Well, we learn from the past and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future. It doesn't mean that we might be right this time when we were wrong before, though. Life is pretty unpredictable. :o
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
So Pit's arrows cannot be reliably powershielded because they can be tweaked to arrive a few frames later thus narrowly avoiding the powershield duration of 3 frames? So Pit's arrows are different from the rest of the projectiles because their movement can be changed during flight thus altering the moment of impact and making powershielding more difficult than normal?Nice to know people were paying attention.
The fact that you can juke them to avoid the 3 frame window for powershielding, essentially making it a mindgame, where if you shield the entire window, you get a net shield loss (eventually resulting in getting shield broken or shield stabbed), and if you just do if when you think the opponent will hit your shield, you have 3 possibilities, 1: You powershield, 2: You shield it normally, 3: You get hit.
While option 2 might result in a less then net shield loss, you're still gonna get hit relatively often. Granted, it depends on how much time is left, but if you're only up by percents you're probably stuck.
Sounds like complete BS to me, Adumby. D:So Pit's arrows cannot be reliably powershielded because they can be tweaked to arrive a few frames later thus narrowly avoiding the powershield duration of 3 frames? So Pit's arrows are different from the rest of the projectiles because their movement can be changed during flight thus altering the moment of impact and making powershielding more difficult than normal?
What?Kinzer, if you were referring to me, let me have you know, the "CPU" was controlled by a human.
You were presuming I was trying to say that Samus was worth a "praise", even after I continuously told you I was not.Actually, I'm not presuming anything about what you're saying. I'm taking everything you say as literal as possible, and thinking of examples of what you're saying. Then I'm thinking of what I would do if I was Samus or an opponent vs a Samus, and say what I'm sure will happen.
You're literally making no sense. You cannot get hit by an out of shield option out of anywhere. That's basically what you're trying to tell me, and this is why I presume you know little to nothing.You're the one presuming I know nothing, and failing to understand what I'm trying to say. Whenever I say things like...
... You should figure out that I'm not saying Samus WILL attack the shield, I'm saying that even if Samus doesn't attack a shield with anything while landing within range of a shieldcamping opponent, she will get hit by an OoS option.
Samus does not have to input a move upon landing, just as how any other character doesn't have to. A Marth won't ALWAYS FAir you when he's about to touch the ground, cause the Marth player will KNOW that the opponent can easily guess a FAir and then shield/avoid it. So rather, he's not going to input a move at all and try to reset his own spacing.If Samus will take 20 frames to touch the floor, and in 15 frames I'm gonna start a 6-frame attack (meaning that I'll catch her within 1 frame of landing, in her landing lag where she's completely vulnerable), and until that point all I do is shield, then Samus has no options but to take the hit because no option she has helps her avoid the hit. Her downB would be a menace if the bomb was like Melee's, but that's not the case here. At frame 21 of this scenario, whether or not she hits my shield, she's eating an attack, so shielded approaches shut her down.
A shield won't help her opponent much more than it'll help her. Why? Because she's not forced to attack the shield. If all the opponent does is rely on his/her shield, it won't benefit them in any way. The only time it will benefit them is when the Samus player hits their shield and they're close enough for an out of shield option. ANY character will get punished when they're close enough for an OoS option, a shield doesn't shut down Samus alone.And if she can't do much to shielded approaches due to her horrible grab (I use ZSS who is better in practically every way, and she still has problems with shield-happy opponents), then she really can't punish shields very well. Shields restore over time, and with her slow-paced projectiles, slow-paced vertical aerial movement, and ground game that is lacking in good options, she really truly is too predictable. I can't see an opponent losing the lead ever if Samus spends a whole match camping the opponent out after he has an advantage. She's literally going to have to approach eventually and force the opponent to do something, then punish it... But if all the opponent is doing is defensive maneuvers (like shielding and powershielding), Samus really can do nothing but lose... Which we have seen in the metagame as of recently, Samus being 5th place in tourney results as of late.
Ganon is 6th from last on the "Character's Ranking List", is he suddenly the 6th worst character of Brawl? Tournament placing, while a huge part of tier list placement, aren't necessarily the most accurate source.So, if Samus really isn't as bad as she is in the tier list, and her tourney results are exactly the same position as her tier list ranking... What, besides theoretical situations, can you use to back up your opinions? I use personal experience and tourney data to back mine up.
You just pick up little gimmicks that can be taken advantage of, which is why I say you "presume" way too much.Oh, and of course I'm gonna be "presuming when I'm voicing my opinions"... Just like what you're doing, I truly believe what I'm saying, and am questioning your opinion. You're not giving me anything back but condescending answers, leaving me in the dark to start guessing what it is that you're trying to tell me. If you want me to stop, then please, show me some proof of what you say to be true (and not just one single video or something as lacking as that), like Samus getting past overly defensive opponets who have an advantage due to her character traits. My being presumptuous with my own opinions is only because I truly believe what I'm saying, due to it helping me in my own scenarios, as well as from what I've gathered from others' experiences through videos or whatever other means I've attained.
People can just roll towards Samus on reaction. That takes care of both the missile and the grab.Missile > Run up and grab is one.
Explain to me how a Ganon does not have to approach a Samus, and maybe then I'll believe you.You mean using varying speed projectiles? That's where holding the shield button comes in.
That takes time to set up, and the time required is more then the time required to recharge your shield for it, so still on the losing end.
And there's, I dunno, jumping, owing to the linearity of Samus' projectiles except for homing missle (which is still slow).
Honestly, powershielding isn't really all there is to it, the real point of this is that a player SHOULD be able to beat every option Samus has to force approach on reaction, which means that who approaches who is not guaranteed to be Samus' opponent, it's whoever feels the need to approach. Projectiles zone, they trap, but they do not force approaches (unless you're Pit).
Brawl players just need to improve.
Then that forces the opponent to not rely on their shield. Meaning, instead of approaching closer or punishing Samus out of shield, they RESET the spacing.People can just roll towards Samus on reaction. That takes care of both the missile and the grab.
Ah, how people don't want to admit they're wrong.To (mostly) everything else... *facepalm* I'm tired of repeating myself and rewording what I'm trying to say. Whatever.
Is that why you're saying we're wrong? Because Ganon can't do what everyone else can?Explain to me how Ganon does not have to approach Samus, and maybe then I'll believe you.
Shielding forced Samus to approach. Samus just approached and attempted a grab. Whatever happens afterwards doesn't matter, shielding made Samus fall into a VERY unfavorable position.Then that forces the opponent to not rely on their shield. Meaning, instead of approaching closer or punishing Samus out of shield, they RESET the spacing.
Ah, how people don't want to admit a loss.
No. I was just using Ganon as an example.Is that why you're saying we're wrong? Because Ganon can't do what everyone else can?
At the highest levels of play, a Samus wouldn't use this option to "grab" her opponents, rather use it to limit her opponents. They'll still drop their shield, or maybe they won't.Shielding forced Samus to approach. Samus just approached and attempted a grab. Whatever happens afterwards doesn't matter, shielding made Samus fall into a VERY unfavorable position.
You're proving my point more.Call it wehatever you want, as long as it makes you feel better about yourself. What reasons might I have to doubt your methods of self-gratification?
Then why even list the example? If at highest levels of play it doesn't work, then we agree that your example is nothing more than a gimmick. And at the highest levels of play, when both characters know the MU, gimmicks stop being as reliable as they normally would be (like Kirby's inhale, kirbicides, copy abilities, ninja spikes...)At the highest levels of play, a Samus wouldn't use this option to "grab" her opponents, rather use it to limit her opponents. They'll still drop their shield, or maybe they won't.
Do you want me to keep answering your posts? Or do you want me to stop answering your posts? You decide.You're proving my point more.
I posted it because he doesn't get that I said i'd stop replying because I'm getting tired of repeating the same things over and over, but worded differently. He took it as me losing to him and he being right (which is not the case), so I facepalmed and said that it's not true, but if that makes him feel better then he can say whatever he wants. He then took it as yet another sign that I can't defend my arguments, which really truly made me want to facepalm because yet again, he interpreted my posts in whatever way made him seem like he had the edge over me in the argument, which isn't so.Kewk just cause you're a mod doesn't mean you can post a Facepalm picture and NOT come off as a d*** and/or Inui-like.
The opponent is restricted to thinking what he should or shouldn't do out of shield the moment a missile hits their shield. They can either get out of the way, or continue power-shielding (since Samus won't ever use a missile at punishable range). Technically, this little "gimmick" deals with shields.Then why even list the example? If at highest levels of play it doesn't work, then we agree that your example is nothing more than a gimmick. And at the highest levels of play, when both characters know the MU, gimmicks stop being as reliable as they normally would be (like Kirby's inhale, kirbicides, copy abilities, ninja spikes...)
If you can, then go ahead. If you can't, then don't try to act like you could.Do you want me to keep answering your posts? Or do you want me to stop answering your posts? You decide.
You're defending Samus' offensive game, when it is universally agreed upon as garbage. I'm telling you it is garbage and saying it won't amount to anything, and you keep bouncing off my arguments as if you had something to say that would destroy every argument ever on the topic. The truth is that you're binded to your opinion, as am I to mine. I'm trying to show you through words why I think you're wrong, and you question my knowledge by saying "I know next to nothing".You were presuming I was trying to say that Samus was worth a "praise", even after I continuously told you I was not.
Choose MK, hold your shield, and then upB. That's an OoS upB. If I'm shielding expecting a hit from an opponent because I'm in their maximum range and they're within my upB OoS range, it doesn't matter if they hit my shield or not; once I know they're vulnerable and in my attack's range, I can attack from out of my shield and it will be an out-of-shield upB.You're literally making no sense. You cannot get hit by an out of shield option out of anywhere. That's basically what you're trying to tell me, and this is why I presume you know little to nothing.
If the Marth is forced to land within OoS moves' range, he has no option but to get hit by the OoS option (unless he times his upB to hit his opponent when the shield drops and he's starting up his attack, which is usually the case with Marth, who actually has an aerial option against non-invincible OoS options). If Samus is going to land near any character's shield, she can't do anything but get hit by the OoS option. Whatever she does (or doesn't do), she's gonna get punished for it.Samus does not have to input a move upon landing, just as how any other character doesn't have to. A Marth won't ALWAYS FAir you when he's about to touch the ground, cause the Marth player will KNOW that the opponent can easily guess a FAir and then shield/avoid it. So rather, he's not going to input a move at all and try to reset his own spacing.
An opponent can attack Samus OoS even if Samus doesn't hit their shields. All it takes is for them to have their shield up and make Samus NOT want to attack their shields, then the execution of their OoS option. If Samus doesn't his MK's shield, MK's still gonna upB Samus whenever she's vulnerable, and her only way out is by guessing when the MK's gonna upB and airdodging through that.A shield won't help her opponent much more than it'll help her. Why? Because she's not forced to attack the shield. If all the opponent does is rely on his/her shield, it won't benefit them in any way. The only time it will benefit them is when the Samus player hits their shield and they're close enough for an out of shield option. ANY character will get punished when they're close enough for an OoS option, a shield doesn't shut down Samus alone.
How can she retreat away, if she's going to land near an opponent's shield in my scenario that I've been repeating for the last couple of posts? She has no jumps, only her upB and downB to alter her landing trajectory, and they both won't stop her from being punished.Samus has the options of retreating AWAY from shield-happy opponents. She also has a couple of ways to deal with shields. Missile > Run up and grab is one.
My point was that there's a reason Samus isn't doing better in her tourney results, even though your claims of Samus being able to counter excessive defensive play with projectile spam sounds convincing. Her tourney results reflect her position in the tier list: down below, with the worst characters of the game.Ganon is 6th from last on the "Character's Ranking List", is he suddenly the 6th worst character of Brawl? Tournament placing, while a huge part of tier list placement, aren't necessarily the most accurate source.
A part of being a good player is improving your player-base skills. What I can apply with Kirby, ZSS, Ike, Jigglypuff, Peach, Snake, MK, Falco, (etc...), I can also apply to Samus. I am very good at being patient and watching my opponent's reactions to my actions, along with other personal traits, which has granted me recognition around PR as one of the best players even though I don't use top tier characters. As Samus, I watch what my opponents do while setting up a defensive parameter between me and my opponent. My opponents can either evade it all, shield it and not approach, or shield it and approach. At the top levels of play, room for mistake is smaller than at other levels of play, meaning that I have to be playing perfectly if I want to make sure I come out on top.You just pick up little gimmicks that can be taken advantage of, which is why I say you "presume" way too much.
I don't know how much times you must have ignored this but, I'll say it again; I am not trying to make Samus a better character than she is.You're defending Samus' offensive game, when it is universally agreed upon as garbage. I'm telling you it is garbage and saying it won't amount to anything, and you keep bouncing off my arguments as if you had something to say that would destroy every argument ever on the topic. The truth is that you're binded to your opinion, as am I to mine. I'm trying to show you through words why I think you're wrong, and you question my knowledge by saying "I know next to nothing".
You're sliding from one of your points to another.Choose MK, hold your shield, and then upB. That's an OoS upB. If I'm shielding expecting a hit from an opponent because I'm in their maximum range and they're within my upB OoS range, it doesn't matter if they hit my shield or not; once I know they're vulnerable and in my attack's range, I can attack from out of my shield and it will be an out-of-shield upB.
But to your current point, why would Samus land right in front of a shielding MK/any other character? In your mind you're picturing a very stupid Samus player, while we're discussing things at the highest levels of play here. Samus wouldn't land in front of shields to begin with.You should figure out that I'm not saying Samus WILL attack the shield, I'm saying that even if Samus doesn't attack a shield with anything while landing within range of a shieldcamping opponent, she will get hit by an OoS option.
You're wrong. Spotdodge/shield comes out faster than about every other option in this game. Even if you're within OoS punishment, it's possible to avoid the punishment UNLESS your move makes contact with the shield.If the Marth is forced to land within OoS moves' range, he has no option but to get hit by the OoS option (unless he times his upB to hit his opponent when the shield drops and he's starting up his attack, which is usually the case with Marth, who actually has an aerial option against non-invincible OoS options). If Samus is going to land near any character's shield, she can't do anything but get hit by the OoS option. Whatever she does (or doesn't do), she's gonna get punished for it.
And this is all assuming we approached her by shielding. Once you're near an aerial Samus with a shield due to resetting her spacing (something that should go without saying when discussing approaches), her only way out is through gimmicks by expecting her opponent to drop the shield earlier/later than they should, and getting punished for it.
Do you even know what OoS is? You can't OoS out of anywhere, and you definitely can't attack OoS when nothing is in contact.An opponent can attack Samus OoS even if Samus doesn't hit their shields. All it takes is for them to have their shield up and make Samus NOT want to attack their shields, then the execution of their OoS option. If Samus doesn't his MK's shield, MK's still gonna upB Samus whenever she's vulnerable, and her only way out is by guessing when the MK's gonna upB and airdodging through that.
Can you give me some examples of how else Samus can avoid these scenarios, once she finds herself in one of them (about to land near an opponent's shield and them having a good OoS option to punish her for landing near them, while they expect Samus to hit their shields)?
How is anyone going to retreat away in this scenario you keep bringing out? While we're at it, how is Snake going to not get hit when he's in lag? How is Ganon not going to get punished for using a random Warlock punch? You bringing up this scenario where Samus is put in a bad postion, really has me clueless, since she's obviously going to get punished/whatever.How can she retreat away, if she's going to land near an opponent's shield in my scenario that I've been repeating for the last couple of posts? She has no jumps, only her upB and downB to alter her landing trajectory, and they both won't stop her from being punished.
And if she retreats AWAY from shield-happy opponents while they have the advantage, she's only running out the clock, which is detrimental to her in the end. She's going to lose unless she regains the lead, and camping the opponent out with slow-moving projectiles isn't helping her at all. She's going to be forced to commit to an approach due to the opponents powershielding her slow-moving, telegraphed projectiles. Approaching is what the shielding opponent wants Samus to do. Once she commits to whatever approach option she decided on undertaking (like homing missile+grab), the opponent can react accordingly and widen the gap between both players, both in distance and % lead/stock lead.
Once again, I'm not trying to make Samus a better character than she is, her tournament results are actually quite accurate, it's the other characters which are a bit mixed up.My point was that there's a reason Samus isn't doing better in her tourney results, even though your claims of Samus being able to counter excessive defensive play with projectile spam sounds convincing. Her tourney results reflect her position in the tier list: down below, with the worst characters of the game.
I don't see how picking up gimmicks and pointing them out relates to this in any way. No top tiers and PR? Well, I use Ganon and I'm in my PR.A part of being a good player is improving your player-base skills. What I can apply with Kirby, ZSS, Ike, Jigglypuff, Peach, Snake, MK, Falco, (etc...), I can also apply to Samus. I am very good at being patient and watching my opponent's reactions to my actions, along with other personal traits, which has granted me recognition around PR as one of the best players even though I don't use top tier characters. As Samus, I watch what my opponents do while setting up a defensive parameter between me and my opponent. My opponents can either evade it all, shield it and not approach, or shield it and approach. At the top levels of play, room for mistake is smaller than at other levels of play, meaning that I have to be playing perfectly if I want to make sure I come out on top.
The bad thing about Samus, is that her tool set doesn't allow for some situations. Samus will get attacked and lose her advantage, and if the opponent knows how to play against Samus (AKA knows the MU), then Samus should have huuuge problems coming out on top (unless her MU discussion says otherwise, like against Ganon who is susceptible to all types of camping and can't counter ledge play as well as most other characters).
Both things convey the same exact message... Which is that if Samus doesn't attack my shield, I'm going to trap her anyway while she lands, due to knowing she has no attack fast or disjointed enough to beat my offensive maneuver at mid/close range (besides zair, which is where this whole argument derived from).You're sliding from one of your points to another.
This is what you had said before:
Samus lands in front of the shielding opponent because the opponent approached while shielding, when Samus already jumped beforehand. I'm not thinking of a stupid Samus player, I'm thinking of a smart opponent. And Samus can be forced to land right next to shields given the right circumstances, which are easy to replicate during a match given a character who can reliably shield while approaching.But to your current point, why would Samus land right in front of a shielding MK/any other character? In your mind you're picturing a very stupid Samus player, while we're discussing things at the highest levels of play here. Samus wouldn't land in front of shields to begin with.
That's where frame-trapping comes into play. If Samus doesn't hit my shield, then I'll get her while she lands, during her landing lag. There are only a handful of attacks in the game that completely cancel out landing lag (Falco's silent lasers, Snake's grenade landing, MK's tornado from the right height, ZSS's dair from the right height...), and Samus' only attack that has NO landing lag is her zair. which if she uses will set her up for a parry from an OoS option. It's possible to avoid this with some certain maneuvers, like say... Footstooling the opponent's shield so Samus can jump again and making the opponent miss his OoS option.You're wrong. Spotdodge/shield comes out faster than about every other option in this game. Even if you're within OoS punishment, it's possible to avoid the punishment UNLESS your move makes contact with the shield.
You're thinking of the common applications of OoS options. An OoS option is, as the name states, an out-of-shield option. If you shield and do something out of shield, then you just did something OoS (out-of-shield).Do you even know what OoS is? You can't OoS out of anywhere, and you definitely can't attack OoS when nothing is in contact.
Exactly. She avoids the OoS option when the opponent is approaching in his shield, and due to her trying to avoid it, she gets punished for it. Same goes for trying to counter the shield with any option.Samus can definitely avoid a lot, if not most, moves OoS by not making contact with the shield in the first place. She's normally suppose to be punished when she's busy AVOIDING moves in general.
This scenario happens all the time, and is the reason why Samus is so low in tourney results. She was doing her thing on-stage, and the opponent approached with the shield and reset the spacing she created by spamming projectiles and zairing at mid-range. Sanek punished because of his lag is how the MU should be played. Ganon punished because of a random Warlock Punch is just stupid. :|How is anyone going to retreat away in this scenario you keep bringing out? While we're at it, how is Snake going to not get hit when he's in lag? How is Ganon not going to get punished for using a random Warlock punch? You bringing up this scenario where Samus is put in a bad postion, really has me clueless, since she's obviously going to get punished/whatever.
You mean Dair strings.Her grab alone is horrible, but she's a character that forces you to shield and gives you a reason not to spotdodge with projectile traps and the threat of D-air combos. She can get grabs just fine, and for stuff that should be shieldgrabbed, she also has Up-B out of shield.
Which is why I haven't questioned your knowledge with condescending remarks. You're in your state's PR for a reason, as am I in mine.I don't see how picking up gimmicks and pointing them out relates to this in any way. No top tiers and PR? Well, I use Ganon and I'm in my PR.
I just decided to hold back on the compliments to very bad characters. They're near the lower end of the tierlist for a reason, and thinking to myself "hey, this character isn't as bad as I thought they were" doesn't take from the fact that they're the worst characters of the game for a reason. If they had more redeeming qualities, they'd be a spot higher in the list, at least.Samus is a very bad character, Kewkky, I haven't denied she isn't. I know how horrible her moveset is, and how easy it could be to take advantage of her. But she's definitely not as bad and as easily exploitable as you're making her out to be.
Not "more difficult", "impossible to do reliably".So Pit's arrows cannot be reliably powershielded because they can be tweaked to arrive a few frames later thus narrowly avoiding the powershield duration of 3 frames? So Pit's arrows are different from the rest of the projectiles because their movement can be changed during flight thus altering the moment of impact and making powershielding more difficult than normal?
So... you're saying that you can reliably powershield something that will hit you within the space of around 18 frame, with you opponent completely controlling which frame it will actually hit, and only if it hits during 3 of those frames will it be a powershield?Sounds like complete BS to me.
Pit loops arrow and fires another one. Now you've got the same game with an additional arrow in play so he can punish your spotdodge.You know at a distance if you don't want to powershield the arrows, you can also
4. Spot-dodge the arrows. In which case, if your proficient you don't have to approach pit.
What?lets say the word GO appears on the screen and before it goes away samus gets a quick zair on you that you cant react to. shes ahead 4/7%, so she wins?
Wait... so did you miss the part where I was commenting how Brawl players sucks in regards to technical ability? You know, my other main argument.Show me a match that showcases a match "at the top of the metagame" that shows a samus getting camped out by a character that doesnt have a better projectile.
Name dropping.
1. Stop dic kriding
99.9% sure somebody already has it to the third standard deviation if not more, it's just... well it's Samus.2. let me know when somebody reaches that level, Im sure its not going to happen anytime soon.
im ganon on japes, and im trying to avoid falco so he doesnt kill me, he has to approach and I can increase the lead I already have.
If I go to the side, falco can shoot lasers and if he decides to approach me, the only way he can do it is by taking to the air, which is massively more managable to deal with.
If I stay in the middle platform, I run the risk of being destroyed by falcos plethora of amazing approach options, but in return I can attack him back.
When I decided to stay on the side platform, despite the fact that he was a stock down he still refused to approach me. and because of that I had to go back to the middle of the stage because even though lasers cant kill you Id rather be in a more dangerous position with the ability to hit back.
I dont know whether this proves your point or not, but powershielding lasers on the sides, is much easier to me than ducking in the middle having to deal with falcos entire moveset.
Lol, why, because you can't do it?
You are starting to piss me off now. You are taking something that nobody can perform assuming its going to happen and expanding it to be a basic Idea of the game. This is going to be my last responce to you because you arent actually talking about the same thing that im talking about. Im talking about what actually happens in game. and youre talking about stuff that people can possibly conceptually happen when people become perfect, which, SPOILER ALERT, is never going to happen.
You're really overestimating Pit's arrows, honestly. The difference in when it hits your shield will not be THAT vast if there's a difference at all. It's not like he can hold them mid-air for a frame or two after he releases them.So... you're saying that you can reliably powershield something that will hit you within the space of around 18 frame, with you opponent completely controlling which frame it will actually hit, and only if it hits during 3 of those frames will it be a powershield?
Telepathic much?
Don't you wish Arrow loops were that easy to set up? Because they aren't. >>Pit loops arrow and fires another one. Now you've got the same game with an additional arrow in play so he can punish your spotdodge.
Return to square 1.
How so? Varying the impact time by a measly 3 frames? Why can't he do that?You're really overestimating Pit's arrows, honestly.
I'm simplifying a lot obviously, but I think it still holds in general. Stage dependent obviously, but still.Don't you wish Arrow loops were that easy to set up? Because they aren't. >>
Take another look at the turning radius of those arrows. It definitely doesn't seem like enough to change the impact time by more than 2 frames at that speed if it can change the impact time at all.How so? Varying the impact time by a measly 3 frames? Why can't he do that?
I'm not so sure...I'm simplifying a lot obviously, but I think it still holds in general. Stage dependent obviously, but still.
Just because they're annoying doesn't mean they're impossible to powershield consistently.If you're not seriously annoyed by arrows, then you haven't been playing good Pits.
If you don't get annoyed by arrows that means you are a good player that can keep your cool and go for the win.If you're not seriously annoyed by arrows, then you haven't been playing good Pits.
If that was the case, I'd just start spamming jab and either clank it out, or end up slowly moving towards Pit until the point I hit him with one of my jabs.Are people actually arguing that you shouldn't usually be approaching Pit? Be realistic...you can't powershield everyone. As Adum stated, you have a good amount of options to vary how and when they hit. Maybe you could PS them from a distance, but even good Pit's get stuck holding a charging arrow right next to you. You really think you can PS it?
For me I can just ground Float to him and Nair his arrows to cancel them out and repeat till I get close. Thats how I get close to campy olimars.If that was the case, I'd just start spamming jab and either clank it out, or end up slowly moving towards Pit until the point I hit him with one of my jabs.
Samus will try to space herself to prevent this situation in the first place. Not at all will a Samus jump near a shielding opponent. You are picturing a dumb Samus.Samus lands in front of the shielding opponent because the opponent approached while shielding, when Samus already jumped beforehand. I'm not thinking of a stupid Samus player, I'm thinking of a smart opponent. And Samus can be forced to land right next to shields given the right circumstances, which are easy to replicate during a match given a character who can reliably shield while approaching.
Once again, If Samus doesn't make contact with the shield, she can fastfall into a shield or possible spotdodge.That's where frame-trapping comes into play. If Samus doesn't hit my shield, then I'll get her while she lands, during her landing lag. There are only a handful of attacks in the game that completely cancel out landing lag (Falco's silent lasers, Snake's grenade landing, MK's tornado from the right height, ZSS's dair from the right height...), and Samus' only attack that has NO landing lag is her zair. which if she uses will set her up for a parry from an OoS option. It's possible to avoid this with some certain maneuvers, like say... Footstooling the opponent's shield so Samus can jump again and making the opponent miss his OoS option.
Then you should be more specific with what you say.You're thinking of the common applications of OoS options. An OoS option is, as the name states, an out-of-shield option. If you shield and do something out of shield, then you just did something OoS (out-of-shield).
The term OoS was used to coin the maneuver "parrying attacks", which is blocking an attack and retaliating with one of your own. I can still do an OoS option without parrying attacks, which is whatI'm saying here... Some characters (even Kirby) can trap Samus in situations she can't do anything, where she is most vulnerable, with OoS options. If Samus attacks the shield she gets parried. If Samus doesn't attack the shield, she gets punished for not preventing the opponent from approaching in his shield (pretty much the reason why her matchup against DDD is super terrible, even with the standing infinite banned... She is doomed against people who revolve around shields due to not being able to do anything to shields).
I didn't say that. She doesn't leave herself susceptible to punishment when she's avoiding, as you're now suddenly presuming. Her "avoiding" actually makes the opponent require to guess and predict how to punish her, since they can't attack her shield, and are limited to shielding themselves.Exactly. She avoids the OoS option when the opponent is approaching in his shield, and due to her trying to avoid it, she gets punished for it. Same goes for trying to counter the shield with any option.
I've already explained why you can't rely TOO much on shield against Samus, while what you're saying is true, it's not true to the exact concept and not as easy as a drift.This scenario happens all the time, and is the reason why Samus is so low in tourney results. She was doing her thing on-stage, and the opponent approached with the shield and reset the spacing she created by spamming projectiles and zairing at mid-range. Sanek punished because of his lag is how the MU should be played. Ganon punished because of a random Warlock Punch is just stupid. :|
The Samus example I've been using is what always happens when the MU is played correctly, with the opponent approaching instead of just sitting back in his shield, expecting Samus to approach... If all she can do to attempt to regain the advantage is spam projectiles from a distance, how does she win? If it's because the opponents approach and Samus punishes them for it, then they're playing the Mu wrong, and what I've been pointing out with the examples is what should be happening to Samus when the opponent approaches with shields the right way.
No, I mean DAir combos. There are a couple of true combos Samus can do out of DAir.You mean Dair strings.
What happens when she doesn't get the grabs in? She's not always gonna land those grabs, you know. People wisen up to her gimmicks and approach differently, avoiding falling for the same scenario a second/third/fourth time. What happens after that, when Samus can't rely on such gimmicks anymore due to the opponent staying out of Samus' grab range whenever she sets up her traps, then approaching whenever she begins setting them up?
I don't live in a state.Which is why I haven't questioned your knowledge with condescending remarks. You're in your state's PR for a reason, as am I in mine.
Yea you do.I don't live in a state.
The basic hierarchy of Canadian government (in order of jurisdictional responsibilities) is roughly: Federal, Provincial, Territorial, Regional Municipal (regional), County, Municipal (city), Township, District.Yea you do.
Unless you mean by state "one of the 50 federated states that make up the United States of America", which is a rather odd way to interpret his initial statement because in that case, neither does he (he's from PR).
Canada is a state, and your province is essentially a federated State (though it's referred to as a province, conceptually it's the same).
Actually, fairer comment would be "you don't live in a state", because PR is not a state in any meaning of the term due to it's lack of sovereignty and the fact that it's not a member state of the American Union.
Sorry, I just rambled about poli sci, didn't I?