Wobbling Compromise

[KirbyKaze]

Walls were banned more because of camping iirc.

 

[SheerMadness]

This whole thing seems pretty simple to me.

If you don't like wobbling either host your own tourneys and ban it or don't go to tourneys where wobbling is legal. If you do just hope you don't play an IC that wobbles.

If you like wobbling either host your own tourneys that legalize it or go to tourneys that do.

I don't even think wobbling is an issue in most areas of the country since there aren't many Ice Climbers out there. I mean I've been playing competitive smash in FL for like 5 years and have never been wobbled once. Nor do I even know/care if it's legal in any of the FL tourneys I go to cause nobody ever wobbles in FL.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Besides very local locals (mostly because of one t.o.), wobbling is usually banned in my region. I never really cared because I'm fine with using other grab combos, but I kinda care now because I wanna blizzobble *****es.

 

[Ballistics]

boy am i glad to get credit for this one

lol my bad man I didn't think you were joking, i took it off

 

[Ballistics]

Let's put wobbling in a TO/host perspective. since they will be the final word on whether it is legal or not.

Pro:
Wobbles and Chu have a higher possibility come to your tourney
You get to a see Ics played at there full potential (iffy reason)
Because you get to see ICs play at full potential the competition will be fierce ?
You want your tournament to showcase who is the best Melee player because the best players will be above wobbling because they won't get grabbed enough to swing a set.(Mango vs Wobbles)

Cons:
Some Boring matches
Turning off the aesthetic appeal of Melee to new aspiring players
It can be used to stall the match

Now these pros and cons can be said about stalling right?
The reason ufc is successful now is because they legitimized fighting with rules etc. What's to say banning wobbling is not the same as banning eye gouging or groin shots? Isn't that in the discretion of the TO?

If anything Wobbling being legal is motivation to be good enough to not making wobbling a winning factor.

Now with that said, Smashmac brought up a good point. wobbling is very different from the tactics used in melee. It's inescapable past like 10 percent right? It's not consistent with the other abused tactics in melee such as Camping, chain throws, edge hogging. these a person has multiple opportunities to escape with good decision making. I'm not saying wobbling is wrong, its just very different and this difference could be enough to warrant a TO
to ban it considering wobbling in nature is not as forgiving as mainstream tactics. Like hitting someone in the back of the head in UFC. Whether the reason to ban it is aesthetic or to remove inconsistency in results because of this powerful strat. both are good enough reasons for the tourny host to ban it. Frankly because it's what he perceives to be most beneficial to his tournament.

Great points Bob, where do you stand on this issue though?

 

[KAOSTAR]

But one uses the B button and is allegedly hard to do. So that removes the argument of "Wobbling is dumb, it's just AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA you die". By using Blobbling, it's like "AABAABAABAABAABAABAABAAB you die but I need to do it with precise timing because there's exact input windows".

old news is old. I said that two pages ago.

either way I still agree. we need to see what the scrub anti wobble crew thinks about the new infinites legality. something tells me they will poke more holes in their argument. lmao

 

[Bob Money]

I'm not going to act like a martyr for "no holds barred raw smash".

I'm simply against it because I don't play Ice climbers. As narrow minded as that sounds, I want to increase my chances of winning with a character I have tons of fun playing.

Also I just think wobbling(not grabbing) is such a unique tactic that isn't like anything in the game in terms of push vs pull. It's dominated by one players ability. Unlike Cgrabs. what in this game is reliant on one player? the question is not if its honorable etc.or makes you a bad player. The question is , is wobbling what we want to see and "play" against?
I would answer no.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm not going to act like a martyr for "no holds barred raw smash".

I'm simply against it because I don't play Ice climbers. As narrow minded as that sounds, I want to increase my chances of winning with a character I have tons of fun playing.

Also I just think wobbling(not grabbing) is such a unique tactic that isn't like anything in the game in terms of push vs pull. It's dominated by one players ability. Unlike Cgrabs. what in this game is reliant on one player? the question is not if its honorable etc.or makes you a bad player. The question is , is wobbling what we want to see and "play" against?
I would answer no.

I like your honesty.

but so what. you don't have to watch every match. they can't all be fun to watch.

 

[EPsilon933]

I like your honesty.

but so what. you don't have to watch every match. they can't all be fun to watch.

You forgot the play part. I used to get wobbled by this one player (before he quit Ice Climbers) who always wobbled on every opportunity. At first I thought it was a little bit dumb, but once you accept something for what it is, you start to enjoy it. At least when an Ice Climber tries to kill you at low(er) %'s, you can try to guess down/forward/up smash and Smash DI accordingly. I've survived a few of his wobbles before he started going higher before kills.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Walls were banned more because of camping iirc.

Didn't the banning of onett have something to do with kdj and the infinite?

 

[Bob Money]

You forgot the play part. I used to get wobbled by this one player (before he quit Ice Climbers) who always wobbled on every opportunity. At first I thought it was a little bit dumb, but once you accept something for what it is, you start to enjoy it. At least when an Ice Climber tries to kill you at low(er) %'s, you can try to guess down/forward/up smash and Smash DI accordingly. I've survived a few of his wobbles before he started going higher before kills.

What is it? An infinite ?
it's odd though, magneto and ironman infinite combos in Mvc2 are arguably easier to set up than wobbling...but it's legal. hmmmmmm

 

[Wobbles]

Oh, and Ballistics, I was ALSO joking and I don't want you to take the 5 headbutt thing seriously.

If it's broken or degenerate, ban it. If it isn't, don't. We have anti-stalling as a rule, so once the opponent's KO is guaranteed (~150% at most on any level but Dreamland, unless you're waiting for the cliff or tree on Pokemon to go away) then you can legitly call it stalling and make the player stop.

Since we've established NOT broken--doesn't dominate any of the other characters--and NOT degenerate--viable and successful tournament play is centered largely around other strategies and characters--then... well, by my criteria there is no meritable ban.

You also need a good, concrete way to ban the technique and then enforce the ban. The jab-cancel and blizzard variant throw more wrenches into the ability to do so and it serves to further complicate the ruleset.

I am in favor of zero compromise period.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

what you want to see and what you want to play against is irrelevant to the issue

it's not healthy for the metagame if we just ban things we don't wanna play against

plus it's ****ing scrubby as hell

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think he was joking, I didn't get it until after my post but yea.

 

[Ballistics]

Hey I don't mean to bother Uber Ice again but here's a guy that could wobble but chooses not to. I asked him once why he didn't wobble linguini to win a tournament. He said that he knows linguini well, and didn't want to disrespect him.

Thats a B.A. right there. While I do find this sentiment honorable, it irks me to know that U.I. isn't playing at his full god given potential in the interest of acceptance. If he got 5th at CEO without wobbling, imagine what he could've got had he taken the full advantage of the infinites.

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea thats crazy. its pretty bad ***.

just in case ppl try to use that as a legit argument:

its not

IC aren't top characters

you cannot imagine/speculate for legitimate evidence

not doing it doesn't necessarily mean he did significantly worse.

he has to do REALLY well with it and prove its broken. that probably means ****** alot of top players and winning some tourneys. he should also do it by pretty much wobbling alone.

 

[PEEF!]

If he got 5th at CEO without wobbling, imagine what he could've got had he taken the full advantage of the infinites.

5th. He couldn't have beat ColBol, PP, or Hbox.

 

[PEEF!]

@BigD saying that there are a large number of top level ICs...

Wobbles, Chu, Fly, Trail, Uberice.

That's it.

There are many people that tried to play ICs but just switched to a better character.

One day, I will be great =DD

But having just played against Vro who has tons of IC experience...this character is not that good.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

banning wobbling while allowing the new blizzard infinite is ****ing ********. the only difference is that one is harder to do then the other. something being easy to do is the dumbest *** reason to ban something ever. how about we ban sheiks combos because they are easy to perform but allow cfs combos because theyre much harder? would that make sense? would that be fair?

and for *******: im NOT saying that wobbling or that the blizzard infinite should be banned. im saying the OPPOSITE.

 

[EPsilon933]

[incorrect arguments]

Lack of difficulty isn't the main reason people want it banned. It's lack of entertainment.

 

[mastermoo420]

[incorrect arguments]

Plus, LCG is allowed because it's harder.

 

[EPsilon933]

Plus, LCG is allowed because it's harder.

And it looks mad awesome.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

because something not looking cool is obviously a warrant for a ban. silly me!

Plus, LCG is allowed because it's harder.

i addressed that in my post and made fun of that stupid logic. lets ban sheiks combos because theyre easy!

Lack of difficulty isn't the main reason people want it banned. It's lack of entertainment.

i think gimps and chaingrabs lack entertainment. lets ban those!

 

[EPsilon933]

because something not looking cool is obviously a warrant for a ban. silly me!

i know and i addressed that in my post and made fun of that stupid logic. lets ban sheiks combos because theyre easy!


i think gimps and chaingrabs lack entertainment. lets ban those!

But gimps are dynamic, which are fun. Something static can never be fun, so it's always banworthy. Wobbling is static.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

chaingrabs are static. BAN IT!
also what is entertaining and what is not is a matter of opinion and therefore not any kind of warrant for a ban. i think edgehogs are unentertaining. BAN IT!

 

[EPsilon933]

chaingrabs are static. BAN IT!
also what is entertaining and what is not is a matter of opinion and therefore not any kind of warrant for a ban. i think edgehogs are unentertaining. BAN IT!

No, they are not. The chain grabs change as percents change. What is entertaining and what is not is mainly a matter of psychology, not mainly opinion. Edgehogging opens up more strategy and makes the game more dynamic. It's not banworthy.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

many chaingrabs can from 1 grab->finishing move->easy edgeguard. that is not dynamic or fun to watch.
also the new infinite isnt dynamic or fun to watch. why leave that unbanned but have wobbling banned?

also something not being fun to watch still isnt a reason to ban something.

youre a scrub kthnxbai

 

[EPsilon933]

many chaingrabs can from 1 grab->finishing move->easy edgeguard. that is not dynamic or fun to watch.
also the new infinite isnt dynamic or fun to watch. why leave that unbanned but have wobbling banned?

also something not being fun to watch still isnt a reason to ban something.

youre a scrub kthnxbai

You're still incorrect. Not all chain throws lead to high damage, near kill move, edgeguard. Also, you can DI the throws and hits in chain throws to choose your poison. That's dynamic. Dynamic is always fun to watch. It's human psychology.

Ok, let's ban wobbling, blobbling, and jabcancelobbling. The whole package.

Yes it is. Ask a good player like Lovage.

Your last point is still incorrect. I'm presenting counter points in an organized manner with evidence and you're the one making claims with no evidence.

 

[mastermoo420]

The new infinite is cool to watch because it's not like wobbling where all it was was tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick but now it's PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWw-tick-PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww-tick-PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[EPsilon933]

The new infinite is cool to watch because it's not like wobbling where all it was was tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick but now it's PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWw-tick-PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww-tick-PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I like your pun.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Plus, LCG is allowed because it's harder.

LCG is allowed because it's situational. It has all the requirements of wobbling, but the synched grab also has to be right next to a ledge.

 

[Ballistics]

5th. He couldn't have beat ColBol, PP, or Hbox.

I see what you are trying to say here that the infinites don't matter. But I think that they do, and I think it is irresponsible to say that he would've placed the same, had he used them. If only for the mere fact that jpuff has no legit infinites other than the wobble and BLIZZOBBLE.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

You're still incorrect. Not all chain throws lead to high damage, near kill move, edgeguard. Also, you can DI the throws and hits in chain throws to choose your poison. That's dynamic. Dynamic is always fun to watch. It's human psychology.

Ok, let's ban wobbling, blobbling, and jabcancelobbling. The whole package.

Yes it is. Ask a good player like Lovage.

Your last point is still incorrect. I'm presenting counter points in an organized manner with evidence and you're the one making claims with no evidence.

i guess wobbles sucks then oh shucks
and indeed youre the one winning the argument when i just made you back down on your argument and change it to keep up =D (see the bolded part)

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lack of difficulty isn't the main reason people want it banned. It's lack of entertainment.

alot of people said the learning curve was too low.

imo thats a better ****ty argument than its boring.

 

[smakis]

blizzobbling looks pretty entertaining to me, (sparkling blue colors oooo) and it being so much harder makes it even more entertaining

kinda like the handoff

 

[Roneblaster]

just to clear up some misconceptions:

wobbling should be banned

IC's are a good character

 

[EPsilon933]

alot of people said the learning curve was too low.

imo thats a better ****ty argument than its boring.

If players see the same repetitive, stuck in place infinite, people will get bored and play a real manly game.

Ok, but for serious, I'm on the make wobbling legal side. Wobbling isn't that boring, but to some players, it is by an extreme degree. I'm all for promoting character variety because there's an old phrase that goes like "variety is the spice of life." Shure wobbling may be boring, but everything else they offer adds a very unique appeal to the metagame. Wobbling isn't even that boring anyways. What annoys me is when people try to make this game as absolutely fun as possible, but no matter how you play it, Melee can never be not fun. "The only way I know how to make Melee not fun is to take the disk out of the system." ihavespaceballs

 

[t3h Icy]

So if Wobbling is banned is this legal then?

 

[Roneblaster]

this tactic just got discovered. id be inclined to say no ban it, but apparently it is just "sooooooooooooooo hard" to do, so maybe it shouldnt.

 

[Kyu Puff]

just to clear up some misconceptions:

wobbling should be banned

IC's are a good character

If ICs aren't even top tier with wobbling, then them being a good character is completely irrelevant. Not to mention that they have several bad match-ups in which, coincidentally, their grab combos are subpar.

How are they supposed to deal with characters like Peach, against whom they can hardly find any openings, and when they do, can hardly even capitlize? They might be "good" but they are only borderline viable if they still have unwinnable match-ups like this. Wobbling balances their match-ups out, and gives them the potential to actually win tournaments rather than do sort of okay and then lose to Peach/Ganondorf/Marth/etc.

Even then, those match-ups that were nearly unwinnable are still bad. Without wobbling, they aren't comparable to any of the top tier characters. With wobbling, they still aren't really comparable to to the top tier characters. What's wrong with having another viable character with the potential to win major tournaments?