Koopa.

While I don't approve of not having a SPM partner in there, I understand the logic behind it. Thus my major criticism is that you have Koops there instead of Perakarry. You can basically have all of Koops' (or Kooper's) regular abilities with the added bonus of having a recovery that makes sense. Also wind attacks.

 

[n88]

D'oh!

He should show up within the next ten minutes (I just added him, but it takes a while to update).

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@Koopa.

While I don't approve of not having a SPM partner in there, I understand the logic behind it. Thus my major criticism is that you have Koops there instead of Perakarry. You can basically have all of Koops' (or Kooper's) regular abilities with the added bonus of having a recovery that makes sense. Also wind attacks.

Well yeah. Parakarry was actually one of my last Partners when I was cutting partners, and he's one of my favorites. The thing about Parakarry however was not having the optional Shield move. I dunno. I may replace Koops. I can see Parakarry, Ms. Mowz, and Goombario in the update picture, but Koops works pretty fine as well. As for SPM: One of the Taunts I had involves Tippi coming up. It's the least I could do.

Also I'm loving the activity on the stage discussion group.

Any other critism on the moveset would be welcomed. I think I captured the general feel of Paper Mario well with it. A bit more TTYD Than the other two but meh, whatever.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Koops
I'm not sure if I'm all that fond of it for a few reasons.
1. I still don't like how they can act independent.
2. I understand the inspiration, but I don't like the idea of giving the partners a fixed amount of HP. That and I think a healing attack, evit en with the cost would be broken. At least PSI Magnet acts as a projectile counter.
3. The partner meter is a bad idea. What if you need a certain partner for a situation?

Here's my suggestion. We go ahead and take what you have in mind for their traits and apply them to Paper Mario's moveset. In other words, Paper Mario would have three different types of special movesets; a first in Smash history. The partners are always with Paper Mario like the Pikmin, but like you said, he is not dependent on them.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@Koops
I'm not sure if I'm all that fond of it for a few reasons.
1. I still don't like how they can act independent.

Remember however: Mario and his Partner are about as strong as say...Pichu and the Pink Ice Climber? I can see how this can cause damage in One on One's personally, as I think I put too much emphasis on making him a doubles character. The partners will be a bit run around full, and the hitstun on them makes them pretty balanced.

However, I still can very well see a bit of the damage this can do. It's not fun having Koops use his Shell Toss and Paper Mario bashing you in the face with a hammer.

2. I understand the inspiration, but I don't like the idea of giving the partners a fixed amount of HP. That and I think a healing attack, evit en with the cost would be broken. At least PSI Magnet acts as a projectile counter.

Fixed Ammount - And as I said, the inspiration on this comes from the game. The competitive scene will find out how much is exactly "Needed". The ability to have Partner's die like they can in Stanima effects a lot, because in short, it makes the idea more balanced. Especially in One on One's.

Healing - It's not quite healing. It's Ms. Mowz transfering at a gigantic cost. If you have a better idea, feel free to state, but I couldn't find much else since her slapping already involves it when she's independent.

3. The partner meter is a bad idea. What if you need a certain partner for a situation?

Simple - Get the Partner Meter up. It can go up very quickly as stated. The only situation you'll really need them for is recovering,or possibly certain strategies.

Your idea is possible too. Having them act independent does create a lot, and moreso independent than the freaking Pink Ice Climber. However; Independence is what makes the Partner's as they are, as Mario and them work together to attack at similar timings.

 

[SmashChu]

Why do I need to bring out some example when that's not what I'm been focusing on this whole time? I'm arguing for depth, not difficulty.

However, if you really want evidence of a difficult game selling, I'd take a look at Shino's post.

You've been arguing for features that increase "depth," but are going to make the game harder. They are not really organic to the game, and feel forced, and increase difficulty overall. Example:One way to increase depth in a game like Smash would be to make a character, stage, or item that breaks the mold of the game. Melee did this by adding stages that moved, making the normal fight much deeper. A lack of depth would be FD since the stage is static.

The point of the evidence is still to back up your argument. You did bring something, so gold star for you.

Toise explained part of Madden's success, but Wii Sports is a good indicator of how accessibility effects the market place. Sports games have been hard, but then Wii Sports took it, made it easier, and blew the market away. Smash did something similar, but on a much smaller scale.

Toise made a good post above yours in how accessibility and depth relate. What I recommend is to avoid looking at Street Fighter and other fighting games as a way to add depth (save Smash of course). Street Fighter 2 is a good mold as it was very successful, but the problem is that the other games fell flat right after, so making a squeal and making changes is much harder. You can avoid the faults of later Street Fighter games, but making new strides is more important.

I apologized because you misinterpreted one of my earlier posts, and I figured that something like that has been keeping these arguments alive this whole time.

You think I'm looking at just the competitive level? Have you not noticed that just about every post I've made recently mentions that I'm stressing for a balance between accessibility and depth?

The problem is that you are looking though competitive lenses. This is why you make "Neo Wave Dashing," a feature that adds very little for most players and will turn them off to the game. To do what you want, you have to ignore every other fighting game that has ever existed and consider them failures. From there, you can make an idea that breaks the convention.

Let me end this post with one more thing: Do you think Smash should be further simplified?

Yes. As I mentioned before, the game is too hard to grasp, and most everyone who would enjoy Smash has bought it. The next step for the series is to make a way for new players to get into it who would have avoided the last three games.