Wobbling Compromise

[Oracle]

Pro ban can't make any good arguments no offense to anyone who's pro ban but all of the points in the previous 39 pages were weak. It's not game breaking so just deal with it

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

well, they've had a few pages

and Scrubblader/blaster has yet to make any legitimate reasons why it should be banned. being "broken" is something determined by that character's performance in tournament is it not? If it's not dominant, then it isn't broken because it is beatable. Scrubblader even said so himself.

I'm also curious as to which anti-ban arguments make sense to you.

 

[Magus420]

Grab break inputs go through just fine while being wobbled with the exception of hitlag which functions as if it were a single frame. The instant you leave any opening in their stun they will break out if the counter has reached 0 (which shouldn't take them longer than 2-3 tilts before clearing it even when grabbed at high damage).

 

[smakis]

i secretly want wobbling banned because then i dont have to learn it lol

but seriously unban, not gamebreaking, just make matchups more even

 

[Roneblaster]

well, they've had a few pages

and Scrubblader/blaster has yet to make any legitimate reasons why it should be banned. being "broken" is something determined by that character's performance in tournament is it not? If it's not dominant, then it isn't broken because it is beatable. Scrubblader even said so himself.

I'm also curious as to which anti-ban arguments make sense to you.

all your arguments suck, because i still have one that you cant argue. maybe pocky can, but you cant. thats basically what you're saying about overcentralization.

why is it ok to have a legal unsurvivable unpunishable kill move? say it outloud. "unpunishable, unsurvivable" sounds like broken to me.

jiggs rest - punishable if you die off the side. punishable if she misses the rest.

sheiks d-throw, doesnt work on everyone, it was changed it pal.

shine - doesnt kill everywhere, isnt a kill move unless their near the edge. survivable even if hit with off the stage.

wobbling - cant punish if they kill you, cant punish if they miss up the wobble half way through. theres no DI reading, so its not a CG. atleast CG take some form of technical skill and comprehension.

i encourage you to take on this argument, because if you can, theres a chance that you might convince me wobbling shouldnt be banned. and even if you do i have the best devil's advocate card that even pocky would be proud of, so have fun kiddies.

 

[PEEF!]

all your arguments suck, because i still have one that you cant argue. maybe pocky can, but you cant. thats basically what you're saying about overcentralization.

why is it ok to have a legal unsurvivable unpunishable kill move? say it outloud. "unpunishable, unsurvivable" sounds like broken to me.

jiggs rest - punishable if you die off the side. punishable if she misses the rest.

sheiks d-throw, doesnt work on everyone, it was changed it pal.

shine - doesnt kill everywhere, isnt a kill move unless their near the edge. survivable even if hit with off the stage.

wobbling - cant punish if they kill you, cant punish if they miss up the wobble half way through. theres no DI reading, so its not a CG. atleast CG take some form of technical skill and comprehension.

i encourage you to take on this argument, because if you can, theres a chance that you might convince me wobbling shouldnt be banned. and even if you do i have the best devil's advocate card that even pocky would be proud of, so have fun kiddies.

Reneblade, you are twisting facts and ignoring others.

It doesn't work until 40%, so it isn't a "kill move" until 40%. (This means that it IS survivable.)

It also is punishable if the grab is missed. If ICs miss a grab, nana should be dead. Just watch Tink play an IC.

Rest also is unpunishable when you die off the side if it is the last stock of the game.

What you are doing is taking random things that sound bad, and throwing them together and acting as if they really mean something substantive. You take the fact that it is unsurvivable and unpunishable ONCE STARTED and act as if that means something.

I could say, Rest is broken because immediately after the hitbox, Jiggs becomes invincible for 26 (or however many) frames, and it has the most knockback of any 1 frame move. How is it okay to have a legal 1 frame move with massive knockback that immediately after the hitbox makes you invincible for a 26 frames?

What I just did was take some bad-sounding facts, threw them together, and make it seem as if I have met some standard of "broken-ness" when really I just made a hollow argument that chooses to ignore important information, just like yours. You might have proven that wobbling is the only unpunishable, inescapeable combo. Just like I proved that Rest is the only one-frame, massive knockback move that makes you invincible for 26 frames immediately afterwards. So? I haven't shown why any of that information actually means anything, and neither have you.

say it outloud. "unpunishable, unsurvivable" sounds like broken to me.

say it outloud. "one-frame, unsurvivable, invincible" sounds broken to me.

See?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

why is it ok to have a legal unsurvivable unpunishable kill move? say it outloud. "unpunishable, unsurvivable" sounds like broken to me.

why would an unsurvivable and unpunishable tactic be banworthy?

There is no good evidence that wobbling is broken in the current metagame.

 

[Roneblaster]

no you didnt though peef, the precedence is already there to ban a series of moves. wobbling is already banned. the freeze glitch is banned. mew2 soul stunner is banned. all series of moves. no1 move has been banned.

good moves happen peef, rest is one of those good moves. but its not bannable because it is punishable and survivable and no1 will ever set the precedence to ban single moves.

and super theory bros, rest is unpunishable last stock. wobbling is unpunishable in the same way 100% of the time. therefore wobbling is 4 times as broken.



fly- why wouldn't it be. no risk for the best possible reward.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

since when is wobbling "unpunishable"? to wobble you need to land grab, and grabs sure as hell arent unpunishable

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Your argument is that a tactic that can't be survived or punished is banworthy and that wobbling matches these criteria. I'm not interested in the latter aspect since I don't think the ban criterion is valid in the first place. The onus is on you to tell me why your ban criterion is legitimate.

 

[Oracle]

because it's not gamebreaking. That's the only reason you would ban a move, not because it's unpunishable.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

all your arguments suck, because i still have one that you cant argue. maybe pocky can, but you cant. thats basically what you're saying about overcentralization.

why is it ok to have a legal unsurvivable unpunishable kill move? say it outloud. "unpunishable, unsurvivable" sounds like broken to me.

jiggs rest - punishable if you die off the side. punishable if she misses the rest.

sheiks d-throw, doesnt work on everyone, it was changed it pal.

shine - doesnt kill everywhere, isnt a kill move unless their near the edge. survivable even if hit with off the stage.

wobbling - cant punish if they kill you, cant punish if they miss up the wobble half way through. theres no DI reading, so its not a CG. atleast CG take some form of technical skill and comprehension.

i encourage you to take on this argument, because if you can, theres a chance that you might convince me wobbling shouldnt be banned. and even if you do i have the best devil's advocate card that even pocky would be proud of, so have fun kiddies.

that's your punishment for getting grabbed while ICs are together

maybe it's not "ok" to your scrub mindset but it's completely fair because you made the mistake of getting grabbed when ICs are at their strongest.

Wobbling may be unpunishable AFTER the grab is executed, but the grab is perhaps one of the most avoidable things in the game, especially to characters like Fox, Falco, Puff, along with the rest of top/high tier, who dominate the metgame. Not only that, but missing a grab is punishable as ****, especially to ICs.

this is along with the fact that it's clearly NOT overcentralizing because top ICs still can't beat many other top players.

 

[Magus420]

It doesn't work until 40%, so it isn't a "kill move" until 40%.

If you do it right they have 12 frames to mash out before the headbutt hits. In that time frame it's near humanly impossible to frequently mash out above 20% or so, and for most people they won't be escaping above 10%. That's if they know the grab is coming well ahead of time though, so if they start mashing late it will work at 0%.

 

[Roneblaster]

fly, i dont have to convince you of anything. rom 3, p5 wobbling will be banned. and i just gave TOs a justification to ban wobbling until you can convince me or them otherwise.

mike, the act of wobbling(unescapable, unsurvivable grab) is unpunishable.

patrack, and your punishment for arguing with me will be a punch in the face when we meet. see how arbitrary and useless what you're contributing is?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

We've been over this before. It's your position's burden to justify your stance. If you can't do so, then you have no argument and no reason to be opposed to wobbling.

 

[Oracle]

If the move hits of course it's unpunishable! You can't punish Fox's upsmash or falcon's knee or shiek's d throw after it hits you. A punish is when you hit someone who whiffs, not hitting them while you're getting combo'd

 

[Roneblaster]

it doesnt matter what i tell you've ive already told you why i think it should be banned, you disagree. it doesnt matter because i will get what i believe @ 2 of the 3 biggest next national tournaments.

see, this is similar to what you're doing only im getting what i want, and you're stuck trying to convince some1 who will probably ultimately have no say.

you (mostly) cant punish hit moves (sometimes you can), thats not what im saying. im saying that flubbed moves can be punished. but failed wobbles cant be punished. a failed grabbed is punishable anytime, so thats not wobbling specific.
but a mis-timed a button from the IC player is not punishable.

off to work. work on my real post and quit theorying me peef and others, cause ill theory right back.
fly- why does this only work one way? i have to justify it to you? no i dont. you have to justify it to alu and plank.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, punish for making a mistake in a combo, people can punish you for taking too long in your links for example, but if something is punishable on hit... why are you using it?

 

[Roneblaster]

why are we even playing this game then bro?

bye for real this time

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I'm almost 100% certain you're just ****ing with us now.

who're you to talk anyways? you prefer watered-down kiddy smash and we like playing melee. we're not even playing the same game bro.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

fly- why does this only work one way? i have to justify it to you? no i dont. you have to justify it to alu and plank.

Let me refresh your memory.

The point is that wobbling-legal should be considered the status quo; note that rulesets focus almost exclusively on what should not be allowed rather than what should (with the assumption that everything in the game should be legal unless deemed unfit)... if you start with the assumption that X tactic is banned, there's no real way to justify unbanning it since 'it's already banned and everything's fine'

what he means is that the burden of proof is on the people who want it banned

if there are zero arguments on both sides, status quo (wobbling isn't banned) should hold, so he feels that his job is only to make counterpoints; if you make no points, he can make no counterpoints

but yes, you'll usually find that most 'pro-wobbling' players will end up saying the exact same thing since it's a very coherent, unified perspective, whereas the pro-ban crowd has a more fractured basis behind their arguments (incidentally, which almost all revolve around the technique being 'unique' rather than it being 'broken')

 

[PEEF!]

no you didnt though peef, the precedence is already there to ban a series of moves. wobbling is already banned. the freeze glitch is banned. mew2 soul stunner is banned. all series of moves. no1 move has been banned.

good moves happen peef, rest is one of those good moves. but its not bannable because it is punishable and survivable and no1 will ever set the precedence to ban single moves.

and super theory bros, rest is unpunishable last stock. wobbling is unpunishable in the same way 100% of the time. therefore wobbling is 4 times as broken.



fly- why wouldn't it be. no risk for the best possible reward.

You are continuing to attach yourself to happenstances that you then elevate to ban criteria. You make your criteria unpunishable and unsurvivable. Let me begin by showing you that both of these assumptions are fallacious.

If wobbling was truly unpunishable, then nobody could lose by simply spamming "wobble". After all, it is unpunishable. No, what you mean is that in certain situations (nana and popo both alive and synced, etc.) in certain areas (not near the edge of dreamland with the wind blowing, etc) after the prerequisite move has been landed (grab) at certain damages (60+) the series of moves is unpunishable.

The same underlying assumptions weaken your argument for wobbling being unsurvivable. A lengthy series of things has to happen in order for the wobble to be unsurvivable (nana alive, synced, grab landed, 60+damage, has to end in a smash, etc)

Now let me show you how easy it is to prove that any move is unsurvivable and unpunishable if we were to allow your definitions to stand.

FALCO'S DOWNAIR AS UNSURVIVABLE AND UNPUNISHABLE.

In certain situations (vs Fox or Falco) in certain areas (opponent slightly above and off the stage, out of tech range), after the prerequisite moves have been landed (shine) at certain damages (80%) the downair is unpunishable and unsurvivable.

Any move can be "unsurvivable and unpunishable" given the right underlying assumptions. However, a truly unpunishable and unsurvivable move does not exist in the game.

The worst part is even if wobbling was "unsurvivable and unpunishable" in all circumstances, (which it certainly is not) you have not even begun to explain why that is proper criterion for banning the series of moves. Don't worry about doing that though, because it isn't the case that it is unsurvivable and unpunishable. Instead, you need to find something that wobbling actually IS, THEN you can try to show how that is a broken criterion.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

mike, the act of wobbling(unescapable, unsurvivable grab) is unpunishable

you could say the same thing for a ton of cgs and other combos in this game
you still need to land a grab hence it is not unpunishable

you are a stupid scrub thats all there is to it

 

[_lemons]

double post

 

[_lemons]

@Fly, although I agree that the burden of proof should lie with the pro-ban camp, since it's already banned, it is kind of up to the anti-ban camp to convince TOs, isn't it?

Rofl, I'm dumb, just saw your post up there. Can't say I disagree.

 

[Strong Badam]

there is no compromise to be had here.
wobbling isn't ban worthy and no compromise is necessary
man the **** up
no one wobbles past ~200% anyway, so the stalling argument is INVALID

everyone shut up.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

@Fly, although I agree that the burden of proof should lie with the pro-ban camp, since it's already banned, it is kind of up to the anti-ban camp to convince TOs, isn't it?

Yes, that is the case. I'm solely interested in discussing whether wobbling should be banned in principle, which is something I probably should have clarified earlier.

 

[CloneHat]

This argument has been going on far too long. I respect both sides, but much of the anti-wobbling argument has been why wobbling is "unfair" or "dishonourable". In short, what is "wrong" with the tactic. It has little to do with how wobbling is detrimental to the competitive game of Melee.

I think the biggest problem with wobbling is that it is an unpopular strategy, similar to camping, for instance. While camping is impossible to classify directly, and therefore ban without drastically affecting the metagame, wobbling is as easy to isolate as a move is. Wobbling was therefore quickly and easily banned from tournaments, and is backed by the emotion-driven opinions of the community. The problem is that nobody is going to want to displease large amounts people when the change affects only a small amount of people and is vehemently disagreed with by so many.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Strong_Bad

 

[Nintendude]

I've already brought up the point about 5 times that you can't clearly define wobbling.

 

[_lemons]

Yes, that is the case. I'm solely interested in discussing whether wobbling should be banned in principle, which is something I probably should have clarified earlier.

Ha, you must be pretty bored, I don't think I've seen a legitimate reason for banning Wobbling, at least based on any of the usual criterion for banning things.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I think that's the whole problem

it's already banned when it shouldn't be

in that, I suppose rone-whatever is correct.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I think that's the whole problem

it's already banned when it shouldn't be

in that, I suppose rone-whatever is correct.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

We could start discussing how to go about convincing people to unban wobbling. This is largely a matter of politics, though, and I currently don't have any good ideas about how to do this.

 

[ChivalRuse]

MBR would have to legalize it officially. Even then, I doubt most TOs would be eager to allow wobbling (i.e., they probably would still ban it).

 

[Let It Riot]

I think people should try out the compromise in the original post, that sounds like it would at least give people a taste of it.

 

[john!]

i think this thread itself is good evidence that wobbling should be unbanned. some of the more open-minded to's will start to not include a wobbling ban as time goes on. once the world doesn't explode, more to's will do it too. apparently stabbed is lifting the wobbling ban because of this thread.

 

[Pr0jecT]

I just wanna know how many players here play IC's OFTEN that can Wobble/chaingrab with ease on command.

I talked to UberIce about this the other day and he said "Wobbling should be banned, and so should rest."

IC main saying wobbling should be banned. lol


edit: also, MBR is a complete joke, they shouldn't have to "legalize" ****. The fact theres a supeduper secret club for superduper good players to discuss superduper secret things that affect the entire community is pretty much ********.

 

[CloneHat]

There's not much we're able to do in this situation. It would be nice if TOs could start including Wobbling with a brief summery of why it isn't banned.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i don't use ice climbers in any sense of the word
and i don't think wobbling should be banned

 

[Dark Sonic]

I talked to UberIce about this the other day and he said "Wobbling should be banned, and so should rest."

Uh...sounds to me like he hasn't given this much thought.

The fact theres a supeduper secret club for superduper good players to discuss superduper secret things that affect the entire community is pretty much ********.

Well, considering that the vast majority of posters on the forums are ********....I'm not really surprised.

Let's not forget that TOs never HAVE to follow the decisions of the MBR. Their "power" (people listening to their rules) only comes from their general credibility.