Wobbling Compromise

[iamthemicrowave]

^^ epic 420 post

 

[SDC]

Pre-civil war USA, most of the northern states didn't have slaves, but they DID tolerate the southern states having slaves... not too unlike this rule not being relevant fox vs peach but being relevant in ICs vs samus

...and that wasn't even the point I was going for; go back in time through Rome, Egypt, etc; slavery has been around for THOUSANDS of years... seems pretty 'Set in Stone' to me... and it's only been abolished for less than 150 in the USA, ignoring that it still goes on in plenty of places around the world

and once again this is dancing around the fact that the ban on wobbling is far from 'Set in Stone'

In fact, if any thing WAS 'Set in Stone', it was wobbling not being banned up through 2007, including during all the MLG years.

Also, you don't seem to understand that laws and rules are put into place to specifically protect the MINORITY, not the majority. IC players are the minority, and it's unfair (unless proven otherwise) to stomp all over them with a contrived majority vote. Majorities are useless in situations like this when determining 'right' and 'wrong' because 99% of people are merely looking out for their own self-interest (hey I paid a thousand bucks for this slave; why would I let him go?!)

also look up 'unanimous' in the dictionary, i triple dog dare you

I really hope that someone's hacked your account or something, because most of the posts I had read from you before had led me to believe you weren't this narrow-minded

Thanks for that post, if you weren't gonna challenge him on those points I would have lol.

And guys....for heaven's sake....either we can sit here and talk about arbitrary headbutt bans and limitations that NOBODY WILL FOLLOW ANYWAY, or we could just say............legalize it. It's as simple as that. Don't restrict a good tactic that one character has just because you don't like losing to it. Learn how to beat it, learn how to evade and avoid it, learn how to win despite it. Why not just legalize it??? Why not?

 

[Wobbles]

Hmm, that's pretty good yeah. We can base it on percentage done. One blizzard is about equal in damage to two tilts, so we'll say B = 2T, but the jabs decay so strongly to be at about half a percent of damage. That means a tilt equals the damage of four jabs, so 4J = T, and 8J = B. That's moot though because you get two jabs for every headbutt, whereas you get a single headbutt for every blizzard or tilt, so we'll make it be 2J = T just for simplicity's sake since we want to keep things simple.

So jabs are a 1, tilts are a 2, blizzards are a 4, and Blizzards from Dairy Queen are delicious. You are only permitted to have a total of 10 Wobblers during any given grab, so that's 2 and a half blizzards, 5 tilts, 10 jabs, or any variant thereof.

Should we determine values for finishers as well regarding floaties and fastfallers? Obviously floaties find it unfair to be taken out by u-smash because you can KO them with d-throw u-smash as low as 80, whereas characters like Falcon (weighed down by Manliness) will actually die to f-smash sooner. Depends on the level actually, and where you grab them. We won't take d-smash into account here because it's always decayed from spammed wavedash d-smash, and besides that would take too long for the ICs to kill and we don't want to NERF them they're bad enough as is.

So how about we tabulate the KO percentages of un-charged f-smash and u-smash off down-throw and make sure that it's only legal to use the weaker one based on graph of stage location and the character that you've grabbed? We won't take into account f-throw f-smash, u-throw u-smash, u-throw f-smash, or f-throw running u-smash because that's too hard to keep track of. We'll just say that if you're a Peach stuck on square E7 of Pokemon Stadium at 80 percent, the IC is forced to use d-throw f-smash because otherwise you might die. If you're ABOVE 80 percent though you deserve it, and if you DI wrong and get yourself KO'ed off the side as a result then you also deserve it.

We can make a chart. I love charts.

STDConsidine: What about my charts?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'll manage the spreadsheet!

 

[SDC]

STDConsidine: What about my charts?

Wobbles, you're awesome, but honestly that's all just a bunch of arbitrary nonsense that nobody will want to follow anyway. It's like giving a cripple new robotic super legs and saying "now you can't run in these, you'll make all the normal people feel bad, just, limit yourself to five strides per 10 seconds". It's irrational, pointless, and just plain wrong.

Just...legalize it, is it really that hard?????

 

[Ballistics]

It's okay, we can just ban the use of more than 5 HEADBUTTS since that takes into account iterations of the tilt-based infinite, the blizzard-based infinite, and the jab-based infinite.

I'm helping.

I like this.

what if we keep track of each move that is done in grab and assign each one a value, then when the aggregate sum of the values of the moves performed during that grab crosses a predetermined threshold, then that's when the rule has been broken

I like this even more. You sound like a computer programmer =P Let me hear some of the example values you would have.

Thanks for that post, if you weren't gonna challenge him on those points I would have lol.

And guys....for heaven's sake....either we can sit here and talk about arbitrary headbutt bans and limitations that NOBODY WILL FOLLOW ANYWAY, or we could just say............legalize it. It's as simple as that. Don't restrict a good tactic that one character has just because you don't like losing to it. Learn how to beat it, learn how to evade and avoid it, learn how to win despite it. Why not just legalize it??? Why not?

Yea that makes the most sense but I think we should consider everyone.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol@std = sean the don

also last few posts= so much win.

 

[Ballistics]

Hmm, that's pretty good yeah. We can base it on percentage done. One blizzard is about equal in damage to two tilts, so we'll say B = 2T, but the jabs decay so strongly to be at about half a percent of damage. That means a tilt equals the damage of four jabs, so 4J = T, and 8J = B. That's moot though because you get two jabs for every headbutt, whereas you get a single headbutt for every blizzard or tilt, so we'll make it be 2J = T just for simplicity's sake since we want to keep things simple.

So jabs are a 1, tilts are a 2, blizzards are a 4, and Blizzards from Dairy Queen are delicious. You are only permitted to have a total of 10 Wobblers during any given grab, so that's 2 and a half blizzards, 5 tilts, 10 jabs, or any variant thereof.

Should we determine values for finishers as well regarding floaties and fastfallers? Obviously floaties find it unfair to be taken out by u-smash because you can KO them with d-throw u-smash as low as 80, whereas characters like Falcon (weighed down by Manliness) will actually die to f-smash sooner. Depends on the level actually, and where you grab them. We won't take d-smash into account here because it's always decayed from spammed wavedash d-smash, and besides that would take too long for the ICs to kill and we don't want to NERF them they're bad enough as is.

So how about we tabulate the KO percentages of un-charged f-smash and u-smash off down-throw and make sure that it's only legal to use the weaker one based on graph of stage location and the character that you've grabbed? We won't take into account f-throw f-smash, u-throw u-smash, u-throw f-smash, or f-throw running u-smash because that's too hard to keep track of. We'll just say that if you're a Peach stuck on square E7 of Pokemon Stadium at 80 percent, the IC is forced to use d-throw f-smash because otherwise you might die. If you're ABOVE 80 percent though you deserve it, and if you DI wrong and get yourself KO'ed off the side as a result then you also deserve it.

We can make a chart. I love charts.

STDConsidine: What about my charts?

This formula does make sense but I'm realizing that its going to be so hard to follow. What if the compromise were just that you cant repeat the same move over and over, you have to vary the infinite.

 

[john!]

This is the best thread in a long time.

 

[SDC]

Wobbles, you're awesome, but honestly that's all just a bunch of arbitrary nonsense that nobody will want to follow anyway. It's like giving a cripple new robotic super legs and saying "now you can't run in these, you'll make all the normal people feel bad, just, limit yourself to five strides per 10 seconds". It's irrational, pointless, and just plain wrong.

Just...legalize it, is it really that hard?????

I'd like somebody to respond to that post please, lol I don't want that one going unnoticed.

 

[Winston]

sean, have you considered that wobbles and pocky are obviously joking?

 

[pockyD]

we should actually dynamically alter the values assigned to each move as they are used... as they are used, their value increases so that the user needs to switch to a different move to demonstrate that he is indeed able to adjust to the situation at hand

 

[KAOSTAR]

wobbling just got so tight.

what about the time variant that also increases the values of each move depending on the duration of the infinite. thats to protect stalling.

 

[SDC]

sean, have you considered that wobbles and pocky are obviously joking?

No, I had not. I was taking this crud way too seriously lol.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I propose that we resurrect Potter Stewart and have him act as a referee to determine if an ICs player is wobbling.

 

[Pengie]

This formula does make sense but I'm realizing that its going to be so hard to follow. What if the compromise were just that you cant repeat the same move over and over, you have to vary the infinite.

Hahahahahahaha that's what Wobbles d getting at. Why bother with some complicated compromise that only serves to further complicate the rules when we could just allow wobbling instead of jumping through hoops to ban something that isn't even broken in the first place.

PS: if wobbling is ever banned officialy we can kiss any hopes of ever getting involved with Evo.

 

[Wobbles]

Pocky: Good work. This is about skill after all!

So okay. We'll change the formula. You cannot exceed 100 Wobblers at any given time. Each move sits at 0 Wobblers base value, and with each sequential repetition it goes up by a value of 20, and with each execution of a DIFFERENT move goes down by 10. So that means if you do an f-tilt it's still at zero. Your Wobbler meter--so to speak--goes down by 10 with every 5 headbutts.

This means that if you continue to do the same move, you will soon max out your Wobbler meter and officially be Wobbling, which is banned. If you stay beneath the determined 100 though--easily achieved by mixing up your moves and ensuring you don't build too many sequential point values for each one--then you will just be doing a normal grab combo.

D-tilts and f-tilts will be treated as different moves for purposes of this very fair and reasonable compromise because switching to each one involves a risk of accidental smashing, throwing or dash-attacking, thereby testing the ICs ability as you switch between them, which is what matters here.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

wobbles and pockys formulas will ensure that this game will be played with much more skill then if wobbling was simply just allowed.

 

[SDC]

wobbles and pockys formulas will ensure that this game will be played with much more skill then if wobbling was simply just allowed.

Yeah, I think they're obviously joking just to make a point. Had me goin. lulz

 

[Ballistics]

I hope theyre serious cause thats actually a good idea

 

[Dark Hart]

Legal: Banning Wobbling is like banning shine-spiking. People just hate watching themselves be able to do nothing for 200%, how's that different from watching yourself die at 0%?

 

[Pengie]

I hope theyre serious cause thats actually a good idea

I don't see how making rules that are overly confusing do anything else other thancompletely confusing newer players.

 

[mastermoo420]

I think only the Blobble should be allowed. Not only is it harder to do but because the blizzard is like PEWWWWWWWWWWWWW it takes less time for it to go by or at least feels like less time so the other people will be happier. Well, as happy as they can get while being kept in grab-stun-lock-hit stuff.

 

[SDC]

I hope theyre serious cause thats actually a good idea

No, they're not serious because It's NOT a good idea. lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

It just illustrates how ridiculous this whole affair is that something like that could be taken seriously.

 

[SDC]

Ok, here's the deal. Pretty much every anti-wobbling argument boils down to "it's cheap and gay and I don't like it". That's no reason for banning something. As a jiggz/mewtwo/ganon user, I hate it when fox upsmashes/shinespikes me. I think fox's upsmash/shinespike is really gay, and cheap, and I don't really like it. Am I going to try to ban it? Hell no, it's part of the game, and I deal with it accordingly. Howabout when I upthrow rest a spacie user? They hate that, they think that rest is cheap, gay, and they hate it, blablabla. Are they gonna try to get it banned? No, because they realize that it's part of the game, and instead of whining about it they should learn how to beat it.

Same with wobbling. It doesn't matter if you think it's gay, or cheap, of if you don't even like it. Too bad, it's part of the **** character, get used to it. Learn how to beat it.

EDIT: It's like explaining to a scrub that his shield isn't some impenetrable wall of scrub protection. You shield poke them, and they go "what I was shielding that's gay". I used to do this myself. Sooner or later I learned that I can't just stand there holding R all day long. Shield pressure/pokes are part of the game, and you just have to learn to deal with it. Same with wobbling, it's part of the **** character, and I don't care how much you hate it, you just gotta get used to it.

 

[Winston]

I think only the Blobble should be allowed. Not only is it harder to do but because the blizzard is like PEWWWWWWWWWWWWW it takes less time for it to go by or at least feels like less time so the other people will be happier. Well, as happy as they can get while being kept in grab-stun-lock-hit stuff.

Blobbling raaaa aaaapes

- it has an AWESOME name
- I'm sure it looks way cooler (har har) than vanilla wobbling
- it's apparently way harder to do so the "omg you just press A and win" people are happier

Blobbling is the cheap broken gay infinite of the future

In all seriousness, if you seriously believed that Wobbling shouldn't be allowed before then this shouldn't change your opinion.

I really hope it becomes the compromise though because I looove the name "blobble"

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I hope theyre serious cause thats actually a good idea

what? they are obviously serious, and it is just as obvious that it will smash more skillful for the ic player. ic players obviously need that handicap because landing grabs and keeping nana synched and alive is just way to easy as is.

 

[SDC]

what? they are obviously serious, and it is just as obvious that it will smash more skillful for the ic player. ic players obviously need that handicap because landing grabs and keeping nana synched and alive is just way to easy as is.

...I honestly don't know what's going on right now....Am I the only one taking this thread seriously anymore?

Should I stop doing so lol?

 

[Ballistics]

I think the blizzard infinite is huge because its not a wobble so even if wobbling is banned you can still blizzard infinite legally. Its not like an agreed upon compromise its just a natural loophole. The ban is not on infinites its just on the wobble.

Sean yes it should just be legal I think most people agree on that, but we are trying to figure out a way to bypass the rule or strike a compromise deal in the event that it really is banned.

I'm curious to hear Alex Strife's opinion about all this or some more TOs

 

[Wobbles]

What have I done?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

what have i done?

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE KAIBA?!

I remember trying this infinite when I played ICs. I think I could kinda do it at some point LOL.

 

[pockyD]

well it's a foregone conclusion that if they ban wobbling, they would also ban any wobble-esque infinites

it's really still part of the same debate

 

[SDC]

People.....just....legalize it. Really, just.....legalize it. That would solve this whole stupid thread....dam

 

[SmashMac]

Pre-civil war USA, most of the northern states didn't have slaves, but they DID tolerate the southern states having slaves... not too unlike this rule not being relevant fox vs peach but being relevant in ICs vs samus

...and that wasn't even the point I was going for; go back in time through Rome, Egypt, etc; slavery has been around for THOUSANDS of years... seems pretty 'Set in Stone' to me... and it's only been abolished for less than 150 in the USA, ignoring that it still goes on in plenty of places around the world

and once again this is dancing around the fact that the ban on wobbling is far from 'Set in Stone'

In fact, if any thing WAS 'Set in Stone', it was wobbling not being banned up through 2007, including during all the MLG years.

Also, you don't seem to understand that laws and rules are put into place to specifically protect the MINORITY, not the majority. IC players are the minority, and it's unfair (unless proven otherwise) to stomp all over them with a contrived majority vote. Majorities are useless in situations like this when determining 'right' and 'wrong' because 99% of people are merely looking out for their own self-interest (hey I paid a thousand bucks for this slave; why would I let him go?!)

also look up 'unanimous' in the dictionary, i triple dog dare you

I really hope that someone's hacked your account or something, because most of the posts I had read from you before had led me to believe you weren't this narrow-minded

First off, perhaps you could have clarified your point to begin with as opposed to seemingly, whether consciously or subconsciously, mocking me with your first post 'set in stone'.

Secondly, I did mention in the possibility of all tournaments that if wobbling wasn't banned it had strong restrictions, such as the up to 200% restriction per stock.

Also, I do understand the minority laws and rules put into place. However that doesn't change them from being the minority. It just protects their rights as well. I don't see nor understand how in a controversial subject such as this one a majority vote won't conclude it. I see your argument with self-interest being valid, but if everyone looked out for themselves, normal people would be robbing stores every day and every cop out there would be dead or severely handicapped. So to a certain point that has to be limited, much like even though an IC player would be looking out for his/her self-interest with wobbling, it would have to be limited never-the-less (in tournaments that it wasn't banned it has been limited).

Yes, I know what unanimous means. Probably could have chosen a better word that would've fit the context better for what I was trying to say though.

And lastly no, this is the same SmashMac. I disagree with wobbling for a variety of reasons. Not just me, but almost 90% of all the smashers I've ever trained with agreed with me.

 

[SDC]

I disagree with wobbling for a variety of reasons

Let's hear em. I guarantee they all boil down to "it's gay and I don't like it".

 

[Ballistics]

well it's a foregone conclusion that if they ban wobbling, they would also ban any wobble-esque infinites

it's really still part of the same debate

If it is a foregone conclusion I don't think it should be. Wobbling is a clearly defined technique using only a and the control stick.

This Magus infinite uses a b and the control stick in varied timings. Much different in my opinion. Wobbling is the move that is banned not all infinites. If that were the case, then the shine infinite would be banned.

 

[SmashMac]

Let's hear em. I guarantee they all boil down to "it's gay and I don't like it".

- I said "of all skill ranges" which implies good players as well.
- The term "good smashers" is shifty and hard to define. There are many mediocre players that have excellent reasoning skills.
- Over twice as many people are pro-wobbling than anti-wobbling. Why should the ratio among "good players" be so different?
- IC players are a small minority. You really think they've affected the statistics that much?
- Saying all IC players are bad without wobbling is a massive generalization. Actually, it's just not true, at all.
- Even if the majority of good smashers did oppose wobbling, they'd have to provide a good reason for its ban. Nobody has done that yet. Maybe you could take a stab at it?

Assume that my version of good smasher then is a person near, or, at least at semi-professional level.

Here's my stab at providing a good reason for it's ban (or at least staying severely restricted):

I just learned how to wobble in 2 days. Now, despite your rank/ability/knowledge (match-ups, mind-games, etc.), once I grab you, you should just put down your controller until the next stock. Basically just camp me if you want to win (if you can), and if you play a character that can't camp well, good luck trying to beat me. Since now you're forced to approach me and most likely I'll grab you.

If Wobbling were always allowed with no restrictions, with the right mindset, good IC players that were once mediocre smashers in general would now be pushing for top 5 in the nation. There would be no way to beat them unless you switched to a character just for ICs that could decently camp them (Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc.). Match-up-charts would be screwed up, people would default an ICs as a secondary in tournaments because of wobbling trix, and other people who once played the characters they loved would have to switch to god-tier just to have a chance at beating the IC player.

Not to mention the fact that Smash Melee would slowly turn into a hit-run traditional fighter game, taking it's infamous pro-level game-play uniqueness and throwing it aside.

This really has nothing to do with me. It's things like Wobbling that question my faith in Smash Melee staying alive. If you guys want Smash Melee to get less respect than it already has, then by all means, lets approve of Wobbling.

 

[CloneHat]

I see what you're trying to say, but it wouldn't change matchups, seeing as ICs already get most of their damage and kills from grabs.

 

[SmashMac]

If it is a foregone conclusion I don't think it should be. Wobbling is a clearly defined technique using only a and the control stick.

This Magus infinite uses a b and the control stick in varied timings. Much different in my opinion. Wobbling is the move that is banned not all infinites. If that were the case, then the shine infinite would be banned.

Ballistics, shine infinites are able to be Smash-DI'd/DI'd. Once you're grabbed with Wobbling, you're dead. There is no skill/move/DI or function to get out. If performed perfectly, you're fcked.