Player-1
Smash Legend
Squirtle needs some CPs =/, I ***** Reflex's Ivysaur and Charizard, but his Squirtle ***** me back =(.
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Counterpicking Made Easy
- Thread starter deepseadiva
- Start date
Final Destination is not a bad Lucas stage at all, in fact, it promotes use of one of our best techniques for killing - dair to dtilt lock.
Though we have better stages - but pulling off this technique is the easiest on Final Destination without platforms. It's also pretty easy for us to manuver there. It's not a bad Lucas stage by any means.
Though we have better stages - but pulling off this technique is the easiest on Final Destination without platforms. It's also pretty easy for us to manuver there. It's not a bad Lucas stage by any means.
Levitas
the moon
FD wrecks us... sometimes.
Lucas doesn't work with the format you have, because his counterpicks vary dramatically based on who he's facing.
Lucas doesn't work with the format you have, because his counterpicks vary dramatically based on who he's facing.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
For Kirby's CPs, I would replace Brinstar with either PS1 (one of the few stages Kirby can camp on effectively, the only stage where we have an infinite, and a whole lot of Uthrow gays.) or PTAD (gimp city, easy to kill, and Starshot into cars is awesome).
Also, Corneria is one of Kirby's worst stages, definitely worse than Pirate Ship.
Also, Corneria is one of Kirby's worst stages, definitely worse than Pirate Ship.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
Who are the tards who suggested the "best stages" for luigi. The only one there that's even arguable is battlefield. But the REAL answer to the question is any stage with a metroid theme. Brinstar, norfair and FO (did I mention BRINSTAR) are far and away his 3 best stages.
Regardless, Final Destination doesnt belong in the same area as Lylat Cruise and Yoshi's Island, which are generic BAD Lucas stages.
If its situational, it shouldnt be on the "counterpicking made easy" list. And you said it yourself "...sometimes."
CR4SH
Smash Lord
Can I get discussion on the luigi stages, or some explanation? Otherwise please change it. It's flat wrong.
OK I'll put some info in just so I at least sound credible.
Brinstar-
Almost certainly luigi's overall best stage.
The best part of this stage is the lava. This has several advantages for luigi. The biggest advantage here is that it forces characters off the floor of the stage and onto the platforms (once every minute or so to the TOP platform). Luigi has several LARGE advantages when fighting on that top platform.
The biggest of these is that you have nowhere to run (except the air, GGS on that game). Luigi has the advantage two places in a fight, the air, and in your face. His jab and kill game are stupid good, but he has to work very hard to get in range for them to be effective.
The next most important part of this is that it brings you VERY close to the top of the stage, where luigi's kills are most effective. Up-B kills mario at 35 ****ing percent on the top platform. And his forward smash kills most of the cast at or below 70%. Long story short, you do NOT want to be on that platform with luigi, and oyu have to get very creative to keep it from happening.
Next benefit of the lava is that it forces people to leave the ground. Any time you're in the air, you're in danger of taking a ton of damage from luigi. At low %s it's not uncommon for luigi to be able to put together a string of attacks up to 50%. It's almost unheard of for luigi to land an aerial at 0% and not be able to string it at least twice.
Lastly Luigi gets gimped very easily, and the lava often saves him from not being able to recover to the stage.
Next is the fact that the floor of the stage is very funky. At points of the stage one is completely unable to roll away from Luigi (or anywhere for that matter). It's very easy to get a character locked into utilts on this part of the stage, leading to anywhere from 20 to 40% damage, possibly more considering it ends with the character being in the air, or in the act of airdodging (IE very punishable).
Also, you can destroy the middle part of the stage, making a ground control style game almost completely unviable.
The platforms also make great stages for luigi attacks. They're good places for luigi to camp, as fireballs actually work fairly well on them. More importantly their height and distance away from the center of the stage make them very dangerous places to be when luigi controls the middle. You're almost sure to eat an aerial if you hesitate on the platforms.
The left and right platforms also make great stages to launch a bair WOP for edgeguarding purposes.
Least important (but still FANTASTIC) for luigi regarding platforms is the snot lines tethering each platform to the stage. These have two distinct and important advantages for luigi. First they keep a character on stage from firing a projectile at a recovering luigi. Second they extend hitboxes for luigi attacks, a recovering opponent will have a hard time timing a fsmash coming from a stage-guarding luigi. Not to mention you can use them to refresh your kill moves.
Luigi+brinstar=<3
If you think brinstar isn't Luigi's best stage I think you're nuts.
Norfair
Either that or you think norfair is.
Lava, check.
Platform abuse, check.
Lack of solid ground control, check.
Protection from gimps, check.
Forced close combat, checkity check check CHECK.
Frigate
Definetly the least solid luigi CP of the three by a significant margin. BF and maybe even corneria, are arguably better stages. However I would argue not.
Frigate is another stage that has a "not flat and boring" main stage most of the time. Change in altitude is almost a requirement for luigi to gain an advantage. Fortunately you can play on this at almost any point in FO (more than BF or corneria IMO). The exception to this is when the right side of the first transformation is even with the stage. At this point I think it's pretty neutral for most people you would take here. The second transformation is much better, I think it's pretty ****ing great actually. The layout is very similar to brinstar, only mini. And this time you can play a pretty good game of stage control. There are very few characters in the game (Pit, MK, possibly snake) that can pressure luigi out of this position. And only a very few more can afford to let luigi stay here. In other words, luigi's fireballs are actually very useful here, and provide quite a bit of pressure. This is a rarity. So luigi can play a game of "I want the center", when he occupies the space, just about nobody wants to occupy it with him, and when he has it to himself he's pretty **** here.
This alone isn't really enough to make it a really great stage for luigi, but because we're counterpicking here, we can be selective as to who we take here. The idea is that there are a few characters whos recovery this stages ****s pretty hard. Peach and DK get lol'd by the stage flip, even marth, link, mario, olimar, ivysaur, zss, gdorf and a few more get screwed by it pretty easily. Luigi has no such problems, even though he's easily gimpable, his recovery range is hilariously good (think rob/pit. Can get back from anywhere, but can be hit to their doom very easily).On top of that the first transformations right side does bad things to a lot of characters, snake most notably. You'll see alot of snakes, and you can win alot of games by simply throwing him off the right side and messing with his recovery.
Anything else?
OK I'll put some info in just so I at least sound credible.
Brinstar-
Almost certainly luigi's overall best stage.
The best part of this stage is the lava. This has several advantages for luigi. The biggest advantage here is that it forces characters off the floor of the stage and onto the platforms (once every minute or so to the TOP platform). Luigi has several LARGE advantages when fighting on that top platform.
The biggest of these is that you have nowhere to run (except the air, GGS on that game). Luigi has the advantage two places in a fight, the air, and in your face. His jab and kill game are stupid good, but he has to work very hard to get in range for them to be effective.
The next most important part of this is that it brings you VERY close to the top of the stage, where luigi's kills are most effective. Up-B kills mario at 35 ****ing percent on the top platform. And his forward smash kills most of the cast at or below 70%. Long story short, you do NOT want to be on that platform with luigi, and oyu have to get very creative to keep it from happening.
Next benefit of the lava is that it forces people to leave the ground. Any time you're in the air, you're in danger of taking a ton of damage from luigi. At low %s it's not uncommon for luigi to be able to put together a string of attacks up to 50%. It's almost unheard of for luigi to land an aerial at 0% and not be able to string it at least twice.
Lastly Luigi gets gimped very easily, and the lava often saves him from not being able to recover to the stage.
Next is the fact that the floor of the stage is very funky. At points of the stage one is completely unable to roll away from Luigi (or anywhere for that matter). It's very easy to get a character locked into utilts on this part of the stage, leading to anywhere from 20 to 40% damage, possibly more considering it ends with the character being in the air, or in the act of airdodging (IE very punishable).
Also, you can destroy the middle part of the stage, making a ground control style game almost completely unviable.
The platforms also make great stages for luigi attacks. They're good places for luigi to camp, as fireballs actually work fairly well on them. More importantly their height and distance away from the center of the stage make them very dangerous places to be when luigi controls the middle. You're almost sure to eat an aerial if you hesitate on the platforms.
The left and right platforms also make great stages to launch a bair WOP for edgeguarding purposes.
Least important (but still FANTASTIC) for luigi regarding platforms is the snot lines tethering each platform to the stage. These have two distinct and important advantages for luigi. First they keep a character on stage from firing a projectile at a recovering luigi. Second they extend hitboxes for luigi attacks, a recovering opponent will have a hard time timing a fsmash coming from a stage-guarding luigi. Not to mention you can use them to refresh your kill moves.
Luigi+brinstar=<3
If you think brinstar isn't Luigi's best stage I think you're nuts.
Norfair
Either that or you think norfair is.
Lava, check.
Platform abuse, check.
Lack of solid ground control, check.
Protection from gimps, check.
Forced close combat, checkity check check CHECK.
Frigate
Definetly the least solid luigi CP of the three by a significant margin. BF and maybe even corneria, are arguably better stages. However I would argue not.
Frigate is another stage that has a "not flat and boring" main stage most of the time. Change in altitude is almost a requirement for luigi to gain an advantage. Fortunately you can play on this at almost any point in FO (more than BF or corneria IMO). The exception to this is when the right side of the first transformation is even with the stage. At this point I think it's pretty neutral for most people you would take here. The second transformation is much better, I think it's pretty ****ing great actually. The layout is very similar to brinstar, only mini. And this time you can play a pretty good game of stage control. There are very few characters in the game (Pit, MK, possibly snake) that can pressure luigi out of this position. And only a very few more can afford to let luigi stay here. In other words, luigi's fireballs are actually very useful here, and provide quite a bit of pressure. This is a rarity. So luigi can play a game of "I want the center", when he occupies the space, just about nobody wants to occupy it with him, and when he has it to himself he's pretty **** here.
This alone isn't really enough to make it a really great stage for luigi, but because we're counterpicking here, we can be selective as to who we take here. The idea is that there are a few characters whos recovery this stages ****s pretty hard. Peach and DK get lol'd by the stage flip, even marth, link, mario, olimar, ivysaur, zss, gdorf and a few more get screwed by it pretty easily. Luigi has no such problems, even though he's easily gimpable, his recovery range is hilariously good (think rob/pit. Can get back from anywhere, but can be hit to their doom very easily).On top of that the first transformations right side does bad things to a lot of characters, snake most notably. You'll see alot of snakes, and you can win alot of games by simply throwing him off the right side and messing with his recovery.
Anything else?
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. I've updated. ^^
CR4SH
Smash Lord
lol hooray, wall of text prevails!
Affinity
Smash Hero
This should be stickied.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Brinstar is among Sonic's worst.
Distant planet is not bad at all for sonic neither is jungle japes.
Distant planet is not bad at all for sonic neither is jungle japes.
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
for meta knight, i believe delfino is better than skyworld
Xiahou Dun
Smash Ace
Ivysaur is definately worse on Port Town Aerodive then on Battlefield. Ivy relies on a tether and it has no grabbable ledges. Ivy always ends up taking lots of damage as bouncing off the floor is the only way to get back onto the stage if your second jump is not high enough and in the sections where there's no floor beneath you Ivy just dies. :/
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Not Jungle Japes? Why not?
Please explain.
Oh, Squirtle has some CPs now! :D
haloman800
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 100
one of mk's worste stages is FD. one of pikachu's best is norfair and should ALWAYS be banned.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i agree that corneria should be replaced with FD for MKs bad stages
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
FD? How does FD affect MK negatively at all?
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
heres a great quote about mk and fd
and plus, green greens and corneria are usually banned in tourneys
ill get some input soon about delfino
EDIT: heres a link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222248
got to the 3rd stage down, i agree wth all their input about delfino being one of meta knights best
AndreVeloso
Smash Apprentice
Wow, a lot either like Jungle Japes or hate it. Good thing Kirby is good at this and Rainbow Cruise. A lot seem to have disadvantages at these.
Affinity
Smash Hero
FD isn't a bad stage for MK, its just his worst.
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
that's true, but when he plays someone thats good with projectiles, or nades
mk has a very hard time winning
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
I think you meant MK has a harder time winning. MK never has a very hard time winning. 
jk
jk
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
FD affects MK negatively by not affecting him positively in anyway
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
There is a common misconception that sonic needs room to run around. Sonic's gameplay involves standing outside the opponents range and then moving in to attack, so he doesn't need alot of room to attack the opponent.
I find that his grab game does a bit better, mainly his D throw because of the down wards trajectory. And with how close the side boundary is, the killing issue is not as great.
Not having a positive=/=having a negative.
Its just neutral for him.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
point is, he has an advantage on every other stage except GG.
he doesnt have any real advantages on FD therefore its one of his worst stages
he doesnt have any real advantages on FD therefore its one of his worst stages
Morrigan
/!\<br>\¡/
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2006
- Messages
- 18,681
Fixed . dsfsfI think you meant MK has a harder time winning. MK never has a very hard time winning.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I'm listing everything Counter-Banned and up. Unless the new list is out already?
I agree with this - I'm just hearing how FD has nothing going for him.
I still see how Corneria could be worse overall.
BTW, Sonic only has 1 CP now. Something besides Brinstar that Sonic does bad on?
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Corneria isn't even a bad MK stage...
His up-b is broken under the fin. No lag what-so-ever due to the instant ledge grab. Then the close sides just make it all that much easier for him to gimp people. I have a match recorded where DSF kills SK92 at like 36% with his up-b.
It's true that his recovery doesn't help much here, but he gets other advantages from this stage that aren't normally there. I know a MK that even CPs this. It is not a bad MK stage.
His up-b is broken under the fin. No lag what-so-ever due to the instant ledge grab. Then the close sides just make it all that much easier for him to gimp people. I have a match recorded where DSF kills SK92 at like 36% with his up-b.
It's true that his recovery doesn't help much here, but he gets other advantages from this stage that aren't normally there. I know a MK that even CPs this. It is not a bad MK stage.
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
i think delfino should replace skyworld
i put my reasons in post (around 10 posts back)
and skyworld is almost always banned anyways
i put my reasons in post (around 10 posts back)
and skyworld is almost always banned anyways
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Agreed .
Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship are not bad for Mr. Game & Watch. The Mr. Game & Watch boards discussed stages at depth actually:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201905
The lowest rating we gave was 4/10 which went to the following stages:
Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar
That's probably too many stages; I suggest removing Castle Siege and Brinstar which will make that list the least controversial to Mr. Game & Watch players (I personally disagree about Luigi's Mansion being bad, but I was alone so you might as well list it).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201905
The lowest rating we gave was 4/10 which went to the following stages:
Final Destination, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar
That's probably too many stages; I suggest removing Castle Siege and Brinstar which will make that list the least controversial to Mr. Game & Watch players (I personally disagree about Luigi's Mansion being bad, but I was alone so you might as well list it).
socandrewcer
Smash Lord
lol i dont know much about link
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I was as surprised as you. But the Link's boards swear they liked it.
Something about defense or something.
There isn't any stage in the game that's actually that detrimental to MK.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Well, not to the level it consciously shoots lasers at him (lol), but Green Greens is REALLY good.