Wobbling Compromise

[pockyD]

you'll probably do a dash attack if they're out of sync.
other wise, just tell nana to breath ice to avoid any possibility.

or do you mean to re-sync them? because you cant wobble until their synced anyway.

by 'sync' i mean the proper rhythm needed for an infinite

so what if their headbutts+ftilts are simultaneous?

 

[KAOSTAR]

watch me and every other person who plays this game who arent being overly antagonistic on purpose do just that.

and if you must have a number, then 1. if you do more than 1 tilt/headbut in a row you are wobbling.

can you please just tell us how wobbling has been proven to make IC easy bread winners.

then we don't even have to discuss this anymore.

 

[Roneblaster]

by 'sync' i mean the proper rhythm needed for an infinite

so what if their headbutts+ftilts are simultaneous?

then its not wobbling, because you can mash out.

can you please just tell us how wobbling has been proven to make IC easy bread winners.

then we don't even have to discuss this anymore.

no1 tactic makes a character unbeatable.

you can keep trying though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

then its not wobbling, because you can mash out.



no1 tactic makes a character unbeatable.

you can keep trying though.

then its not ban worthy. you just admitted it was good, but still beatable.

thank you
/close

 

[Roneblaster]

we play the game, people do more than 1 thing.

we can argue in circles all you want.

they dont need it to win.

see this circle were going in?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Except, you have basically no argument...


You have yet to give a legitimate reason why wobbling needs a ban.

 

[KAOSTAR]

thats irrelevant tho.

are you sure you aren't trying to close this thread?

its you being stupid, not a circular argument. your piece isn't valid and easily countered.

shine is too good, fox would be worse but still better than IC without it.

same for rest l
and lasers.

you still haven't given a reason to take wobbling away. only a blanket statement that means nothing, who cares if they don't need it. with it they aren't over powered or unbeatable.

 

[Roneblaster]

im hashing this out with pocky right now.

one moment please.

 

[pockyD]

just a sample

(2:01:56 AM) horizonflash: so if they start wobbling
(2:01:59 AM) horizonflash: then mess up after 30%
(2:02:02 AM) horizonflash: you can't punish it
(2:02:05 AM) horizonflash: and that's one of your gripes?
(2:02:09 AM) Reneblade91: yes.

 

[Roneblaster]

we discovered something.

some of my biggest problems with wobbling is that it is unpunishable and unsurvivable.

this is sounding like a therapy session, wtf?


were going to bed.

nothing has changed at this point. we're closer, but my beliefs remain steadfast.

(lol no homo)

 

[Lovage]

just a sample

(2:01:56 AM) horizonflash: so if they start wobbling
(2:01:59 AM) horizonflash: then mess up after 30%
(2:02:02 AM) horizonflash: you can't punish it
(2:02:05 AM) horizonflash: and that's one of your gripes?
(2:02:09 AM) Reneblade91: yes.

nice font ***ot

 

[adumbrodeus]

we discovered something.

some of my biggest problems with wobbling is that it is unpunishable and unsurvivable.

this is sounding like a therapy session, wtf?


were going to bed.

nothing has changed at this point. we're closer, but my beliefs remain steadfast.

(lol no homo)

Well, I can think of a number of things that are unpunishable and unsurvivable when the combo actually starts, many of which are far more powerful overall.

But the combo starter (the grab) is very punishable if you can make it whiff, which when you're talking about the ICs is pretty easy.

 

[PottyJokes]

**** man if only wobbling were banned then roneblaster* could actually start doing well at tourneys!

 

[Ballistics]

Peef your compromise is better than mine admittedly and through reading this whole discussion I've realized that a compromise only accentuates the ridiculousness of the ban in the first place along with the ridiculousness of having to write a compromise at all. If anything my belief in no ban at all has been reinforced ten fold.

If I missed anyone in the OP who contributed to the thread with their opinion, or if you want what I have you quoted for change, let me know and I'll edit it.

Hopefully if you go to a tournament that ban's wobbling or vice versa and you don't like the outcome, you can print the OP out with everyone's opinion and the list of compromises and see what the TO is willing to do.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im more impressed at how actively you updated the OP.

Nice work, nice conclusion.

/unban

but my tag is only 1 word lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Peef your compromise is better than mine admittedly and through reading this whole discussion I've realized that a compromise only accentuates the ridiculousness of the ban in the first place along with the ridiculousness of having to write a compromise at all. If anything my belief in no ban at all has been reinforced ten fold.

If I missed anyone in the OP who contributed to the thread with their opinion, or if you want what I have you quoted for change, let me know and I'll edit it.

Hopefully if you go to a tournament that ban's wobbling or vice versa and you don't like the outcome, you can print the OP out with everyone's opinion and the list of compromises and see what the TO is willing to do.

Could I get a more intelligent-sounding sounbyte for my name? Please? I think I contributed more intelligent stuff to this thread.

 

[_lemons]

In "Peef's Great Compromise", are all non-neutrals b&? Or just the ones generally accepted to be a little whack?

Basically, what's the take on Pokemon Stadium?

 

[Oracle]

With stage strinking PS isn't neutral

 

[Ballistics]

Could I get a more intelligent-sounding sounbyte for my name? Please? I think I contributed more intelligent stuff to this thread.

Haha I really liked the hat statement. Let me know what statement you'd like to replace it with.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I absolutely love how every single quote from anti wobbling completely avoids addressing the need for the ban in the first place.

 

[BigD!!!]

the compromise doesnt need to be a rule

sit down next to an ic player, say, "hey, if you dont wobble, i wont take you to brinstar or cruise for my counterpick"

if they say yes, it worked, if they dont, then take them to the level

the only stickiness in this situation is if people abuse the fact that it isnt an official rule and double cross the guy, rob$ style

 

[S l o X]

never heard of that rob$ thing but it sounds hilariously wrong (**** move).

also, I'd do that compromise (as a fox / sheik) but chances are, if they know they're worst than you they won't, hoping to land some grabs (kills).

im waiting for someone (a wobbler / nonwobbler, doesn't matter) to answer Nintendude's question.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Haha I really liked the hat statement. Let me know what statement you'd like to replace it with.

Ok, if you like, then slightly retooled, "if wobbling makes ICs win nationals, I'll eat my hat".

 

[a13c]

If the ICs had an otherwise worthless grab game, I might say allow it, but they already have a bunch of different tricksies they can do with grabs that take much more skill than wobbling. I'd rather see an awesome IC player get a grab and do a bunch of crazy well-timed chain grab stuff and finish off with predicting a tech into a wavedash downsmash than an amazing IC get a grab and punch their opponent until they are high enough to smash attack out of a throw for a guaranteed kill.

good point

NO WOBBLING!

ITS DUMB AND DOESNT TAKE THAT MUCH SKILL. so in conclusion please leave it the way it was banned.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

since when do we ban things because characters "don't need it" or "doesn't take much skill."

both of these are subjective and not criteria for a ban.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

As a TO, the thing about wobbling is

If I leave it on, I get complaints from a lot of people

If I ban it, the only person affected is Fly who is our regions only active IC player and he doesn't even complain.

 

[Nintendude]

As a TO, the thing about wobbling is

If I leave it on, I get complaints from a lot of people

If I ban it, the only person affected is Fly who is our regions only active IC player and he doesn't even complain.

I'm pretty sure this is the case everywhere. I don't think there are any regions with more than 2 active ICs players, and in many places there are none that are any good. The problem is that every non-IC player secretly prefers wobbling banned, even if they do believe it is fair, because wobbling being banned helps every non-IC player. So, obviously pretty much everyone will be happy with a TO that bans Wobbling.

The TO ultimately must decide between appealing to the crowd or doing what he truly thinks is fair, and it's easy to just appeal to the crowd since you wouldn't really get any complaints. However, just because ICs players are a minority doesn't mean that they should get cheated. Also, even if people complain, I doubt they'd stop going to your tournaments just because they might run into Fly and get wobbled.

For the record, even if I didn't use ICs I would still be against the ban because I think it's a really scrubby thing to do. I still wish it didn't exist because it's a pretty stupid technique, but as a player trying to win it'd be foolish to not use it if it was unbanned.

 

[john!]

^ that is a really good post

 

[KirbyKaze]

As a TO, the thing about wobbling is

If I leave it on, I get complaints from a lot of people

If I ban it, the only person affected is Fly who is our regions only active IC player and he doesn't even complain.

Awww fuck, we lose. It's an appeal to the ignorant masses.

We're screwed guys.

Oh well. Now that wobbling will be banned forever, I say we work on Rest and mash this game into a mutilated, scrubtastic corpse.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

It's not the ignorant masses

People like HugS were complaining about it.

 

[pockyD]

everyone's just looking out for their own interests

 

[KirbyKaze]

Armada says that Jigglypuff should be banned.

I guess it's Armada though so it's legitimate concern that should be taken seriously, right?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I should probably elaborate

I have no strong opinion on wobbling. Both the the pro-ban and anti-ban arguments make sense to me. However, if the masses don't like it and even some of the top players in the region don't like it (It's been a long time since I had it on so the only specific example I remember is Hugo), I don't see why I should keep it on to please the 1 IC main.

So then it comes down to people telling me "Well you should keep it on because it's not broken" and "You should ban it because it's broken". Then it just returns to the beginning of the above paragraph and in that case, of course I'll go with the majority.

 

[CloneHat]

You can't just ban something perfectly legitimate because of majority rule.

Most people don't like getting rested. Why bother keeping it in just to please a few Jiggs players? She doesn't NEED it anyway.

 

[P.C. Jona]

yea but no one really cares about rest anyways

people dont like being knee'd or sheik slapped

or laserd either, big deal

wobbling is the only thing in debate...

so people should just accept that the majority of everybody hates it

 

[PEEF!]

As a TO, the thing about wobbling is

If I leave it on, I get complaints from a lot of people

If I ban it, the only person affected is Fly who is our regions only active IC player and he doesn't even complain.

Fly doesn't complain because he thinks it is of no use. Trust me, he thinks the banning of wobbling is a big big mistake.

I really recommend you try the great compromise in my sig. If you are one of the TO's that needs to appeal to the anti-wobbling masses (honestly I think it is a loud minority, something like the Tea Party), then the compromise will keep the game interesting without simply robbing the ICs of one of their best tools and leaving them handicapped.

There are a few details that I hadn't thought of including. First of all, PS should still be counterpickable vs the IC's under the compromise. The only ones that you can't take the IC's to are RC, Brinstar, and KJ. (You can go there if they want to though.) Also, the compromise only works if you start the first match with ICs, otherwise it could be abused in order to avoid stages with other characters that didn't give anything up.

 

[_lemons]

You can't just ban something perfectly legitimate because of majority rule.

Actually...

And how long is the Rest comparison going to go on? Sheesh.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Nintendude]

stabbedbyanipple, can you address the following posts? Nobody has really done so yet and as a TO I think you have to address this if you are banning wobbling.

1. This is a VERY important point that certainly has to be addressed by the anti-wobbling side. During an ICs chaingrab it is actually a good idea to throw in 1 or 2 f-tilts in between grabs because you can easily do it without knocking the opponent out of the grab and it's faster than blizzard is. Some people refer to this as "semi-wobbling." Can this be considered wobbling? How do you know if the opponent was supposed to break out due to mashing but couldn't because the IC f-tilts happened to be perfectly synched like for Wobbling? All rules in Smash except for stalling avoid ambiguities like this.

Summary:
If you are using f-tilts in your grabs to build up damage, similarly to using blizzard during a grab, when does it become wobbling or not?

What if you press A at like 190 bpm instead of 200 bpm? Then you aren't truly wobbling because the opponent has a few frames in between attacks where they can input grab breakout inputs. What if the opponent is still unable to break out before accumulating like 70% damage because the window is very small? Are you Wobbling now? Even though the opponent could escape technically?

What I am trying to illustrate here is that placing a ban on wobbling is banning something that people aren't able to clearly define.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I have no personal opinion on wobbling, those are just good points. They do make me want to sway to un-ban it but I would like to see how an actual pro-ban person replies to them because I feel I could be missing something here.