The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~

[Milln]

You're too easy.

You're too slow. I also get tired of arguing with someone who's too ignorant to acknowledge that something actually happens a decent percent of the time.


Uair is great. =o Even if they do airdodge your uair, you can follow them and get a free, guaranteed dair. =D

 

[tedward2000]

And....
New topic.

If you wern't done with FP and DT no worries, you can still post about it, But please note that this is about Up-tilt or maybe just The Tilts.

I'll up date what I can for DT and FP tomorrow.

Happy Halloween fyiz.
-t2

 

[Greenpoe]

Up-tilt is a great move to do upon landing.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

So uh, Utilt.

It's, like, sexy to use OOS. One of Lucci's best GTFO moves.

 

[Milln]

Utilt is great for killing rolls, and I second that it's a good move to do upon landing especially after a whiffed aerial.

 

[Greenpoe]

Utilt is great for killing rolls, and I second that it's a good move to do upon landing especially after a whiffed aerial.

But if you know where they'll roll, dash attack is better (fast startup & long hitbox).

 

[Kitamerby]

But if you know where they'll roll, dash attack is better (fast startup & long hitbox).

Dash Attack is NEVER better.

 

[Milln]

But if you know where they'll roll, dash attack is better (fast startup & long hitbox).

Nuh, i'm talking about i'm standing where their roll will take them and poke at them until they roll. Utilt they're vulnerability frames.

 

[Timbers]

You're too slow. I also get tired of arguing with someone who's too ignorant to acknowledge that something actually happens a decent percent of the time.

i'm not ignorant for not agreeing with you. I laid out frame data supporting why forcepalm is still punishable..moreso than a grab, which I think is better than "it just happens." You can look at your videos you posted if you really want to, good amount of time your forcepalms get punished Where a grab would have been safe on whiff.


Utilt is character specific for me. In general, utilt is good on landing. Is a good move to snatch characters attempt to pressure your shield, and has very good knockback properties.

Still character dependent. Trying to use this on Snake, for example, is difficult. It has considerably less range than Snake's ftilt (and utilt) and is also slower.

Then compare it to say, Wario, where you want to use this move a lot to get him out of your space.

 

[Kappie]

Spotdodge -> Uptilt?
Spotdodge -> D-Air?
Spotdodge -> turn around AAA?
Spotdodge -> turn around Ftilt?

 

[Fizzle]

It's important to note that utilt's rear hitbox is definitely not safe on shield.

i.e. suppose you and your opponent are in a spotdodge battle with your opponent facing your rear. While utilt is very fast (4 or 5 frames or something), if it's shielded you're pretty screwed. IIRC utilt's animation is even longer than ftilt's.

But, yes, great for roll punishing, great for quick juggles, and awesome oos.

 

[Milln]

i'm not ignorant for not agreeing with you. I laid out frame data supporting why forcepalm is still punishable..moreso than a grab, which I think is better than "it just happens." You can look at your videos you posted if you really want to, good amount of time your forcepalms get punished Where a grab would have been safe on whiff.

Actually, a good amount of my forcepalms that miss the grab actually connect with the flame in my videos. Grab is never safe on whiff vs. Spotdodge.

 

[phi1ny3]

I lurv utilt! Ya, I use it sometimes in reverse after standard A stuff.

 

[Greenpoe]

Actually, a good amount of my forcepalms that miss the grab actually connect with the flame in my videos. Grab is never safe on whiff vs. Spotdodge.

In my games today, I tried using grabs like usual, then tried using FP instead of grab, and I have to side with Milln. When I missed a grab (spotdodge ftl), they easily punished, but when they spotdodged my FP, they got hit by the flame. I know by the statistics doing a regular grab looks better, but I prefer FP-grab, because it isn't about just numbers: Mindgames and mixups are just as important. Besides, you can stutterstep a Force Palm grab to double the range. Also, Lucario has the worst standing grab range in the game, and takes 14 frames total for a standing grab. Lucario's dash grab is one of the shortest dashgrabs in the game, and it takes 19 frames.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

This is the move I work to use more often. It gives Lucario a STUPENDOUS option for attacking enemies behind him. If you hit at low percents, you get to juggle, if you hit at high percents, you probably got higher damage on it since your aura's up and then you get to try to mess him up with aerials. Utilt is an amazing move. My favorite thing about it is the speed at which it strikes enemies behind you. Good for punishing rolls. Like AS charge but safer, imo.

 

[nightSN]

uptilt is retardedly good : D just watch for those spot dodgers

 

[Samuelson]

Uthrow>Utilt>repeat

I get lots of people with this. For some reason they will try to attack you instead of using good DI. If they attack you can shield grab and then Uthrow>Utilt again. It works wonders if you ask me and i prefer it to FPCG.

 

[tedward2000]

I'm a lair.
I didn't up-date this weekend, shame on me.

As for Uptilt, I find it more in the range of defensive.
It juggles, so you could Up-tilt(x2) then grab, and f-throw. Effectively giving damage and throwing him away from you letting you charge a AS or fire one.

It will stop most moves, and it arc's so it covers a wide spot.

or maybe more neutral, letting you follow up with an attack, rather than sitting there and charge ahoy.

-t2

 

[ckm]

I think we should go back to talking about FPG. Just because people were arguing doesnt mean it isn't worth discussing. Probably the other way around.

My 2 cents on the FPG spotdodge issue:

If the opponent is spotdodging your FPG consistently, YOU ARE DOING TOO MUCH FPG! Do something else out of your jabs! Finish the jab combo! Charge up a dsmash, and punish their dodge! Or (my personal favorite), do fair > dair after jab, jab.

I also have to agree with Timbers-- the normal grab is considerably safer against opponents that know to expect FP after jab, jab. That doesn't mean FP is not a good option... but I find myself using grab more (and being more successful with it) against opponents that are familiar with jab, jab, FP.

Question:

Are you guys using crouch to cancel your jab combo?


As far as uptilt goes, I have to agree with whoever said it is a good move to use upon landing. Watch Azen's vids, hes really good at spacing/timing his landing, and gets a lot of uptilts in this way.

I also agree with the person that said grab out of uptilt is good! I see alot of Lucario players using uptilt combos for longer than they should, and eventually their opponent gets out and punishes them. I think a shieldgrab is a good way to keep these upward juggle combos going. Practicing turnaround grabs really helps for this, in case they DI behind you.

 

[Samuelson]

I also agree with the person that said grab out of uptilt is good!

That would be me!

 

[supergamer001]

UTilt does put them in the perfect position for a grab, much better option than Utilt spam into Uair or Usmash.

 

[Kitamerby]

Utilt is a great move that can serve a wide variety of purposes, as well as being one of if not Lucario's best OoS option.

 

[G-Beast]

utilt is a fast, excellent oos option, almost always pwns those blasted rollie ollie pollie's, and can be chained multiple times @ low %.

also serves as a great tool to when people think its a great idea to attack from behind at really close range. everyone knows this, but its great to know that it hits BEHIND you first and then in front of you

 

[Timbers]

Grab is never safe on whiff vs. Spotdodge.

Of course it isn't. It's entirely up to you if you'd rather risk the extra frames on afterlag to be punished though. Some good examples would be whiffing forcepalm (flame) and being GaW dsmash, DDD utilted, DK dsmash, Wario fsmash, Kirby fsmash. Whiffing a grab will usually get you grabbed yourself, which is hardly as fatal as the earlier examples.

Totally up to you, both are punishable. Both have different degrees of punishment.

Besides, you can stutterstep a Force Palm grab to double the range. Also, Lucario has the worst standing grab range in the game, and takes 14 frames total for a standing grab. Lucario's dash grab is one of the shortest dashgrabs in the game, and it takes 19 frames.

Not sure where you grabbed these stats from >_>

Luc's standing grab is 6 frames. iirc his running grab is 8 frames.

Forcepalm grab does not extend in range when pivoted.

 

[TK Wolf]

What are people's thoughts on dsmash? I'd really like to find a use for it... but I've got nothing...

It seems like in nearly every situation, fsmash is better than dsmash. It's 4 frames faster though... maybe the timing can mess up some spot-dodgers or something? I tried the thing where in the middle of a pivot out of a run, you dsmash, but that doesn't look very useful to me since it effectively makes the range shorter and the startup longer.

Has anyone been able to reliably use dsmash for anything? If not... can we come up with anything that might work?

 

[Samuelson]

When i roll off the ledge i will sometimes use Dsmash right after the roll animation stops. I get a nice KO every once in a while because of that. If i break somebody's shield i will use Dsmash instead of Fsmash since Fsmash is most likely diminished.

 

[Kitamerby]

What are people's thoughts on dsmash? I'd really like to find a use for it... but I've got nothing...

It seems like in nearly every situation, fsmash is better than dsmash. It's 4 frames faster though... maybe the timing can mess up some spot-dodgers or something? I tried the thing where in the middle of a pivot out of a run, you dsmash, but that doesn't look very useful to me since it effectively makes the range shorter and the startup longer.

Has anyone been able to reliably use dsmash for anything? If not... can we come up with anything that might work?

Use Dsmash when you can't decide which way to Fsmash.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Idk.... I use it a lot. And it works. I'll watch myself next time I play.

 

[Timbers]

Dsmash is good against characters who are heavy on airdodging into you. Like, take a character like Snake. You've positioned yourself where if he lands in front of you he risks getting his landing frames eaten by fsmash, so he tries to DI behind you while airdodging a possible aerial to intercept him. You dsmash, he gets hit. Can work for other characters and players who are heavy on airdodging instead of offensive measures. That Snake can always land right on top of you with a bair, so it's smart to know how your opponent plays before trying it.


Alternatively you could dsmash on the ledge I guess. If it's shielded they fall down and you're safe.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree, I also like how it has no side-switch lag like Marths dsmash, because it hits both sides simultaneously. btw, It seems to have a deceptive hitbox imo, 'cuz I've hit ppl that weren't at the blasts.

 

[Ilucamy]

About the D-smash thing, I've been overusing it lately in an effort to find any effective uses for it. So far, it's not going well. I've come to realize the significant cooldown lag on it, it gets me punished and shieldgrabbed a lot. The startup lag is bad too, they can see it coming and will shield it. Then you're gonna get punished. The only use I found for it was kinda just a funny/gimmicky thing. I actually dodged a few high-aiming aerials with it, but then they punished the afterlag (I thought it was kinda funny though). Overall: D-Smash, powerful if you can land it, but it's too laggy and easily punished.

 

[tedward2000]

Urrggaaa....

So, yea, I guess I'm really a liar. I still havent updated. I'm just going to john about being busy, which is quite true.

But I'm glad that this discussion can go on without me needed to post a new topic every week.
So thanks For those that have made it successful thus far!!
Keep it up!

(and I promise to update really fricken soon)
-t2

 

[TK Wolf]

I tried working in some dsmashes again, and it's not too shabby. In situations where I'm too close for an fsmash, but see an opening for something more than a jab/tilt, it's worked reasonably well. And the 4 frame advantage over fsmash isn't too bad either.

Been trying to use FP a little more as well. It's okay, but when whiffed I often find myself getting punished for it. I haven't been landing KOs with it though. Even when both me and my opp are around 100%.

 

[Timbers]

With DI, I need the opponent to be at like 170 and me around 140 or something to get a kill from it. It's hella easy to DI the fpg.

Still a good damage racker in the higher percents, and it has net me some kills. It's character dependent though. Anyone with a 2/3 frame nair/jab gets out of it really easily.

 

[Greenpoe]

Dsmash is good against characters who are heavy on airdodging into you. Like, take a character like Snake. You've positioned yourself where if he lands in front of you he risks getting his landing frames eaten by fsmash, so he tries to DI behind you while airdodging a possible aerial to intercept him. You dsmash, he gets hit. Can work for other characters and players who are heavy on airdodging instead of offensive measures. That Snake can always land right on top of you with a bair, so it's smart to know how your opponent plays before trying it.


Alternatively you could dsmash on the ledge I guess. If it's shielded they fall down and you're safe.

This is incredibly good advice (I was wrecked by a Snake using airdodges to get by me yesterday).

You can pull off a dash-attack to d-smash if you hit with the dash-attack's weak hit. Though it is potentially punishable, if you can predict them, it'll payoff.

 

[Greenpoe]

Luc's standing grab is 6 frames. iirc his running grab is 8 frames.

Forcepalm grab does not extend in range when pivoted.

When I said stutter step, I didn't mean pivot (there's at least 3 types of sutter-steps, IIRC), just smash forward and B so Lucario will take a step forward (just like stutter stepping an F-smash) then he'll FP, but if you space it wrong, you can step through your opponent. ;_;

 

[Timbers]

When I said stutter step, I didn't mean pivot (there's at least 3 types of sutter-steps, IIRC), just smash forward and B so Lucario will take a step forward (just like stutter stepping an F-smash) then he'll FP, but if you space it wrong, you can step through your opponent. ;_;

Well forcepalm's range never increases, you just move closer to the opponent.

I assumed you meant pivot, as regular grabs extend in range when pivoted. I assumed you were treating forcepalm like a normal grab.

 

[TK Wolf]

Is it possible to perform a pivot grab without sliding away from the opponent? From my understanding, pivot grab = run, turn the opposite direction and grab at the same time. But the distance you slide away is more than the extra grabrange you get, right?

 

[Pr0phetic]

Utilt. My, my, my... It combos into another Utilt, and another one... etc.

On a serious note, it racks damage very quickly, combos into Lord knows what, and is a mindgame in itself (tis and Dair scare people)

 

[phi1ny3]

Utilt. My, my, my... It combos into another Utilt, and another one... etc.

On a serious note, it racks damage very quickly, combos into Lord knows what, and is a mindgame in itself (tis and Dair scare people)

tis also a good oos option, and a good roll punisher.
ಠ_ಠ