Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i seriously believe the next tier list will have a tie between MK and Snake if not a point system will be re-introduced and snake will be a 14.95-14.99 and mk will be a 15

I don't know. I sort of doubt it.

No one can claim to have even a slight advantage over MK, althougth there are many people that are pretty close, and might become so in the near future.

Snake on the other hand is becoming like MK. Many characters that countered Snake are now seeing more and more people agree that the MUs are evenish with maybe a slight advantage to the character that once hard countered them (i.e. DDD).

Despite the similarities now, there are still really different. Snake is somewhat effected by stage selection. While Snake can be argued to have no stage that he cannot somehow adapt too, many characters can overpower snake with the correct choice. Wario on Brinstar against Snake is an example of this. MK on the other hand can pretty much fight on any stage against any character without too much trouble.

Snake also has very few match-ups that he just completely shuts down a single character. Most are small advantages he has against 90% of the cast. The only ones he has major advantages on are a couple in the high and mid tier and the rest in the low tier. But many characters in the low tier have hard counters against them. MK has advantages on everyone, and even hard counters a lot more. Peach, Pit, and a few others see MK as a road block like DKs have against DDD (but not nearly as bad).

So for now, I still see MK still being a notch above Snake.

 

[CRASHiC]

Snake on the other hand is becoming like MK. Many characters that countered Snake are now seeing more and more people agree that the MUs are evenish with maybe a slight advantage to the character that once hard countered them (i.e. DDD).

Inui and Ally disagree.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Inui and Ally disagree.

Disagree on what notion? Snake not having any hard counters?

I disagree with that statement because I personally think that Snake does have them.

 

[CRASHiC]

Oh no, Snake's never had any hard counters (as in 30:70)
But Inui was arguing that DDD still beats Snake by a good deal, though I think he just needs some lessons from Lambchops personally. No one plays the Snake Vs. DDD matchup as good as Lambchops, and from the opposite end Seibrik. They are at the peak of that matchup, and they both say 55:45 DDD, so I think they just need a bit of help.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Oh no, Snake's never had any hard counters (as in 30:70)
But Inui was arguing that DDD still beats Snake by a good deal, though I think he just needs some lessons from Lambchops personally. No one plays the Snake Vs. DDD matchup as good as Lambchops, and from the opposite end Seibrik. They are at the peak of that matchup, and they both say 55:45 DDD, so I think they just need a bit of help.

That still fits with what I was getting at 0.o I wasnt' saying that Snake has no counters at all (50-50 the worst it could be). I was simply saying that many match-ups were becoming no worse than 45-55. Originally it was like 65-35 for DDDs favor, now i am seeing many people think it's 55:45.

 

[CRASHiC]

Let's just see what happens when Mew2King plays Ally next with DDD like he says he will.
He played the wario matchup two years ago the style we DDDs are just now picking up.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I think it's funny how the "pro" matchups are working out.


Between M2k/Ally

M2k: Mk is even, i need a bigger adv... I'll go DDD for the matchup

Ally: this is nothin

M2k win

Ally: I need a bigger adv in the matchup, i'll Go mk.

M2k this means nothing

Ally wins.

MK DITTOESSS lol




What i find funny is that FL was actually ahead of the "meta game" on this aspect.

This specific countering system came up with me vs afro on many occasions.

I'd use MK until the pressure got to me, switch to ddd to get a free win or two from his snake, then he'd go mk, and IF he wins i'd mk ditto him.

 

[Pierce7d]

Just a heads up, I haven't really been participating in the discussion because school last week ***** my free time. I will be getting back in this, I just need time to read through, and I'll just make a big post.

I need to talk about Zelda, Ike, GnW, Snake, and Falco it seems. I'm on page 28 now, so sometime today expect another post

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, Sonic can't kill is so 2008...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Just a heads up, I haven't really been participating in the discussion because school last week ***** my free time. I will be getting back in this, I just need time to read through, and I'll just make a big post.

I need to talk about Zelda, Ike, GnW, Snake, and Falco it seems. I'm on page 28 now, so sometime today expect another post

You better elaborate on ZSS too.

 

[Pierce7d]

No it's not. I challenge you to not use dodge moves vs. Sonic. Always attack into him on the ground, and never spot dodge. If you play correctly and smart, you will find yourself not getting hit by fsmash, or Bair. Uair can still kill you, but you can dodge Bair on reaction.

For all of you posting your own tier lists, while I respect your opinions, please don't. It completely deteriorates the topic.

This thread is different from the other threads in a small, but significant way. Instead of talking about those tier lists, it talks about what v4 is going to look like. This thread was also a decent form of debate until I went on hiatus this week, and it kinda deteriorated. I apologize.

Seibrik, I'm VERY interested in D3's metagame right now. But thanks for backing me up on the vs Falco MU. It's frustrating trying to explain to people that Falco really hurts D3 in a mean way. I'm curious to see what D3's Dair camping is really like.

I'm staying at Alex Strife's place with Ally and Ninjalink right now. Basically, after playing them last night, my opinion is reinfoced. Ninjalink showed me stuff I didn't even know about DIDDY AND ICE CLIMBERS that make them yet better than I originally thought (his chaingrabs are sick btw) and Ally, while still ****, showed me more reasons why Snake is limited.

Before anyone starts saying, "Pierce, you're mad biased," I'm just going to point out that I try to think as objectively as possible, but like all people, yes, I am subject to bias. It's okay though, because I argue with facts and examples, and will listen to you if you have something intelligent to say.

Zelda players are stupidly blind. There is NO WAY you have a 6-4 with Marth, and a lot of those MUs are worse than you think. I've been rethinking Zelda a little. Safe Fsmash, shield stab usmash, and decent dtilt poke are all decent tools. However, she FAILS to camping super hard. She can't camp anyone. Seriously, tell a GOOD player to camp Zelda, and try to "force them to approach" with Din's Fire. LOLOLOLOLOL. Just watch Zelda do that little arm motion and powershield it on release. It cannot force any types of approaches in singles on any character.

At any rate, I'd say Zelda compliments Sheik very well. Ninjalink's Zelda is a beast btw. And no, he did not beat my Marth with it.

I'm aware Squirtle is attached to Pokemon Trainer and has fatigue. You'll note that I did not put a Squirtle Icon in the A-Tier section.

ZSS also has no solid approaches, and fails against camping, though her tools are still good. I'm very aware of her masterful airgame.

Let me clear up what I meant about Sonic. First of all DJ, please don't try and discredit what I say WHILE MISQUOTING ME. I said Sonic's homing attack can help him get out of juggles, not help him get out of combos. Now, Sonic's homing attack freezes you in place which is WHY it helps you. If you are falling, and someone is trying to hit you back up, they are going to be reading your anticipated falling trajectory and path. By freezing in one place, you can cause your opponent to whiff. Especially if the character is named Marth, and has a particularly laggy Uair if not auto-canceled, and probably has the greatest tools besides GnW to juggle sonic. Furthermore, the attack can be charged, to increase Sonic's height, adding to the chance of whiff, and modifying the release time slightly. In no way did I mean to imply Sonic should always use homing attack when falling, I merely noted it as a tool.

Ike is pretty bad. People really haven't spent any time developing a metagame vs. Ike. Fair on reaction is pretty easy, but no one does it because Ike just isn't important. Mastering that one thing makes the MU much easier. Jab is a good tool, and so is Bair, but Ike needs more. Ike is all about ****** noobs who roll.

I'll talk about the other characters in a bit, including ZSS.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda players are stupidly blind. There is NO WAY you have a 6-4 with Marth, and a lot of those MUs are worse than you think. I've been rethinking Zelda a little. Safe Fsmash, shield stab usmash, and decent dtilt poke are all decent tools. However, she FAILS to camping super hard. She can't camp anyone. Seriously, tell a GOOD player to camp Zelda, and try to "force them to approach" with Din's Fire. LOLOLOLOLOL. Just watch Zelda do that little arm motion and powershield it on release. It cannot force any types of approaches in singles on any character.

At any rate, I'd say Zelda compliments Sheik very well. Ninjalink's Zelda is a beast btw. And no, he did not beat my Marth with it.

We dont have 6-4 with Marth >_> We have 35-65 Marth. What are you talking about?

Rrrm....nobody is saying that Dins is good for forcing approaches :\ We all know it sucks. But, it actually does force approaches on DDD and IC to an extent, one of the reasons why Zelda does ok in those matchups. You obviously know nothing about her and are passing judgement on the Zelda community.

We already know thats why she is low tier, but you still have yet to evaluate why she is bottom F tier with Falcon Link and Ganon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Everbody keeps talking about how Snake is "limited" and how MK has "lots of options" without elaborating. I'm getting around to realize that those are probably dummy arguments to justify bias.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ZSS also has no solid approaches, and fails against camping, though her tools are still good. I'm very aware of her masterful airgame.

ZSS players are aware that she misses tools to help against camping, that's why Falco is considered a hard counter, but often people forget that if it's 65:35 ZSS still has the ability to win. It's not even near impossible.

However, how is a bair with more range then marths fair considered a bad approach? And approaches towards her are easily retaliated with her set of anti air moves, and fast tilts against grounded characters, besides powerful specials.
Also if he goes for a shield grab a sideB is really safe.

I don't get the feeling you know ZSS all that well.

 

[Pierce7d]

We dont have 6-4 with Marth >_> We have 35-65 Marth. What are you talking about?

Rrrm....nobody is saying that Dins is good for forcing approaches :\ We all know it sucks. But, it actually does force approaches on DDD and IC to an extent, one of the reasons why Zelda does ok in those matchups. You obviously know nothing about her and are passing judgement on the Zelda community.

We already know thats why she is low tier, but you still have yet to evaluate why she is bottom F tier with Falcon Link and Ganon.

D3, no. IC, maybe. Nana is annoyingly inconsistent, but desynched Ice Blocks seem to be more effective, and since Zelda loses control of Din's when she gets hit . . .

And I was simply taking the MU ratio from what someone else posted earlier in the thread, what had a lot of MUs that seemed highly biased.

Now, if that very ridiculous list is not what's on the Zelda boards, and not the opinion of the community, I apologize for foolishly insulting the whole of the Zelda community off of one players illusions.

Gheb, against the good characters, Snake works like this:

He cannot reliably jump at you. If he hits you with an aerial when he's above you, it's because you messed up. Bair has great priority and positioning, but it's easily shielded, and pivot grabbed.

This means Snake is primarily forced to approach from the floor. Now, he compensates for this with an awesome anti-air dash attack, an ftilt of doom, awesome jab, and counter-attack grenades which amplify his grab game. Still, this isn't really enough to counter-act the mobility and safety of most of the other good characters and their air game.

Now, Snake has another layer of playing because he has a lot of stage control through grenades (and other remote explosives). But, I personally think this is highly over-rated. People over-fear grenades, and I watch pros sometimes shield for an entire two of the three seconds a grenade is active. Also, Diddy players have not yet caught onto punishing first hit ftilt with banana toss. It comes out before second hit.

You'd be mistaken to think I don't know ZSS, considering I've learned quite a bit about that character from Snakeee. I'm going out, but when I get back, I'll talk about ZSS more. I'm interested in your opinion on the character.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You'd be mistaken to think I don't know ZSS, considering I've learned quite a bit about that character from Snakeee. I'm going out, but when I get back, I'll talk about ZSS more. I'm interested in your opinion on the character.

Was just sayin' that it seemed like you don't.
You're a ZSS prodigy for all I know, would love to get the mist around her gone once and for all.

 

[Justblaze647]

Here now, I know I've been right about this since the games release, but no one wanted to heed my opinion. Just like how I was saying since the game's conception that WAS NOT the worst character in the game, but everyone was feeling so butt hurt because he got nerfed. So look, I'm going to present some facts (slightly influenced by my personal opinion) and show SWF why Jiggz is the worst character in brawl.

On the ground, Jiggz is perhaps the worst excuse for a smash character ever. She has very little to no range, less speed, and ridiculously low knockback/power. Every one of her tilts is only about half a step above useless, and all are impossible to hit a reasonably intelligent opponent with. Dash attack might as well not even be there. Same thing with the jab. I personally think her down smash is her best one, but it doesnt matter because none of her smashes hit either. They are too slow and have no range. Rollout on the ground is like screaming at your opponent to jump, or shield grab. Pound is easily her best move, on the ground or in the air, but on the ground it moves slower and doesn't have as much range to it. Then there's Sing and Rest. Nuff said.

In the air, well, she's better here than on the ground. Her aerial mobility is above average, but the fact that the range of all of her moves is so poor forces her into a dangerous position every time she wants to deal damage. Not to mention the fact that she's not very good at racking up damage. dair is her best bet for this in the air, followed closely by bair. Fair "should" be the kill move in any given situation. Uair is also nothing special. Rollout is better in the air than on the ground, and can produce kills at reasonable percent, but is still EXTREMELY situational. Pound is also better in the air, but its more of a juggle set up than a kill set up.Then there's Sing and Rest. Nuff said.

Also, I realize this is not a tier list, nor is it meant to be referred to as such, but...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Why is it that a character, who is not the worst character in the game, performs worse than any other character in a tournament setting, which is supposed to assume the highest level of play? Isn't that what the tier list is supposed to reflect, along with character interactions? I am not so clear on this, but what kind of MU's does jiggz take an advantage in? and why/how?

I said all of that to say this... Jiggz sux lol

 

[CRASHiC]

Jiggs doesn't suck, she can air camp like a *****. THe issue with jiggs tournament placing is that those who would main her main Wario. You also have to remember that even Ankoku admits that her list is inaccurate and can't be taken as the end all of data.

 

[clowsui]

Jiggs doesn't suck, she can air camp like a *****. THe issue with jiggs tournament placing is that those who would main her main Wario. You also have to remember that even Ankoku admits that her list is inaccurate and can't be taken as the end all of data.

uhhh...

10lmaos

also jiggs blows...few disjointeds, terrible on the ledge, can't really trap effectively due to piss poor range

 

[CRASHiC]

edit- nevermind

 

[Magik0722]

1. Bored (Ike)
2. LeeMartin (Ike/Falcon)
3. Xyro (Samus)
4. Inui (Ike)
5. Vex (Bowser)
9. Brett (Ike)

ike out of low tier please

 

[Alphicans]

@Justblaze, I really don't think tournament results should really factor in that much in making a tier list. Unlike Ganon and Falcon, Jiggs actually has some approach options. Also unlike both of these characters she doesn't have the same ****ty *** match-ups, which is what a tier list should be based on.

 

[Justblaze647]

Jiggs doesn't suck, she can air camp like a *****. THe issue with jiggs tournament placing is that those who would main her main Wario. You also have to remember that even Ankoku admits that her list is inaccurate and can't be taken as the end all of data.

No. Jiggz does suck. Wario air camps like a *****, which is why those who "would" play Jiggz main Wario instead because he is the better character.

Edit: @ Alphicans: Tournament results should factor into making a tier list, b/c that is when the game is being played "at the highest level." Also, please clarify which matchups are (even slightly) in Jiggz favor.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jigglypuff goes close to even with MK, King Dedede and Diddy Kong. That's a lot more than other bottom tiers can say....

 

[CRASHiC]

Don't compare her to those above her.
Compare her to the other low tiers.
Who can't she camp out in low tier?
There is no way Jiggz is the worst in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, against the good characters, Snake works like this:

He cannot reliably jump at you. If he hits you with an aerial when he's above you, it's because you messed up. Bair has great priority and positioning, but it's easily shielded, and pivot grabbed.

This means Snake is primarily forced to approach from the floor. Now, he compensates for this with an awesome anti-air dash attack, an ftilt of doom, awesome jab, and counter-attack grenades which amplify his grab game. Still, this isn't really enough to counter-act the mobility and safety of most of the other good characters and their air game.

Now, Snake has another layer of playing because he has a lot of stage control through grenades (and other remote explosives). But, I personally think this is highly over-rated. People over-fear grenades, and I watch pros sometimes shield for an entire two of the three seconds a grenade is active. Also, Diddy players have not yet caught onto punishing first hit ftilt with banana toss. It comes out before second hit.

I disagree with a lot of the things you say. His options aren't enough to counter-act the safety and mobility of other characters? That's wrong. Laying one grenade on the ground already beats most grounded approaches in this game and as you said his dash attack (but also his pivot grab) is amazing against aerials so those two moves already cover many options. Characters with items in their hands are the ONLY ones who can punish first hit ftilt and all those characters have a natural disadvantage against Snake (Diddy, Peach, ROB, the Links...) anyway. Snake can use usmash and dash attack to either prevent aerial approaches or make them really predictable which can easily lead into a dthrow techchase if the opponent makes a slight mistake.
His damage output still flat out ***** any other character and so does his KO power and his survivability. His weight, dmg output and his KO power alone make him easily A-Tier but the fact that first hit ftilt can only be punished by 2 viable characters (and only if they have an item), that he can cover most grounded approaches with a single grenade, that he can stall most aerial approaches with usmash and has good OoS options ... this makes up for many of the limitations that people seem to see in that character.

Also, I love how you mention that playing Ally showed you Snake's limitations but in the end there are only very few people that can beat Ally - not because Snake is limited but because they're incredible players. If he is that limited then people SHOULD be able to abuse those limitations. I have yet to see anybody doing it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Jigglypuff goes close to even with MK, King Dedede and Diddy Kong.

Vids, or it never happened.

 

[CRASHiC]

Jiggs versus Metaknight is ridiculous. Have you ever played the matchup? All Jiggs has to do is press down b.

Spoiler

<3 Gates

 

[Justblaze647]

Somehow I dont believe you. Show me.

 

[CRASHiC]

Well, I was joking, though the matchup is better than you would expect.
If I remember correctly, Jiggs can rest Metaknight's forward air by SDI ing inward and using her invincibility frames, and she can also down b the tornado.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Just want to respond to what gheb said.

You can't make something predictable, not even with snakes usmash.

Something IS predictable or not, you don't make it predictable. Usmash can limit options, yes, but not so that there's only 1 thing to do left. (which is predictable)

 

[Justblaze647]

@ CRASHiC: I will reiterate...

Vids, or it never happened.

 

[SuSa]

Just want to respond to what gheb said.

You can't make something predictable, not even with snakes usmash.

Something IS predictable or not, you don't make it predictable. Usmash can limit options, yes, but not so that there's only 1 thing to do left. (which is predictable)

When you have 5 options, 3 are taken away, and the other gets you hit, and your last gets you hit if predicted. Which option do you use?

The one that gets predicted and you get hit anyways.

That's kind of how Snake works. He takes a bit out of your options, and only has to read out of your remaining few. After a few times of forcing you into that option, the Snake should know how you react. Even if you mix it up.

Oh, and dthrow is still underrated by people I think. The 11 characters that have an away-towards attack are patheticly easy to chase save D3 and Falco (stupid far rolls...)

You don't have to shield until you see+hear the getup attack (yes, you can hear it)
If they roll behind you, it's a free grab on reaction.
If they roll away, almost all of them are ****ed. (Falco is ****ed if we grab release CG'd him to the edge of the stage)
If you see them move in place, but DO NOT HEAR the sound. Just grab, they were doing their standing animation.

If they don't react, many can be jab>grabbed (which works more then you think. I need to do frame data for jab > grab and jab > ftilt. I think certain parts of the jab's hitbox lets you get the grab/ftilt. Except against characters like Marth and have something like his up-B. Quick, with invincibility frames on startup...)

If Jab>Grab isn't working, you can dair them.

If they SDI the dair, you can dtilt/utilt them.

Toon Link, Link, DDD, Falco, G&W, Fox, Sheik, Wolf, Ivysaur? (IIRC), Yoshi, Wario

All have away-towards attacks. The ones that matter:
DDD, Falco, Wario

I just need more practice vs DDD. I get Falco's and Wario's.

Oh, and for characters like Olimar - their getup attack is so slow, you can still powershield it by LISTENING TO THE SOUND. No sound is a normal getup, grab it. Olimar's rolls suck ***.
(Squirtle and Charizard apply to this. Except for Squirtle you take 1 step away and he's an away-towards attacker. Charizard you just shield and react)

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

Lol, diddy better than MK?

IC better than snake?

this is messed up

 

[chimpact]

diddy players do banana OoS against snake's first hit of ftilt.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

Jigglypuff goes close to even with MK, King Dedede and Diddy Kong. That's a lot more than other bottom tiers can say....

MK has a 65:35 advantage against jiggs. that isn't close to even. all MK has to do is try to out-space it. If MK has good spacing there is nothing jiggs can do.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

When you have 5 options, 3 are taken away, and the other gets you hit, and your last gets you hit if predicted. Which option do you use?

The one that gets predicted and you get hit anyways.

That's kind of how Snake works. He takes a bit out of your options, and only has to read out of your remaining few. After a few times of forcing you into that option, the Snake should know how you react. Even if you mix it up.

So you're saying that after watching you do something a few times Snake players become mind readers? Because he KNOWS how you react, even if you mix it up, like a mind reader, right?

Oh, and dthrow is still underrated by people I think. The 11 characters that have an away-towards attack are patheticly easy to chase save D3 and Falco (stupid far rolls...)

You don't have to shield until you see+hear the getup attack (yes, you can hear it)
If they roll behind you, it's a free grab on reaction.
If they roll away, almost all of them are ****ed. (Falco is ****ed if we grab release CG'd him to the edge of the stage)
If you see them move in place, but DO NOT HEAR the sound. Just grab, they were doing their standing animation.

I think you know nothing about mixing your options up.
You can't react to these things on time, if that was the case ally would rack 999% damage by just 1 dthrow and techchasing, it's not true. You don't do that either. YOU CANT.

If they don't react, many can be jab>grabbed (which works more then you think. I need to do frame data for jab > grab and jab > ftilt. I think certain parts of the jab's hitbox lets you get the grab/ftilt. Except against characters like Marth and have something like his up-B. Quick, with invincibility frames on startup...)

If Jab>Grab isn't working, you can dair them.

If they SDI the dair, you can dtilt/utilt them.

Toon Link, Link, DDD, Falco, G&W, Fox, Sheik, Wolf, Ivysaur? (IIRC), Yoshi, Wario

All have away-towards attacks. The ones that matter:
DDD, Falco, Wario

I just need more practice vs DDD. I get Falco's and Wario's.

Oh, and for characters like Olimar - their getup attack is so slow, you can still powershield it by LISTENING TO THE SOUND. No sound is a normal getup, grab it. Olimar's rolls suck ***.
(Squirtle and Charizard apply to this. Except for Squirtle you take 1 step away and he's an away-towards attacker. Charizard you just shield and react)

So why haven't I EVER seen a Snake use dair against a target on the ground after a Dthrow?

Yeah I knew about the away-towards attacks, that's a pretty nice thingy to know, but even if it's away-towards the hits can be so close to each other it's not even funny.

Olimar and charizard are laugh-able in tech-chasing true, especially charizard, that backroll makes me happy every time I see it

 

[Justblaze647]

You guys are missing the whole point of this end of the thread...

Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game.

 

[Maniclysane]

Well, I was joking, though the matchup is better than you would expect.
If I remember correctly, Jiggs can rest Metaknight's forward air by SDI ing inward and using her invincibility frames, and she can also down b the tornado.

Her dair outreaches MK's uair, I thiiiiiink she can rest him out of nair too. You could probably rest him out of drill rush too. The only Jigglies that can/could consistently perfect rest were Veril, and I think Susa mentioned being able to do it. Veril play's B+ now though.

The matchup that changed the most drastically for Jiggly with perfect resting was the Diddy matchup. His dash attack is easy to rest, his usmash, his fsmash, along with her naturally never touching the ground unless its to refresh her jumps or grab her opponent. I truly believe Jiggly has a 60:40 advantage on Diddy kong.

I also believe Jiggly has a straight 50:50 with King D3. Her aerial mobility lets her weave in and out, poking D3. His size makes him perfect for rests, and she can rest through his uair, dair, and she can punish his upb landing easily with rest, assuming he doesn't go for the edge.

I don't think Jiggly is even with MK. I would call it 60:40 MK. I would ask a more experienced Jiggly like PND Mike.

MK has a 65:35 advantage against jiggs. that isn't close to even. all MK has to do is try to out-space it. If MK has good spacing there is nothing jiggs can do.

Get *****. People said the same thing in Melee. "if marf haz good spacing jigz is trash lol." Theres things like baiting and punishing. Stop being garbage at theory craft.

 

[Justblaze647]

What are you basing these match up ratios on? Intuition?

Also there is no such thing as a perfect rest.