Wobbling Compromise

[rhan]

let's ban fox

Wall shining is prevented by not going to a stage with a wall. You can play on any stage and wobble.

 

[pockyD]

but as i said earlier, it wont (and shouldnt imo) be universally banned untill someone abuses it at a national. untill then, restrictions will be kept at regional biases.

explain why we should be playing the same game under different rules

and even aside from that, you would still need to explain why it should be banned in ANY region

 

[KAOSTAR]

thats also dumb.

if its not proven to be broken why ban it at regionals.

why at all? until its ban worthy.

 

[Strong Badam]

explain why we should be playing the same game under different rules

and even aside from that, you would still need to explain why it should be banned in ANY region

this .

 

[mastermoo420]

In all seriousness, I feel that local tourneys just need to man up and make it legal for the sake of the future of Melee. See how it goes (considering I don't think there's been a point where EVERYONE legalized it), and if it's completely ground-breaking, have it limited. Then if that's still too much, ban it. I think an action, though unpopular, needs to be taken to prove a point, whether pro- or anti-wobbling. Stop theorycrafting and let it happen IRL. >: Fox SHOULD be banned because of his shine and speed and other broken stuff, but nobody's perfect enough to execute his **** like that so he's not. IRL > SWF (sometimes).

 

[Wobbles]

There are no special rules to be made here folks. No magical trades, no "if you infinite we take away X." The game doesn't need it.

We're not "giving" the ICs an infinite to make up for their tougher matchups. It's something they have as a result of being the character that they are. That's it. The fact that there are two of them is what gives them various strengths and weaknesses.

What weaknesses? How about if Nana eats a couple bad hits from knees or Ganon's f-air, she dies and suddenly your damage capability is cut in half--technically MORE because you don't have your grab combos--for the rest of the stock? Name one character that loses damage output after getting hit. Except the ICs, there aren't any! And we sure as hell aren't making up rules to accommodate them for it; it's one of the things you accept about your character when you pick them. You don't take **** away because it's different, you ban things because they're broken, or else you leave them the hell alone.

Is it broken? Almost none of you has sat down and said, "yes, this makes the ICs overpowered and gives them a massively unfair advantage over everybody, drastically reducing the viability of other characters and strategies merely through existing." For those who have, we asked you to prove it, and you didn't. You couldn't. "THEY CAN GRAB AND GET A STOCK!" The reality is that landing this infinite becomes more and more difficult the better your opponent gets. So what if you DO get grabbed once or twice and lose lives to an infinite? If that's literally all the other guy is capable of doing, doesn't that mean you just *won*? What's the problem?

And if it's NOT all he's capable of doing and you end up losing one stock to an infinite and three stocks to other stuff, then how is the infinite the problem? Even if it's a close match, it's obvious to me that if you take away somebody's combos and abilities their power goes down.

Fox is considered the best (or very very close 2nd) in the game right now, yeah? You know though? The shine is stupid. Comes out instantly, makes him invincible, cancels as fast as you can press the button to do it, gives him combos into KO off one move at any percent, it can literally kill you even when you're at zero percent; it even reflects projectiles! He's already a great character, he just doesn't need it. Let's ban it. No shining. Now, Fox probably isn't the best in the game anymore. He's still really good though, so it's okay, right?

 

[mastermoo420]

Hey, look, we used the same example of Fox! I am in agreement, btw.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

because
1. the people that make the rule dont like wobbling for whatever reason
or
2. someone, or multiple people from a specific region abuse it.

i want it to be universally agreed on too, but different regions have different people who have different morals.

 

[Strong Badam]

...morals? this is a video game, no one is being wronged here.

 

[pockyD]

because
1. the people that make the rule dont like wobbling for whatever reason

If the reasoning is personal motive rather than grounded in logic, isn't that a problem that should be rectified?

Would you find it acceptable if a TO that mained ICs banned peach from their tournament?

2. someone, or multiple people from a specific region abuse it.

You still haven't proven that it can be 'abused' to the extent of breaking the game [aside from stalling, which is already covered]

i want it to be universally agreed on too, but different regions have different people who have different morals.

so time to give up, right?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wobbles it's very clear that it isn't broken and other people are much better than the ice climbers right?

there is no logic that should prove those 2 wrong. so it's illogicness that will prove you wrong. they can kill nana, not get hit up to 20%, play ice climbers dittos or not get grabbed. you can die from non ice climber grabs at lower than 20% so useing their F***ed out logic sheik's d-throw should be banned, damage them till 80% f-tilt fair= stock anyone can easily do it if they try.


really bnning sheik's d-throw would overall help the metagame waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy more than banning ice climbers wbbling. but they aren't a total road block for bottom/low tiers.

 

[Pengie]

I don't see why wobbling should be banned when none of their other infinites are banned.

 

[hungrybox]

Don't get grabbed?


:D


Banning wobbling without banning rest or shine is silly.

Shine kills are FAR easier to pull off, and rest is just stupid.


Wobbling requires a well-placed grab with proper spacing, a timing as near as 100BPM as possible, and ABSOLUTELY no messing up.


Hence, I am pro-wobbling. No compromise.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

im not a TO. talk to alu or a TO that bans wobbling for no particular reason.

abusing (more so overusing. sorry, i chose the wrong word.)can lead to butthurt people, well, not liking wobbling. which can lead to people boycotting tournaments run by a certain person. so wouldnt TOs want a better turnout?

maybe all the major regional TOs can vote on a universal agreement to settle this.

 

[Strong Badam]

here's a universal agreement: not banning wobbling.

 

[EPsilon933]

Does Ice Climbers + Wobbling = top tier?
no, at least as far as my knowledge goes they aren't as broken as Falco/Fox/Jigglypuff/Marth/Sheik

Does Ice Climbers + Wobbling = boring?
yes


I'm in favor of compromise. It should be legal until the opponent is at 200% because anything past that is unnecessary and could be used for 8 minutes to run out the timer and win if Ice Climbers have the stock lead.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i know i want it legal too. IC players are mature enough to not use it for stalling. its a legit tactic. it shouldnt be banned. but not everyone agrees w/ it and it might create a quite bit of argument within the community if we all force what we think is right.

 

[Tee ay eye]

let ICs wobble peach at least

 

[KAOSTAR]

people are just being *****es. lol

 

[Pr0jecT]

Chu vs Darkrain at CEO2010. NUFF SAID


Well lets see. Why would you go for a normal chain grab over a wobble exactly? You wouldn't. It's pretty much a handicap for mediocre IC's imo. IC's are fine without it, its so ****ing simple to do. Its been banned for this long I don't see why all of a sudden it needs to be unbanned.'

I don't have to learn **** about the character or any matchup. I just have to learn to bait, wavedash, grab. Tap A and win. Stupid.

 

[pockyD]

ICs are 'fine' without it

They're also 'fine' with it

Fox is 'fine' without the shine

Falco is 'fine' without lasers

and there's no such thing as "ICs + Wobbling"; Wobbling is innately a part of ICs as defined by the game. There's either "ICs" or "ICs - Wobbling"

 

[Roneblaster]

saying wobbling shouldn't banned isnt good enough.

2 of the biggest TO's right now (alu n plank) both have it banned. the onius is on pro-wobblers.

and its been established several times throughout this thread that IC's are fine without wobbling. chu won tournaments without them (no time era johns)

ban it, they dont need it to compete.

 

[Pr0jecT]

BUT RENEBLADE, HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT KIDS IF I CANT 0 TO DEATH THEM EVERY STOCK BECAUSE THEY MESSED UP A KNEE!? seriously. If its allowed, it'll be ABUSED so hard.

 

[Roneblaster]

uh..what?

10youcant****upaknee

 

[pockyD]

saying wobbling shouldn't banned isnt good enough.

2 of the biggest TO's right now (alu n plank) both have it banned. the onius is on pro-wobblers.

I don't get it... if a major T.O. (say DBR) hosts a tournament where wobbling isn't banned (say, Genesis), does that somehow influence the argument?

This isn't real evidence of anything

and its been established several times throughout this thread that IC's are fine without wobbling. chu won tournaments without them (no time era johns)

ban it, they dont need it to compete.

i think we can ban half the moves in the game by that criteria

 

[mastermoo420]

BUT RENEBLADE, HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT KIDS IF I CANT 0 TO DEATH THEM EVERY STOCK BECAUSE THEY MESSED UP A KNEE!? seriously. If its allowed, it'll be ABUSED so hard.

OH MAN, IF WE HAVE A MOVE THAT COMES OUT ON ONE FRAME THAT HAS A DECENTLY SIZED HITBOX FOR A CLOSE RANGE MOVE WITHOUT ANY EXTENDED APPENDAGES THAT RELEASES A BLUE FLASH AND MOST OFTEN LEADS TO A DEATH WHEN USED UPON SOMEONE OFF-STAGE, HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT KIDS? seriously. If its allowed, it'll be ABUSED so hard.

Guys, just ban Metaknight. He's broken.

 

[Wobbles]

Chu vs Darkrain at CEO2010. NUFF SAID


Well lets see. Why would you go for a normal chain grab over a wobble exactly? You wouldn't. It's pretty much a handicap for mediocre IC's imo. IC's are fine without it, its so ****ing simple to do. Its been banned for this long I don't see why all of a sudden it needs to be unbanned.'

I don't have to learn **** about the character or any matchup. I just have to learn to bait, wavedash, grab. Tap A and win. Stupid.

Money match? I'll play... I dunno, Peach. Against your wobbling ICs. $20 sound good?

By the way, maybe you wanna brush up on your history. It was discovered in 2002 and it wasn't banned in tournies until 2007. It went unbanned for so long, why did they want to ban it then? Period of time it's been legal is far greater than the time it's been banned.

 

[Pr0jecT]

Disregard everything i mentioned, Hax just schooled in me the wobbling debate. Also, I suck ****.

Money match? I'll play... I dunno, Peach. Against your wobbling ICs. $20 sound good?

By the way, maybe you wanna brush up on your history. It was discovered in 2002 and it wasn't banned in tournies until 2007. It went unbanned for so long, why did they want to ban it then? Period of time it's been legal is far greater than the time it's been banned.

You'll win. Wanna know why? I'm not a top IC player. I'm a medicore falcon main who doesn't get out of pools at regionals. You're a smarter and better player then me, you'll win with peach most likely by 4 stocks. IC's are one of the few characters that I john about A TON. Its just my own personal prejudice to be honest, if I didn't already dislike IC's cause i lose to them then I wouldn't care about wobbling.

 

[PottyJokes]

come on man, even brawl allows ice cilmbers infiinte chain grabs.

 

[EPsilon933]

Guys, just ban Metaknight. He's broken.

But that leads into the boring argument. MetaKnight's one of the only almost half decently fun characters in the game. You can make the game boring, can you?

Spoiler

Yes, I am trolling, currently.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

heres just a random thought.

w/o it, the ice climas are forced to use tech skill that makes them much harder to be consistant with. banning it would make them much worse than legalizing it would make them better.

 

[Strong Badam]

Chu vs Darkrain at CEO2010. NUFF SAID


Well lets see. Why would you go for a normal chain grab over a wobble exactly? You wouldn't. It's pretty much a handicap for mediocre IC's imo. IC's are fine without it, its so ****ing simple to do. Its been banned for this long I don't see why all of a sudden it needs to be unbanned.'

I don't have to learn **** about the character or any matchup. I just have to learn to bait, wavedash, grab. Tap A and win. Stupid.

Hey, awesome, you just summed up most of the bad arguments for the banning of wobbling.

 

[booshk]

have you not seen a Marth uthrow cg -> utilt -> utilt -> uair -> fsmash Falco or Fox? **** takes way longer than 7 seconds.

additionally there's no legitimate argument for banning wobbling. you can ban stages, you can ban items, but you can't ban a specific combo. no Ice Climbers has ever stalled with wobbling in tournament.

hasn't m2k been stalled with someone wobbling him before? i vaguely remember him saying that.
i dont know if i'm pro-wobbling or anti-wobbling, just saying

 

[KAOSTAR]

saying wobbling shouldn't banned isnt good enough.

2 of the biggest TO's right now (alu n plank) both have it banned. the onius is on pro-wobblers.

and its been established several times throughout this thread that IC's are fine without wobbling. chu won tournaments without them (no time era johns)

ban it, they dont need it to compete.

this is like the worst argument ive ever heard. what about characters that are lacking, do we GIVE them some advantage to compensate.

why do we take something away from IC? just man up and prove its over powered.

you can't!

 

[Nintendude]

saying wobbling shouldn't banned isnt good enough.

2 of the biggest TO's right now (alu n plank) both have it banned. the onius is on pro-wobblers.

and its been established several times throughout this thread that IC's are fine without wobbling. chu won tournaments without them (no time era johns)

ban it, they dont need it to compete.

This is such a pathetic argument. ICs don't need Wobbling to compete? Well Fox doesn't need shine, Falco doesn't need lasers, Jiggs doesn't need Rest, Marth doesn't need f-smash, Peach doesn't need down-smash, Sheik doesn't need down-throw. All are really stupid moves and while Wobbling is much more powerful, it is also much harder to land.

Clearly the burden of proof is on the anti-Wobbling side. The pro-wobbling side simply wants the game to be played closer to its original state. The only reason to alter the game is if it breaks the game. This is why we've banned items and certain stages. Wobbling has yet to break the game, and won't ever break the game unless ICs become the best character.

 

[Vyzor]

I think the game already has enough broken techniques, do we really need another one to piss people off?

 

[KrazyKnux]

Ban wobbling, ban sheik's dthrow chaingrab. Icies have cool chaingrabs that have the same effect, and we should emphasize getting good at those. Cause it looks cool. Sheik's dthrow invalidates all low tier characters pretty much (they're bad already, but this just further handicaps them). Shines look cool, rests looks cool, so we can keep those.

Marth's chaingrab is more difficult, and if it leads from 0-death that's because somebody pulled it off perfectly, and that looks cool. Peach's chaingrab does not look cool, but it doesn't really lead to an automatic death. Just a well-DIed nair that you can survive. So those chaingrabs are legit.

That's about it. It's all about flashiness in my eyes, lol.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

yeah m2k said he was wobble stalled in the rom3 thread

 

[Vyzor]

****ty example. got pwned D:

 

[Tee ay eye]

allow wobbling up to 200% (just to ban stalling pretty much)

everything i wanna say has been said already

except i wanna just emphasize that people can learn to mash out of grabs

seriously, you can mash out before they can set up an infinite on you before like, 50%

@Vyzor:
What sane Fox player would let Ice Climbers grab him 3 times in tournament when he has such a stupid lead with Wobbling allowed?