Wobbling Compromise

[Fly_Amanita]

If Wobbling were always allowed with no restrictions, with the right mindset, good IC players that were once mediocre smashers in general would now be pushing for top 5 in the nation. There would be no way to beat them unless you switched to a character just for ICs that could decently camp them (Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc.). Match-up-charts would be screwed up, people would default an ICs as a secondary in tournaments because of wobbling trix, and other people who once played the characters they loved would have to switch to god-tier just to have a chance at beating the IC player.

What evidence we have from tourneys that allow wobbling contradicts this. There isn't a huge difference between how ICs perform with and without the technique.

 

[Ballistics]

Ballistics, shine infinites are able to be Smash-DI'd/DI'd. Once you're grabbed with Wobbling, you're dead. There is no skill/move/DI or function to get out. If performed perfectly, you're fcked.

yes this is true, I meant the shine infinite against a wall, I guess there's not many walls anymore in the neutrals and legal levels anyway.

So do you agree with the statement then that all infinites should be banned?

 

[SDC]

Assume that my version of good smasher then is a person near, or, at least at semi-professional level.

Here's my stab at providing a good reason for it's ban (or at least staying severely restricted):

I just learned how to wobble in 2 days. Now, despite your rank/ability/knowledge (match-ups, mind-games, etc.), once I grab you, you should just put down your controller until the next stock. Basically just camp me if you want to win (if you can), and if you play a character that can't camp well, good luck trying to beat me. Since now you're forced to approach me and most likely I'll grab you.

If Wobbling were always allowed with no restrictions, with the right mindset, good IC players that were once mediocre smashers in general would now be pushing for top 5 in the nation. There would be no way to beat them unless you switched to a character just for ICs that could decently camp them (Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc.). Match-up-charts would be screwed up, people would default an ICs as a secondary in tournaments because of wobbling trix, and other people who once played the characters they loved would have to switch to god-tier just to have a chance at beating the IC player.

Not to mention the fact that Smash Melee would slowly turn into a hit-run traditional fighter game, taking it's infamous pro-level game-play uniqueness and throwing it aside.

This really has nothing to do with me. It's things like Wobbling that question my faith in Smash Melee staying alive. If you guys want Smash Melee to get less respect than it already has, then by all means, lets approve of Wobbling.

The tournament evidence we have contradicts your earlier paragraphs completely.

Actually, if I remember correctly, wobbling got Melee more respect, because players of other fighting games saw wobbling as something that made it a more legitimate fighting game.

 

[SmashMac]

yes this is true, I meant the shine infinite against a wall, I guess there's not many walls anymore in the neutrals and legal levels anyway.

So do you agree with the statement then that all infinites should be banned?

No because there are no infinites aside from Wobbling. Those other "infinites" are purely situational/character-specific, where wobbling is a true infinite (all cases and all characters). It may seem like you're being infinited by someone like Shiz/SilientWolf/M2K in say perhaps a perfectly executed dair-shine-WD infinite, but in reality, you could get out of it if you tried and knew what to do. With Wobbling, there's no escape. It's strictly all attempts to avoiding it that give you your chance of survival.

 

[PEEF!]

Blizzobbling!!!!

BTW SmashMac, "In God We Trust" is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and I will argue that all day too.

 

[Pengie]

Smashmac: that's one slippery slope that you're painting. Most viable characters have they're own ways of avoiding grabs from ICs. Spacies and Falcon are both mobile enough to avoid the ICs grabs, Marth has his great range to avoid grabs, Sheik has her long range moves to avoid grabs, Jiggs has her amazing ability to space moves, Peach just laughs at ICs. And that's just the characters that are above them. Ganon can space fairs on the ICs shield and avoid grabs fairly well, Samus already gives ICs a hard time; n fact I'd say that most characters have ways to avoid grabs, it's just a matter of playing carefully.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Assume that my version of good smasher then is a person near, or, at least at semi-professional level.

Here's my stab at providing a good reason for it's ban (or at least staying severely restricted):

I just learned how to wobble in 2 days. Now, despite your rank/ability/knowledge (match-ups, mind-games, etc.), once I grab you, you should just put down your controller until the next stock. Basically just camp me if you want to win (if you can), and if you play a character that can't camp well, good luck trying to beat me. Since now you're forced to approach me and most likely I'll grab you.

If Wobbling were always allowed with no restrictions, with the right mindset, good IC players that were once mediocre smashers in general would now be pushing for top 5 in the nation. There would be no way to beat them unless you switched to a character just for ICs that could decently camp them (Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc.). Match-up-charts would be screwed up, people would default an ICs as a secondary in tournaments because of wobbling trix, and other people who once played the characters they loved would have to switch to god-tier just to have a chance at beating the IC player.

Not to mention the fact that Smash Melee would slowly turn into a hit-run traditional fighter game, taking it's infamous pro-level game-play uniqueness and throwing it aside.

This really has nothing to do with me. It's things like Wobbling that question my faith in Smash Melee staying alive. If you guys want Smash Melee to get less respect than it already has, then by all means, lets approve of Wobbling.

...

...

...


What?



Dude, even with Wobbling, ICs suck. Sure, that gives them a powerful grab game, but it's very conditional (20% or over, with popo and nana being together on a stage that doesn't screw then up) and grabbing with ICs is difficult due to the fact that the entire top tier has powerful anti-grab tools except Sheik (mostly because her anti-grab tools are signifigantly reduced by having 2 of them)


The MUs were it will help are irrelevant MUs, their relevant MUs will stay stable.




ICs suck, and wobbling doesn't change that, they'll still be a rare character that occasionally pops up. Sure, you gotta play mad safe against them, but pretty much every relevant character has the tools to do just that, there's no reason to be worried about the ICs.



If there's a major skill gap, don't get grabbed, it's not that hard.

 

[SmashMac]

The tournament evidence we have contradicts your earlier paragraphs completely.

Actually, if I remember correctly, wobbling got Melee more respect, because players of other fighting games saw wobbling as something that made it a more legitimate fighting game.

Of course tournament evidence contradicts my paragraphs. As of now, for the most part Wobbling has been severely restricted if it hasn't been banned. I thought this was a thread on a Wobbling Compromise for the future of Wobbling and whether it should be banned/not banned/restricted?

Watch this match and tell me who's the better player despite the turnout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbLZq7AUII

Now how would you have known who was better had you been a new player aspiring to be good, checking out characters to main while sitting at your computer-desk and saw this video?

Hmm, someone giving Melee more respect because it contains Wobbling, more-so than the fact that it's one of the only unique fighting games of it's time. Which one would you choose?

This is more than the future of ICs. This is the future of Smash Melee we're talking here.

 

[SDC]

BTW SmashMac, "In God We Trust" is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and I will argue that all day too.

I will too, it's a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

 

[pockyD]

First off, perhaps you could have clarified your point to begin with as opposed to seemingly, whether consciously or subconsciously, mocking me with your first post 'set in stone'.

like i said, it hardly matters... northern state citizens were not simply in the dark about slavery as you seem to think; many of the first settlers up north had slaves too

Secondly, I did mention in the possibility of all tournaments that if wobbling wasn't banned it had strong restrictions, such as the up to 200% restriction per stock.

that's actually an incredibly weak restriction, since by FAR the most common use of wobbling is to take a stock, and by 200%, that's typically the case already

and as has already been mentioned countless times in this thread, that limit is in itself unnecessary; most rulesets already have a clause about "stalling" (typically including examples such as rising pound or peach's wall bomber) under which wobbling past KO percents already falls.

Also, I do understand the minority laws and rules put into place. However that doesn't change them from being the minority. It just protects their rights as well. I don't see nor understand how in a controversial subject such as this one a majority vote won't conclude it.

...because there's no vagueness about who would benefit and who would suffer from such a rule. there's nothing subjective here in a pure, blind vote

I see your argument with self-interest being valid, but if everyone looked out for themselves, normal people would be robbing stores every day and every cop out there would be dead or severely handicapped.

I really hope I never have to live where you live such that you think this is the case, but even so, a common reason to NOT commit a petty crime like shoplifting or speeding is indeed the fear of getting caught and punished; everybody weighs being able to get to their destination 10 minutes faster against the possibility of getting a $300 ticket whenever they get behind the wheel

So to a certain point that has to be limited, much like even though an IC player would be looking out for his/her self-interest with wobbling, it would have to be limited never-the-less (in tournaments that it wasn't banned it has been limited).

As mentioned above, the 'limiting' to fight stalling is already covered in the generic rule for stalling. it doesn't need a separate rule at all

Yes, I know what unanimous means. Probably could have chosen a better word that would've fit the context better for what I was trying to say though.

Yeah... the word you would've chosen would've pointed back at (or actually been) the term 'majority', which I've already stated I don't believe is the proper way to make such rulings given that people are driven by self-interest, consciously or not

And lastly no, this is the same SmashMac. I disagree with wobbling for a variety of reasons. Not just me, but almost 90% of all the smashers I've ever trained with agreed with me.

it's 'gay', it's boring, it's 'whack', it's easy once it gets started; i agree with that too

you need to justify the point where any of those aspects makes it bannable though; either by proving it's 'broken' or by attributing it to some other criteria

Hmm, someone giving Melee more respect because it contains Wobbling, more-so than the fact that it's one of the only unique fighting games of it's time. Which one would you choose?

This is more than the future of ICs. This is the future of Smash Melee we're talking here.

...and it's going to be a dark dark future if we begin (or depending on your perspective, continue) down the path of banning elements that have not proven to be broken or severely detrimental to gameplay

 

[SDC]

Of course tournament evidence contradicts my paragraphs. As of now, for the most part Wobbling has been severely restricted if it hasn't been banned. I thought this was a thread on a Wobbling Compromise for the future of Wobbling and whether it should be banned/not banned/restricted?

There were plenty of tournaments in which it was legal, and yet wobbling didn't fundamentally change the results.

Watch this match and tell me who's the better player despite the turnout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbLZq7AUII

What do you mean "who's the better player". They're both good, Wobbles plays very well. That match tells me nothing of "who's the better player", but instead of how the matchup will play out. Marth obviously has the advantage, but with wobbling the ICs have a glimmer of hope.

Now how would you have known who was better had you been a new player aspiring to be good, checking out characters to main while sitting at your computer-desk and saw this video?

Obviously marth is the better character, but the ICs are interesting and have a strong technique that can assist them even when in a bad matchup. That's what I would have thought. I hope others aren't so stupid they would have thought that the ICs are a better character.

Hmm, someone giving Melee more respect because it contains Wobbling, more-so than the fact that it's one of the only unique fighting games of it's time. Which one would you choose?

What? It's not about which one would I choose, and those two choices are completely meaningless. If you haven't noticed, other fighter game players do not respect smash as it is. They don't see us as "unique" or "different" or "special", they see us as "stupid". The fact that you care about their respect is a problem. You shouldn't need their respect.

It seems you are in clear denial of reality, the reality being that with wobbling, melee acquired far more respect then it did without it.

This is more than the future of ICs. This is the future of Smash Melee we're talking here.

If you actually did care about the future and respect of smash, then you would legalize wobbling. It balances the game and makes it seem more legitimate in the eyes of other fighting game players.

 

[Pengie]

Smac: All I saw in that video was Ken making bad decisions against a character with a very strong punishment game. The first grab was just plain ******** considering that the Wobbles was completely invincible then he countered against a character that is known for their amazing grabs. The last kill was probably getting frustrated and throwing out a careless forward smash. It pretty much shows that you only get wobbled wor making poor choices.

 

[rice]

Smac: All I saw in that video was Ken making bad decisions against a character with a very strong punishment game. The first grab was just plain ******** considering that the Wobbles was completely invincible then he countered against a character that is known for their amazing grabs. The last kill was probably getting frustrated and throwing out a careless forward smash. It pretty much shows that you only get wobbled wor making poor choices.

In all honesty, I don't think you have the skill or the experience to say that ken made a bad decision. And in all fairness, Wobbles made so many more "bad choices" than ken did. Yet Ken made a total 3. And it costed him the game. I just rewatched it. Ken's only mistake was the first grab. The 2nd one was off a tech chase, and the 3rd grab happened from a hit by the IC's making it pretty much unavoidable.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, first stock was me clearly outplaying HIM. No grabs, constant little nicks and that b-air straight off the ledge is something I actually pioneered!

First grab I land on him was Ken completely ignoring my positioning and jumping to the top platform even though I stood there, sync'ed and ready. I called his jump to that platform and expressly waited for it.

Second grab is him forgetting that I'm mostly jockeying for grabs and trying to counter after letting me get him in a tech-chase situation. It happened at 9%, but so do shinespikes and edgegimps. A good call, a hasty decision, a missed tech, all that can mean the difference between survival and getting gimped in tons of situations. What makes this one so different as to be unfair? (Third grab was luck though. Go Nana!)

Ken screwed up repeatedly in that match, then relied on a low-tier counterpick to try and salvage the set. Then I had the ability to counterpick and abused a matchup, which is pretty common in our counterpicking system. Do you not want people like Ken to lose even when they make big mistakes like that? **** happens.

 

[V3ctorMan]

In all honesty, I don't think you have the skill or the experience to say that ken made a bad decision. And in all fairness, Wobbles made so many more "bad choices" than ken did. Yet Ken made a total 3. And it costed him the game. I just rewatched it. Ken's only mistake was the first grab. The 2nd one was off a tech chase, and the 3rd grab happened from a hit by the IC's making it pretty much unavoidable.

hello Rice.. You don't know me.. but one of your fellow smash players, moved to my area... his name is "Max" not sure of his tag, but he said you were a part of his crew...jus saying uhh yeah..he says sup, and etc

on this subject: wobbling hmmm... it sucks to get wobbled =/

 

[Pengie]

Either way the point stands that jumping into an invincible character that has an extremely powerful punish from a grab is an undeniably bad decision and it cost him a stock. The other instances were still questionable desicions on Ken's part. Wobbles may have made many more mistakes, but Ken didn't punish sad mistakes because Marth can't really punish ICs mstakes as bad as ICs can punish Marth's mistakes.

Edit: Wobbles beat me to but it's alrght cuz he haz no skillz and just uses teh ghey grabz.

 

[SmashMac]

It doesn't seem like you guys are able to perceive my chain of thought here. People like me and rice see this as a player perspective where it seems you guys are seeing it from a character perspective. Me posting that video wasn't a battle for a new player seeing which character is better. It's a battle for the new player seeing which player is better. How would a new player be able to distinguish the better player having seen that video? Most wouldn't be able to consider every concept of Smash (ranking/tier-list/knowledge-smarts/mind-games/techskill/spacing). New players would pick Wobbles' ICs over Ken's Marth because of Ken's last 3 stocks.

And no I don't care about smash getting less respect. The overall point of that argument was the fact that smash would lose it's uniqueness from being a different fighter game.

 

[rice]

I've seen some of your videos v3ctorman! And hello. And i didn't mean to make wobbles look bad in my statement. In fact his last 2 grabs were very well placed and he played very well. I just assumed that ken had messed up because one of the people in here said he made bad choices. And i was just throwing out there that the stock was done when he got the grab Lol. And tell max i said sup.

 

[SDC]

Wobbling does not guarantee victory, anybody who thinks it does is completely naive. Watch this match, in this tournament, wobbling is legal, and watch what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHxPHwz8UU0&feature=related

 

[Ballistics]

I'm glad you made it here david, what do you think of PEEF! s compromise or Magus' infinite?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where's the pledge of allegiance/God on money issue come in? "Under God" and "in God we trust" are actually quite new.

It doesn't seem like you guys are able to see my chain of thought here. People like me and rice see this as a player perspective where it seems you guys are seeing it from an IC perspective. Me posting that video wasn't a battle between a new player seeing which character is better. It's a battle of seeing which player is better. How would a new player be able to distinguish the better player having seen that video? Most wouldn't be able to consider every concept of Smash (ranking/tier-list/knowledge-smarts/mind-games/techskill). New players would pick Wobbles ICs over Ken's Marth because of Ken's last 3 stocks.

And no I don't care about smash getting less respect. The overall point of that argument was the fact that smash would lose it's uniqueness, more-so than respect.

I think of it from the marth prospective, and dude, Ken sucked in that match.

He had no idea how to fight ICs properly, hell, he didn't WD back once in the entire match, and it showed.


You simply being a better overall player doesn't guarantee you victory, you also need to actually play against your opponent's character, and nobody's gonna john for me cause I suck at the marth ditto (hence why I play sheik at all), so why does Ken get a john for this MU.



As a marth player, ICs is an embarrassing MU to lose unless the player is already acknowledged to be significantly better then me, with or without wobbling.

 

[rice]

I have no idea what those are Derek... lol. And i think ken played quite well. He took advantage of IC's not being able to reach the top platform, so he used Up-bs to get away in some certain situations. And.... seriously?... just because he didn't wavedash back...means he doesn't know how to fight ICs properly? lol

 

[V3ctorMan]

I've seen some of your videos v3ctorman! And hello. And i didn't mean to make wobbles look bad in my statement. In fact his last 2 grabs were very well placed and he played very well. I just assumed that ken had messed up because one of the people in here said he made bad choices. And i was just throwing out there that the stock was done when he got the grab Lol. And tell max i said sup.

Allrite I will, and awesome I didn't know you had watched, always good to know I suppose ^^
just curious on this wobble debate, but couldn't we just... idk.. hav it legal for major tourney(s) etc, then make it illegal for some and see if results would deter or anything...

I mean idk, just giving maybe a way both sides can be happy? idk =/

 

[Nintendude]

It doesn't seem like you guys are able to perceive my chain of thought here. People like me and rice see this as a player perspective where it seems you guys are seeing it from a character perspective. Me posting that video wasn't a battle for a new player seeing which character is better. It's a battle for the new player seeing which player is better. How would a new player be able to distinguish the better player having seen that video? Most wouldn't be able to consider every concept of Smash (ranking/tier-list/knowledge-smarts/mind-games/techskill/spacing). New players would pick Wobbles' ICs over Ken's Marth because of Ken's last 3 stocks.

And no I don't care about smash getting less respect. The overall point of that argument was the fact that smash would lose it's uniqueness from being a different fighter game.

Why should we care if unknowledgeable people can't distinguish who is better because of ONE set? Upsets happen all the time. If the same person who thinks Wobbles > Ken because of that 1 set saw Mango vs. Kage he would think that Kage > Mango when that's obviously not true. In Ken vs. Wobbles, Ken was simply outplayed. Wobbles made some great reads and Ken made some blunders. Wobbles deserved that win wobbling or not.

What tournaments boil down to is proving who the best players are. People who wobble are still using a character that's inferior to the top tier, so if a wobbling ICs gets top-8 in a national he got there because he's really fricking good, not because he knew how to wobble.

 

[SmashMac]

Wobbling does not guarantee victory, anybody who thinks it does is completely naive. Watch this match, in this tournament, wobbling is legal, and watch what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHxPHwz8UU0&feature=related

So what does this video prove besides an IC player can still be amazing without Wobbling and that Zhu had to be god-tier to beat the ICs?

Of course Wobbling doesn't guarantee victory. If someone is able to execute Wobbling perfectly though and they grab you your stock will be gone. Get grabbed once each stock and there's the game.

Wobbles, the video was just an example. You're a great player but common knowledge is Ken is the better player. Everyone gets grabbed, everyone, pros on all levels included. Look up RockCrock's Actions Per Minute thread.

 

[SmashMac]

Why should we care if unknowledgeable people can't distinguish who is better because of ONE set? Upsets happen all the time. If the same person who thinks Wobbles > Ken because of that 1 set saw Mango vs. Kage he would think that Kage > Mango when that's obviously not true.

What tournaments boil down to is proving who the best players are. People who wobble are still using a character that's inferior to the top tier, so if a wobbling ICs gets top-8 in a national he got there because he's really fricking good, not because he knew how to wobble.

The initial point of that argument was based off of that one match, which character will a new player aspiring to be good pick and why. If every new player did that there would be more IC mains everywhere and that explains my previous post on IC's wobbling changing the meta-game of Smash Melee. Caring or not, that's what happens.

I agree to Wobbling being banned or restricted (as it is for the most part now). If it's not banned and not restricted, you would see more IC players placing high, I guarantee it. Granted, they would have to be a great player of course, but knowing how to wobble and using that in tournaments with every grab (where everyone gets grabbed) would set their skill-level off.

 

[Ballistics]

David the wobbling compromise peef is using is to not allow the ice climbers to wobble after 5 hits, in return the other player forfeits the right to counterpick on non neutral stages.

Magus' infinite is headbutt blizzard wait headbutt blizzard wait... so on. Is this still technically "wobbling" ?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I have no idea what those are Derek... lol. And i think ken played quite well. He took advantage of IC's not being able to reach the top platform, so he used Up-bs to get away in some certain situations. And.... seriously?... just because he didn't wavedash back...means he doesn't know how to fight ICs properly? lol

Yes.


TBH it boils down to one thing, "he got grabbed", many times. That should not happen in that MU... maybe once I can see, but the fact is that marth always has the tools to avoid the grab. As for the specifics of the mistakes.


Yes, wavedashing back, it's a major part of what keeps marth safe. He was too aggro in that match. There were times when he played quite well (for the time) like in the beginning, but overall it was a disaster. I mean he JUMPED RIGHT INTO THEIR GRAB for god's sake.



And it's not like this is years later, where people got significantly better at avoiding grabs, right?

The initial point of that argument was based off of that one match, which character will a new player aspiring to be good pick and why. If every new player did that there would be more IC mains everywhere and that explains my previous post on IC's wobbling changing the meta-game of Smash Melee. Caring or not, that's what happens.

I agree to Wobbling being banned or restricted (as it is for the most part now). If it's not banned and not restricted, you would see more IC players placing high, I guarantee it. Granted, they would have to be a great player of course, but knowing how to wobble and using that in tournaments with every grab (where everyone gets grabbed) would set their skill-level off.

Yet, why would every newbie player watch ICs?


They're an obviously limited character so they'll never be taking tons of top spots, which will mean we'll never be inundated by new ICs players because they're much more likely to see a **** fox then a **** IC. Sure if they start by running into a video of wobbles, maybe, but how much more likely are they to run into a video of one of the many fox, falco, or hell falcon pros?



Maybe a few more placing high, but a major shift to the metagame, no way.

 

[pockyD]

what's wrong with more newbies playing ICs?

 

[adumbrodeus]

He's suggesting that legalizing wobbling would result in a flood of new ICs players, and everyone would secondary them, etc.



Of course, this is defeated by the fact that they're not actually good.

 

[SDC]

The initial point of that argument was based off of that one match, which character will a new player aspiring to be good pick and why. If every new player did that there would be more IC mains everywhere and that explains my previous post on IC's wobbling changing the meta-game of Smash Melee. Caring or not, that's what happens.

This point implies that these same scrubs wouldn't try using ICs at a high level, and wouldn't get their ***** kicked by a good fox, falco, falcon, marth, or jiggz (which would happen in today's metagame). They'd soon see from experience that the ICs, despite their strong grab game, are completely inferior to today's top characters, such as fox, jiggz, falco, sheik, marth, falcon, etc. Thus, your whole point that "more scrubs would use ICs because of Wobbles vids thus the metagame changes" is absolute trash.

I agree to Wobbling being banned or restricted (as it is for the most part now). If it's not banned and not restricted, you would see more IC players placing high, I guarantee it. Granted, they would have to be a great player of course, but knowing how to wobble and using that in tournaments with every grab (where everyone gets grabbed) would set their skill-level off.

No it wouldn't. You just said:

Granted, they would have to be a great player of course

So even if they could wobble their high tournament placement would be because they were great players with a strong (not great) character. Thanks for refuting your own point.

And, even IF wobbling significantly boosted the ICs' results, then how is that a bad thing? What's wrong with variety at the highest level? What's wrong with a few ICs mixing in with the top 20 at a tournament? Variety and balance at the highest level is GOOD for a competitive scene. Even with wobbling, ICs still aren't even that good of a character anyway.

 

[Nintendude]

IC mains are rare for 2 main reasons:

1. ICs are really tough to learn and use at a high level.
2. ICs are barely tournament viable.

Wobbling mitigates #1 a little bit by taking emphasis off of grab combos, and it mitigates #2 by making ICs a better character. However, a character like Falco is still better than ICs in both respects, and Falco is also a better character than the ICs. Why nerf a character who, even with wobbling, is worse than top tiers like Falco? And what's wrong with more character diversity? Wobbling will only help noobs beat other noobs (why do we care about how noobs place in a tournament?). It's not gonna allow a mediocre players to routinely beat top players. Maybe once in awhile wobbling will help push a close set over the edge, but people pulling off amazing clutch combos often result in the same thing.

 

[S l o X]

compromise sounds dumb.
let TOs determine things for themselves, they aren't idiots.
alukard / EC bans wobbling, which i'm fine with.
i'm learning ICs if wobbling becomes unbanned.

 

[pockyD]

yeah cmon

it's not like it's an influx of *shudder* kirby players

maybe having fewer newb fox mains would do the community some good

interestingly (i use this term loosely), since you can't wobble much in IC dittos, the problem could largely be self-correcting as newbs are unable to easily get a hand up on their counterparts using it

 

[SmashMac]

This point implies that these same scrubs wouldn't try using ICs at a high level, and wouldn't get their ***** kicked by a good fox, falco, falcon, marth, or jiggz (which would happen in today's metagame). They'd soon see from experience that the ICs, despite their strong grab game, are completely inferior to today's top characters, such as fox, jiggz, falco, sheik, marth, falcon, etc. Thus, your whole point that "more scrubs would use ICs because of Wobbles vids thus the metagame changes" is absolute trash.



No it wouldn't. You just said:



So even if they could wobble their high tournament placement would be because they were great players with a strong (not great) character. Thanks for refuting your own point.

And, even IF wobbling significantly boosted the ICs' results, then how is that a bad thing? What's wrong with variety at the highest level? What's wrong with a few ICs mixing in with the top 20 at a tournament? Variety and balance at the highest level is GOOD for a competitive scene. Even with wobbling, ICs still aren't even that good of a character anyway.

By saying "set their skill-level off" that's saying it will make them do better it's not refuting anything referring to their overall skill level. You could be an amazing player and still learn how to wobble and get better because of it. You mentioned earlier "fox, falco, falcon, marth, or jiggz". Funny you mentioned Jiggs. Jiggs was once lower than Doctor Mario on the tier list because of recent players like MaNg0 and HungryBox spawning out of almost no where. I wonder how that happened. This may be pure speculation, but perhaps The King and all his DBR videos influenced more than we thought? Do you remember Jiggs' Wall of Pain? I saw The Kings DBR vids and saw how good Wall of Pain was for the first time. Point is everyone is influenced at one point or another, and that is what will determine the future of Smash Melee.

 

[SDC]

By saying "set their skill-level off" that's saying it will make them do better it's not refuting anything referring to their overall skill level. You could be an amazing player and still learn how to wobble and get better because of it. You mentioned earlier "fox, falco, falcon, marth, or jiggz". Funny you mentioned Jiggs. Jiggs was once lower than Doctor Mario on the tier list because of recent players like MaNg0 and HungryBox spawning out of almost no where. I wonder how that happened. This may be pure speculation, but perhaps The King and all his DBR videos influenced more than we thought? Point is everyone is influenced at one point or another, and that is what will determine the future of Smash Melee.

Lmao

Comparing Jiggz and ICs is just hilarious. Even if King influenced Mango and Darc, and Mango influenced Hbox, that doesn't change the fact that Jiggz IS a great character, debatably top tier.
ICs however, is NOT a good character. I don't care how many scrubs watch Wobbles vids, it's not gonna change the fact that when they do go to tournaments, they're gonna get ***** by jiggz, fox, falcon, and marth.

EDIT:

And, even if for some reason that with wobbling the ICs are suddenly good, and are somehow discovered to possess abilities that are currently unknown (lol), and do rise in the tier list, then how is that a bad thing???? If anything, the tier list will then better represent the reality of the metagame.

Here's what I say to you, even if your point is true:

More balance in the metagame is a GOOD thing.

tl;dr: Make wobbling legal. Bring it on. Only good things can come from it.

 

[Nintendude]

ICs will only become top tier with a major innovation in strategy, not because they can kill off of their grabs more consistently.

So what if an ICs player instantly becomes a little better by learning wobbling and using it? It's no different than if that player simply picked up and learned a better character. Obviously the time investment is much different there, but learning a better character would have a much more significant effect than learning how to wobble.

 

[SmashMac]

Lmao

Comparing Jiggz and ICs is just hilarious. Even if King influenced Mango and Darc and Mango influenced Hbox, that doesn't change the fact that Jiggz IS a great character, debatably top tier.
ICs however, is NOT a good character. I don't care how many scrubs watch Wobbles vids, it's not gonna change the fact that when they do go to tournaments, they're gonna get ***** by jiggz, fox, falcon, and marth.

EDIT:

And, even if for some reason that with wobbling the ICs are suddenly good, and are somehow discovered to possess abilities that are currently unknown (lol), and do rise in the tier list, then how is that a bad thing???? If anything, the tier list will then better represent the reality of the metagame.

Here's what I say to you, even if your point is true:

More balance in the metagame is a GOOD thing.

Jiggs came out of left-field, once TheKing/MaNg0/HBox/Darc picked him up.

I never said it was a bad thing. Even if it is a good thing that the meta-game receives more balance (lol wobbling is balanced), it still doesn't change the fact that the game will change competitively as a result of people trying to figure out a way to beat IC's wobbling, whether switching characters or play-styles. So I say to all of you even if your points are true:

More balance in the metagame is a GOOD thing if it doesn't inadvertently destroy the game's game-play at a competitive level.

 

[Wobbles]

If you learn a new skill, why is it surprising that integrating it into your game?

SmashMac, you seem genuinely concerned that. There was a time back when we had a LARGER number of people playing this game, we were still drawing new people in, and this was BEFORE the infinite had any kind of widespread ban. Surge of IC players? No. Sudden drastic upsets in tournaments? Unless you count *me* beating a few people here and there, then that didn't happen either. What you're worried about happening had a ripe opportunity to happen, and it *didn't.*

Nobody likes the ICs. The only reason our forum is so active is because we have 12 people with nothing better to do constantly posting there. POE3, wobbling legal, had the largest collection of IC players since Genesis. That's right, we had the overwhelming, riot-inducing total of... 4, maybe 5 IC players there. And go figure, there were individual pools that had nothing but Fox/Falco players.

There are NO players who pick up ICs just so they can infinite, and the ones that do are weeded out pretty **** quickly once they realize they are taking a character with a high learning curve and less reward compared to the other high-tiers. There are also no IC players who quit just because they aren't allowed to wobble, myself included.

I honestly cannot believe that your prediction regarding the Smash metagame will ever, ever come true. Ever.

Like, ever.

 

[BigD!!!]

you know, i hadnt really thought about it before, but im starting to lean towards the fact that the ice climbers actually are a pretty good character

theyve had by far the highest ratio of top players to total number of players of any character probably throughout the entire history of melee, and im pretty sure there are more now than there have ever been before so it probably will get higher and higher