TK Wolf
Smash Ace
How many frames is it until Luc's AS-charge comes out? And I agree, OOS is important stuff.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~
- Thread starter tedward2000
- Start date
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Ok Rotation 3 is done.
check it out. Im really fond of the Basketball metaphor.
*And if anything needs to be added or changed, PM me or just say so here.
OoS will be rotation 5. We need to finish AS though, Im not sure how much has been covered, so... I'll see what I can do. though you guys have already switched to another discussion.
Carry on, I'll do AS either today, or later.
check it out. Im really fond of the Basketball metaphor.
*And if anything needs to be added or changed, PM me or just say so here.
OoS will be rotation 5. We need to finish AS though, Im not sure how much has been covered, so... I'll see what I can do. though you guys have already switched to another discussion.
Carry on, I'll do AS either today, or later.
Obviously it's only meant to hit at close range, but you'd be surprised how far the horizontal hitbox reaches. I don't use it nearly as much as utilt, jab, or grab, but it's a good mixup that's quick, powerful, and deals a lot more % than other options. Plus if you use it right out of a powershield you'll get a rising dair.
And, believe me, I'm not the only one that uses it. I've seen Azen use it often as well as many of the folks around here.
Jab, utilt, and grab are still imo Luc's best options.
ckm
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2008
- Messages
- 402
I know i'm late for the Dsmash discussion, but I really wanted to add one use that I have had a good deal of success with...
Often when I play people that have experience playing vs. Lucario, using your jab attack will commonly bait a spotdodge. This is because they have become conditioned to expect FP after two jabs, since so many Lucario players abuse this technique. What I have found works well when playing someone that does this is to do jab, jab, then charge a Dsmash and wait for the spot dodge. Once they do, release the dsmash and watch them fly.
Obviously, this doesnt work as well on characters/players that have a tendancy to attack you or grab you after the jabs, but there are other options that work to counter those responses as well.
Often when I play people that have experience playing vs. Lucario, using your jab attack will commonly bait a spotdodge. This is because they have become conditioned to expect FP after two jabs, since so many Lucario players abuse this technique. What I have found works well when playing someone that does this is to do jab, jab, then charge a Dsmash and wait for the spot dodge. Once they do, release the dsmash and watch them fly.
Obviously, this doesnt work as well on characters/players that have a tendancy to attack you or grab you after the jabs, but there are other options that work to counter those responses as well.
h4rdcor3
Smash Journeyman
Got a question about the AS. It seems like I have a huge success rate with charged balls that are on top of people that are landing. It seems they will be air dodging as they come down but as soon as they hit the ground they go flying. Is their a buffer frame before the shield comes up?
I rarely go off stage to fight, because the wario mk, and diddy that i fight are much better off stage than me so they usually end up with a charged ball flying at them.
I rarely go off stage to fight, because the wario mk, and diddy that i fight are much better off stage than me so they usually end up with a charged ball flying at them.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
Yup, I think it's 2 frames of landing lag, and 4 frames if they're fastfalling.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Rotation 3 fixed.
I had F-tilt on the brain, and all my Up-tilts where F-tilts.
So thats been edited, thanks to h4rdcor3 for pointing that out.
-t2
I had F-tilt on the brain, and all my Up-tilts where F-tilts.
So thats been edited, thanks to h4rdcor3 for pointing that out.
-t2
h4rdcor3
Smash Journeyman
Thanks wolf. good to know that it is my timing and not just a scrub opponent when that happens.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Bump...
So yea, I have no ideas what to do atm, I'ma little side-tracked.
But ill think of something.
-t2
So yea, I have no ideas what to do atm, I'ma little side-tracked.
But ill think of something.
-t2
Browny
Smash Hater
utilt
or nair vs big opponents
next topic
or nair vs big opponents
next topic
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Oh yes please. I could actually learn something here.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
I would just like to say the following:
O o
/¯________________________
| IMMA FIRIN' MAH LAZAH!!!
\_¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Shoop da woop.
That is all.
(Lets start OOS! already! :3 )
O o
/¯________________________
| IMMA FIRIN' MAH LAZAH!!!
\_¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Shoop da woop.
That is all.
(Lets start OOS! already! :3 )
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
I millionth that.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
And By Popular vote!!!
OoS!!!
So get on it!!
gogogogo
-t2
OoS!!!
So get on it!!
gogogogo
-t2
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I really don't know much about the OoS game. Either that or it comes naturally. Isn't Utilt supposed to be good? Grabs obviously. Rarely try and FP grab OoS, and I don't know if it's likely to succeed.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
Out of shield, my most common tactic is SH Dair. It's so god**** fast! Grabs are fun too, but they get me punished if my opponent spaces properly.
Agree'd. I started using dair OOS, and it works great. I've yet to be punished for it, and I've jumped over plenty of attacks when they tried (mostly d-smashes though). For those wondering, "How on Earth is that effective?!" My answer: I don't know. It just is...xD
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
How do you get enough horizontal range from dair oos? o.o
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Lucci's OoS game? Jabs and utilt are pretty much the standard, I think. Shield grab if they've spaced poorly, but a good opponent won't often land inside your tiny grab range.
For the other stuff that's been mentioned...
I don't use FP OoS because I don't like how massively unsafe the move is if you whiff. If you're okay with trading that risk for the increased grab range, by all means use it.
SH dair I don't have much experience with, so I can't say too much. But it's not like the horizontal range is great, and it's not a very safe option either.
Now, for nair! I recall hearing multiple times that nair can be a nice OoS option, but that your opponent's height is a limiting factor. So I did some quick SCIENCE! To find which characters a SH nair's backwards hitbox will hit when they're grounded. (The frontal hitbox is low enough to hit any character.)
The following characters can be hit:
:shiek:
The following characters cannot be hit:
(Wolf is technically tall enough to be hit while STANDING, but he has bad posture and normally will not)
The following characters are Fox:
About Fox: it seems that Fox bounces up and down slightly in his standing animation. When I was testing, the backwards nair would hit him when he was at the highest part of it, and miss him when he was at the lowest.
You can take of this what you will. Nair can make an okay substitute for utilt, I think, trading range for the ability to move away from a counterattack if you're blocked. Just be mindful of who you're fighting.
For the other stuff that's been mentioned...
I don't use FP OoS because I don't like how massively unsafe the move is if you whiff. If you're okay with trading that risk for the increased grab range, by all means use it.
SH dair I don't have much experience with, so I can't say too much. But it's not like the horizontal range is great, and it's not a very safe option either.
Now, for nair! I recall hearing multiple times that nair can be a nice OoS option, but that your opponent's height is a limiting factor. So I did some quick SCIENCE! To find which characters a SH nair's backwards hitbox will hit when they're grounded. (The frontal hitbox is low enough to hit any character.)
The following characters can be hit:
:shiek:
The following characters cannot be hit:
(Wolf is technically tall enough to be hit while STANDING, but he has bad posture and normally will not)The following characters are Fox:
About Fox: it seems that Fox bounces up and down slightly in his standing animation. When I was testing, the backwards nair would hit him when he was at the highest part of it, and miss him when he was at the lowest.
You can take of this what you will. Nair can make an okay substitute for utilt, I think, trading range for the ability to move away from a counterattack if you're blocked. Just be mindful of who you're fighting.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Good work Stauffy!
I'm happy that somebody actually tested this.
I'm happy that somebody actually tested this.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
lol @ "the following characters are fox"
You're awesome.
You're awesome.
I would say the best out of shield option is U-tilt, it has great range (both back and in front of Lucario), comes out quick and is a great punisher for any mistake.
Next good option is micro dair as some call it, basically jumping and doing a down air as fast as you can. Previous poster said a lot about it already, so I'm gonna move on.
Jabs out of shield. Great. Racks up damage fast, allows for follow up and is pretty safe if your opponent does a frontal shield attack. You can even turn around and do it if you're standing with your back to the opponent, but it's kinda hard to do it really fast.
Short hop Nair, hasn't been mentioned I think. It isn't exactly the best, but it can hit if timed correctly (I think tall characters are easier) and you can follow up at low percents, or kill at higher percents.
Lastly shieldgrabs are always nice, try not to forget pummel, it resets a couple of stale moves because it's so fast. Best throws are probably forward and back throw, and uthrow is good for low percents. Don't ever really use dthrow though, doesn't really gives any opportunity of follow ups.
Something very important I wanted to mention is you don't always have to attack or do something agressive. A well timed roll can really save you a lot of percents. If you have the chance to put yourself in a way better position, do it! For example you're stuck at the edge, and your opponent puts the pressure on, but too agressive. You shield his attack, and roll away from the edge. Positions are now turned around, and you're the one who can apply pressure.
Will post more if I can think of it.
Next good option is micro dair as some call it, basically jumping and doing a down air as fast as you can. Previous poster said a lot about it already, so I'm gonna move on.
Jabs out of shield. Great. Racks up damage fast, allows for follow up and is pretty safe if your opponent does a frontal shield attack. You can even turn around and do it if you're standing with your back to the opponent, but it's kinda hard to do it really fast.
Short hop Nair, hasn't been mentioned I think. It isn't exactly the best, but it can hit if timed correctly (I think tall characters are easier) and you can follow up at low percents, or kill at higher percents.
Lastly shieldgrabs are always nice, try not to forget pummel, it resets a couple of stale moves because it's so fast. Best throws are probably forward and back throw, and uthrow is good for low percents. Don't ever really use dthrow though, doesn't really gives any opportunity of follow ups.
Something very important I wanted to mention is you don't always have to attack or do something agressive. A well timed roll can really save you a lot of percents. If you have the chance to put yourself in a way better position, do it! For example you're stuck at the edge, and your opponent puts the pressure on, but too agressive. You shield his attack, and roll away from the edge. Positions are now turned around, and you're the one who can apply pressure.
Will post more if I can think of it.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Well there was a good amount of info this time, Woo hoo!
Then it dies...
X(
So... I'll think of something tomorrow.
-t2
Then it dies...
X(
So... I'll think of something tomorrow.
-t2
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I think your next one should be damage racking moves and kill moves. What percents certain moves will kill reliably and what moves are good for racking up some serious damage.
Drizzt6195
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2008
- Messages
- 117
For a good approach I just thought maybe doopwalking Utilt?
I dont know if its good or not havent tested it
I dont know if its good or not havent tested it
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Lucci's doop walk sucks and utilt doesn't have enough range and is unsafe on block. Don't do it. >>
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I agree with what this nub said :D
supergamer001
Smash Ace
Dtilt oos it's fast good for spacing and when I use it it's fresh and has reliable kill power.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
U-tilt, D-tilt, Nair, Dair, Grab, Jab. (FP grab if you're gutsy)
U-tilt, Nair, Dair, Grab, and Jab have either been explained or are obvious so that leaves D-tilt.
D-tilt comes out faster in the front than U-tilt (or at least seems like it) and is pretty easy to space. It has about as much frontal range as u-tilt and the angle it sends the opponent at is good for followups/escaping. The thing's rarely used, so you'll want to use it to keep your U-tilt fresh. So basically...
Grab if they're close, U-tilt if they're behind, D-tilt if they're in front, jab/nair/dair to mix it up.
U-tilt, Nair, Dair, Grab, and Jab have either been explained or are obvious so that leaves D-tilt.
D-tilt comes out faster in the front than U-tilt (or at least seems like it) and is pretty easy to space. It has about as much frontal range as u-tilt and the angle it sends the opponent at is good for followups/escaping. The thing's rarely used, so you'll want to use it to keep your U-tilt fresh. So basically...
Grab if they're close, U-tilt if they're behind, D-tilt if they're in front, jab/nair/dair to mix it up.
D-Tilt is our fastest tilt, and U-Tilt first hitbox is behind Lucario, so yeah D-Tilt is definately faster. Dunno about range though. I barely use D-Tilt to be honest, maybe after a F-Smash when I see them running at me, but if I'm in that situation (didnt space well
) I'd rather use jab. This rotation's pretty much over I think. Time to start a new one?
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
D-tilt definitely has better range than jab.
And yes, my summary has pretty much ended this rotation, I think we should talk about spacing or DI next. They happen to be the two things I'm working on right now.
And yes, my summary has pretty much ended this rotation, I think we should talk about spacing or DI next. They happen to be the two things I'm working on right now.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
I find DI and Kill moves fairly self-reliable. You DI (or SDI) opposite the direction your travelling. If your sent up, use Dair, if your sent at a slant, use Fair to gain momentum again.
I think the killing %s for Fsmash, Dsmash, and Aura Sphere have been posted. I use FThrow as a kill move btw =P
I think the killing %s for Fsmash, Dsmash, and Aura Sphere have been posted. I use FThrow as a kill move btw =P
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Yup Fthrow can work pretty well. With regards to DI, what do you do with the c-stick if you get caught in.... pika's dsmash for example?
supergamer001
Smash Ace
You want to DI up in pikas Dsmash.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
well I don't think DI as a whole is something that needs to be covered in this thread, many others have covered the topic just fine.
However.
That new Move Tier list Thread popped up, and this thread can take some of its light. And following with what SAM suggested. We can go into Reliability.
This will be a bit lengthy in discussion considering the amount of variables that effect a moves Reliability. So that shall be next.
I'll update when I am awake.
And thus Begin Rotation 6, Reliability.
-t2
However.
That new Move Tier list Thread popped up, and this thread can take some of its light. And following with what SAM suggested. We can go into Reliability.
This will be a bit lengthy in discussion considering the amount of variables that effect a moves Reliability. So that shall be next.
I'll update when I am awake.
And thus Begin Rotation 6, Reliability.
-t2
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
So we're gonna start from the top of that list and go down? That seems good.
We should base it a few categories. I'll name some to start us off.
Kill power (How well does it kill?)
Combo friendliness (How does it do in combos? Starter, finisher, both, neither?)
Safety (Range/Speed. Will it keep you out of your opponents spacing? Is it quick enough to hit and stay safe?)
Aura change/Staleness (How it's affected by aura/stale moves, does it help kill power, or just diminish comboability and vice versa?)
That's just a quick skeleton for what I think the next rotation should look like.
We should base it a few categories. I'll name some to start us off.
Kill power (How well does it kill?)
Combo friendliness (How does it do in combos? Starter, finisher, both, neither?)
Safety (Range/Speed. Will it keep you out of your opponents spacing? Is it quick enough to hit and stay safe?)
Aura change/Staleness (How it's affected by aura/stale moves, does it help kill power, or just diminish comboability and vice versa?)
That's just a quick skeleton for what I think the next rotation should look like.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
What does brickwalls and traps mean? Do you mean like WoP/fair strings and mindgames?
Anyway, if we're gonna do reliability, we should assign everyone like 3 moves to study and we can share results later. Each person can kinda just test KO potential and how the move compares in range to other character's fighting zone. Then we can all come up with a shared idea of how well it can combo and how it's affected by stale moves and such.
Anyway, if we're gonna do reliability, we should assign everyone like 3 moves to study and we can share results later. Each person can kinda just test KO potential and how the move compares in range to other character's fighting zone. Then we can all come up with a shared idea of how well it can combo and how it's affected by stale moves and such.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
Ugh, this is going nowhere. I guess I have to start. I call Fair!
KO power: Sucks, you should never get a KO with this unless you doing fair chains, even then, you'll probably end it with some stronger aerial. In the damage department, it starts with a measly 3. This is not gonna be your big damage move.
Score: 3, but just cause of fair chains.
Comboability: This is where the fair shines. It strings will into all of Lucario's aerials (including itself) and even "true-combos" with fair and nair at the right percentages. Fair has tons of options after it depending on your opponents (and to some extent your own) percentage. To follow up your fair, just check out where the opponent is. If they're below you, dair, above, uair, on, nair. You get the idea. If they're in front of you and too fair to fair or nair, you can even string it into an AS, just make sure it's already significantly charged. Makes for a pretty cool finisher especially offstage. Speaking of offstage, fair works wonders there. If you fair them off the stage and you think you can chain them, keep fairing with the c-stick while controlling your DI with the control stick you can use your midair jump, just make sure you have enough vertical room to DI back to the stage in time. So basically, fair>any aerial is great.
Score: 10! You know why
Safety: Okay, fair is pretty good here, just not stellar. Thanks to Lucario's high shorthop, fair is fairly (bad pun intended) safe on block against the not so tall characters. However, the range of fair is pretty bad, meaning you have to get close before you shorthop, making you a victim to grabs before you even get in the air. Retreating fairs are an option, but even they're not completely safe on block just because you have to get so darn close just to land it. You have speed on your advantage. You can get out this thing before most characters can counter it (excluding those speedster fairers like MK and Marth) and if they're on the ground, depending on your DI, you can usually influence your DI enough to stay in the safe zone. Really, it's kind of a tough call. Oh and it has pretty significant landing lag.
Safety: 7 not perfect but it's pretty darn good the ability to follow up with almost anything really helps this score. Speed is also a factor, but it didn't get that 10 just cause of its iffy range.
Aura/stale: Well, this guy won't be doing any killing, so it's better off stale (it's not like it does much damage anyway) since you're gonna have to use it to approach, it's gonna be stale pretty often, that's good for combos, and also good because you're clearing your queue. Aura actually gives this guy a few problems. It stops being as good in combos and pushes them forward more, thus limiting your options. Still, fair does pretty well under most conditions and isn't too heavily affected by aura and staleness. They won't be a factor.
Score: 8 doesn't really change matter, but increased knockback really isn't that great for it (it hits at a pretty high angle) but when your opponent is at that high a %, you should just finish em off already.
Conclusion: This move is great at its job, it just can't do much else otherwise. Fair is a great combo move, it's your only good approach, can actually kill people early through gimps, and does moderately well in safety. It will never kill in the normal way, but that's not what it's for anyway. You can't have this great a combo move AND a great kill move in one though, so don't be picky.
Verdict: Fair is good. I mean... reliable. I'd give it a 9 overall.
Sorry for what I think will be a double post and please tell me if you think I made any mistakes in my judgment of Lucario's fair, I don't want to be giving out false information. (Especially the safety part)
Edit: After writing that whole thing, I realized that reliability is really hard to talk about and that what I wrote is mostly off-topic, it was mostly just an analysis of fair. So, I'm gonna just write a quick summary of his reliability (I'm not gonna delete the old thing just because frankly, I'm proud of myself)
Fair: It comes out fast, so you shouldn't have a problem getting it off at any time. The only thing you can rely on it for though, is damage racking. Fair-strings aren't completely reliable and can be thwarted given the opposing player has experience and keeps their cool. It's one of those "Get out of my face" moves at higher percentages as it's quick, and knocks them back far enough to get your ground back. Much like f-tilt.
Ehh... this is harder than I thought >_>
KO power: Sucks, you should never get a KO with this unless you doing fair chains, even then, you'll probably end it with some stronger aerial. In the damage department, it starts with a measly 3. This is not gonna be your big damage move.
Score: 3, but just cause of fair chains.
Comboability: This is where the fair shines. It strings will into all of Lucario's aerials (including itself) and even "true-combos" with fair and nair at the right percentages. Fair has tons of options after it depending on your opponents (and to some extent your own) percentage. To follow up your fair, just check out where the opponent is. If they're below you, dair, above, uair, on, nair. You get the idea. If they're in front of you and too fair to fair or nair, you can even string it into an AS, just make sure it's already significantly charged. Makes for a pretty cool finisher especially offstage. Speaking of offstage, fair works wonders there. If you fair them off the stage and you think you can chain them, keep fairing with the c-stick while controlling your DI with the control stick you can use your midair jump, just make sure you have enough vertical room to DI back to the stage in time. So basically, fair>any aerial is great.
Score: 10! You know why
Safety: Okay, fair is pretty good here, just not stellar. Thanks to Lucario's high shorthop, fair is fairly (bad pun intended) safe on block against the not so tall characters. However, the range of fair is pretty bad, meaning you have to get close before you shorthop, making you a victim to grabs before you even get in the air. Retreating fairs are an option, but even they're not completely safe on block just because you have to get so darn close just to land it. You have speed on your advantage. You can get out this thing before most characters can counter it (excluding those speedster fairers like MK and Marth) and if they're on the ground, depending on your DI, you can usually influence your DI enough to stay in the safe zone. Really, it's kind of a tough call. Oh and it has pretty significant landing lag.
Safety: 7 not perfect but it's pretty darn good the ability to follow up with almost anything really helps this score. Speed is also a factor, but it didn't get that 10 just cause of its iffy range.
Aura/stale: Well, this guy won't be doing any killing, so it's better off stale (it's not like it does much damage anyway) since you're gonna have to use it to approach, it's gonna be stale pretty often, that's good for combos, and also good because you're clearing your queue. Aura actually gives this guy a few problems. It stops being as good in combos and pushes them forward more, thus limiting your options. Still, fair does pretty well under most conditions and isn't too heavily affected by aura and staleness. They won't be a factor.
Score: 8 doesn't really change matter, but increased knockback really isn't that great for it (it hits at a pretty high angle) but when your opponent is at that high a %, you should just finish em off already.
Conclusion: This move is great at its job, it just can't do much else otherwise. Fair is a great combo move, it's your only good approach, can actually kill people early through gimps, and does moderately well in safety. It will never kill in the normal way, but that's not what it's for anyway. You can't have this great a combo move AND a great kill move in one though, so don't be picky.
Verdict: Fair is good. I mean... reliable. I'd give it a 9 overall.
Sorry for what I think will be a double post and please tell me if you think I made any mistakes in my judgment of Lucario's fair, I don't want to be giving out false information. (Especially the safety part)
Edit: After writing that whole thing, I realized that reliability is really hard to talk about and that what I wrote is mostly off-topic, it was mostly just an analysis of fair. So, I'm gonna just write a quick summary of his reliability (I'm not gonna delete the old thing just because frankly, I'm proud of myself)
Fair: It comes out fast, so you shouldn't have a problem getting it off at any time. The only thing you can rely on it for though, is damage racking. Fair-strings aren't completely reliable and can be thwarted given the opposing player has experience and keeps their cool. It's one of those "Get out of my face" moves at higher percentages as it's quick, and knocks them back far enough to get your ground back. Much like f-tilt.
Ehh... this is harder than I thought >_>