SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
Sounds just like any other another best characterThey have A LOT of MK players, just few successful ones. That could still be considered a problem by some people.
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Sounds just like any other another best characterThey have A LOT of MK players, just few successful ones. That could still be considered a problem by some people.
There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...MK destroyed the game depth lol!
...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".And banning those stages would only make it very slightly easier to beat mk, which isn't gonna help that much.
So, imagine if for some reason, a glitch was discovered that broke Falco to hell and back on SV. Say, some sort of platform cancel in combination with his sideB that makes runaway not just good, but absolutely broken beyond belief. What now... We have a combination of a character and a stage which is clearly broken. Do we ban the character or the stage?This is not a relevant conclusion because there is no reason for such conditions to be met.
Lol at people acting like they know what the Metagame will be like with MK gone. Yea because we can base the depth not having MK will bring 2 months before he is banned ok.......There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...
...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".
I personally think that with RC and Brinstar banned, Olimar, Fox, Falco, and possibly Marth all have a chance of going even or better with MK. Yes, dat regional bias, but seriously?
You guys don't have a marth as good as Mr R, both in general and in terms of skill in the MK matchup.
You guys don't have an Olimar who is as good at the MK matchup as Brood or Nietono.
You guys probably don't have a fox as good as Yui.
The top Falco in the USA is basically out of action at the moment because he's got too much else; nobody else even comes close to DEHF's previous level with Falco beyond perhaps LSL, who from what I hear is ****ing amazing.
It's thoroughly possible that MK has even, maybe even bad matchups with those two stages banned. The USA metagame just hasn't provided it yet. Meanwhile, Japan and Europe haven't had MKs winning tournaments, let alone 5 places of top 8 at a national, in quite a while.
So, imagine if for some reason, a glitch was discovered that broke Falco to hell and back on SV. Say, some sort of platform cancel in combination with his sideB that makes runaway not just good, but absolutely broken beyond belief. What now... We have a combination of a character and a stage which is clearly broken. Do we ban the character or the stage?
Hell, that's not even a fair comparison. You know why? Nobody is considering banning SV anyways. Meanwhile both RC and Brinstar are almost universally banned outside of North America (with a few exceptions, most of which are negligible), and even quite often within it, and a lot of people cite the stage itself as a problem, not MK.
There are basically four opinions in this regards:
- MK breaks RC and Brinstar, therefore he as a character is broken and should be banned.
- MK is broken on RC and Brinstar, therefore the stages are broken and should be banned because characters offer more depth than stages and because the international community has already done this
- RC and Brinstar are broken/anticompetitive in and of themselves; neither stage is fit for competitive play with or without Metaknight
- and of course, the most fringe group: MK does not break RC and Brinstar, therefore neither really should be banned
The fourth can be ignored because it's stupid. The third is what Japan and some considerable parts of Europe think (paging Gheb to the thread). The second is the opinion I personally hold, and apparently something akin to what Alex Strife and the others behind APEX believe. The first... Eh, I'm sorry, I can't agree with it. Characters, as a rule, do offer more depth than stages. Simple fact.
TL;DR: there are damn well good reasons for those conditions to be met; plus, most places worth looking at outside of the USA already have (Mexico, most of Europe, Japan...).
Your ruleset caters to you. This is understandable.Because ultimately we take into account who our stake holders are. If you aren't affected by the Unity Ruleset, you aren't a stake holder. We are people that have a finite amount of time. You can say what you want and I listen to your opinion just by reading it and responding to it, but why would I cater to you when in reality catering to you puts me at odds with a competing claim of people that actually attend my tournies or could attend my tournies?
Physically impossible may have been a slight exaggeration, sorry. Basically, it costs me $200 or more to get to a tourney and I can't get to one more then once in six months, without coming into some serious money (being that I'm 16)It's not a matter of physically impossible. Either you are able to run or attend a tourney, or the Unity ruleset doesn't apply to you. It's a binary that you can't have both ways where you can't run or attend a tourney, but you have a stake in the ruleset. You have no stake in this at all by your own admission.
Ok.Whether you believe it or not is on you. It stops being my problem after me listening to you and letting you know you've been heard.
How am I to find a flaw in an argument I don't know exists.You can absolutely find a flaw. People before you have found flaws. We've changed the rules to cover those flaws. You aren't some special victim case here.
My inability to have power is out of my hands. It is based on my luck, that I just happen to live here and there happens to be no competitive community here.This is in no way fixable by the URC. Your inability to have power is focused in the things you claim are physically impossible.
No Jebus. Japan isn't the potential of the mk metagame. The reason why he's banned here is because we have found a great and powerful potential for mk that no other place has. Like Mew2King doing all of that planking with mk.Japan doesn't have a problem with MK. They must be doing something right
@Ibis, don't ask me why we have the ledge grab amount we have. That's like asking why we use a 8 min timer over any other timer
@C.J., Did you even watch the set? From what I heard, TKD only used Fox in one of the matches of that set. He recently beat Tyrant in one of Mike's tournaments
With that same money you would spend traveling to a tourney, you could spend it on getting a venue and hosting a tournament. Even if it's once every six months, you'd be doing a huge part towards working to a solution on things.Physically impossible may have been a slight exaggeration, sorry. Basically, it costs me $200 or more to get to a tourney and I can't get to one more then once in six months, without coming into some serious money (being that I'm 16)
The entire ruleset is viewable to the public: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12492158How am I to find a flaw in an argument I don't know exists.
You missed my point here. I was commenting on the lack of discussion by the URC in the forums, which makes it impossible for me to find flaws in stuff, because I don't know it exists. (Like how the preliminary discussion said nothing was going to happen when I can find very few logical reasons for so in this thread.)
I live in the Midwest. At this time last year, my local scene was pretty dead. I had to make a choice. If I don't make my own luck and host my own tournaments and recruit people outside of my normal social network, I have to drive 3.5 to 4 hours for the next closest local tournament. I got a job specifically to do both. I can now host local tournies AND travel. All while at one point maintaining 2 jobs, an internship, going to KU, Smash Lab, URC, and a relationship.My inability to have power is out of my hands. It is based on my luck, that I just happen to live here and there happens to be no competitive community here.
I don't know what you are trying to say here.Also, how would I know I had power even if I did the one thing that I could, that being talk to someone in person (a long time from now.)
I wouldn't. Because I don't know what my area is representing at all, or why.
alright lets start this response off right.There are 2, maybe 3 characters expected to get a real rise out of MK being banned. Destroys game depth my ***...
...No, it'd turn most of MK's "evenish" matchups from "oh god I have to win games 1 and 3" to "I might actually stand a chance game 2". That's not "slightly easier", that's "hey, this character is no longer even remotely broken".
I personally think that with RC and Brinstar banned, Olimar, Fox, Falco, and possibly Marth all have a chance of going even or better with MK. Yes, dat regional bias, but seriously?
You guys don't have a marth as good as Mr R, both in general and in terms of skill in the MK matchup.
You guys don't have an Olimar who is as good at the MK matchup as Brood or Nietono.
You guys probably don't have a fox as good as Yui.
The top Falco in the USA is basically out of action at the moment because he's got too much else; nobody else even comes close to DEHF's previous level with Falco beyond perhaps LSL, who from what I hear is ****ing amazing.
It's thoroughly possible that MK has even, maybe even bad matchups with those two stages banned. The USA metagame just hasn't provided it yet. Meanwhile, Japan and Europe haven't had MKs winning tournaments, let alone 5 places of top 8 at a national, in quite a while.
The top Japanese MKs go almost even with players like Brood, Nietono, and 9B–the first of which happens to generally place the worst of the three in Japan and who wrecked our best MKs in '10–and they're "straight up nowhere near our MKs level"?! This lacks any credibility, I'm sorry.alright lets start this response off right.
we've seen the metaknights from other countries both europe and japan. and we were not impressed. the other countries MKs straight up are nowhere near our MKs level.
Didn't I preface that with IMO? In any case, he's got a more established tournament presence. MikeHaze hasn't won of placed particularly highly in anything worth mentioning of late; Ramin has been consistently beating pretty much everyone in the EU, plus he scared Ally out of using MK against him. If that doesn't say something, I don't know what does.you're gonna sit there and tell me that Mr.R. is straight guarenteed better than mikehaze? well the only way we can even hope to confirm this is apex seeing as how (to my knowledge) Mr.R. has yet to come to an american tournament.
Meh, I could be misinformed.i could easily argue that tkd is as good/better than yui. there is no probably about it.
Oh? Drat. I guess the guy who made the Reversal Meteor Minus combo vids is not at the same time one of the best players in the world. Shame.the new japanese falco is SLS, not LSL. this has nothing to with how good other countries falco's are this is just for referance. but i do agree the dude is straight up amazing.
Yeah, but I left that out because I'm pretty sure that nobody in their right minds thinks that MK-ICs is even, even with everything but SV/BF/FD banned.also you forgot the true most important fear character in the game. i concede to japan having the best solo Ice Climbers. (oh and i just watched vinnie vs ally, random fact for those of you don't know *cough dmbrandon cough*. it's pronounced Ku-b because Ku is japanese for 9)
I mean no offense to Malcom, but... Malcom who? USA has no Warios worth mentioning at a high level. None.also gluttony could very well be the best wario but we'll have to see on that one too. malcom is kinda ridiculous sometimes
It really is impossible to make these types of statements, either way, when the interaction between US/EU/*** is roughly once a year. I guess we will find out more at Apex with how the different countries competition stacks up with one another.I mean no offense to Malcom, but... Malcom who? USA has no Warios worth mentioning at a high level. None.
I don't really know when he moved exactly (sometime summer/late 2010?) but I do know he has basically been ranked around where I have been on the SWF rankings. I know at the end of 2010 he was ranked 91st on the SWF rankings, and this was the last time data is available for (this is based on the fact that the Jan ranking showed he dropped 31 positions, and that is the last time data is available). I don't believe Orion was ever ranked in the top 30, which is where he would typically need to be in order to be in the top 10 of MKs. Usually there are 8-10 MK's in the top 20 alone, and Orion was never a top 20 US player.@AZ: he was 4th on the NJ PR (9th-best MK in the USA in terms of results) when he moved, now he's, for the most part, been placing top 3 at most major tournaments.
Random fact for those of you who don't know.(oh and i just watched vinnie vs ally, random fact for those of you don't know *cough dmbrandon cough*. it's pronounced Ku-b because Ku is japanese for 9)
There would be no reason to sandbag seeing as how one tournament isn't going to change anyone's mind. I also think we are going to see all the MK solo mains go all out. Even then, I don't think that M2K or any MK is going to take first.My predictions for Apex
M2K sandbags hard and gets ***** on purpose, antiban gains the "M2K lost in Apex!!!" argument, MK is then unbanned.
Hence the hypothetical. Derp. I'm saying, if the internationals make a great showing, or hell, even if someone like Dabuz, ADHD or Vinnie finally pushes that last step/brings it back to where they were before and places top 3 at a huge tournament like this without MK, and we do get no MKs in top 3, one in top 5, and maybe 2 or 3 in top 8... What will this imply? Will it be overlooked as an "outlier" because it's "just one tournament"? Would it be meaningless? Again, I'm not asking how likely I'm is, I'm just wondering what it would mean in the hypothetical situation.m2k will take first as he is quitting brawl afterword so he's def going out with a bang
ally will take second also using lots of MK since it's MKs big goodbye
if gluttony comes him, gnes, razer, nietono, or adhd will take 3rd. the following spots will be taken up by these players. then the top japanese (brood masashi 9b) and non-gluttony europeans (mr.r leon etc) will mix in with the rest of our top MKs, one pikachu, and 2 random lucarios.
everything else, who cares?
Unless it's poolsM2K would not sandbag at a national like that. Please don't ever suggest that. Ever. That's an insult.
I don't see it changing anything given that regardless of what people have to say about the ruleset and such, I highly doubt that a significant portion of the 75% of people who voted pro-ban will suddenly change sides just because MK doesn't win a national.
Um... You mean, the best MKs in the USA getting routed at possibly the largest tournament in the history of smash by internationals? Excuse me, but this is actually kind of a unique opportunity in that regards. We've got major international attendance–the best players from all over the world are going to show up. Call me crazy, but if Japan kicks our *****, or Mr R shows us that Marth is criminally underrated by the USA, or the best MKs in the USA fail to place top 5, what does that say about our so-called "hyperdeveloped" metagame? What does that say about all the "MK is broken" claims? "It's a statistical anomaly"?Even then, MK not winning one national after having won like 5 big events this year wouldn't mean much. Or at least that's the reverse of what anti-bans have been telling the pro-ban.
No matter how epic or signficiant Apex is, it's still one tournament. 1 tournament = too small. That's what I've learned from the anti-bans.Um... You mean, the best MKs in the USA getting routed at possibly the largest tournament in the history of smash by internationals? Excuse me, but this is actually kind of a unique opportunity in that regards. We've got major international attendance–the best players from all over the world are going to show up. Call me crazy, but if Japan kicks our *****, or Mr R shows us that Marth is criminally underrated by the USA, or the best MKs in the USA fail to place top 5, what does that say about our so-called "hyperdeveloped" metagame? What does that say about all the "MK is broken" claims? "It's a statistical anomaly"?
Twinkie, when you reference those 5 big events, what you're missing is who is involved. For all intents and purposes, the top players there were fairly similar–Vinnie, Dabuz, ADHD, M2K, Ally, Nairo, and Anti were pretty consistently the best players present. APEX 2012? We're gonna have JP, EU, WC, TX... You get the point. There's a huge difference between "Vinnie takes a tournament off of other EC pros for the first time in 6 tournaments" and "top EC pros get bodied by Japan". APEX is simply going to be the most significant tournament in that regard–we've got almost everyone except like Glutonny coming.
(Again, still based on the hypothetical)
Well considering no one seriously uses those numbers to rank a players skill, its based at least on the fact that he was the second best MK in NJ and third in NY/NJ. However if you really believe he was at best top 20, it would be as easy as naming 10-20 MKs that are better than him.Just curious, where is your data coming from?
Im curious. Do people find the voluntary MK ban poll to be a worthwhile statistic in spite of its understood uselessness in the profession? If your answer is yes is it because:I highly doubt that a significant portion of the 75% of people who voted pro-ban will suddenly change sides just because MK doesn't win a national.