Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Magik0722]

Yeah squirtles withdraw isnt normal invincibility, it doesnt take damage or knockback but can still be grabbed, so it is completely unique to all other kinds of invincibility and faux invincibility type moves

So no its not called super armour since he doesnt take damage as well

 

[smashkng]

The nice thing about IC is that they can practically win every match-up, even if it's hard, because of the infinite. 1 grab = instant advantage.

to the guy above, that's called super armor.

Withdraw hasn't super armor, I knew that name. It's similar to super armor but not even taking damage.

 

[LoganW]

the MK didn't trip though, he used tornado, got predected for it, and got forward smashed.

i know ddd tripped and rolled and then f0smashes and I didn't think it was very cool
Why does this make me a scrub?

 

[SuSa]

Squirtle can also be footstooled out of side-B. Which is very, very bad.

...and hard to do

 

[LoganW]

Squirtle can also be footstooled out of side-B. Which is very, very bad.

...and hard to do

yeah but if it happens it sucks lol
if you just hit squirtle while he does that move he turns around so if he's offstage and he tries to recover with that then hit him and he's dead

 

[saviorslegacy]

Squirtle can also be footstooled out of side-B. Which is very, very bad.

...and hard to do

It is also very very lulz Worthy since he looks freakin hilarious!

 

[Magik0722]

oh yes i forgot about the footstool thing

it rarely happens though but i hate how it takes 7 years for squirtle to get back up afterwards

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mag, you are underestimating Squirtle a fair bit. By himself he would be top of B tier.

He's essentially Wario with less air mobility and a worse grab release while being easier to grab (it takes who know how many grabs to kill Wario at a low %. Squirtle? With the right character about 4.), but gets a trade off in more super armor + weird withdraw armor. ACing aerials are good for spacing, even if they have short range. When combined with a frame 1 jab he can put up a half decent wall of attacks to protect himself.

Water Gun is good for gimping. Not as good as Mario's FLUDD, but still solid.

Of course, with fatigue added in, I'd say he's about Mid-low B...

And people didn't believe me when I said if I saw someone putting PT too low I would argue against it. XD

 

[Luigi player]

If you footstool squirtle offstage during his side B he will fall to his death :/ It's really bad to recovery with it...

 

[smashkng]

Mag, you are underestimating Squirtle a fair bit. By himself he would be top of B tier.

He's essentially Wario with less air mobility and a worse grab release while being easier to grab (it takes who know how many grabs to kill Wario at a low %. Squirtle? With the right character about 4.), but gets a trade off in more super armor + weird withdraw armor. ACing aerials are good for spacing, even if they have short range. When combined with a frame 1 jab he can put up a half decent wall of attacks to protect himself.

Water Gun is good for gimping. Not as good as Mario's FLUDD, but still solid.

Of course, with fatigue added in, I'd say he's about Mid-low B...

And people didn't believe me when I said if I saw someone putting PT too low I would argue against it. XD

About grab releases:
Squirtle is in more danger to get grabbed at low percents by some characters (on FD and SV at least) due some grab release chain grabs finished with a spike by at least Marth and Yoshi and his recovery isn't very good vertically.
Grab release infinites on Wario are usually escapable (except Yoshi) at lower percents because he instead ground breaks during pummel hitstun plus Wario is harder to grab than Squirtle.

 

[Scott!]

Edit: Ignore, wrong thread...

 

[Toby.]

Withdraw hasn't normal invincibility. He doesn't take any damage or knockback from attacks while on it but it instead turns him around and he can still be grabbed.

yes i know. I do main the character

seeing as though i was simply refuting the statement that squirtle has SA whenever he is in his shell, I didn't see the point in going into depth with discussion withdraw. It was enough to say that it wasn't super armour.

 

[Magik0722]

Mag, you are underestimating Squirtle a fair bit. By himself he would be top of B tier.

He's essentially Wario with less air mobility and a worse grab release while being easier to grab (it takes who know how many grabs to kill Wario at a low %. Squirtle? With the right character about 4.), but gets a trade off in more super armor + weird withdraw armor. ACing aerials are good for spacing, even if they have short range. When combined with a frame 1 jab he can put up a half decent wall of attacks to protect himself.

Water Gun is good for gimping. Not as good as Mario's FLUDD, but still solid.

Of course, with fatigue added in, I'd say he's about Mid-low B...

And people didn't believe me when I said if I saw someone putting PT too low I would argue against it. XD

When does he get that super armour though? about mid way through his fmash which sucks since it has alot of startup, withdraw sucks because they can just grab you out of it on reaction. ACing aerials are bad for spacing, because they have short range. Water gun is hardly a gimper, only against really abysmal recoverys such as ganon or link.

 

[Panix]

I Play Snake and IC's

I can see IC's being S tier. but not above snake.
In all reality, snake has 3 bad match-ups. (MK,DDD, oli [debateable i guess]) Which are all within 10 points.
IC's have a huge disadvantage against snake himself, and losing to snake at a huge margin is bad enough because there are so many snake players. Also Loses to MK [debateable], and R.O.B. I also think weegee gives them a problem, but don't quote me on that.

IC's are DEFINTALY high. because he takes out falco, ddd, and is pretty even with MK. But they lose to snake. I'd say top of A list. they are just harder depending on what character you use.

Also, Planking hurts IC's.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Snake is the second best. There shouldn't be a question about that.

Snake does have to predict ALOT to get his hits in, but he gets 2-3 times more the reward than anyone else if he does get them in, and he doesn't always have to predict, he has some decent approach moves (DAC and DA to name a few). He isn't always forced to approach, there are several characters who would have to approach him (grenades are awesome projectiles).

Simply put, Snake does have to predict alot for a S Tier character, but once he gets moves in, he has basically inflicted what, let's say Metaknight would have without having to predict. Above this, Snake has a mediocre recovery, heavy weight, and what you could call 'one of the best' kill moves in the game.

He is the second best.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

When does he get that super armour though? about mid way through his fmash which sucks since it has alot of startup, withdraw sucks because they can just grab you out of it on reaction. ACing aerials are bad for spacing, because they have short range. Water gun is hardly a gimper, only against really abysmal recoverys such as ganon or link.

No ACing aerials are great for spacing. Why do you think we Ike mains use Nair instead of Fair whenever we can? It just happens that most of the time Fair is needed instead. Like I said: ACing -> Jab for spacing. Just cancel after the first jab and hydroplane away.

Water Gun is good for finishing the opponent once you've started sending them to their limit of recovery. Most people won't be gimped by it at like 15% no. But if they have to double jump and then use their recovery special to make it back, Water Gun can screw them over.

SAFs at mid attack is better then no SAFs at all. And the opponent is less likely to try and beat it out with another attack for fear of just hitting the SAF frames.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

The opponent isn't likely to try to beat out Squirtle's fsmash because he can just take a step away and hit Squirtle with a smash during the ending lag

not because of the dumb super armour lol

 

[M@v]

Yeah Link is not the worst. No way in hell. At least he has projectiles and a decent kill move. He's above ganon and falcon for sure, MAYBE jiggs.

 

[solecalibur]

Yeah Link is not the worst. No way in hell. At least he has projectiles and a decent kill move. He's above ganon and falcon for sure, MAYBE jiggs.

Jiggs is to under rated Link if not gannon should be bottom C Falcon has speed and Zelda does not need to be F tier she is ALOT better then what the OP preservers her as

@OP I find it ridiculous you find ZSS over rated you will find one ZSS in the state at best she is massivly underrated and people think you can gimp a ZSS easily

Some of this list seems accurate but at the same time characters like zss and sonic you under rate a ton

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The opponent isn't likely to try to beat out Squirtle's fsmash because he can just take a step away and hit Squirtle with a smash during the ending lag

not because of the dumb super armour lol

Hey, with a smash attack that slow, some people would try to beat it out.

 

[smashkng]

Ganondorf has worse "unwinnable matchups" than Falcon, but Falcon's matchups still are so bad it doesn't matter who's worse. For example Falco CF is 75/25 while Ganon is 90/10. 75/25 is an extremely hard matchup, but 90/10 is even harder. Ganon still has more bad matchups but still all of Falcon's matchups are in the opponent's favour except the arguable "Ganon vs Falcon". Both get ***** by all top tier characters.

So I think Ganon being higher than Falcon isn't unfair, though Falcon being one spot higher is more fair.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So I think Ganon being higher than Falcon isn't unfair.

Harder match-ups aren't "unfair"?

 

[Princz15]

Lol, what? Diddy best in the game? Omg we are having another Wario phase. MetaKnight is still best in the game. Beatable, but still the best. Wario's overrated. I agree that Snake is defiantly not second best 4th seems to be an accurate placement, good job. IMO, Falco should be 3rd not ICs. ICs should be 5th. Diddy loses/goes even with too many characters to be the best.

Well that's my take on it.

 

[smashkng]

Harder match-ups aren't "unfair"?

Ganon is extremely slow, is extremely chaingrabbable, has poor recovery, lacks a projectile, has terrible out of shield moves and can't approach. Sakurai... what a metagame? With so poor stats his extreme power is useless. Falcon has weird aerial hitboxes, poor priority, is extremely chaingrabbable, has mediocre range, lacks a projectile, has mediocre recovery and can't approach. His movement speed and good power is useless. Again, Sakurai has made a terrible metagame due extremely small and without low hitbox moves while those with low hitboxes being poor moves in general.

Ganon isn't much worse than Falcon.

And I don't see difference between 95/5 and 80/20. They are both complete ****.

You have overrated Falco, Princz15. IC is a very bad matchup for Falco and Pikachu also is also pretty bad due 0-100% CG. Falco is light and has a pretty bad recovery: Illusion doesn't give any vertical distance and Fire Bird is horrible.

But Wario is probably 4th behind Diddy.

And Snake will NOT drop while Ally plays Brawl.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon is extremely slow, is extremely chaingrabbable, has poor recovery, lacks a projectile, has terrible out of shield moves and can't approach. Sakurai... what a metagame? With so poor stats his extreme power is useless. Falcon has weird aerial hitboxes, poor priority, is extremely chaingrabbable, has mediocre range, lacks a projectile, has mediocre recovery and can't approach. His movement speed and good power is useless. Again, Sakurai has made a terrible metagame due extremely small and without low hitbox moves while those with low hitboxes being poor moves in general.

Ganon isn't much worse than Falcon.

And I don't see difference between 95/5 and 80/20. They are both complete ****.

Harder match-ups are harder.

 

[Javon89]

I'd say the only things wrong with the tier list is that Snake should be above the ICs, Mario should be switched with Luigi, the A-tier should be a little wider (I don't really know about that) and Link isn't that terrible, his projectiles can prove quite a nuisance and give him a lot of options and his planking game is good.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i'd Say The Only Things Wrong With The Tier List Is That Snake Should Be Above The Ics, Mario Should Be Switched With Luigi, The A-tier Should Be A Little Wider (i Don't Really Know About That) And Link Isn't That Terrible, His Projectiles Can Prove Quite A Nuisance And Give Him A Lot Of Options And His Planking Game Is Good.

Its Not A List

 

[Javon89]

I know that, but I dunno what else to call it.

 

[Palpi]

Jiggs is one of the lightest in the game and has a **** ground game and hit trades on most aerials. She is not underrated.

 

[Alphicans]

Falco should definitely be 3rd, maybe even second (hard to pick between diddy and falco). Personally I think GaW is seriously underrated these days, his bad match-ups aren't as bad as a lot of people think imo. So with that said, I think GaW could fit in where DDD or even marth are on the tier list.

 

[LoganW]

Falco should definitely be 3rd, maybe even second (hard to pick between diddy and falco). Personally I think GaW is seriously underrated these days, his bad match-ups aren't as bad as a lot of people think imo. So with that said, I think GaW could fit in where DDD or even marth are on the tier list.

no he's painfully predictable, you shouldn't be losing to him unless yo use like jiggs or something lol
he is good in teams though

 

[Alphicans]

I am strong believer that it's the player that makes a character predictable, and that there are always ways around being predictable even if the character carries a bland moveset.

 

[CRASHiC]

What about his matchups though? He losses an incredible amount to the top tiers.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am strong believer that it's the player that makes a character predictable, and that there are always ways around being predictable even if the character carries a bland moveset.

Lessen the faith.
Some characters are predictable because they lack options.
Falcon and Ganondorf being an example.

G&W is predictable because he has few options but, those few options are extremely good that predictability is almost meaningless.

 

[Alphicans]

GaW's options often include good chances to predict your oppoent (dthrow, uair juggles, punishing with smashes etc.) His match-up vs marth I'll admit is awful, but I think vs snake/diddy it's not so bad, especially snake. MK is pretty bad aswell, but he beats out DDD and falco and is even with wario, and doesn't do too bad vs IC's, so I'd say he's not that bad when it comes to match-ups.

 

[CRASHiC]

but he beats out DDD

Lol, that's old. We seriously tech chase you hard, we grab your up b, its so nice
We kill you quick, and learned how to get around the turtle.
We go straight up even with you.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242612

He has to work around Snake, Metaknight, Marth (who is quickly on the rise), and Diddy Kong. Those 4 threats are huge. Meanwhile, he doesn't counter anyone in the top tier
At the moment, King DDD only has to work around Falco, while D3 is (acording to Seibrik and Co18) a counter to Wario.

Its odd when we look at the matchups really. GnW ***** the high tiers, has trouble with the top.
DDD sits nicely in the top, gets ***** by the high tiers.

 

[Nefarious B]

Someone argue with me, why shouldn't ZSS boot GaW out of this B tier (or in the real tier list, become bottom of a tier)?

 

[CRASHiC]

Because she should stay in the kitchen.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol, that's old. We seriously tech chase you hard, we grab your up b, its so nice
We kill you quick, and learned how to get around the turtle.
We go straight up even with you.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242612

He has to work around Snake, Metaknight, Marth (who is quickly on the rise), and Diddy Kong. Those 4 threats are huge. Meanwhile, he doesn't counter anyone in the top tier
At the moment, King DDD only has to work around Falco, while D3 is (acording to Seibrik and Co18) a counter to Wario.

Its odd when we look at the matchups really. GnW ***** the high tiers, has trouble with the top.
DDD sits nicely in the top, gets ***** by the high tiers.

Even if he does go even with DDD (which could still be debatable, because lets face it match-up threads do a poor job representing a match-up), he still goes even with wario, beats falco (slightly), beats out IC's (slightly), gets light countered by Diddy, and only really gets ***** by marth/MK.

 

[jo3bro]

everyone
the list is in tiers, but the characters arent in any order within those tiers

No, I know that. Cuz in the tier list MK is #1. So if I thought the list was based on order, id have no point lol. He clearly says that he thinks that DK is better. And he isn't the first person to say so. I don't think that's true, MK has dominated the metagame for so long as people have tried for so long to get him out (as they did when snake was considered the best wayy back when) and have generally not succeded. I say generally because, people have beat him. But because he's beatable dosent mean he's not the best. He's the best because he's the hardest to beat. I know that noones really said that, but I've heard it before and I wanted to voice my opinon on it. That's my only real problem with the list besides the placement of snake and the exremly large C-Tier.
Btw, sorry for this random post. Hope I didn't annoy anyone too much.