Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Jim Morrison]

All in favor of dropping ditto discussion, which obviously makes no sense, cause it revolves ALL about mindgames and skill, and not matchup, and continue with MK discussion.

I am :O

 

[Chis]

If they decide to use the HA, either shield it and Uair or run way/side step/roll so it losses its lock and punish.

 

[Jim Morrison]

As said before, beat the meat already has that info in it. Just read that thread for an extremely detailed ditto discussion.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Is there a match that kinda' needs to be gone over again?

 

[Kinzer]

There's a lot of controversy on matchups, OJ man. Don't worry about not being able to participate in discussion just because we've gone over all the characters once.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Oh I'm not. It's just with the Sonic dittos discussion coming to a close, I saw a sort of 'void' coming.

... OJ man, huh? That's not bad.

 

[Chis]

I recommend we make a 'How to beat _____ thread, but for Marth, Metaknight and Game and Watch. We discuss, how do deal with their attacks, CPs etc, etc while to OP get updated. And I'll link them to the OP of this thread.

 

[Camalange]

How about "How to beat lolimar"?

I freakin' hate lolimar...so much that I won't type out his name without using the word "lol".

Oh, and I should be getting around to that ROB type up soon.
That match up is totally 60:40 ROB's favor by the way, no doubt.
So I recommend that we chang that 55:45 to 60:40.

 

[da K.I.D.]

cam. agreed.

kin: his name is orange soda. not orange juice. lol

im also in favor of moving on to the next matchup. its up to you guys to determine who we talk about now

 

[JayBee]

i know some may not wanna, but id sure like to talk about metaknight matchup again. id love to hear from the ones with the most meta experience talk about how thier mindset is when fightign him, what they are look for, what they bait, and how they usually respond to certain moves.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

For quick reference, ours:

MK
lolimar
GW
Marth

And theirs:
GW
Marth
MK
lolimar


idk if someone wants to make a focused thread like Chis was saying. That'd be good.

 

[Chis]

It's Chis OSM, not ChRis...

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

fixed. two name errors in the same page? that's wack.

Spoiler

even if Kinzer's was on purpose >_< /10ifails

 

[ShadowLink84]

So i playe Owl's MK and I must say, i think i see what Malcolm means when he felt the matchup wasn't a hard counter.
Of course I lost since I dont do well under pressure (LOL I missed all my kill moves at the end) and from the way he plays against MK, I am starting to think its not as bad as initially thought. its still a bad amtchup but, not so much. @_@

 

[Boxob.]

I went even with M2K during a friendly.

Discuss.

 

[Napilopez]

So, I got 10stocked by my family and wasn't able to go to this, which left me feeling extremely upset.

Nevertheless, assuming m2k went MK congrats boxoboxob.

Still D: that I couldn't go gahhhhhh.

T_T

I'd be glad to start a detaled guide for figting MK.

Its really important to bait and punish. It always is, but really important against MK. Contraryto popular belief, SS tier does have punishable lag. Particulary useful is it forr you to bait ftilts. I is one of their most used moves, arguably mks best. But it has endlag so easily punishable by sonikku. stand at the tip of mks range, dash away and dashdance pivot back forthe grab. I also lie baiting aerial shuttle loops for a free 4% damage with spring.

As I've always said, the matchup ain't so bad at all, yo.

 

[thecatinthehat]

So, I did poorly, cuz G&W is gay.

I need match up help! Some Falco help would be good too.

I can dash dance consistently now! ^_^

 

[ShadowLink84]

I went even with M2K during a friendly.

Discuss.

The main issue with MK is that he plays soooo **** safe. And you do have to risk yourself in order to punish the little lag that he has, there is also the issue that he kills faster than you too.
Its basically sonic's hardest matchup, because this is a character who is just so safe, that there isn't much that can be done without risking yourself in the process.

Hmm im thinkings is a hard counter again suddenly XD

 

[Napilopez]

Gah sl!

He's not sonic's hardest matchup, unless by hardest you mean around 40:60 maybe.

MK is not nearly as safe as a good one may lead you to believe.

Give me exactly what mk has so safe onsonic, and I bet I will be able to give you a response to most situations.

Btw, don't be afraid to spring bomb mk at close range, he can't to anything about it, as his attacks get owned by projectiles. His uair is quite a bit less functional. Shuttle loop is owned.

How exactly does mk kill us earlier? We are much heavier and have beter momentum cancelling, and sonic should NOT be getting gimped lolz. At worst, we die at similar percetages.

I already wrote alot about this matchup a few pages ago. Yea you need to bait reactions, but you don't really have to put yourselfnin danger to do so. Sonic hair heats mks dair, vertically. Lots of mks like to jump around alot using dairs without landing. Just wait till they have to land and punish accordingly. Dtilt combos at low percents. Play quick, but don't take stupid risks. Shield cancel stuff slot. Don't try to spotdodge>grab mks dsmash without think of your timig first, you will lose.

I will not accept mk being recognized as a sonic hard counter,barely maybe a soft counter

 

[Kinzer]

I recommend we make a 'How to beat _____ thread, but for Marth, Metaknight and Game and Watch. We discuss, how do deal with their attacks, CPs etc, etc while to OP get updated. And I'll link them to the OP of this thread.

You already made a couple trheads similar to what you describbed, silly! Go revive them why don't you? ^_^

cam. agreed.

kin: his name is orange soda. not orange juice. lol

im also in favor of moving on to the next matchup. its up to you guys to determine who we talk about now

Third.

I know that, and I'd rather not have to use the name OS in such a holy place as this. Besides I like the OJ Man better, reminds me of those nostalgic momeories of when the Ice Cream truck came to my neighborhood and I bought those Sonic/Tweety bird popsicle thingies.

I wish Sonic was Steak flavored though/they had a posicle with a Steak shape, that would be totally BA.

i know some may not wanna, but id sure like to talk about metaknight matchup again. id love to hear from the ones with the most meta experience talk about how thier mindset is when fightign him, what they are look for, what they bait, and how they usually respond to certain moves.

I third this, I'm starting to think 65/35 was only because we feared him since he was/still is the best char in the game/he looks like that on-paper/we didn't/might not know our game to the fullest, which the matchup could be debated down to be 6:4 and possibly 55:45 if you're crazy enoguh to believe that even though Sonic is one of the best MK counters.

I went even with M2K during a friendly.

Discuss.

He probably sandbagged/Malcolm sett he line for beating him in one match in a tourney set. Good to hear you got the chance to fight M2K but we all still have quite a ways to go.

So, I did poorly, cuz G&W is gay.

I need match up help! Some Falco help would be good too.

I can dash dance consistently now! ^_^

L2 play defensively, seriously it makest he matchup winnable.

Spinshot over Falco's lazahs moar.

cool beans.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I know that, and I'd rather not have to use the name OS in such a holy place as this. Besides I like the OJ Man better, reminds me of those nostalgic momeories of when the Ice Cream truck came to my neighborhood and I bought those Sonic/Tweety bird popsicle thingies.

lol it's fine dude call me whatever. It's all good.

Spoiler

what's wrong with saying orange soda on this website though?

 

[Camalange]

Orange Soda.

Oh, and ggs all around to the Sonic's who attended GIMPED! Wish the matches were freakin' streamed though...

 

[da K.I.D.]

"OS" on SWF = Overswarm.

and Overswarm = fail.

anyways, what can MK do that sonic cant answer...

fair to d tilt.

seriously, it wrecks sonic really bad.
Not to say its unpunishable, but its really stupid. Its ranged and fast enough to cover our options. Sure you CAN attack him before he lands from the fair, but WILL you? im guessing not, cause the oppurtunity window is freakishly small. As a matter of fact, when i beat ownas MK in my last tourney, there was one point where I pulled a perfect side b, and the invincibility got me through his fair, and his down tilt still hit me out of my attack cause it was that fast. and on other occasion, he tried to down tilt me, and i spaced a side b perfectly to go right over it, and he keep down tilting and the attacks traded hits, it was stupid as hell.

his b moves can be dealt with, but that doesnt change teh fact that if you get hit with a 5 frame shuttle loop offstage, you are going to die, and its super easy to set up for. and the risk is almost null.

"Oh, Look!! I can punish you super fast attack that you can set up and unleash when ever the hell you want, with 4 and possibly 12 damage!!"

Is that really going to stop them from going for it? because even if you pull that off 7 times in a row, he takes less than 30% and if it hits you, you die. its an amazing trade off for metaknight.

tornado is another story. tornado is easily dealt with to the point where its useless to use on sonic.

But the b moves arent the problem, MKs basic attacks tear sonic up.

What are you going to do to MKs down air? fair? no. MK has more horisontal range than sonic in that instance. up air? MK is faster and has more horisontal range than the first hit, and the second hit is WAYYY too slow to rely on. back air? ha. MKs down air is so fast that than even if you out range him with the back air, its slow enough for him to avoid entirely even when he whiffs the down air.

you can beat him, it just takes way to much effort and thats what dictates the fact that MK probably counters sonic

 

[Napilopez]

anyways, what can MK do that sonic cant answer...

fair to d tilt.

seriously, it wrecks sonic really bad.
Not to say its unpunishable, but its really stupid. Its ranged and fast enough to cover our options. Sure you CAN attack him before he lands from the fair, but WILL you? im guessing not, cause the oppurtunity window is freakishly small. As a matter of fact, when i beat ownas MK in my last tourney, there was one point where I pulled a perfect side b, and the invincibility got me through his fair, and his down tilt still hit me out of my attack cause it was that fast. and on other occasion, he tried to down tilt me, and i spaced a side b perfectly to go right over it, and he keep down tilting and the attacks traded hits, it was stupid as hell.

You shouldn't be trying to beat it from the air. You running shield grab it. If you powershield, I believe the infzy frames from powershielding will protect you from the rest of fair. And its not a big deal anyways. Anything followups after dtilt should be escapable with a spring away.

I know you placed it only as an example, but using sideB invincy frames against metaknight is a bad option overall. Those frames should only be used for like a single powerful move, with sufficient startup lag or end lag. MK doesn't have these, he can followup with something after your invincibility is over and the SideB is continuing. Als, if you are spacing with fastfalled bairs, then the trade ff should be pretty even, as Bair does more damage and is longer ranged than metas fair. Remember that metas airspeed is horrible too.

his b moves can be dealt with, but that doesnt change teh fact that if you get hit with a 5 frame shuttle loop offstage, you are going to die, and its super easy to set up for. and the risk is almost null.

"Oh, Look!! I can punish you super fast attack that you can set up and unleash when ever the hell you want, with 4 and possibly 12 damage!!"

Is that really going to stop them from going for it? because even if you pull that off 7 times in a row, he takes less than 30% and if it hits you, you die. its an amazing trade off for metaknight.

Nonono D:

=P

You really should not be getting hit with shuttle loop at all offstage. Its not a risk reward type of thing, its the fact that reacting with a spring will virtually always beat out shuttle loop. Shuttle loop comes out on frame 5, but the hitbx has to travel the path of the loop, and very rarely will MK be directly in front of you so that you have absolutely no time to react to it.

Its simply reaction. You hear MK go "HA!" and yu immediately press upB. Simple as that. Free damage, while MK has to compromise his positioning. If he is so close that you don't have time t react, than its no different from being killed by nair or something. Its also pretty darn easy t read when MK should be using shuttle loop, because he has to be psitioned right for it to hit you. If you know theshuttle lops path, then you should be able to avoid it by springing early anyhow.

Shuttle loop is virtually worthless as an aerial/offstage KO tactic against sonic. Its positioningis too predictable. Virtually anytime you are above MK, you should just spring to safety, since nothing he has can punish a spring coming from above.

tornado is another story. tornado is easily dealt with to the point where its useless to use on sonic.

Yeps. Except tornado Pwns ASC when used the nad is used for punishment. But if you can react with a midair jump, you're fine.

What are you going to do to MKs down air? fair? no. MK has more horisontal range than sonic in that instance. up air? MK is faster and has more horisontal range than the first hit, and the second hit is WAYYY too slow to rely on. back air? ha. MKs down air is so fast that than even if you out range him with the back air, its slow enough for him to avoid entirely even when he whiffs the down air.

The point is you space with Bairs so he cant hit you with it in the first place. His airspeed is horrible anyways, so I dubt he will be avoiding wellspaced bairs. And Bair has no end lag. Bair does more damage. Its a pretty even tradeoff.

 

[JayBee]

just to let you guys know, apparently MK has a Dtilt>Ftilt (first hit) frame trap.
im trying it in training mode, and although i havent mastered it
, this is gay. or future gay. discuss.


btw I second MK, so im not simply a hater of the phantom menace, however...

I also would like to point out that although he my second, i dont train with him nearly as much as i do with sonic, because i dont feel that i have to. I win with meta, because he is meta, not on my own merit, outside of the general smash know how that all advanced players share.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

See im right when i said Sonic can be a MK counter you just have to know your stuff about both characters. napilopez's statements show that its somewhat possible and that if we sonic's work harder to exploiting MK's weak spots we can dethrone the spammy tyrant once and for all! Heres to the fall of MK's and the rising of a bold new BLUE STEAK: SONIC THE HEDGEHOG FOR STEAK TIER!!!!!!

 

[infomon]

See im right when i said Sonic can be a MK counter you just have to know your stuff about both characters. napilopez's statements show that its somewhat possible and that if we sonic's work harder to exploiting MK's weak spots we can dethrone the spammy tyrant once and for all! Heres to the fall of MK's and the rising of a bold new BLUE STEAK: SONIC THE HEDGEHOG FOR STEAK TIER!!!!!!

Quoted for epic

with a side-order of lolz

 

[JayBee]

@ kid craft 24/sonic master: whoa ease up on the steak sauce kid.
lest the mew2king find ye and doth dee smash ye ... to heck.

 

[Napilopez]

Lololol.

<3 Sonic boards.

Sonic isn't an mk counter KC, let me make that clear. I doubt he will ever be. You may be able to beat metaknights cosistently, but so could I. We're talking about the matchup at a very high level of play, with both players knowing the matcjup extremely well, which most people dont. He just stands a great chance against him in tourney play, I feel. I'm saying MK is 60:40 at worst in real life play, which is bad, but not so bad at all. I also think the matchup is heavily contingent on the Sonic's playstyle. I don't see über defensive or über aggro Sonics doing too well here honestly.




I've written plenty of walls of text as to why the Sonic/MK matchup isn't so bad, so let me simplify.

Metanight is the best character in the game. He has several moves that destroys certain matchups, or general qualities that make him pwn.

The thing about Sonic is that he has an answer for. Almost every situation, every move. He makes some of his best moves virtually useless. Of course you won't be able to do so all the time, or even most of the time, but you can do it enough so that it's not so bad. And don't forget sonic has his own positive qualities too.

I mean, forget about however you may personally do against meta, and just think about that. At least to me, there is no reason why sonic should be getting destroyed like he would if MK was truly a counter like pika is to fox(perhaps too extreme of an example). So what if MK can land a couple of fairs because he's so quick? Go powershield the next one and grab him into uthrow+ followup.

MK doesn't outrange you. Perhaps overall but not in the moves Sonic SHOULD be using.

MK doesn't outlive you. You weigh more and have better momentum cancelling.

MK doesn't outgrab you. Sonic grabs are win. Btw, don't forget you can grab MK directly from the ledge.

MK doesn't outgimp you. Not if your recovering appropriately. HE may land a couple, but so may you.

MK doesn't outrun you. Duh.

MK doesn't outdamage you. Asc, uthrow, bair, pummels, etc.
Man, MK can't even PLANK against you on most stages. All you have to do is spring bomb him. His uair doesn't stop it.

What mk does do is kill you more easily, thanks only to dsmash, and outspeed you with his moves. He also has more moves than you do to react to certain situations, so he doesn't have to be as picky with his moves. But that's almost more of a skill level thing.

LOL, this ended up being a wall anyways.

And Kojin, wasn't that already known? Isn't ist just buffering stilt into ftilt? There's also the m2k combo which involves glide attack>dtilt>ftilt I believe, yielding about 40 percent damage. Only works at low percentages tho I think.

 

[Nixernator]

To be honest I think the match up is 65:35-60:40 metaknight. Sonic may have the answers, but thats just it he doesn't have any questions to ask of MK. When playing MK you have to work so much harder and mindgame him so much more to deal the same damage, and he kills just so much earlier his D-smash is so OP all he needs to do is land it just once over 100% and its basically lights out. But on the flip side if you can avoid that, and shuttle loop (which is easy to Spring out on instinct), he should struggle a fair bit more to kill you. Since he can't really gimp Sonic a huge part of his game is gone. The thing is tho that 90%-95% of MK you see at tourneys are scrubs who have no idea of the matchup and suck at mindgames since they've always been like LOLOLOL D-SMASH WHORENADO LOLOLOL and most players have much experience against MK because of the sheer fact you end up facing many of them if you play competitively. This gives the impression that the matchup is more even than it is IMO, at the highest levels I think it is still definitely a sizeable advantage to MK.

 

[Napilopez]

To be honest I think the match up is 65:35-60:40 metaknight. Sonic may have the answers, but thats just it he doesn't have any questions to ask of MK. When playing MK you have to work so much harder and mindgame him so much more to deal the same damage, and he kills just so much earlier his D-smash is so OP all he needs to do is land it just once over 100% and its basically lights out. But on the flip side if you can avoid that, and shuttle loop (which is easy to Spring out on instinct), he should struggle a fair bit more to kill you. Since he can't really gimp Sonic a huge part of his game is gone. The thing is tho that 90%-95% of MK you see at tourneys are scrubs who have no idea of the matchup and suck at mindgames since they've always been like LOLOLOL D-SMASH WHORENADO LOLOLOL and most players have much experience against MK because of the sheer fact you end up facing many of them if you play competitively. This gives the impression that the matchup is more even than it is IMO, at the highest levels I think it is still definitely a sizeable advantage to MK.

You don't really give a reason as t why its on MKs advantage though. He has a better kill move? Sonic is Heavier and has better momentum cancelling.

Honestly, so what if we hae to mindgame him? We mindgame everyone. Its what Sonic's do. Stake. See, I just mindgamed you by thinking I said Steak, but instead I spelled it wrong. Steak. Just because its easier for metaknight, doesn't mean he has the advantage. Pas a certai skill level, things balance out. I play a good metaknight that knw the matchup extremely well.

 

[Chis]

Just because high level Sonic's do well against Metaknights, it doesn't mean that Sonic is a counter.... >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

You don't really give a reason as t why its on MKs advantage though. He has a better kill move? Sonic is Heavier and has better momentum cancelling.

Honestly, so what if we hae to mindgame him? We mindgame everyone. Its what Sonic's do. Stake. See, I just mindgamed you by thinking I said Steak, but instead I spelled it wrong. Steak. Just because its easier for metaknight, doesn't mean he has the advantage. Pas a certai skill level, things balance out. I play a good metaknight that knw the matchup extremely well.

actually, thats exactly what it means...

and for the record i dont think low horisontal airspeed is really at all consequential as a detriment, because the fact is, for some reason, as a dreamland character, when he wants to, he can fall like a rock. and his verticle falling speed gives him the ability to get to the ground easily, and hes much faster on the ground than he is in the air.

also...
grounded shuttle loop ***** sonic hardcore, no lie.

pretty much anything you do, even a perfectly spaced back air can be overpowered and outprioritised by a grounded shuttle loop with invincible startup. and if you are over 130 you die, no questions asked.

p.s. nix is right, the only way to put MK in a bad situation is to be super grab happy

 

[Napilopez]

actually, thats exactly what it means...

Maybe I didn't phrase myself well enough. I mean like, in terms of technical skill, it may be easier for metaknight. But that doesn't mean he has the advantage. its kinda like saying marth vs Fox in melee. Fox is more technical but I believe the matchup was pretty even?

and for the record i dont think low horisontal airspeed is really at all consequential as a detriment, because the fact is, for some reason, as a dreamland character, when he wants to, he can fall like a rock. and his verticle falling speed gives him the ability to get to the ground easily, and hes much faster on the ground than he is in the air.

is his vertical fall speed that great? Regardless, you are right about him being much faster on the ground. Still slow compared to Sonic though. What I meant about airspeed being a detriment, is that he can't weave so effectively. If you shield his fair, Sonic slides far enough from a run to land a grab anyways. If he had quicker airspeed, that would not happen.

also...
grounded shuttle loop ***** sonic hardcore, no lie.

pretty much anything you do, even a perfectly spaced back air can be overpowered and outprioritised by a grounded shuttle loop with invincible startup. and if you are over 130 you die, no questions asked.

This is pretty true. Grounded shuttle loop is way too good. A perfectly spaced backair I don't think would have trouble though. Shuttle Loop is only invincible for one frame when grounded, lol. Plus, you usually shouldn't be so close to metakknight if for him to do it. And if he wants to do it out of shield, well, MK has a very stinky shield thats easily shieldpoked anyways.

p.s. nix is right, the only way to put MK in a bad situation is to be super grab happy

I kinda sorta agree. Tech chasing MK can be hard because he can often get an aerial out before you can regrab, so you gotta rely on baiting and stuff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

good MKs dont shield much....

also, if grounded s loop can beat GaWs back air, it can beat ours too

 

[JayBee]

im writing mad fast so forgive typos

i think that some of the problem when a sonic plays a metaknight is definately the matchup experience. you have to know what move that can rely on in given sonic situations.

I mean , at this point everyone knows that if sonic runs at a meta, they will throw out a fair or nair. A: bait it, powershild, and grab.

you up throw meta, what is he gonna do? dair, or air dodge. most likely its dair. at early percents its impossible to follow up because its so fast But if you fake it you can punish afterwards, right?

For me, its not that i dont know how to approach metas its just that you cant edgegaurd, a big part of sonics game is gimping and edgegaurding to compensate the lack of kill moves. then you are gonna lose every spot dodgewar, so you can't even stay close long. grab chase, and do it again. Then if a meta feels threatened, then WILL Mash B or UP B, or ledgecamp for a bit, which for the most part sonic cannot deal with outside of shield and run away. ( well tornado can be escaped with DI, the flow of the match is reset/put in his favor in anycase.)

I think sonic's jabs are an underated part of the matchup. jab into runaway, jab into grab, jab combo, jab into tilt... because the first jab connects on frame 3, thats very good. I think metas D smash comes out 1 frame after. if you shiled an aerial from MK then jab as a mindgame to yoru true intenitons... i think there is hope here.

I feel like if i have to, i will run from meta, or fake approaches the whole time. this is why DDP and good running tactics are important for sonic, because i need as much control over sonic as possible in order to punish the little lag he has, bait aerial counter attacks, etc. I beliive that if a Sonic is having an issue with Meta, they need to look at how well they run first.


to me, what makes meta broken is that he can control any situation, even when he should have aa hard time theoretically. And this can be accomplished with little training and effort. I know and have seen good metas, BUT for the majority of metas it is the easy way out.


... if feels like im blurting out random things, but im in a hurry, so ill check back later. cya.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think that some of the problem when a sonic plays a metaknight is definately the matchup experience. you have to know what move that can rely on in given sonic situations.

1. I mean , at this point everyone knows that if sonic runs at a meta, they will throw out a fair or nair. A: bait it, powershild, and grab.

you up throw meta, what is he gonna do? dair, or air dodge. most likely its dair. at early percents its impossible to follow up because its so fast But if you fake it you can punish afterwards, right?

2. For me, its not that i dont know how to approach metas its just that you cant edgegaurd, a big part of sonics game is gimping and edgegaurding to compensate the lack of kill moves. then you are gonna lose every spot dodgewar, so you can't even stay close long. grab chase, and do it again. Then if a meta feels threatened, then WILL Mash B or UP B, or ledgecamp for a bit, which for the most part sonic cannot deal with outside of shield and run away. ( well tornado can be escaped with DI, the flow of the match is reset/put in his favor in anycase.)

3. I think sonic's jabs are an underated part of the matchup. a. jab into runaway, b. jab into grab, c. jab combo, d. jab into tilt... because the first jab connects on frame 3, thats very good. I think metas D smash comes out 1 frame after. e. if you shiled an aerial from MK then jab as a mindgame to yoru true intenitons... i think there is hope here.

I feel like if i have to, i will run from meta, or fake approaches the whole time. this is why DDP and good running tactics are important for sonic, because i need as much control over sonic as possible in order to punish the little lag he has, bait aerial counter attacks, etc. I beliive that if a Sonic is having an issue with Meta, they need to look at how well they run first.


to me, what makes meta broken is that he can control any situation, even when he should have aa hard time theoretically. And this can be accomplished with little training and effort. I know and have seen good metas, BUT for the majority of metas it is the easy way out.


... if feels like im blurting out random things, but im in a hurry, so ill check back later. cya.

the parts i dont respond to are true

1. the MK i play against, if i approach directly, he counters with a full jump d air. which i cant really do anything to. it does put MK in a slightly disadvantaged sitch, but its really nothing MK cant handle.

2. not to mention that MK can up b you out of your combo if its either not a true combo or if you are at all late.

3. a. does 2% and resets the situation, possibly giving him stage control.
b. trying to jab grab gets you down smashed.
c. works and sets up for decent followups.
d. also gets you down smashed.
e. i like that idea but you have to be suuuuuuuper close to do it. also one idea i have is to jab, and than jump over his shield or down smash. in that case you are behind his shield and your options open up a lot.

 

[Napilopez]

good MKs dont shield much....

also, if grounded s loop can beat GaWs back air, it can beat ours too

Exactly, so MK shouldn't be hitting you so much with grounded shuttle loop in the first place, since its safest out of shield. If you're being hit by grounded shuttle loop more than a couple of times, you are playing too predictably I would think.

As for the bair, you're talking about a totally different situation. Shuttle loop is able to escape G&Ws bair once you are hit, if I'm not mistaken. Thats because G&Ws bair is a multihit move. Our Bair isn't. You can't escape a move that only has one hit. Logically speaking, shuttle loop should only beat out our Bair if its single invincibility frame hits us out, and if its in range. If Sonic's bair is space appropriate, so that you are using the disjoint, I'm quite sure it shouldnt be an issue. If your hitbox hits MK anytime after that single invincibility frame, then you will at worst trade hits.

i think that some of the problem when a sonic plays a metaknight is definately the matchup experience. you have to know what move that can rely on in given sonic situations.

Agreed.

you up throw meta, what is he gonna do? dair, or air dodge. most likely its dair. at early percents its impossible to follow up because its so fast But if you fake it you can punish afterwards, right?

This particular example i don't see it as being very different from any other char, as most good players will DI anyways. Nowadays I followup more at low percents with a regrab rather than a Uair. Run/Walk>Bair works nicely though.

For me, its not that i dont know how to approach metas its just that you cant edgegaurd, a big part of sonics game is gimping and edgegaurding to compensate the lack of kill moves. then you are gonna lose every spot dodgewar, so you can't even stay close long. grab chase, and do it again. Then if a meta feels threatened, then WILL Mash B or UP B, or ledgecamp for a bit, which for the most part sonic cannot deal with outside of shield and run away. ( well tornado can be escaped with DI, the flow of the match is reset/put in his favor in anycase.)

Sonics lose spotdodge wars because of spotdodge habit. Its really about who plays the war more intelligently. They tend to try to Spotdodge>Grab, which doesnt work because MKs second dsmash will come out before you do so. Just fix your timing.

As for edgeguarding, thats very true. At this point I'm still losing 40:60 to my friends meta(although its closer to even when we play actual "sets", where we try to play as we would if we were in a tourney, and like focus and stuff), but I realize most of my deaths come from trying to actively edgeguard MK like I would other characters. Thats one battle Sonic usually loses out on. While Sonic can easily prevent being KOd by shuttle loop when recovering, he is very succeptible to shuttleloop stagespikes or watnot in the endlag of his own moves if he tries and fails to edge guard MK. But it evens out nicely. You can't edgeguard/gimp meta often, but he shouldnt be doing it to you either.

As mentioned previously, ledgecamping is dealt with easily by dropping a spring over MK while he goes for aerials and regrabs of the ledge. None of his aerials stop him from being hit by the spring. I think Sonic's underestimate the value of that little springbomb in this matchup. It messes up Nado, Destroys shuttle loop, and puts a stop to ledgecamping. The only stage I've found this doesn/t work on unless you has pixel precise spacing is PS1, because of the structure of the ledges.

I think sonic's jabs are an underated part of the matchup. jab into runaway, jab into grab, jab combo, jab into tilt... because the first jab connects on frame 3, thats very good. I think metas D smash comes out 1 frame after. if you shiled an aerial from MK then jab as a mindgame to yoru true intenitons... i think there is hope here.

They definitely come in handy in close quarters. You have to be careful though about their horrible range.

I feel like if i have to, i will run from meta, or fake approaches the whole time. this is why DDP and good running tactics are important for sonic, because i need as much control over sonic as possible in order to punish the little lag he has, bait aerial counter attacks, etc. I beliive that if a Sonic is having an issue with Meta, they need to look at how well they run first.

That last sentence is the truest thing since Steak. Actually, I would say that about most matchups.

to me, what makes meta broken is that he can control any situation, even when he should have aa hard time theoretically. And this can be accomplished with little training and effort. I know and have seen good metas, BUT for the majority of metas it is the easy way out.

Part of the reason why I find Sonic to have a decent matchup against Meta though is precisely because he prevents meta from taking control of situations. MK doesn't have control offstage against Sonic, mostly because his shuttle loop is pwned by spring. To me his biggest threat offstage against Sonic is a run off the stage dair, which isnt that big of a deal at all.

1. the MK i play against, if i approach directly, he counters with a full jump d air. which i cant really do anything to. it does put MK in a slightly disadvantaged sitch, but its really nothing MK cant handle.

2. not to mention that MK can up b you out of your combo if its either not a true combo or if you are at all late.

3. a. does 2% and resets the situation, possibly giving him stage control.
b. trying to jab grab gets you down smashed.
c. works and sets up for decent followups.
d. also gets you down smashed.
e. i like that idea but you have to be suuuuuuuper close to do it. also one idea i have is to jab, and than jump over his shield or down smash. in that case you are behind his shield and your options open up a lot.

Lol, I actually agree with KID on most of this. Only thing I will say about facing MK who use full-jump dairs to counter your approach is to run around using DDPs and turnarounds and stuff, until MK has to land, or start Bair spacing. You should try to be aware of how many jumps MK has left(6 jumps total, 5 aerial).

I really need to make a thread on this, just for general advice against meta, regardless of what the matchup may be. I mean, before when i talked about Sonic doing well against meta, much of it was just theory craft as the MKs I played had little to know experience with Sonic. But now that I've faced several more MKs that are actually good and know the matchup, I just my beliefs to be confirmed and even augmented.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you are slightly mistaken, Gshuttle loop completely eats and beats sonics and GaWs back airs, like, if you back air more than once in a row, or if your airials ever get predicted, you can eat a G shuttle loop and it goes through your attack as if its not there. I think you are underestimating the range of that attack.
also, you dont need to get hit with it more than 3 times if it kills you each time. Ive played matches where two of the 3 kills were MK just running up and shuttle looping through my attack.

also, spring doesnt beat planking, all you have to do is either time your invincibilityso that the spring drops past you, or, fall off jump backwards and than jump back to the edge. and in the second case MK can throw out a f air to ensure his return to the ledge.

Trying to grab an MK off the ledge is incredibly risky and means that either your opponent is very bad, or that you are flat out miss cleo and reading his mind.

MK is one of the few characters than can actually gimp sonic. anything you do from under the stage, save for spring invincibility gets beat by down air, and if you try to come from above, MK can actually bait a spring and punish you from there. TBH i dont think you can spring shuttle loop purely on reaction and that theres a decent amount of prediction that goes on there. and MK can bait a spring just by getting into shuttle loop range under you, and either just falling, so that he is constantly in SL range, or jumping, giving you the impression that hes going up and forcing your hand...

also, for the luls, next time i play im going to play MK and jump and make the wind gush sound to see if i could mindgame somebody into doing something stupid, if i ever play any of you sonics, im totally doing that.

not to mention that with all that air control, MK can stay off stage for rediculous amounts of time. he can glide all the way out to the blast zone, fall to the corner and still recover with his 4 jumps + SL/drill. most MKs dont drill to recover enough so they limit their gimp options but in actuality, MKs gimping ability is off the chart just because of his down air, and the fact that he can recover from anywhere.

lastly, we alreeady have a how to beat MK thread, you just have to dig it up and revive it

 

[memphischains]

hey guys, lets argue about stupid arbitrary ****

:D