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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
4nace
Smash Ace
Snake should be second not fourth. He has amazing weight and kills early... I don't see how he could be seen below diddy kong. Snake's options are incredible.
Marth and Falco could be switched. Falco is way too vulnerable to aircamping by alot of characters and there are strategies that nullify both his chain grab and laser game. If it wasn't for Diddy Kong and DDD, I think Falco would easily be in B Tier. DDD should also be in A tier right under Wario.
Sonic for the top of your D tier. Honestly, I think Sonic is better than both Mario and Luigi as well. He is definitely better than Wolf.
Your low tiers are pretty awesome though and definitely reflect how I see them except for Ganondorf. He is the worst, no if ands or buts.
Cool list though.
Marth and Falco could be switched. Falco is way too vulnerable to aircamping by alot of characters and there are strategies that nullify both his chain grab and laser game. If it wasn't for Diddy Kong and DDD, I think Falco would easily be in B Tier. DDD should also be in A tier right under Wario.
Sonic for the top of your D tier. Honestly, I think Sonic is better than both Mario and Luigi as well. He is definitely better than Wolf.
Your low tiers are pretty awesome though and definitely reflect how I see them except for Ganondorf. He is the worst, no if ands or buts.
Cool list though.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Someone didn't read where order didn't matter.
4nace
Smash Ace
Ahh gotcha. Well I still think Falco should be in B tier on this list and Marth should move up to A along with DDD.
I also think that Sonic is pushing C Tier, especially if Mario and Luigi find their home there.
I also think that Sonic is pushing C Tier, especially if Mario and Luigi find their home there.
shinyspoon42
Smash Journeyman
Oh fyi, you can smash DI in shield, which means multihitting attacks like G-dubs bair are shieldgrabble by all characters if they read it and smash DI well.
Just try not to buffer a roll when you do this.
O_o... Never knew this. Can someone link me to a thread with more data.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Looking on the first page helps:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248200
I have 2 theories as to how it can be done, I'll try testing.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248200
I have 2 theories as to how it can be done, I'll try testing.
Oh I thought that topic was about aiming your shield or something. Thanks.
JOE!
Smash Hero
as for yoshi, I can see him being in D tier...
I mean, sure he has teh weak shield...but amazing spotdodge and movement to compensate.
other than that he's rather solid, seeing as he can rack damage well enough to slightly compensate for his lack of power. He just has the hurdle of predictable (albeit not really gimpable IMO) recovery, and eggs being slow.
I mean, sure he has teh weak shield...but amazing spotdodge and movement to compensate.
other than that he's rather solid, seeing as he can rack damage well enough to slightly compensate for his lack of power. He just has the hurdle of predictable (albeit not really gimpable IMO) recovery, and eggs being slow.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Pokemon Trainer has recently been proven to be more competent than he is usually given credit for. However, I find Pokemon Trainer's recent success to be in that most people simply don't know the match-up. A lot of people say that Pokemon Trainer should be really good because of having three Pokemon, and this means you can almost always find a positive match-up. However, I think that logic is terribly flawed. Since you have three Pokemon and three stocks, you're going to use each Pokemon once. Most Pokemon Trainers will start with Squirtle as he's the best Pokemon, and probably A Tier individually. They also switch off Ivysaur instantly because despite beast kill power, he's extremely gimp-able if you break his zoning, and considered bottom tier. Charizard himself is mid-tier. The problem comes in the fact that even considering you might have one advantaged MU, you also have to consider that you have one or more disadvantaged MUs. If that bad MU is Squirtle or Charizard, then you're pretty much out 1.5 stocks. Obviously, this is a flaw in the character design, and lands PT in D-Tier.
I have a problem with this Ill break it down
It is true that i find myself winning alot of games if only my opponent did something different against me, but didnt because PT was so foreign to them. I agree with you about the 3 different pokemon thing, and i think most of the PT boards do as well.
Squirtle is in no way A-tier Material Think about who you just put in A-Tier
Wario and Falco, You are comparing squirtle to wario and falco. That is just ridiculous. Alot of people have an idea of pokemon trainer as being a squirtle who never gets tired and is out for all three stock, but fatique is a huge deal and comes out when you need that extra power to land the KO. With several characters having amazing and ridiculous grab releases on squirtle, his extremely light weight (tied with GaW for 2nd lightest but has no bucket braking) comes into play in a great way. The Grab released are synonymous to warios grab releases but squirtle doesnt have the weight taht wario has. Ivysuar can perform really well or really poorly and usuallly random. Yes i mean random in 100% of the word, ivysuar can prevent the gimp pretty well with razor leaf, but because you cannot control how high or low razor leaf goes, you can end up missing the opponent on the ledge and get KO'd because of that. Ivysuar has alot of powerful attacks but every single one of them is really hard to land. It is hard to skip ivysuar as well especially aginst characters with really strong attacks such as dedede, ike, snake, falcon, ganon, Or characters that have a really good combo at low percent. MK (glide attack -> nair -> uair - > upB), diddykong (glidetoss -> dash attack ->Upsmash) etc. Charizard is also not mid-tier as well, lets see who you are comparing zard to
Rob, Kirby, Lucario, ZSS, TL, Pit, Peach, DK, Mario, luigi, Sheik.
Rob is really a great character but has no representation since they all got annoyed by MK, but there are good robs out there that i have played such as light, who really showed me that charizard is no where near the league of a character like him. Kirby is also a solid character that has good matchups against alot of the top tiers and down here in texas proved to be a great character in MK banned events, charizard is nowhere near kirby. Lucario has amazing inescapable combos, and instead of getting weaker as the match goes on he gets stronger, has some solid CP stages as well and good gimping ability and KO ability, zard is nowhere near his leage. ZSS, ZSS has been getting better and better and has 40-50% combos and a great way to spike near the ledge after a dsmash, her recoervy aint so bad either, charizard isnt near at all the leage of ZSS, with alot of emphasis added. TL, TL is a beast this is just ridicous to compare zard to him at all as well, i dont even want to. im getting tired of thsi but basically Zard is crap compared to the great characters in Mid-tier, except mario, wtf did you put him in tere for.
Also your low tier is too small
Browny
Smash Hater
I started reading this thread hoping for something good.
It was going well. and then...
---
I will also add, that this list is blatantly affected by massive amounts of personal bias, and probably does not warrant its own thread in tactical boards. Put it in a blog or something. Dont take offense to that, it is not humanly possible to make a list without bias, its just that, thats what blogs are for...
It was going well. and then...
Yeah ok. stopped reading right there and have no reason to believe anything else you said in the OP
---
I will also add, that this list is blatantly affected by massive amounts of personal bias, and probably does not warrant its own thread in tactical boards. Put it in a blog or something. Dont take offense to that, it is not humanly possible to make a list without bias, its just that, thats what blogs are for...
Neb
Smash Lord
Bair can be used on Snake without triggering a grenade, period.
If he's holding a nade standard or as an item and facing away, everything from the hips down is vulnerable.
If he holds it forward, his front will always be sensitive to a tipper bair.
If he shield drops, and keeps his guard up, his whole upper body can be penetrated.
When the nades an item, G&W should be spacing bair on his lower body. (when he shields with it also)
If he holds it forward, his front will always be sensitive to a tipper bair.
If he shield drops, and keeps his guard up, his whole upper body can be penetrated.
When the nades an item, G&W should be spacing bair on his lower body. (when he shields with it also)
Mind you, he needs to be timing the bair correctly, and DI'ing backward to not continue into the nade. But really, the simplest mindset a G&W player can have while doing this is to hit where the nade isn't, then retreat.
I just want to clear this up. Game & Watch can still bair Marth and MK's shields, he just needs to space turtle at its tip and be retreating once making contact. Each hit against their shield produces subtle knockback, that along with DI'ing away will influences DS/SL's reach. I've tested this frame-by-frame, and G&W actually has some wiggle room, he doesn't have to be perfect to pull this off.
Too, spacing the turtle on a shield is very distinct opposed to standard spacing. You have to keep in mind that the shield *usually* has a larger hurtbox than the actual character, the knockback from each hit, and retreating into the ground at an angle (slides G&W across the floor, and farther away from his opponent while suffering from lag).
Dooms
KY/KP Joey
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I think you need to spread it out more. Honestly, theres too many characters in C tier. @.@
gm jack
Smash Lord
If the characters are all of roughly equal potential, and there is no significant gaps, then it should stay as it is.
'V'
Smash Lord
People over-estimate their characters too much...
Meh, the thing I agree with most is about Snake potentially not being number 2. I don't see how Diddy can be better than MK within the realm of normal human ability. The amount of options MK has compared to the likely hood of reward will always make him the best character except MABYE at the highest level.
Good read though, I love the justifications for S-B tiers placements.
Good read though, I love the justifications for S-B tiers placements.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
The tier list only shows highest level.
Thus, Fox will always be at the top of the Melee, despite the amazing difficulty of using him.
Thus, Fox will always be at the top of the Melee, despite the amazing difficulty of using him.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Then refute them, if you think they're wrong. If you don't know enough to refute them, than how can you be sure they're overestimating the character in the first place?
Too many people come in here criticizing others for trying to explain their characters, without any substantial points to actually argue. Seriously, someone please argue my post that I made on ZSS a bit back, I didn't get one reply, so am I supposed to assume that everyone agrees with me, or that no one actually knows enough to argue?
I think the point is that without fatigue, Squirtle is A-tier. His bair is really safe on block, his jab is one frame, and is actually good, unlike ZSS's, he's TINY, which makes him nearly impossible for most of the cast to hit consistently, let alone grab (so much for grab releases), his dthrow hits like a truck, and he can also KO with usmash (which has wicked range) and fair off the stage. I'll be honest, Squirtle strikes me as a really small, lightweight Wario who just KOs with different moves. He would definitely be A tier if fatigue didn't come into play.
Personally I think Dedede should be in the A tier, simply because he is a good character to camp or approach with. D3 does have some really lopsided MUs like ICs, Falco, Olimar, etc. Mainly the smaller, quick characters. But, D3 has versatility to play on nearly any stage due to his recovery, something that some of the top characters lack (ICs, Snake). Combine that with his weight, killing power, and his strange amount of speed, he should be higher.
I also think Snake should receive more credit than is given. He is the best character in the game on a neutral stage. His only problem could maybe be D3, other than that he is solid. With that being said, he is definitely not last of the S tier since many high tier characters would be best on a neutral stage anyways (ICs, Falco, D3), which he could take any of them.
I also think Snake should receive more credit than is given. He is the best character in the game on a neutral stage. His only problem could maybe be D3, other than that he is solid. With that being said, he is definitely not last of the S tier since many high tier characters would be best on a neutral stage anyways (ICs, Falco, D3), which he could take any of them.
'V'
Smash Lord
Nah... No thanks. Arguments never really get anywhere on the forums. I know from experience. Just stating my opinion anyway.
If I'm just predicting what'll happen...
Dedede in A Tier, and G&W to low A Tier.
Kirby and ROB in B Tier.
Pokèmon Trainer in C Tier.
Zelda in E Tier.
MAYBE Samus in F Tier.
I can agree with all of these statements as far as my feelings go, except for G&W. He should be at most low B Tier, although I'm leaning toward C.
Dedede in A Tier, and G&W to low A Tier.
Kirby and ROB in B Tier.
Pokèmon Trainer in C Tier.
Zelda in E Tier.
MAYBE Samus in F Tier.
I can agree with all of these statements as far as my feelings go, except for G&W. He should be at most low B Tier, although I'm leaning toward C.
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
You
and youDJBrowny said:
are morons. Considering pierce is willing to read ANYTHING on this forum, despite how worthless a lot of input really is when you think about it, either not returning the courtesy or pussing out because you know you don't actually have a good point to make are just punk, ignorant moves. Keep in mind that I agree fully with the idea that people think too highly of their characters but that's not the point.
Coney
Smash Master
he's definitely A tier, but not for the reasons you've listed. DDD is a notoriously bad approach artist, he's just too big and limited. on top of that, he's not really versatile at all...sure, his recovery is good, but his extremely slow aerial speed makes some levels like the Metroid stages a big pain.
i think snake is much more versatile in terms of stage selection than DDD, to be honest.
On a random note, to bring up an earlier discussion, GnW's smashes aren't hard to powershield because of duration, start-up, or anything of that type.
GnW's smashes are hard to powershield because the startup of everything is the same god**** thing. There're no visual cues at all to know when to powershield. Show me freeze frames of the startup of that Fsmash or Usmash, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between frame 2 and frame 22. That alone makes it hell to powershield. :<
GnW's smashes are hard to powershield because the startup of everything is the same god**** thing. There're no visual cues at all to know when to powershield. Show me freeze frames of the startup of that Fsmash or Usmash, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between frame 2 and frame 22. That alone makes it hell to powershield. :<
gm jack
Smash Lord
Also, the charge releases are very quick. It's something like 2 frames for Usmash. So if a G&W suspects a PS is coming, it can just be charged and released on reaction to any action other than holding shield out.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
No, G&W can't. If you start your bair so late to hit us below the hips, we should have shielded. You commit into your attack and hit the grenade.
If you start bair to early, we just DI into you and you hit the grenade.
If you start the bair at any other time you'll hit the grenade.
Also one-two hit bair's isn't exactly what you want with a bair. Also getting that spacing while your opponent is MOVING is rather difficult.
Dido
Smash Journeyman
Why does everybody Not pick wario for top teir. bet because he looks weird, other than that, who really cares bout chaingrabs!?
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Wario reminds me of Dr. Robotnik somehow.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
I like Snake's placement here, even lower might be suitable.
OizenX
Smash Journeyman
MetaKnight will remain Jesus.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Hes tiny, but so are his hitboxes, and almost everytime you use an aerial you want to land instead of autocanceling with squirtle, making him very easy to sheild grab. And Height hardly affects how often someone can get grabbed, you act as if hes wario or something, squirtle has the same chance of being grabbed as someone else. His dthrow is strong, second stronged throw in the game i beleive, but when do you need it? around 120% maybe? by then you are fatigued and it doesnt KO until 150-160%, Every usmash is blockable on reaction even hydroplanned ones. A-Tier? Take a look at whos in A-Tier, he cannot compare even if he had no fatigue those characters are just too good, I have played against those characters with PT hacks on and i still had trouble.
RATED
Smash Lord
pft, is not bcuz I main Snake but cmon... LOL diddy is pretty good is beast but cmon... higher than snake. I respect ur opinion so is "ok"
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I'm going to have to disagree with you Coney.
Every character has the same approach in the DDD matchup, camp.
Because the opponent will not approach, if we don't approach and succeed at approaching, we lose the match.
Also, I love one of the Samus stages, I can't remember which one. Its lack of edge makes camping very good for D3, and the transition puts the opponent up for a gimp if they don't know how to use the stage.
Coney
Smash Master
well i love metroid stages too, but i really thought i was just an anomaly. i heard they were both bad because of our low air movement speed. i never visit the DDD boards anymore, so :<
and i guess you're right, we'd HAVE to have a decent approach because we get camped hard by so many people. i guess a better thing to say is that our approaches are ultimately limited...unless they aren't
i mean jeez, i dunno, i approach fine too, but it was my understanding that it was one of his biggest issues @_@
it's very difficult to approach snake, for me at least. and diddy.
and i guess you're right, we'd HAVE to have a decent approach because we get camped hard by so many people. i guess a better thing to say is that our approaches are ultimately limited...unless they aren't
i mean jeez, i dunno, i approach fine too, but it was my understanding that it was one of his biggest issues @_@
it's very difficult to approach snake, for me at least. and diddy.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Snake and Diddy are to very difficult character to approach in general. Nearly every character has trouble approaching them. Seib has a good strategy that he uses to fight Snakes. I'll get it for you, helped me.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I still feel like Link is underrated. I struggle to understand how a character with a surprisingly strong camping game, versatile playstyle, decent kill options, huge range, a jab lock, is really heavy, and has nice disjointed hitboxes can be placed with the likes of Falcon and Ganondorf. Sure, his recovery is beyond horrid, and nothing about him really shines, but just by comparison, he definitely belongs with the characters in the tier above him.
At the very least, unlike Ganondorf and Falcon, at least all of his matchups aren't: "you are forced to approach, but you have no approach options, good luck."
At the very least, unlike Ganondorf and Falcon, at least all of his matchups aren't: "you are forced to approach, but you have no approach options, good luck."
Coney
Smash Master
yeah, please message that to me! for some reason i just can't beat candy. i can go even with people around his level but snake is just a mystery @_@