Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Maniclysane]

What are you basing these match up ratios on? Intuition?

Also there is no such thing as a perfect rest.

If you don't know what a perfect rest is, then give up talking about Jigglypuff.

Either that or you're bad at trolling.

 

[SuSa]

Ally doesn't know about the 11 characters you can tech chase on reaction, and prefers the ftilt. He also doesn't grab release boost grab Falco when he can.

Ally is the best placing Snake. He performs really well, but he hates being "overly flashy" (grab release chaingrab) and he doesn't know ALL the little things. (He's taught me some little things I never knew about either. I'm sure I've actually taught him a few things as well)

The ONLY option we cannot react to on time is Falco's away roll. And that's ONLY if he's able to roll 3/4ths or more of the distance.

Also, I use dair after dthrow if I notice my opponent likes to pause a moment before reacting.

Also you must have little experience reading people who mix it up between 4 or less options... which is extremely close to a tech chase mind you.

It's entirely possible.

 

[Justblaze647]

what a perfect rest is

Show me with video evidence plz

 

[SuSa]

Rest has invincibility frames up to frame 28/29 (I forget which), and the hitbox is frame 2 (IIRC). If you can time it right, you can rest people out of moves that aren't disjointed (and by disjointed, I don't mean the length of the attack. I mean the hitbox DOES NOT OVERLAP the hurtbox. Which means like.. moves with swords.. or Snake's utilt... lol)

I do it to Sonic's often when they use down-B/Side-B against me.

Also on Brinstar, or any level where you can have hitlag. You can make it even easier to perfect rest.

I camp the pillars on Brinstar, and the pillars on Luigi's Mansion. <3

 

[Justblaze647]

Okay. You'll have to forgive my "know nothing" about jiggz, but I dont think that technique is enough to make her not the worst character in the game.

 

[Maniclysane]

Show me with video evidence plz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JDfKvOerA&feature=channel_page

This is where illinialex discovered perfect resting, and Veril came a month later, expanding on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQSEhawLRuE&feature=channel_page

Another video with alex and veril expanding upon it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZYMyP4qRzI&feature=player_profilepage#

Part 2, posted on Verils account.

Okay. You'll have to forgive my "know nothing" about jiggz, but I dont think that technique is enough to make her not the worst character in the game.

No. You are making an outrageous and non negotiable statement. You are saying, without a doubt, Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game.

Then you go to say "oh lol soz i don kno much bout jigz."

Your posts are all jokes.

 

[kozimoto]

Everbody keeps talking about how Snake is "limited" and how MK has "lots of options" without elaborating. I'm getting around to realize that those are probably dummy arguments to justify bias.

im with you on this one. i understand that snake's action is comepletly based off the opponents response (or lack of response) but what else limits him? but im totaly with ppl saying that the MU's that seemed **** like a year ago are actually possible wins now.

 

[German Wolf]

Samus always stays at the same place. *sigh* Is there a way to improve her?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Samus always stays at the same place. *sigh* Is there a way to improve her?

Find some why to improve her ability to kill earlier. Do that, and Samus should more than definitly rise.

 

[Maniclysane]

Samus always stays at the same place. *sigh* Is there a way to improve her?

Hold R after you select her.

 

[Kewkky]

Samus always stays at the same place. *sigh* Is there a way to improve her?

(Up taunt > Down taunt) x 4 really fast... Preferably with both hands. I might be wrong, but she immediately reaches the top of B tier this way.

 

[Justblaze647]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JDfKvOerA&feature=channel_page

This is where illinialex discovered perfect resting, and Veril came a month later, expanding on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQSEhawLRuE&feature=channel_page

Another video with alex and veril expanding upon it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZYMyP4qRzI&feature=player_profilepage#

Part 2, posted on Verils account.



No. You are making an outrageous and non negotiable statement. You are saying, without a doubt, Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game.

Then you go to say "oh lol soz i don kno much bout jigz."

Your posts are all jokes.

Good. Now I dare you to show me how this "tech" can be used in an actual match. Say a Tourney match for instance. It is one thing to show an AT in a practice setting. It is something entirely different to use them on a competent opponent (that isnt a comp), in a situation where both parties are actually striving for victory... go ahead... I dare you.

Spoiler

Jigglypuff is a ****ing joke

 

[SuSa]

Jigglypuff is not the worst character in the game.

She is however, pitiful and is def. in the bottom 5 in the game.

Link or Ganon are the worst.

Oh, and I've pulled the perfect rest off in friendlies and low tier tourneys. <_< It's not impossible.

Also with Jigglypuff's airspeed, punishing airdodges isn't to hard with rest.
Her ability to gimp is still good.

Her range is utterly pitiful, and landing the KO move can be a pain. Especially if for some stupid reason you staled fair (which is..... her.. only..reliable...KO...move.. unless your name is Veril or SuSa and you land rest at least once every match)

 

[Justblaze647]

Link or Ganon are the worst.

Explain how this is possible, plz. Explain how jiggz is better than these characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jiigs isn't flop 5. Ike, Lucas, Link, Falcon and Ganon are the 5 worst characters.

Edit: Jiggs is good offstage, can aircamp + pressure by running the clock, is mobile, has two decent, safe aerials (bair and fair). She's like a very weak version of Wario but better than those 5 sure (and imo also better than Zelda and Samus)

 

[Justblaze647]

Jiigs isn't flop 5. Ike, Lucas, Link, Falcon and Ganon are the 5 worst characters.

You are wrong.

See? I can end my unsupported argument with a period, too.

Edit: None of Jiggs attacks can be considered safe. She has less range than Olimar without his pikmin.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Why do you consider Ike one of the 5 worst characters O_O?

Also, whats so bad about Lucas? He really doesn't strike me as one of the worst characters.

 

[SuSa]

Except for the fact, you are wrong.

Jiggs is actually safe on block (looks at Ganon and Link)
Jiggs has a good air game (looks at Ganon and Link)
Jiggs can deal with camping (looks at Ganon)
Jiggs is able to not be gimped by 1 attack off stage (looks at Ganon and Link)
Jiggs is able to juggle opponents extremely well. (looks at Ganon and Link)
Jiggs can gimp opponents with ease thanks to sourspotted aerials (looks at Ganon and Link)

You know who else is exactly like that almost?

Wario.

You know who's like Jigglypuff, but buffed?

Wario.

You know who else can air plank?

Wario

Those who would be great with Jigglypuff, play Wario. <_<

 

[Maniclysane]

go ahead... I dare you.

It's not that f*cking hard to do. You simply DI into their attack, then rest. Veril rested every single fsmash, usmash, and dash attack that my Diddy threw at him. On a blue connection.

Spoonbob rested me through my D3's Uair and dair so many times. I wouldn't even call it perfect resting, but he perfect shielding my ftilts too, then rested me. We had a green connection. Give or take 5-10 frames of lag I would guess.

Those are real scenarios.

You're too stubborn to even watch the video. The first link I posted, was against a real toon link player.

Get out of this thread.

And I dare someone to [Unrelated Stuff]... Dare you.

go ahead... I dare you.

Jesus christ.

 

['V']

Ice climbers are gonna go up.

 

[SuSa]

Wario has about as much range as Jigglypuff in the air. In fact, I like Jigglypuffs fair ties with Wario's bair for their max air range.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

\
Get *****. People said the same thing in Melee. "if marf haz good spacing jigz is trash lol." Theres things like baiting and punishing. Stop being garbage at theory craft.

If only MK was easy to bait

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Explain how this is possible, plz. Explain how jiggz is better than these characters.

You actually need to play Link and Ganon to know how bad they are.

@Susa: Jigglypuff is faster than Wario in the air, that should account for more range.

 

[Maniclysane]

Those who would be great with Jigglypuff, play Wario. <_<

And crazy people like me, who play Weegee.
Because my Wario is garbage <_<

I agree with Gheb though. I think she's better than Samus. I don't know anything about Zelda though, so I'll just keep my mouth shut about her.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do you consider Ike one of the 5 worst characters O_O?

Because he completely blows. He has several 7/3 match-ups against high tier characters (MK, Snake, Falco, D3, Olimar, the list goes on ...), and about 5 good moves (jab, fair, nair, bair and usmash). Get a lead against him, camp in your shield, abuse your superior mobility (applies to almost every character) to camp him even harder and you'll see that it's very easy to beat him with every character above D-Tier.

Ike does really well in LT tourneys because none of the legal LT characters have a significant advantage (except PT and Sonic but they're not allowed in all regions...) over him and he beats most other LT chars. If you look at the bigger picture and see how much better characters like Ness or Jigglypuff do against the good characters then it becomes obvious that Ike is just plain horrible. He is however not very hard to use and also fun to play thus there were times when he had some decent representation in tournament.

Also, whats so bad about Lucas? He really doesn't strike me as one of the worst characters.

I have lots of experience against Lucas...enough to say that he's really a horrible character. His options in close ranged are minimal because his grab (Ike can punish it with fsmash ON REACTION) is just unusable. His approaches are all easy to beat with pivot grabs or better aerials (most characters have them) and his KO moves are not only highly punishable but also have significant start-up lag...enough to react accordingly. Being unable to deal decent damage due to lack of safeness, being unable to kill due to bad KO moves, getting ***** in close range due to lack of a decent grab, being easily outcamped due to a laggy, mediocre projectile and being a victim to grab release shenanigans = low E-Tier.

 

[Justblaze647]

Except for the fact, you are wrong.

Ehh... I'm still not convinced.

Jiggs is actually safe on block (looks at Ganon and Link)

You mean to tell me that its okay for jiggz to hold her shield on the ground? Or are you perhaps insinuating that jiggz cant be shield grabbed?

Jiggs has a good air game (looks at Ganon and Link)

Define good air game. The fact that she has (maybe) two usable aerials and pound?

Jiggs can deal with camping (looks at Ganon)

How? By floating around, waiting to get hit? Maybe by getting projectiles spammed on her, because she has NO WAY to deal with them...

Jiggs is able to not be gimped by 1 attack off stage (looks at Ganon and Link)

Yes. And that makes up for the fact that she dies at ridiculously low percents.

Jiggs is able to juggle opponents extremely well. (looks at Ganon and Link)

Juggle? You mean the kind of juggling that gets airdodged through?

Jiggs can gimp opponents with ease thanks to sourspotted aerials (looks at Ganon and Link)

Are you suggesting that Link has more trouble getting a kill than jiggz? Or perhaps Ganon? Don't confuse a character that has to gimp her opponent to get a kill, with characters that have actual KO options.

 

[Maniclysane]

If only MK was easy to bait

...What? I don't even get what you're implying.

Watch Fiction ****** MK's. Tell me he doesn't use any baiting.

 

[Justblaze647]

You're too stubborn to even watch the video. The first link I posted, was against a real toon link player.

Why dont you watch your own video. That "perfect rest" was jigg's first kill in a three stock match. Jiggz was on her last stock. Maybe its possible to do, and perhaps it is even useful, but the name of this game is consistency.

Edit:

You actually need to play Link and Ganon to know how bad they are.

I do. I play both of them. IMO, they are both better than jiggz

 

[SuSa]

@Just
Jiggs should rarely, if ever, be shielding. You know what happens if her shield is broken. Right?

All aerials are able to be used, pound is pretty good and eats half a shield. She's able to cross up her opponents as well, which helps her not be shieldgrabbed. Pound cross up into bair. Retreat away. Rising dair cross up, bair. She's able to weave in and out. It's helpful.

Fair cancels out certain projectiles (same with nair), and with her many jumps and low crouch she can avoid basically every projectile in the game. (Go watch ChuDat's Kirby and you'll get an idea how it's done, it's basically done the same way with Jiggs)

We're talking lower tiers here however. The low tiers actually have a problem hitting a good jiggs. So dying at a low % doesn't make that huge of a difference.

GL simply airdodging through Jiggle's juggle game. Again, you already mentioned you know nothing about the character.

Jigglypuff actually has a reliable KO option. All of Link's and Ganon's moves are so slow they shouldn't be landing anyways. You getting dair'd or something? Ganon has.....well... uair I guess? and Link has........... well... er.... ............ hell, my only combo video ever was for my Link, I mained him for several months, and I still can't think of a reliable KO move.... his KO moves require your opponent messing up or a good read.

The tl;dr of this

Jigglypuff mains need to play gayer, bait more, and learn how to land rests. I only ever play her in friendlies (Snakeeeee mainnn in tourney).


Except for her stupidly hard high tier matchups, she's decent. Better then Ganon who has what.... 1 even matchup.. vs Falcon?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ally doesn't know about the 11 characters you can tech chase on reaction, and prefers the ftilt. He also doesn't grab release boost grab Falco when he can.
ok, so if he places higher, and doesn't go for the 'totally inescapable tech-chase', doesn't that mean something?

Ally is the best placing Snake. He performs really well, but he hates being "overly flashy" (grab release chaingrab) and he doesn't know ALL the little things. (He's taught me some little things I never knew about either. I'm sure I've actually taught him a few things as well)
So why don't you teach him those little things? I'd love to see ally techchase m2k 8 minutes long.

The ONLY option we cannot react to on time is Falco's away roll. And that's ONLY if he's able to roll 3/4ths or more of the distance.
Theres always dacus, I guess. but that aint intimidating at all

Also, I use dair after dthrow if I notice my opponent likes to pause a moment before reacting.
Tell it to ally, see how he incorporates it into his game
Snake places higher and gets first on tier list
???
profit

Also you must have little experience reading people who mix it up between 4 or less options... which is extremely close to a tech chase mind you.
I actually DO have little experience reading people who mix it up between 4 options because if I guess (yeah, it's just glorified guessing) I only have a 25% chance to guess it right. There's no experience involved.

It's entirely possible.

Yeahyea replies in red n stuff

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Are you suggesting that Link has more trouble getting a kill than jiggz? Or perhaps Ganon? Don't confuse a character that has to gimp her opponent to get a kill, with characters that have actual KO options.

FAir kills? Getting gimps with Jigglypuff is alot easier than landing KOs with Ganon.

 

[Maniclysane]

You mean to tell me that its okay for jiggz to hold her shield on the ground? Or are you perhaps insinuating that jiggz cant be shield grabbed?

No. She can attack someone's shield and stay safe.

How? By floating around, waiting to get hit? Maybe by getting projectiles spammed on her, because she has NO WAY to deal with them...

Grabbing the edge? Air dodging?

I'm convinced you're a troll.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

jiggs holy crap is fun to play as. But she is not the worst character in the game. She doesnt have much range but if u remain evaisive with jiggs u wont get KO'd as early, combine that with her great recovery and aircamping. plus can be unpredictable in the air when it comes to comboing she isnt the worst in he game. Sure she has a small shield and when it breaks she dies instantly. And shes as light as hell. But definitly not the worst in the game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ehh... I'm still not convinced.

Why do I get the feeling that you won't be convinced by anything?

You mean to tell me that its okay for jiggz to hold her shield on the ground? Or are you perhaps insinuating that jiggz cant be shield grabbed?

As in, she should be able to attack without being shield grabbed. With proper spacing, this is doable because her immense air speed can be used to weave away before they can react.

Define good air game. The fact that she has (maybe) two usable aerials and pound?

Please tell me you're joking about her havign two usable aerials. ALL of her aerials are useful. Fair for obvious reasons, since it kills well, allows her to approach, decent range, fast etc. Bair is good for comboing and edgeguarding, and approaching too. Dair is good for shield pressuring, damage racking and can sometimes lead into Rest. Nair has a long-lasting hitbox to go through airdodges and spotdodges, and finally Uair is good for juggling.

How? By floating around, waiting to get hit? Maybe by getting projectiles spammed on her, because she has NO WAY to deal with them...

Jigglypuff has six jumps at her disposal. She can easily use them to avoid projectiles.

Yes. And that makes up for the fact that she dies at ridiculously low percents.

Personally, I'd rather be outright killed at 90% and always be able to recover, than be outright killed at 140% and be able to be gimped at 40%+.

Juggle? You mean the kind of juggling that gets airdodged through?

Airdodging is a factor, but since most airdodges have a good 10-20 frames of lag afterwards (30 if you're playing against Peach), you can often bait them and use it while they're in lag.

Are you suggesting that Link has more trouble getting a kill than jiggz? Or perhaps Ganon? Don't confuse a character that has to gimp her opponent to get a kill, with characters that have actual KO options.

No one did confuse them. I think we all accept that Jigglypuff has killing problems.

No one is saying that Jigglypuff is good. She's definitely in the bottom 5. But saying that she's the worst in the game is downright absurd.

 

[Kewkky]

JustBlaze.

You know nothing about Jigglypuff, and are just assuming lots of things. Don't talk if you know nothing about them, and make sure you research them thoroughly before going on about a characters' strengths and weaknesses. ALL of jiggs' aerials have their uses, for example. Dair can combo into rest at times, as well as gimp (since it's a multi-hit move, it's hard to evade), fair kills, bair gimps, nair gimps AND goes through lots of things (disjointed) and uair can go through platforms as well as juggle predictable dodges). Safe on block means that when she attacks a shield, she's relatively safe, compared to Link and Ganon.

Those are the two things that mostly bothered me.

 

[Maniclysane]

Why dont you watch your own video. That "perfect rest" was jigg's first kill in a three stock match. Jiggz was on her last stock. Maybe its possible to do, and perhaps it is even useful, but the name of this game is consistency.

That was a real match, with two people going head to head. Just like you asked.

Stop making up new rules and discrediting whatever other people say.

 

[Justblaze647]

Guys. What is the point of an online forum? To express one's opinion, correct? My opinion is that Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game. It is not baseless, as we have all agreed by now that she is, in fact, a terrible character.
Unless I can obtain some undeniable proof that this character is noticeably better than those she is being compared to, my opinion will continue to hold strong...

@ SuSa: Thank you for presenting your side of the argument, without having to resort to trying to insult my intelligence to try and prove how superior you think you are.

@ Maniclysane: Thanks for spending the whole time trying to make me feel like I know nothing about this game that I love, and also for attempting to demean what would have otherwise been an interesting and informative debate...

I say all of that to say this... Jiggz sux

 

[BOB SAGET!]

whats with the ice climbers being so high in the OP. They arent that good if u know how to deal with them. They has such a small grab range and can be seperated and gimped by some characters easily. Not to mention the possiblility of the ice climber user screwing up the chain grab.

 

[CRASHiC]

How about the fact that she can air camp every low tier character?
If she hits one of the low tiers once, Jiggz has won the match.

 

[Justblaze647]

^And this guy is a f*cking troll^