Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
me too. sup Wrights
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Wobbling Compromise
- Thread starter Ballistics
- Start date
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
****in ****. Cosmo is in! M2=Zelda lol
Just a joke, dont get it twisted lol
I see you're still a useless spammer
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
From time to time. In retrospect your post was no more informative than mine.I see you're still a useless spammer
I think it was worthless spammer tho. dont remember.
this thread really just needs to close, or change the title to convince reneblade wobbling is ok.
Wo1f
Smash Apprentice
You can get hit with rest at low percents and live. You're basically dead if grabbed at 0%.
You can shake out before they begin to wobble you if you get grabbed at 0%
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Magus said humanly possible to like 20 percent I think but thats like only if you are a promasher. Like 10% on avg.
Whaat. I start my wobbles pretty freakin fast and I have had Zhu mash out at 40+.
EDIT: I love how "PEEF doing okay" at POE3 has become a talking point against wobbling. My playstyle is punish spacing + get grabs. That means that most all of my kills will be through grabs. Talk to Kirkq who was convinced that it would make little-to-no difference whether I wobbled or not because my grab game was solid enough anyway.
EDIT: I love how "PEEF doing okay" at POE3 has become a talking point against wobbling. My playstyle is punish spacing + get grabs. That means that most all of my kills will be through grabs. Talk to Kirkq who was convinced that it would make little-to-no difference whether I wobbled or not because my grab game was solid enough anyway.
pockyD
Smash Legend
the MBR is more like a think tank than a governing body
people are chosen for admission based on their ability to come up with, process, develop, and respond to ideas
at the same time, it does not hold any real power; as has already been mentioned, the only 'power' it holds is by the respect it commands based on the thought that goes into its recommendations
should it be transparent? I personally think yes, for the most part (there are certain parts, such as member nomination, that should definitely remain private because people will cry about getting their feelings hurt). at the same time, a large reason it isn't transparent is to maintain the front of unity that is established when the mbr DOES come up with a recommendation; refuted arguments that stay visible do nothing but distract from the ultimate conclusion
but frankly, there's not consistent activity in there anyway; it tends to come and go in waves
anyway it's fairly obvious you don't care because you clearly didn't put any thought into your post
people are chosen for admission based on their ability to come up with, process, develop, and respond to ideas
at the same time, it does not hold any real power; as has already been mentioned, the only 'power' it holds is by the respect it commands based on the thought that goes into its recommendations
should it be transparent? I personally think yes, for the most part (there are certain parts, such as member nomination, that should definitely remain private because people will cry about getting their feelings hurt). at the same time, a large reason it isn't transparent is to maintain the front of unity that is established when the mbr DOES come up with a recommendation; refuted arguments that stay visible do nothing but distract from the ultimate conclusion
but frankly, there's not consistent activity in there anyway; it tends to come and go in waves
Why does the ability to consistently land synced grabs and utilize wobbling 8 stocks a set not count as "skill" to you?
anyway it's fairly obvious you don't care because you clearly didn't put any thought into your post
question:
would people be against grab infinites if a really horrid character like ness, yoshi, or pichu had one?
would people be against grab infinites if a really horrid character like ness, yoshi, or pichu had one?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i think they would
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
I think the reason people are so against Wobbling is because in Smash, you always have an option to DO something when you're getting hit to prevent further hits or lessen the damage. When you are wobbled, you have nothing you can possibly do to escape and you are at the mercy of the ICs player 100%. Smash isn't that type of game, so the players see it as a problem because it's not commonplace.
Look at MvC2, they get infinited all day and night and they don't care, because once you get hit in that game you lose control until the end of the combo or the other person messes up. There is no DI or teching to help get away, you just get ragdolled around.
Look at MvC2, they get infinited all day and night and they don't care, because once you get hit in that game you lose control until the end of the combo or the other person messes up. There is no DI or teching to help get away, you just get ragdolled around.
kirkq
Smash Ace
Man, PEEF is inviting me to talk about him. Nothing makes my day brighter.
Clarifications: I didn't get here by namesearching. **** namesearching.
Be it 5 hits or 5 seconds, the concept of a 'wobbling limit' is not good for competitive play. This is a competitive community, and people want a numerical limit on how annoyingly you should play? Let's go play brawl, as was stated. It is really hard to monitor and enforce a rule like this. I hit him 6 times, I wobbled him 6 seconds. People would just push the limit, and this would only cause issues at tournaments. Basically, (at an extreme) a reputable witness would need to be available to spectate every match an ice climbers player played in.
A ruleset compromise for local use might be okay, but I'd never trade the ability to counterpick ice climbers for a free win. I'm also always a promoter of the Gentleman's Rule where two players can agree to stake the set however the **** they want (giving respect to time constraints).
I actually think this just applies to ice climbers' grab game as a whole. Some kid who has never been to a tournament could sit at home and practice wavedashing around and killing the computer out of a grab every time and apply the same thing at a tournament. It absolutely sucks, but that's how it works. This is not true with any other character. You'd just get wrecked spamming consistent tech skill.
From my experiences everyone sucks at fighting against ice climbers these days. I find it obscenely dangerous to risk an approach. I play my falco against ice climbers only from the top platform. My tech is really inconsistent, and they may still only get one grab per set. There isn't **** ice climbers can do to get an advantage over falco while he is dancing around on platforms. Sure it's really annoying, but so is getting grabbed by ice climbers. I consider this a 'fair' game to play. Most members of the community are determined to approach the opponent. I think if you are risking getting grabbed against a character bent on getting a grab, then you are playing the matchup suboptimally. If we are discussing the "highest level of play", then please don't include your preferences to handicap yourself by not playing as annoyingly and conservative as possible.
As I've stated before, even with wobbling and even with broken grabs fox, falco, and marth are vastly superior to ice climbers in every way. I can't see how the community wants to ban something that makes a high tier character slightly more viable.
You're all just upset that mediocre mid level ice climbers players are beating you. Go practice mashing out of grabs and camping.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I just think people need to stop whining and learn how to space. Maybe learn to play someone that counterpicks IC's or something.
Magus420
Smash Master
As a somewhat proficient masher myself I was interested in finding out more about escaping. Here's some stuff:
When hit by an attack that does less than 6.00% you go into CaptureDamage which is 20 frames long + added frames from hitlag. You can only break if you are able to finish CaptureDamage and go into CaptureWait. Fresh headbutt and f-tilt (on someone in a grab) add 3 frames of hitlag while d-tilt adds 2. When staled the headbutt and tilt may add 1 less frame of hitlag depending on how stale it is.
If you headbutt immediately after landing the grab they have 12 frames for inputs to mash out before the headbutt hits/CaptureDamage starts. Any inputs after those 12 won't matter unless they leave CaptureDamage.
To maintain the CaptureDamage lock after an immediate headbutt, Nana's tilt needs to hit on the 36th frame or earlier within the grab hold. To do that you can input an f-tilt on 25 or earlier if within close range, otherwise frame 24 or sooner if full range is needed to reach (it hits up close before the hammer extends). D-tilt needs to be input on 23 or earlier since it's slightly slower.
Nana's standing grab lag normally prevents inputting the tilt until frame 23, so with an immediate headbutt the f-tilt can be input on 23-25 and d-tilt can only be done on 23. If the headbutt is delayed 1 frame they have 13 frames for escape inputs, f-tilt can be input 23-26, and d-tilt 23-24. If delayed 2 frames they have 14 to escape, f-tilt 23-27, d-tilt 23-25, etc. On that note, to me it seems like f-tilt wobble is superior to d-tilt in almost every way. More damage (fewer reps), more hitlag (locks longer so more room for error), comes out faster (easier to get started faster from grab), and IASA is 1 frame sooner (closer to grab attack's duration). D-tilt has slightly more horizontal range though.
With absolute frame perfect mashing, an immediate headbutt (12 frames to mash out) into wobble is escapable until they get to 61%+. To put that ridiculous mashing speed into perspective, it's not possible to get even 2 grab attacks in until they are 251%+ (they break out before the 2nd one hits).
Now against actual humans, I'd estimate that an immediate headbutt into wobble shouldn't be mashable starting around 25%+ with the very very best players at mashing and them also having enough forewarning that they are going to get grabbed so that they are already at "top speed" as the grab connects. Against normal people it would probably be more like 15%+ with full warning. If they didn't expect to get grabbed at the time or realize it a bit late and start mashing after the grab connects it would most likely work on anyone at or close to 0%+.
Actually, I think I was slightly overestimating how fast it's possible to mash out. I did some testing of how fast I could mash out at those percents. You only have 12 to mash if you start right away.
Magus' High Scores
15% ... Best: 11 frames; Average: ~16
25% ... Best: 17 frames; Average: ~20
My second best at 15% was 13, so I was only able to pull it off in 12 or fewer frames once out of about a dozen or so tries. It's probably more like 18-20% or so for the very best players, and around 8-10% for most people. Almost definitely at 0% regardless of the player if they start a bit late.
If Taj is escaping in the 20%+ range with any amount of consistency let alone until late into his stock I'm quite sure that's due to waiting a bit before getting it started than him being a robot.
Magus' High Scores
15% ... Best: 11 frames; Average: ~16
25% ... Best: 17 frames; Average: ~20
My second best at 15% was 13, so I was only able to pull it off in 12 or fewer frames once out of about a dozen or so tries. It's probably more like 18-20% or so for the very best players, and around 8-10% for most people. Almost definitely at 0% regardless of the player if they start a bit late.
If Taj is escaping in the 20%+ range with any amount of consistency let alone until late into his stock I'm quite sure that's due to waiting a bit before getting it started than him being a robot.
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
Like Magus said, you can mash out. You can also yell really loudly and disrupt them.
@Magus: What's the best way to mash out? Just press all the buttons? Turn both sticks 360 degrees over and over while pressing whatever other buttons you can? etc. And yeah, I agree that people don't mash out enough. At a grab at 0% with some of my friends, I can usually get a hit or two in (non-ICs) and then successfully throw them. That shouldn't be happening, lol. I mean, a quick throw is always good since you can catch them off-guard and they might not DI, but extra % is always good.
Winston
Smash Master
Magus just said that you can't really mash out if they do it properly. Haha
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
no he didn't. he said if you are god tier at mashing probably 18-20 avg joe 8-10.
you need to be prepared for it though.
that also is if the wobbler is doing it perfectly as well. if wobbles is getting mashed out at decent percent then its worth a try.
getting out is somewhat reasonable.
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
worst thread ever imo
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'm not sure why you are calling me out all of a sudden (I read the other thread too) when I haven't been pointing fingers. I asked specifically for that guy's opinion because I wanted a TO's opinion on the matter. Back off.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's next to impossible to mash out of a chain grab -> wobble, even if you are prepared for it.
Rain(ame)
Smash Champion
My stand: Let 'em go, lol.
I personally don't care, but the comparisons being made to Jiggs and Fox irked me. Wobble if you want. (put me down for I don't care? or Pro....lol)
I play Peach so I say this: "Screw the rules, I have Dsmash!!"
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Get grabbed above 40% and you're screwed, enough said.
1 or 2 seconds of wobbling exists...then they usually end it with ice breath, or Dthrow -> Dair, or something to that effect. Things that most people can't escape from, anyway. It's not just about proper spacing, because an ICs player of good enough skill will get the grab in, anyway.
The Jiggs argument is invalid:
Also...messing up a Rest does NOT equal messing up a wobble, because you can still actually throw before they can manage to mash out. Jiggs missing a rest can = Death. Also, I've survived rest twice on one stock. DI FTW. Also survived Uthrow -> Rest with Fox.....so yeah....and Jiggs still is amazing without Rest. Also, rest requires set-up, spacing, and can be shielded.
The Fox argument:
As much as I hate Fox, the Shine can be shielded, dodged, and punished for being messed up. (Chaingrabs, yay!!!!)
I personally don't care, but the comparisons being made to Jiggs and Fox irked me. Wobble if you want. (put me down for I don't care? or Pro....lol)
I play Peach so I say this: "Screw the rules, I have Dsmash!!"
--------------------------------
Get grabbed above 40% and you're screwed, enough said.
1 or 2 seconds of wobbling exists...then they usually end it with ice breath, or Dthrow -> Dair, or something to that effect. Things that most people can't escape from, anyway. It's not just about proper spacing, because an ICs player of good enough skill will get the grab in, anyway.
The Jiggs argument is invalid:
Also...messing up a Rest does NOT equal messing up a wobble, because you can still actually throw before they can manage to mash out. Jiggs missing a rest can = Death. Also, I've survived rest twice on one stock. DI FTW. Also survived Uthrow -> Rest with Fox.....so yeah....and Jiggs still is amazing without Rest. Also, rest requires set-up, spacing, and can be shielded.
The Fox argument:
As much as I hate Fox, the Shine can be shielded, dodged, and punished for being messed up. (Chaingrabs, yay!!!!)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
And grabs can be dodged and punished for messing up (YAY NANA's terrible AI!)
See, I can point out flaws in very powerful techniques too
See, I can point out flaws in very powerful techniques too
kirkq
Smash Ace
(removed in the interest of keeping the thread on topic.)
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
im kirkq yes im the real kirkq all you other kirkqs are just imitators
so wont the real kirkq please stand up
please stand up
please stand up
so wont the real kirkq please stand up
please stand up
please stand up
john!
Smash Hero
I have the most idiotic Nana in the entire world. She will stand there over the edge as I try to ledgehog Falcon, and he'll just yesz her over and over and eventually recover for free. She will also stand at the edge of the stage when I'm recovering, and get Falcon Punched without moving a muscle, and die. She is, for all intents and purposes, a ragdoll. I never wobble because I know that she will **** it up, somehow.
Mokumo
Smash Ace
you can always just pause a few times to get out of wobbling.
works like a charm
works like a charm
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
My Nana can be pro sometimes. She d-smash'd once early in a game before I even inputted any kind of downward direction, lol. And it hit the dude.
D
Deleted member
Guest
umbreons an idiot LOL
Rain(ame)
Smash Champion
However, it's no different from anybody else's grab. We all know the penalty of messing up a grab. It seems, however, that comparing them to moves that can be SHIELDED and DI'ed is a bit out of place. *shrugs* doesn't matter, though. I'm just pointing out something which kind irked me. Comparing a grab to a physical attack is off to me.And grabs can be dodged and punished for messing up (YAY NANA's terrible AI!)
See, I can point out flaws in very powerful techniques too
Besides....I already said I didn't care. Give them their Wobbling. *shrugs*
Ballistics
Smash Champion
OK I think every kind of opinion has been heard, what I'd like everyone to do is post their final opinion if your still subscribed and your opinion has changed or if you just want to add your final thought, and then somebody close this thing.
I started as wanting a compromise but now I see its just ridiculous. No ban.
I started as wanting a compromise but now I see its just ridiculous. No ban.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
Ok, my final thoughts:
Peef, your great compromise is too complicated and unenforceable. There shouldn't be any character specific rules to promote fairness. It's too complicated for new players to understand the game. The tilt limit is a bad idea because it's easy to unnoticeably to go beyond the tilt limit by a limited amount. The counter pick idea removes the counter pick game for the opposing player, which would be unfair. If Rainbow cruise is too terrible of a stage for them, just ban Rainbow cruise in the tournament rules. It's not much of a stage for fighting as it is an obstacle course to play tag on. Ice Climbers have difficulty on Brinstar when split, and as certain characters, splitting Brinstar is easy. Ice Climbers can easily ban it. What's their next biggest fear? I honestly don't know because the other counter pick stages don't seem to have anything that hurts Ice Climbers much at all. Except Jungle Japes, which should stay banned. Move the legality of that stage discussion to a different topic.
pro-wobblers, you're legit, and you have common sense. Ice Climbers aren't top tier, Ice Climbers with wobbling aren't top tier, Ice Climbers with wobbling aren't a problem if stalling can easily be solved. You are also smart enough to realize that getting a grab with Nana alive and next to you isn't always easy to set up which limits/prevents its brokenness, thus balancing out how good wobbling practically is.
Everyone including anti-wobblers, accept the way things are in Melee. Wobbling is a part of Ice Climbers that they need to compete closer to a higher level. Do you really want Melee to be reduced to Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon, or is promoting better character balance the better path? Seeing and playing the same stuff repetitively will get stale fast. Also, do you want someone else to prevent/limit your success at this game? The non-wobble Ice Climber chain grabs are really difficult to learn and are very escapable when the slightest mistakes are made. We should be encouraging players to play this game their way and we shouldn't be insulting anyone for not looking cool while they're winning or even just playing the game. If we do that, we're killing our own community. Even though we're already slowly dying.
So yeah, Wobbling should be legal until 200%.
john!
Smash Hero
DGG
P2W
/thread
edit: ok to clarify... there are no sufficient reasons to nerf a character that isn't even among the top 5 in the game. when a new technique arises, it is up to the one who want it banned to provide an adequate, objective reason why it should not be allowed. such a reason has not been provided. not only is wobbling already unbanned by the mbr, but unbanning it in tournament will contribute to character balance by making a decent character a bit better. wobbling is neither overpowered nor inherently unfair; the common practice of banning it at tourneys has only persisted for so long due to the lack of ic players. hopefully this thread has exposed the anti-wobbling stance's lack of substance, and future to's will consider removing their bans on wobbling in the interest of openness and fairness.
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
I think wobbling being a legal technique would be interesting for the metagame, and to promote more diversity and skill within the community, is good for us as a community.
Я думаю, что вобблинг в качестве юридической техники бы интересно для Метагейм)), и содействовать более разнообразия и навыков в рамках общины, это хорошо)))
pockyD
Smash Legend
why?
the subject isn't a poll; what any individual thinks doesn't really matter unless they have some solid reasoning behind it